Co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix?

ArmyMatt

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Huh. I've never heard this before. It's a little mind-blowing, in the best possible way... So you view asking others to intercede for us as primarily a confession of Christ's victory and destruction of all boundaries to the spiritual life?

yep, and a very real aspect of His victory

Regarding Maccabees, if I remember correctly, it teaches that the saints do pray for us, but does not describe their invocation. Is that correct? In the defense of the augsburg confession, we agree that the saints pray for us, but not that we should ask them to pray:

pretty sure there is some interaction between Jeremiah and the Jews.

Regarding the Rich man and Lazarus story: I was initially going to point out that the situation is different for them - the rich man is in Hades, Abraham and Lazarus are in heaven (is that still the correct term for the old covenant/pre-resurrection saints?). So it doesn't necessarily apply to us.
...but then I realized that the current, post-resurrection situation is far superior to the pre-resurrection state. And being alive on earth (us) is superior to being in hades (rich man). And being in heaven awaiting the resurrection (the saints) is superior to being in heaven pre-resurrection of Christ (Abraham and Lazarus). So my gut reaction doesn't make much sense lol
This is the first time someone has used this passage to support invocation, but it seems like a pretty strong argument. Especially because I've heard some people claim that this is not actually a parable, but an actual real story that Jesus is telling...

yep, if a departed sinner can pray to a saint and get an answer, why can't the rest of us?

Regarding intercession at Cana, I guess that's true. But in the end Mary directs them to Christ, so wouldn't we suppose she'd do the same now and would prefer us to go to him?

yes, the saints direct us to Christ. the same way your pastor does. if you have no qualms about asking your pastor to pray for you, how much more for the Mother of the Lord?

It does have an ancient precedent, which I think was less known at the time of the reformation (I just read an article about a new tablet that was discovered from the 2nd or 3rd century that had an invocation of Mary - I think it was the earliest example of this that has been found), so in the Apology, Melanchthon wrote "For when they cite the example of the Church, it is evident that this is a new custom in the Church; for although the old prayers make mention of the saints, yet they do not invoke the saints" -- we now know this to be false.

it does in the Martyrdom of Polycarp, I believe. which is very early.

I also wonder how matters such as this would have resulted if the reformation were in the east and not the west. Because a big aspect that the reformers were arguing against here was the applying the merits of the saints to us -- which the east rejects too simply because y'all don't understand salvation primarily as the the juridicial, "merit"-based situation.

but if the reformers were protesting something that was not an issue in the East, there would be nothing to reform....hence Orthodoxy
 
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AMM

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We ask the Saints to pray for us because we have long experienced the benefits of doing so. There is nothing theoretical about the intercessions of the Saints in the Orthodox Church. We generally don't bother trying to justify it from Scripture anymore than trying to justify breathing in and out from Scripture.
We ask their prayers and we experience the results of their prayers. God obviously approves of the practice because of the superabundance of miracles which have occured as a result of their prayers. Honestly, there is no comparison to the extent of miracles in the Protestant Churches.
That's true. The more I read about this, the more I begin to see that, even if it isn't explicitly commanded in Scripture, it doesn't seem opposed to Scripture. It's certainly not opposed to history and the tradition of the church.

It seems like protestants started with the idea that saints should not be invoked and then proceeded to find texts and interpretations that support this view. Whereas if we start with the idea that they should be invoked, then we can find numerous texts to support the practice. At best, ours is an argument from silence.

My only hesitation is (and I fully admit that this is pretty dumb and arguably the height of my protestantism showing through) that many times the reason given is what you gave at the end -- miracles. In theory even a miracle can be from Satan to deceive and lead astray. Of course, it doesn't follow then that all miracles are Satanic - by no means am I saying that - just that we cannot base our faith on such miracles, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."

pretty sure there is some interaction between Jeremiah and the Jews.
Judas has a vision of Onias and Jeremiah; Onias tells Judas who Jeremiah is, and then Jeremiah gives Judas a sword and tells him it's a gift from God. Then Judas tells the Jews "about his dream, a kind of vision that they could trust in" (2 Macc 15:11). So you're right, there is interaction.

yes, the saints direct us to Christ. the same way your pastor does. if you have no qualms about asking your pastor to pray for you, how much more for the Mother of the Lord?
Fair point.

it does in the Martyrdom of Polycarp, I believe. which is very early.
It's been a while since I've read it... I recall veneration of his relics, but not explicit invocation. I may be misremembering though.

but if the reformers were protesting something that was not an issue in the East, there would be nothing to reform....hence Orthodoxy
Touche... you got me there :)
 
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All4Christ

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That's true. The more I read about this, the more I begin to see that, even if it isn't explicitly commanded in Scripture, it doesn't seem opposed to Scripture. It's certainly not opposed to history and the tradition of the church.

It seems like protestants started with the idea that saints should not be invoked and then proceeded to find texts and interpretations that support this view. Whereas if we start with the idea that they should be invoked, then we can find numerous texts to support the practice. At best, ours is an argument from silence.

My only hesitation is (and I fully admit that this is pretty dumb and arguably the height of my protestantism showing through) that many times the reason given is what you gave at the end -- miracles. In theory even a miracle can be from Satan to deceive and lead astray. Of course, it doesn't follow then that all miracles are Satanic - by no means am I saying that - just that we cannot base our faith on such miracles, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."


Judas has a vision of Onias and Jeremiah; Onias tells Judas who Jeremiah is, and then Jeremiah gives Judas a sword and tells him it's a gift from God. Then Judas tells the Jews "about his dream, a kind of vision that they could trust in" (2 Macc 15:11). So you're right, there is interaction.


Fair point.


It's been a while since I've read it... I recall veneration of his relics, but not explicit invocation. I may be misremembering though.


Touche... you got me there :)
My initial request for the Theotokos to intercede for me was something along the lines of:

God please forgive me if any of this is wrong, and give me peace if this is right to do...Theotokos, Mother of God, please pray for....

It helped me to feel confident in the peace I felt after this prayer.

Perhaps it is over simplistic, but it helped me.
 
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