Romans 9, how do we know who is to be destroyed

Daniel Marsh said:

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?” 20 But who indeed are you—a mere human being—to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

If God made one to sin, how can God then condemn them to destruction?

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Read Jeremiah, chapter 18. I think this shows that the subject in Romans 9 is not about individuals being destroyed, rather it is about God raising up and using nations through history for His purposes and the focus is especially on the nation of Israel.

The context of Romans 9 is the nation of Israel. I understand that passage as saying the nation itself was being molded by God for his purposes.

Daniel Marsh said:

If God made one to sin, how can God then condemn them to destruction?

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I also understand this as class predestination. This also explains later when he says that "all Israel" will be saved. The nation as a whole will come to Christ, but he does not mean every individual.

God cannot make people to sin. That would contradict His nature. What He does do, according to passages such as Rom 1, is give them up to the consequences of their choices.

If God made one to sin, how can God then condemn them to destruction?

God does not make one to sin.
God makes people who are born and they have an evil nature due to the fall of Adam and Eve where mankind followed Satan and not the Creator and so then do all of Adam's race follow Satan, read Ephesians 2.
The fall in the garden is predisposing all mankind to do sinful things, and all men sin.
God gives people over to their sinfulness, unless He chooses to show to them His mercy.

Why did you make me this way? God remakes a man in Christ to be born again, that is His right to choose to whom He will show mercy and whom He will harden in their sinfulness.

Some receive mercy from God to know the truth and be saved, and others do not.

Christ must WILL for you to know them and be saved. Or you will remain an unbeliever in Him.
Since obviously not all know the LORD Jesus as the Christ of God, then Christ has not willed for them to know Him. Is this not His right to do with all sinners as He pleases?
Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

Isaiah 46

8 “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.

ByTheSpirit said:

The context of Romans 9 is the nation of Israel. I understand that passage as saying the nation itself was being molded by God for his purposes.

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I think it goes beyond the nation of Israel.
It shows salvation is Gods choice for Gods own purpose.

-57 said:

I think it goes beyond the nation of Israel.
It shows salvation is Gods choice for Gods own purpose.

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Yes and God chooses all for salvation, but not all will be saved.

Calvinism, or rather the doctrine of predestination, is a bit absurd.

ByTheSpirit said:

Yes and God chooses all for salvation, but not all will be saved.

Calvinism, or rather the doctrine of predestination, is a bit absurd.

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I think you thinking you choose Christ is a lot more than a bit absurd.

.....what made you so special that you figured it all out....while others didn't?

-57 said:

I think you thinking you choose Christ is a lot more than a bit absurd.

.....what made you so special that you figured it all out....while others didn't?

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You see it is fun to throw accusations at people apparently, but let's examine the facts here.

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

ByTheSpirit said:

You see it is fun to throw accusations at people apparently, but let's examine the facts here.

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

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If you want to compare verses, those which reveal ordained nature of our lives far outweight those that seem to describe free will nature of our lives. Whole Bible is about God working His plan.

If one is picking verses that are in minority against those in majority, one is denying what God has revealed as message that carries the weight. At the same time, there are many issues with seeming contradictions in the Bible, including this one, with verses that seem to clash with each other. But, seeming contradictions are understood when we understand what the main message is.

HenryM said:

If you want to compare verses, those which reveal ordained nature of our lives far outweight those that seem to describe free will nature of our lives. Whole Bible is about God working His plan.

If one is picking verses that are in minority against those in majority, one is denying what God has revealed as message that carries the weight. At the same time, there are many issues with seeming contradictions in the Bible, including this one, with verses that seem to clash with each other. But, seeming contradictions are understood when we understand what the main message is.

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Your point should be taken by all. In the following verse desire is looked at in one way only by some. Desire = Gods decree. The biblical versions as seen at bible hub use several translations. Wants, desires, will have, wills, would have, willeth, is willing.....

So what level is God on here? I know some Universalist use this verse to show al humans will get saved....but that requires a reason to dismiss the other nuances of the word....thelo.


1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I am well aware that taking singular verses out of context is a big no no so let's look at those PASSAGES...

“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

God wants us to pray for all people, even government leadership, so that they may be saved! Check

“But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8-10‬ ‭ESV‬

Peter is talking about the return of the Lord and the need to wait on that particular promise because God is being patient with humanity. Why is he being patient you ask? Let me tell you. Because he wants all to come to repentance, instead of perishing. Sounds a lot like John 3:16-17

Thanks for playing

ByTheSpirit said:

I am well aware that taking singular verses out of context is a big no no so let's look at those PASSAGES...

“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

God wants us to pray for all people, even government leadership, so that they may be saved! Check

“But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8-10‬ ‭ESV‬

Peter is talking about the return of the Lord and the need to wait on that particular promise because God is being patient with humanity. Why is he being patient you ask? Let me tell you. Because he wants all to come to repentance, instead of perishing. Sounds a lot like John 3:16-17

Thanks for playing

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I have to think, God being God....always gets His decree. In this case you would say Gods decree is that every single person who has lived or will live will be saved...

If that be the case then why will some people perish...John 3:16?

Apparently salvation for ALL people isn't a decree. If it was a decree then why does the Bible show people being thrown into the lake of fire?

Daniel Marsh said:

If God made one to sin, how can God then condemn them to destruction?

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God does whatever He Pleases.

He even published His Word in a way that is unclear to most of mankind, or anyway they mostly reject it,
and even add their own ideas to it in error (like unicorns).

Nothing escapes His Notice, and He has a judgment for all who reject Him, and for all who change , add to, or take away from His Word.

-57 said:

I have to think, God being God....always gets His decree. In this case you would say Gods decree is that every single person who has lived or will live will be saved...

If that be the case then why will some people perish...John 3:16?

Apparently salvation for ALL people isn't a decree. If it was a decree then why does the Bible show people being thrown into the lake of fire?

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You are misunderstanding me. I am in no way a universalist, but scriptures plainly state God desires all people to be saved. So what is the hold up?

People still have to believe. That is why most will fall by the wayside.

God doesn't always get what he wants. That is ridiculous. Every single command God gave mankind is a desire he has for us as his creation and he obviously didn't get his way on that.

ByTheSpirit said:

I am well aware that taking singular verses out of context is a big no no so let's look at those PASSAGES...

“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

God wants us to pray for all people, even government leadership, so that they may be saved! Check

“But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8-10‬ ‭ESV‬

Peter is talking about the return of the Lord and the need to wait on that particular promise because God is being patient with humanity. Why is he being patient you ask? Let me tell you. Because he wants all to come to repentance, instead of perishing. Sounds a lot like John 3:16-17

Thanks for playing

Click to expand...

'Peter is talking about the return of the Lord and the need to wait on that particular promise because God is being patient with humanity.'

Nope not about all humanity, the verse absolutely does not say that now does it.

Peter is speaking to the beloved of God, those to whom he is writing this letter, those who are elect to be saved, not the whole world. that will include those who have not yet believed, but whom God has foreknown as His people, who are then elect before their birth, both natural and spiritual.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any (of you) should perish, but that all (of you) should reach repentance.

ByTheSpirit said:

scriptures plainly state God desires all people to be saved. So what is the hold up?

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Amein. Even His Own People Rejected Him.

Today? The LIGHT came into the world, to save people, and the people LOVED the darkness !!!!!!!!!
(instead of the LIGHT)

Peter is writing to the beloved, not the world. So when Peter says 'you' he means not the lost world, but the lost sheep of Christ who are elect to be saved. He is not willing that any of God's elect be lost, Christ loses not a single one of all those the Father has given to Him.
That includes those who know Him and those who will know Him in the future and be saved.
Peter says God is longsuffering TOWARDS US, His beloved Elect.

2 Peter 3New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Promise Is Not Slack
3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

That would be all of US elect that HE is longsuffering towards. Peter writes His letters to the beloved elect who have been chosen by God to be sanctified by the Spirit, to be made obedient to Christ, and sprinkled with His blood.

Why would God be long suffering towards those He knows will never repent and believe? This promise is only for the sheep of Christ who are His beloved very own elect.

sdowney717 said:

'Peter is talking about the return of the Lord and the need to wait on that particular promise because God is being patient with humanity.'

Nope not about all humanity, the verse absolutely does not say that now does it.

Peter is speaking to the beloved of God, those to whom he is writing this letter, those who are elect to be saved, not the whole world. that will include those who have not yet believed, but whom God has foreknown as His people, who are then elect before their birth, both natural and spiritual.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any (of you) should perish, but that all (of you) should reach repentance.

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If that helps you sleep better at night...

“knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Peter is making an argument against those who in the last days would scoff at the idea of Christ's coming by saying nothing has ever changed and perhaps he had forgotten.

Then that is when he says 1 day is as 1,000 years to the LORD. Because God has no concept of time, he is not obligated to do things on our timeline.

He is delaying the return of Christ because he wants ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE. So that none should perish because God wants no one to perish! Ezekiel 18:32. Believers are already in a state of repentance. There is no chance this verse or even passage is speaking of those in Christ already.

Really people, we need to start reading entire contexts before we just lob holy hand grenades at people with no idea what we are talking about.

" Romans 9, how do we know who is to be destroyed "

Most all the people of the world are to be destroyed,
and
most all the people of the world don't care, and/or
most all the people of the world don't know. (they cannot know)