- Jan 26, 2007
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Huh. I've never heard this before. It's a little mind-blowing, in the best possible way... So you view asking others to intercede for us as primarily a confession of Christ's victory and destruction of all boundaries to the spiritual life?
yep, and a very real aspect of His victory
Regarding Maccabees, if I remember correctly, it teaches that the saints do pray for us, but does not describe their invocation. Is that correct? In the defense of the augsburg confession, we agree that the saints pray for us, but not that we should ask them to pray:
pretty sure there is some interaction between Jeremiah and the Jews.
Regarding the Rich man and Lazarus story: I was initially going to point out that the situation is different for them - the rich man is in Hades, Abraham and Lazarus are in heaven (is that still the correct term for the old covenant/pre-resurrection saints?). So it doesn't necessarily apply to us.
...but then I realized that the current, post-resurrection situation is far superior to the pre-resurrection state. And being alive on earth (us) is superior to being in hades (rich man). And being in heaven awaiting the resurrection (the saints) is superior to being in heaven pre-resurrection of Christ (Abraham and Lazarus). So my gut reaction doesn't make much sense lol
This is the first time someone has used this passage to support invocation, but it seems like a pretty strong argument. Especially because I've heard some people claim that this is not actually a parable, but an actual real story that Jesus is telling...
yep, if a departed sinner can pray to a saint and get an answer, why can't the rest of us?
Regarding intercession at Cana, I guess that's true. But in the end Mary directs them to Christ, so wouldn't we suppose she'd do the same now and would prefer us to go to him?
yes, the saints direct us to Christ. the same way your pastor does. if you have no qualms about asking your pastor to pray for you, how much more for the Mother of the Lord?
It does have an ancient precedent, which I think was less known at the time of the reformation (I just read an article about a new tablet that was discovered from the 2nd or 3rd century that had an invocation of Mary - I think it was the earliest example of this that has been found), so in the Apology, Melanchthon wrote "For when they cite the example of the Church, it is evident that this is a new custom in the Church; for although the old prayers make mention of the saints, yet they do not invoke the saints" -- we now know this to be false.
it does in the Martyrdom of Polycarp, I believe. which is very early.
I also wonder how matters such as this would have resulted if the reformation were in the east and not the west. Because a big aspect that the reformers were arguing against here was the applying the merits of the saints to us -- which the east rejects too simply because y'all don't understand salvation primarily as the the juridicial, "merit"-based situation.
but if the reformers were protesting something that was not an issue in the East, there would be nothing to reform....hence Orthodoxy
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