Avoiding the Mark of the beast

Major1 said:

I am not able to accept that idea.

2 Thess. 2:4.....
"who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The Greek word you refer to....naos does not require some large Solomaic-like structure. Instead, it can refer to a small tent-like structure or inner sanctuary.

The Tabernacle was in fact a tent that was put up and taken down as the Jews moved.

As a Historicists, and it seems to me probably a Preterist, you must understand that at the end of the day you are required import a foreign meaning into 2 Thess 2:4 to maintain the figurative-church interpretation of naos.

Just so that you will understand my position and why I say the things I say, allow me to tell you that I believe when all the Biblical prophecies are taken as a whole, they cannot be spiritualized away. I am just not smart enough to explain away the literal written words of the Scriptures. To me, they are what they are and do not require my explanation of them or in any way to make them fit what I think.

To me, when the Bible speaks of a wicked man entering into the Temple, I take that to mean that a third Temple will be rebuilt and the Antichrist will enter into it.

When Paul writes about the followers of Jesus Christ being snatched off the earth I take it literally.

When the Bible says that there is a place were the lost of all ages will be tormented forever, I take that literally and I believe that there is just such a place just as well as there is a Heaven where the saved of all the ages will be blessed and stay eternally.

When the Bible says that Jesus walked on water, I take that to mean that He put His feet on WET liquid, water and He did not sink.

When Jesus and the prophet Daniel say that one day the world is going to experience a time of trouble unlike any other time in history, I believe it is going to happen (Matthew 24:15-21; Daniel 12:1-3).

Was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. unlike any other time in history? No, the Jews had a similar experience almost seven hundred years earlier when the Babylonians besieged Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. I believe that just as Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies concerning a suffering Messiah, so too will He fulfill the Old and New Testament prophecies concerning a conquering and victorious Messiah.

May the Lord bless you and help your understanding my friend and if you do not think like I do, that is OK as well.

Click to expand...

I sincerely appreciate your candor.

I think you may have missed my point, though.

Major1 said:

The Greek word you refer to....naos does not require some large Solomaic-like structure. Instead, it can refer to a small tent-like structure or inner sanctuary.

Click to expand...

My point is that naos as Paul uses it in his epistles is not a physical structure of any type, but a spiritual one, in this case, the Church.

That is how the Reformers, with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, understood it. Calvin's notes on 2 Thess. 2:4 in his Geneva Study Bible assert:

"He foretelleth that Antichrist, (that is, whosoever he be that shall occupy that seat that falleth away from God) shall not reign without the Church, but in the very bosom of the Church."

Regarding prophetic interpretation, there is no doubt that scores of prophecies are literal, and I understand and believe them as such. But scores are spiritual and symbolic as well, which I'm sure you acknowlege. The challenge is understanding how to differentiate them.

For example, the first prophecy in Scripture, Genesis 3:15:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Is this literal, symbolic/spiritual, or some combination of both?

Thank you for your blessings, and I pray the same in return for you and yours.

If you cannot buy or sell anything without some kind of 'mark', 'number', or 'name', then you are living under the mark of the Beast.

We can still trade many things without government authorization or approved currencies but that is coming to an end quickly.

As of today, I can still trade items for items but for larger purchases, say, I trade 5 cars for a House, I will need legal authorization from multiple "names" and "numbers".... If you get my drift...

jgr said:

I sincerely appreciate your candor.

I think you may have missed my point, though.


My point is that naos as Paul uses it in his epistles is not a physical structure of any type, but a spiritual one, in this case, the Church.

That is how the Reformers, with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, understood it. Calvin's notes on 2 Thess. 2:4 in his Geneva Study Bible assert:

"He foretelleth that Antichrist, (that is, whosoever he be that shall occupy that seat that falleth away from God) shall not reign without the Church, but in the very bosom of the Church."

Regarding prophetic interpretation, there is no doubt that scores of prophecies are literal, and I understand and believe them as such. But scores are spiritual and symbolic as well, which I'm sure you acknowlege. The challenge is understanding how to differentiate them.

For example, the first prophecy in Scripture, Genesis 3:15:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Is this literal, symbolic/spiritual, or some combination of both?

Thank you for your blessings, and I pray the same in return for you and yours.

Click to expand...

My advice is to be vary careful in placing all your apples in one basket. I know just enough Greek to get myself into trouble and order a glass of water if I visit Greece.

Think a moment about the fact that It could just be the preferred term of the individual writer. We can't make a systematic interpretation based on just two words, especially when the two overlap to a degree.

Both 'hieron' and 'naos' are used of the physical temple, particularly in the gospels, so just because 'naos' may be used figuratively in many cases of the epistles, doesn't mean it automatically is figurative in every case since it can and does refer to the physical temple in the gospels.

What should be noted is how that particular writer uses the word throughout his letters. CONTEXT!
In this case, it's Paul: does Paul use 'naos' in a consistent way, whether of a physical temple or a spiritual one, or does he use it with both meanings depending on context?

Now then, having said that and we see him saying that the man of sin will SIT in the Temple and declare himself to be like God, the context IMO demands a physical place hence the word SIT.

And yes to Genesis 3:15. That is the 1st verse in the Bible that speaks to a Messiah and the gospel which will save men by faith. This is known as the protoevangelium—the first gospel.

If it is not literal then our salvation would come into question. That is the danger of "spiritualizing" Scriptures. If we say that Gen. 3:15 is NOT LITERAL then logically we must also say that the Serpent is not literal, neither would the curse God placed on the man and the woman and the earth.

GUANO said:

If you cannot buy or sell anything without some kind of 'mark', 'number', or 'name', then you are living under the mark of the Beast.

We can still trade many things without government authorization or approved currencies but that is coming to an end quickly.

As of today, I can still trade items for items but for larger purchases, say, I trade 5 cars for a House, I will need legal authorization from multiple "names" and "numbers".... If you get my drift...

Click to expand...

Agreed. Context from the Rev. says that the world will be a "cashless" society at the time of the Tribulation which would be the reasom for a mark. That mark would allow the govt. of the A/C to accept tax payments and to track and kill believers.

Major1 said:

Now then, having said that and we see him saying that the man of sin will SIT in the Temple and declare himself to be like God, the context IMO demands a physical place hence the word SIT.

Click to expand...

Greek kathizo used metaphorically in 2 Thess. 2:4, and in Matt. 23:2

Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Major1 said:

And yes to Genesis 3:15. That is the 1st verse in the Bible that speaks to a Messiah and the gospel which will save men by faith. This is known as the protoevangelium—the first gospel.

If it is not literal then our salvation would come into question. That is the danger of "spiritualizing" Scriptures. If we say that Gen. 3:15 is NOT LITERAL then logically we must also say that the Serpent is not literal, neither would the curse God placed on the man and the woman and the earth.

Click to expand...

You've immediately spiritualized Gen 3:15, because there is no literal mention or even implication of "Messiah" or "gospel" therein. Anyone with no prior knowledge of Messiah or the gospel would never understand that either of those existed within the verse.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is only from a spiritual perspective that the intended truth of this verse is revealed.

Continued blessings to you, my friend.

Major1 said:

Agreed. Context from the Rev. says that the world will be a "cashless" society at the time of the Tribulation which would be the reasom for a mark. That mark would allow the govt. of the A/C to accept tax payments and to track and kill believers.

Click to expand...

I don't necessarily see 'cashless' as a requirement but we're moving that way regardless. As a historicist I do not believe that the a/c is a person at all, but either way, it's the "False Prophet" who causes "all" to receive the mark. The a/c is sidelined in those verses.

Bible2+ said:

Similarly, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" is used to refer to an actual, physical temple.

Click to expand...

It's not inconceivable.

But we do have the advantage of the Reformers' 20/20 hindsight to assist us. They were living and dying in the depths of the apostasy, and so were uniquely equipped to serve as expert prophetic witnesses and diagnosticians.

From Calvin's Geneva Bible notes:

"He foretelleth that Antichrist, (that is, whosoever he be that shall occupy that seat that falleth away from God) shall not reign without the Church, but in the very bosom of the Church."

Bible2+ said:

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the third temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it

Click to expand...

Referring to Sozomen's Ecclesiastical History account which I posted earlier, I would expect a virtual 100% guarantee of a repetition of divine judgement should such a (re)building be attempted again. As seen in that account, the judgement was decisive, dramatic, and deadly. I would be extremely curious to know how many individuals who believe that the temple should be (re)built, but are aware of the Sozomen account, would be willing to personally participate onsite in the (re)building effort. Would you?

God never took pleasure in animal sacrifices, and Christ's sacrifice once for all has taken them away (Heb. 10:8-10). Some say that these sacrifices are intended for memorialization rather than atonement, yet the descriptions in Ezekiel 45 characterize them as reconcilatory i.e. atoning. The visions were clearly intended to convey other truth.

And God will ensure that there will never be any affront to His Son's perfect and final sacrifice.

GUANO said:

I don't necessarily see 'cashless' as a requirement but we're moving that way regardless. As a historicist I do not believe that the a/c is a person at all, but either way, it's the "False Prophet" who causes "all" to receive the mark. The a/c is sidelined in those verses.

Click to expand...

There are TWO beasts in Revelation 13.

The first is the A/C.
The second is the religious false prophet.

You are correct that it is the 2nd beast who causes all to receive a mark on his body.

I am sorry that you reject the Word of God on such a clear subject as described to us in the Bible. It is of course YOUR choice.

I for one believe that God, in the Bible, teaches us that there is coming a time when the beast who is THE A/C will rule the world for a brief period of time. During this time he will control all economic activity and use this control to force people to worship the "image of the beast".

To me that is exactly what Revelation chapter 13, verses 16 and 17 say:

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

Now the key to this is that at no other time in history has technology existed that can completely control all buying and selling. Today it can be done, and the cashless / RFID system is being put in place.

Consider Revelation 1:1 where John tells us that these things.........
"must shortly come to pass".

The purpose of God revealing these future events to us is so we will have the opportunity to prepare. The first thing we must do to prepare for what is coming is to believe on Jesus Christ.

John 20:31 says...........
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Everyone who believes that Jesus Christ died for their sins, and is risen again, shall be saved. Everyone who rejects Jesus will take the mark and be damned. Read the book of Revelation as you ask God to give you wisdom.

James 1:5........
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

Blessings to you my friend!

jgr said:

Greek kathizo used metaphorically in 2 Thess. 2:4, and in Matt. 23:2

Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:



You've immediately spiritualized Gen 3:15, because there is no literal mention or even implication of "Messiah" or "gospel" therein. Anyone with no prior knowledge of Messiah or the gospel would never understand that either of those existed within the verse.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is only from a spiritual perspective that the intended truth of this verse is revealed.

Continued blessings to you, my friend.

Click to expand...

Not so my friend. I am accepting Genesis as it is written and I would not spiritualize anything away.

Please consider First that LITTERALY, Messiah will be of unique birth—He will be the seed of the woman. Although we should be patient with someone who has difficulty seeing the truth of the virgin birth in these veiled words of God, it is implied that the deliverer will be of unique origin. Else, why is He called the seed of the woman and not the seed of the man?

Second, Messiah will be LITERALLY supernatural—He will defeat Satan, a supernatural being. Only one who has power beyond that of mere man can defeat him who is called “the prince of the power of the air” in Eph. 2:2. Thus, Messiah’s deity is pointed at.

Third, Messiah will be of the human race—LITERALLY, He will be from a woman, not an angel or a visitor from another world. Thus, if the seed is truly supernatural and human, the ultimate mystery begins to unfold—Messiah will be both God and man—a theme later developed by the prophets.

I am sorry that has escaped you but this is my understanding.

God bless you as well.

Major1 said:

There are TWO beasts in Revelation 13.

The first is the A/C.
The second is the religious false prophet.

You are correct that it is the 2nd beast who causes all to receive a mark on his body.

I am sorry that you reject the Word of God on such a clear subject as described to us in the Bible. It is of course YOUR choice.

I for one believe that God, in the Bible, teaches us that there is coming a time when the beast who is THE A/C will rule the world for a brief period of time. During this time he will control all economic activity and use this control to force people to worship the "image of the beast".

To me that is exactly what Revelation chapter 13, verses 16 and 17 say:

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

Now the key to this is that at no other time in history has technology existed that can completely control all buying and selling. Today it can be done, and the cashless / RFID system is being put in place.

Consider Revelation 1:1 where John tells us that these things.........
"must shortly come to pass".

The purpose of God revealing these future events to us is so we will have the opportunity to prepare. The first thing we must do to prepare for what is coming is to believe on Jesus Christ.

John 20:31 says...........
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Everyone who believes that Jesus Christ died for their sins, and is risen again, shall be saved. Everyone who rejects Jesus will take the mark and be damned. Read the book of Revelation as you ask God to give you wisdom.

James 1:5........
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

Blessings to you my friend!

Click to expand...

I lost you at "I'm sorry you reject Word of God on such a clear subject as described to us in the Bible"... Yeah, a particular scripture that has been hotly debated by scholars for hundreds of years—rude. Then you go on to tell me that the scripture is about RFID chips, something that that was only ever proposed in our lifetime. As someone who has designed software that tracks inventory using RFID chips as well as an analyst of current trends in technology, RFID is ineffective as a tool to reliably identify people. They are easy to hack/steal and even easier to "spoof" using tools freely available in our world today. Not to mention the studies that were done with them on human subjects shows that there are lots of adverse reactions to the foreign object in the body. I would personally lean toward some form of biometrics which requires no foreign object to be implanted and wouldn't require offending 1/6 of the world population (Christians). In the current state of affairs, western governments would be unable to pass any law forcing anyone to take an implant due to the sheer taboo alone—there wouldn't be enough support. Now, perhaps something could happen in the future that may change that, but I don't see it at this time. But I'm truly open to whatever Christ wants to do to fulfill His own prophecy.

The mark or 'number' may already be here now, just not worldwide.

• The scripture says that "all" are "caused to receive" (G1325: bestowed upon) the mark (or) number (or) name
• The scripture says that all who "receive" (G2983: take upon oneself) the mark (or) number (or) name will be tormented for ever.

I currently have a number. It was 'given' to me without my consent. It's a 'calculated' number derived from things such as my location and time of birth. It's 'in' my forehead in that I remember it (though the Biblical symbolism of 'in the forehead' may not imply memory). I cannot effectively 'participate in the marketplace' without it. It was given to me by a government from the earth (common people). The government that 'gave' it to me happens to be the exact same government that "was" (existed before the time of the writing of Revelation), "is not" (did not exist when Revelation was written), and would "ascend out of the bottomless pit" (exist again despite being off the face of the earth). The same government that 'gave' it to me holds the whole world hostage with it's ability to, at will, "call fire down from the sky"... It created a template of a government similar to a previous one (in the image/likeness) that lasted 1,260 years, claimed to have the authority of Jesus Christ, changed 'times and laws', and was characterized as a single sovereign city, subject to none, governing over a large body of nations who's leaders "hand over their power" to it. Coincidence?

Major1 said:

Not so my friend. I am accepting Genesis as it is written and I would not spiritualize anything away.

Please consider First that LITTERALY, Messiah will be of unique birth—He will be the seed of the woman. Although we should be patient with someone who has difficulty seeing the truth of the virgin birth in these veiled words of God, it is implied that the deliverer will be of unique origin. Else, why is He called the seed of the woman and not the seed of the man?

Second, Messiah will be LITERALLY supernatural—He will defeat Satan, a supernatural being. Only one who has power beyond that of mere man can defeat him who is called “the prince of the power of the air” in Eph. 2:2. Thus, Messiah’s deity is pointed at.

Third, Messiah will be of the human race—LITERALLY, He will be from a woman, not an angel or a visitor from another world. Thus, if the seed is truly supernatural and human, the ultimate mystery begins to unfold—Messiah will be both God and man—a theme later developed by the prophets.

I am sorry that has escaped you but this is my understanding.

God bless you as well.

Click to expand...

I completely concur with all of your conclusions.

And, you've confirmed the spiritualization process used to arrive at those conclusions, with the reference to "...these veiled words of God, it is implied that the deliverer will be of unique origin." How so? A literal message is not veiled. Its words directly say what they mean and mean what they say.

Not so with Gen. 3:15. The various descriptions and expressions used are, as you confirm, veils, which must be removed to expose the far greater realities of truth underneath. This is where the spiritualization process involving the Holy Spirit comes into play, to remove the veils and expose the underlying truths.

Thus, the serpent is a veil for Satan. "Her seed" is a veil for Messiah. "Bruise (or crush) thy head" is a veil for Christ's completed mission on Calvary which deals Satan a permanently fatal blow. "Bruise his heel" is a veil for Satan's infliction, with God's permission, of Christ's temporary suffering on Calvary (Isaiah 53:5,10).

Such insights are completely foreign -- foolishness and nonsense -- to the natural man. But to us who have the mind of Christ and the interpretive spiritual wisdom of the Holy Spirit, the veils are lifted, and the truths set us free.

Continued blessings to you, my brother.

GUANO said:

I lost you at "I'm sorry you reject Word of God on such a clear subject as described to us in the Bible"... Yeah, a particular scripture that has been hotly debated by scholars for hundreds of years—rude. Then you go on to tell me that the scripture is about RFID chips, something that that was only ever proposed in our lifetime. As someone who has designed software that tracks inventory using RFID chips as well as an analyst of current trends in technology, RFID is ineffective as a tool to reliably identify people. They are easy to hack/steal and even easier to "spoof" using tools freely available in our world today. Not to mention the studies that were done with them on human subjects shows that there are lots of adverse reactions to the foreign object in the body. I would personally lean toward some form of biometrics which requires no foreign object to be implanted and wouldn't require offending 1/6 of the world population (Christians). In the current state of affairs, western governments would be unable to pass any law forcing anyone to take an implant due to the sheer taboo alone—there wouldn't be enough support. Now, perhaps something could happen in the future that may change that, but I don't see it at this time. But I'm truly open to whatever Christ wants to do to fulfill His own prophecy.

The mark or 'number' may already be here now, just not worldwide.

• The scripture says that "all" are "caused to receive" (G1325: bestowed upon) the mark (or) number (or) name
• The scripture says that all who "receive" (G2983: take upon oneself) the mark (or) number (or) name will be tormented for ever.

I currently have a number. It was 'given' to me without my consent. It's a 'calculated' number derived from things such as my location and time of birth. It's 'in' my forehead in that I remember it (though the Biblical symbolism of 'in the forehead' may not imply memory). I cannot effectively 'participate in the marketplace' without it. It was given to me by a government from the earth (common people). The government that 'gave' it to me happens to be the exact same government that "was" (existed before the time of the writing of Revelation), "is not" (did not exist when Revelation was written), and would "ascend out of the bottomless pit" (exist again despite being off the face of the earth). The same government that 'gave' it to me holds the whole world hostage with it's ability to, at will, "call fire down from the sky"... It created a template of a government similar to a previous one (in the image/likeness) that lasted 1,260 years, claimed to have the authority of Jesus Christ, changed 'times and laws', and was characterized as a single sovereign city, subject to none, governing over a large body of nations who's leaders "hand over their power" to it. Coincidence?

Click to expand...

I am not sure why you are insisting that I said the Mark of the Beast will be an implanted chip.

I do not recall saying that so if you can post the thread and # of the post I will check it out.

I do not in fact believe that. I believe that the Scriptures say that the Mark will be some kind of impression placed either on the forehead or the hand.

IMO the system is already in place and it is the UPC Bar Code. I am not saying that it is the vehicle, only that it certainly could be. It would not be any problem for the A/C to use the technology in existence right now to place the Debit Card numbers, or Social Security Number we all have into a Bar code placed on the skin instead of our wallets. Will it be????? I do not know!!!

jgr said in post #368:

Some say that these sacrifices are intended for memorialization rather than atonement, yet the descriptions in Ezekiel 45 characterize them as reconcilatory i.e. atoning.

Click to expand...

In Ezekiel 45:15 and Ezekiel 45:17 the original Hebrew word (H3722) translated as "make reconciliation" can mean "cleanse" (cf. Numbers 35:33), and only with regard to the sanctification of the physical body (Hebrews 9:13). For the same word is used in Ezekiel 45:20 to refer to an actual, physical temple being "reconciled". And the same word is used in Ezekiel 43:26 and Ezekiel 43:20 to refer to the "purging" of an actual, physical altar.

Also, note that the rules in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are different in detail from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For example, note all the differences in the details of the passover animal sacrifice requirements of Ezekiel 45:21-25 and those of Numbers 28:16-24.

Also, Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen, like those in Revelation must happen (Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while still in Old Testament/Old Covenant times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were abolished by Jesus Christ on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

Nonetheless, when Jesus Christ returns and begins His Millennial reign on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21), He will still build a New Covenant, fourth temple building in Jerusalem; and New Covenant animal sacrifices will be offered in front of that temple (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). Instead of these sacrifices being for sin, they could be for thanksgiving (cf. Leviticus 22:29). Jesus could build that temple, and it could be operated according to the description in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48, but leaving out the parts about animal sacrifices for sin. Another possibility is New Covenant animal sacrifices for sin will be made, but as a remembrance of Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28), like how Communion is currently partaken of in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (Luke 22:19). The current practice of Communion could cease at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 11:26).

Also, after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), when the literal city of New Jerusalem will descend from heaven and land on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-3), there will no longer be any temple building (Revelation 21:22).

GUANO said in post #371:

I would personally lean toward some form of biometrics which requires no foreign object to be implanted and wouldn't require offending 1/6 of the world population (Christians). In the current state of affairs, western governments would be unable to pass any law forcing anyone to take an implant due to the sheer taboo alone—there wouldn't be enough support. Now, perhaps something could happen in the future that may change that . . .

Click to expand...

What could happen in the future to help even Christians to willingly receive the mark of the beast could be a terrible, worldwide epidemic.

For there could be a connection between a vaccination campaign and the mark of the beast, in that the vaccine and the mark could be administered at the same time, by the same doctor/nurse type of people who are trained to use needles, scalpels, and bandages properly and antiseptically. For the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) could be a permanent scar made by cuts with a scalpel.

Before the vaccination campaign begins, the Antichrist's agents could covertly spread around (such as with small, private planes secretly fitted with hidden spraying devices) an especially deadly bacteria (like anthrax) or an especially deadly virus (like Ebola) over the world's major population centers, after scientists working for the Antichrist have secretly come up with a vaccine which works against that bacteria or virus. After waiting until the bacteria or virus has killed tens of millions of people around the world, and health agencies issue dire warnings it could bring about the extinction of mankind, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as its savior by offering his (in his words) "just discovered" vaccine freely to everyone, on the simple condition they, as a sign of gratitude for his saving their lives (and as a sign to others they have been vaccinated), willingly receive his mark when they receive the vaccine. People could then rush to receive the vaccine and the mark, in order to keep from dying from the bacteria or virus.

Under such a scenario, Christians would have to decide whether to save their mortal lives, or let them be ended by the bacteria or virus, in order to keep from receiving the mark and thereby losing their salvation (cf. Mark 8:35-36, Revelation 14:9-13).

Also, the Antichrist could falsely say such a bacteria or virus-outbreak is (in his words) "a plague sent by YHWH to wipe out humanity, which he hates. But Lucifer appeared to me and showed me how to create this life-saving vaccine, for he cares about people" (cf. Mark 8:33b). In fact, Lucifer could have secretly developed the bacteria or virus himself. And he could even bring the vaccine against it down with him and publicly hand it over to the Antichrist when Lucifer and his angels descend to the earth mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9) to (as they could say) "save mankind from this genocidal plague from YHWH". So people could be deceived into rejecting YHWH and worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4-6, Revelation 12:9).

Major1 said:

Again..........we are not supposed to know my friend.

Click to expand...

Not true either. Yeshua told us what to look for as the signs of his return. Secondly, the whole "no one knows the day or the hour ..." is a Jewish idiom and if you do not know what those idioms are you will completely misunderstand what is being said.

Major1 said:

2 Thess. 2:3 clearly says that the A/C will be revealed AFTER the Rapture removes all believers.

Click to expand...

No, it does not! For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Paul goes on to suggest that it is the Ruach Ha Kodesh that is restraining this from occurring but absolutely NOWHERE does it indicate that the body is or is not present when this happens.

In fact NOWHERE in this chapter is the removal of believers even suggested let alone directly stated.

Major1 said:

I did not say the mark of the beast is physical. That is what the Scriptures say my friend.

As I listed for you the Scriptures which tells us that the seal of God is simply receiving the Holy Spirit when we come to believe in Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

Nope, the seal is the keeping of Sabbath. Numerous passage of the OT state this PLAINLY.

Major1 said:

Rev. 13:16-18..................
"And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead, and he provides that no one should be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

How else could God have words this so as to allow us the understand that the mark is a physical mark????

If you choose to reject this then you are free to do so. To me however it seems very clear.

Click to expand...

Study the OT and you will understand. If you want to understand The Revelation you have to understand the Torah. They were to BIND THEM ON THEIR HANDS and To Tie them as FRONTLETS on their Foreheads..... Hand= What you do/actions. Head= what you think/believe

BukiRob said:

Not true either. Yeshua told us what to look for as the signs of his return. Secondly, the whole "no one knows the day or the hour ..." is a Jewish idiom and if you do not know what those idioms are you will completely misunderstand what is being said.



No, it does not! For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Paul goes on to suggest that it is the Ruach Ha Kodesh that is restraining this from occurring but absolutely NOWHERE does it indicate that the body is or is not present when this happens.

In fact NOWHERE in this chapter is the removal of believers even suggested let alone directly stated.


Nope, the seal is the keeping of Sabbath. Numerous passage of the OT state this PLAINLY.



Study the OT and you will understand. If you want to understand The Revelation you have to understand the Torah. They were to BIND THEM ON THEIR HANDS and To Tie them as FRONTLETS on their Foreheads..... Hand= What you do/actions. Head= what you think/believe

Click to expand...

I respect your opinion but I do not accept it. You are welcome to believe as you choose and I am as well. I stand by what I posted and thank you for your response.

Bible2+ said:

What could happen in the future to help even Christians to willingly receive the mark of the beast could be a terrible, worldwide epidemic.

For there could be a connection between a vaccination campaign and the mark of the beast, in that the vaccine and the mark could be administered at the same time, by the same doctor/nurse type of people who are trained to use needles, scalpels, and bandages properly and antiseptically. For the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) could be a permanent scar made by cuts with a scalpel.

Before the vaccination campaign begins, the Antichrist's agents could covertly spread around (such as with small, private planes secretly fitted with hidden spraying devices) an especially deadly bacteria (like anthrax) or an especially deadly virus (like Ebola) over the world's major population centers, after scientists working for the Antichrist have secretly come up with a vaccine which works against that bacteria or virus. After waiting until the bacteria or virus has killed tens of millions of people around the world, and health agencies issue dire warnings it could bring about the extinction of mankind, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as its savior by offering his (in his words) "just discovered" vaccine freely to everyone, on the simple condition they, as a sign of gratitude for his saving their lives (and as a sign to others they have been vaccinated), willingly receive his mark when they receive the vaccine. People could then rush to receive the vaccine and the mark, in order to keep from dying from the bacteria or virus.

Under such a scenario, Christians would have to decide whether to save their mortal lives, or let them be ended by the bacteria or virus, in order to keep from receiving the mark and thereby losing their salvation (cf. Mark 8:35-36, Revelation 14:9-13).

Also, the Antichrist could falsely say such a bacteria or virus-outbreak is (in his words) "a plague sent by YHWH to wipe out humanity, which he hates. But Lucifer appeared to me and showed me how to create this life-saving vaccine, for he cares about people" (cf. Mark 8:33b). In fact, Lucifer could have secretly developed the bacteria or virus himself. And he could even bring the vaccine against it down with him and publicly hand it over to the Antichrist when Lucifer and his angels descend to the earth mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9) to (as they could say) "save mankind from this genocidal plague from YHWH". So people could be deceived into rejecting YHWH and worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4-6, Revelation 12:9).

Click to expand...

This is worthy of consideration, yet I take issue with the position of some that Yahweh God's salvation through God's work, through Christ, effective against the hold of all sin, is something that can be lost, when believers are assured that they have eternal life, and God cannot be wrong. Those that come out from us were never of us, or else they would continue with us, but they are manifest that way that they are never of us.

The pandemic is already coming upon us. This won't be all. There are more disastrous crises coming. It all really involves how we are living. Most of us persist with the same demands, such as from animal agriculture, while the social diseases including the recent virus epidemics and the pandemic that is coming upon us are all from animal agriculture, and that and other demands from among us contribute to other problems in the world, from which more crises will come. It is our civilization that will continue in this way with such problems coming to us from that. God who knows all did not endorse our civilization, but did gave warnings, and Babel was a type at the earliest formation of civilization. We are warned to come out, Mystery Babylon which has such exploitation in its history and has such destructive ways from it is going to fall. We should come out. The Garden was the model for us, since humanity and the creatures there were removed and we were in a fallen world, we should still live as we can by that model though it is with thorns among us and it will be labor with our sweat. There is no other way of living that will be truly sustainable in this world, and God did not tell us to live differently from that.

Nv

Bible2+ said:

What could happen in the future to help even Christians to willingly receive the mark of the beast could be a terrible, worldwide epidemic.

For there could be a connection between a vaccination campaign and the mark of the beast, in that the vaccine and the mark could be administered at the same time, by the same doctor/nurse type of people who are trained to use needles, scalpels, and bandages properly and antiseptically. For the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) could be a permanent scar made by cuts with a scalpel.

Before the vaccination campaign begins, the Antichrist's agents could covertly spread around (such as with small, private planes secretly fitted with hidden spraying devices) an especially deadly bacteria (like anthrax) or an especially deadly virus (like Ebola) over the world's major population centers, after scientists working for the Antichrist have secretly come up with a vaccine which works against that bacteria or virus. After waiting until the bacteria or virus has killed tens of millions of people around the world, and health agencies issue dire warnings it could bring about the extinction of mankind, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as its savior by offering his (in his words) "just discovered" vaccine freely to everyone, on the simple condition they, as a sign of gratitude for his saving their lives (and as a sign to others they have been vaccinated), willingly receive his mark when they receive the vaccine. People could then rush to receive the vaccine and the mark, in order to keep from dying from the bacteria or virus.

Under such a scenario, Christians would have to decide whether to save their mortal lives, or let them be ended by the bacteria or virus, in order to keep from receiving the mark and thereby losing their salvation (cf. Mark 8:35-36, Revelation 14:9-13).

Also, the Antichrist could falsely say such a bacteria or virus-outbreak is (in his words) "a plague sent by YHWH to wipe out humanity, which he hates. But Lucifer appeared to me and showed me how to create this life-saving vaccine, for he cares about people" (cf. Mark 8:33b). In fact, Lucifer could have secretly developed the bacteria or virus himself. And he could even bring the vaccine against it down with him and publicly hand it over to the Antichrist when Lucifer and his angels descend to the earth mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9) to (as they could say) "save mankind from this genocidal plague from YHWH". So people could be deceived into rejecting YHWH and worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4-6, Revelation 12:9).

Click to expand...

GOD Shines Forth! said:

Nv

Click to expand...

I don't think this should be missed. I many posters in this forum put forth what they are sure is coming, from their understanding of foretold things. I have not seen any one of those having anything born out, showing they were right. This posted message of coming viral pandemic well before the current circumstance well before any knowledge known to us of the the strain of pathogen we know of now is unique, and I still credit this foresight, while sharing warning that more crises are to come, which I am certain of, signs are showing it.