Is Mary God?

4x4toy · Jun 19, 2017

kepha31 said:
I quoted the early Church fathers and the reformers. It appears you reject both.

I never said there was salvation in the rosary, you are misrepresenting me.

I've posted from this several times. It's a "bible-alone" view of the Immaculate Conception and
cites Protestant scholars:
Luke 1:28 ("Full of Grace") and the Immaculate Conception

This one is also purely a bible-alone presentation
Jesus Brothers and Mary's Perpetual Virginity -- Catholic Apologetics, Philosophy, Spirituality

We won't know the Truth and nothing but the Truth about those early church fathers and saints until they stand like we do at the judgment ..

4x4toy · Jun 19, 2017

Major1 said:
Agreed!

That was from Alabama wasn't it??? (LOL)

In Carolina we call it ''blowin smoke'' if you know what I mean ^_^

prodromos · Jun 19, 2017

4x4toy said:
Matthew 4:4 .. That's my story and I'm sticking to it ..

The Scriptures only record a tiny percentage of that.

4x4toy · Jun 19, 2017

prodromos said:
The Scriptures only record a tiny percentage of that.

Notice who Jesus was schooling while being tempted in that scripture ? Don't gimmie that ole time religion , gimmie that once and for all time religion

Major1 · Jun 19, 2017

kepha31 said:
There is no verse in the Bible that says the Bible is the sole rule of faith.
The Church is the FINAL interpreter of scripture, but that does not mean no one else can interpret it. That's unbiblical either/or dichotomous thinking, not Hebraic both/and thinking. "No one else can interpret the Bible" IS A FALSEHOOD. We are no different than any other church with certain limitations.

Are you aware it was 'bible-alone' heretics that challenged the Trinity in the first 5 centuries of church history? I suggest you look up Arianism, Nestorianism, Apollinarianism and a legion of others.
Are you aware that every heretic in history went by "bible-alone"?

There are only a handful of scriptures that the Church has infallibly interpreted. Infallibility is a gift from God given to the Church that prevents her from teaching error, it doesn't come from popes or councils.

We don't start with the assumption the Church is infallible. We start with the objective historical claims of Jesus who founded a teaching Church and built her on Peter the Rock. If that Church is to do what Jesus commanded she must teach with His authority (Lk 10:16). If she teaches with His own authority, she must be infallible when teaching officially on faith and morals. That is the argument in a nutshell. It is not a circular argument, but a "spiral" argument.

Christ promised: "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and teach all nations ... teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and behold, I am with you all days, even unto the consummation of the world" (Matt. 28:20). If Christ is with the Church all days, it cannot err in teaching; it cannot lead men away from God. (INFALLIBILITY)

"Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." If therefore the Church falls into error, the gates of hell certainly would prevail against it.
Jesus is he source of infallibility, not the Church.

Christ promised: "I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever ... He will teach you all the truth" (John 14). If the Church can err, then the Holy Spirit cannot abide in it and Christ has failed to keep His promise-a thing absolutely impossible.

I believe you are in error my friend.

2 Timothy 3:16 explains that the entire Bible is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Though this does not say that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, it is clear that it will thoroughly equip a person with faith which results in every good work.

As a Catholic believer I am sure that you know the Catholic Church takes the position that tradition and Scriptures are equally valid sources of revelation. That teaching my friend IS NOT Biblical at all. It further takes the position that the final authority on scriptural interpretation is the teaching magisterium of the church, which resides in the bishops, councils and ultimately, the bishop of Rome and that is what you are saying.

As a Protestant I must say to you that The Protestant churches nearly all tend to disregard tradition and cling only to the Bible. They endeavor to let the Bible explain itself when mysteries are encountered. If you recall, Jesus did rebuke the religious leaders of His day over this point (see Mark 7:7-9).

Major1 · Jun 19, 2017

kepha31 said:
I quoted the early Church fathers and the reformers. It appears you reject both.

I never said there was salvation in the rosary, you are misrepresenting me.

I've posted from this several times. It's a "bible-alone" view of the Immaculate Conception and
cites Protestant scholars:
Luke 1:28 ("Full of Grace") and the Immaculate Conception

This one is also purely a bible-alone presentation
Jesus Brothers and Mary's Perpetual Virginity -- Catholic Apologetics, Philosophy, Spirituality

Not so in any way.

You actually said........
"" It's not the Rosary AONE that leads to eternal life, but the true focus which is Christ."

I do not know how everyone else translates that but in plain English YOU said "ITS NOT THE ROSERY ALONE THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE".

To that comment I said..........."The Rosary actually has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

As for the other things you posted, not a single one is from the Scriptures!!!! They are all from Catholic publications.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE THAT SUGGESTS MARY WAS SAVED AT CONCEPTION AND WAS SAVED BECAUSE SHE GAVE BIRTH TO JESUS. Not One!!!!

There is also not one single verse in the Bible that even suggests the perpetual virginity of Mary. NO ONE!

kepha31 · Jun 19, 2017

Major1 said:
I believe you are in error my friend.

2 Timothy 3:16 explains that the entire Bible is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Though this does not say that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, it is clear that it will thoroughly equip a person with faith which results in every good work.

As a Catholic believer I am sure that you know the Catholic Church takes the position that tradition and Scriptures are equally valid sources of revelation. That teaching my friend IS NOT Biblical at all. It further takes the position that the final authority on scriptural interpretation is the teaching magisterium of the church, which resides in the bishops, councils and ultimately, the bishop of Rome and that is what you are saying.

As a Protestant I must say to you that The Protestant churches nearly all tend to disregard tradition and cling only to the Bible. They endeavor to let the Bible explain itself when mysteries are encountered. If you recall, Jesus did rebuke the religious leaders of His day over this point (see Mark 7:7-9).

Who produced the Bible? How were debates settled over which books belong in the Bible and which ones did not?

4x4toy · Jun 19, 2017

kepha31 said:
Who produced the Bible? How were debates settled over which books belong in the Bible and which ones did not?

Jesus , the Disciples and the Prophets produced the Bible as the Holy Spirit led word by word .. But some others like to think they can belly up to the trough and claim credit for God,s provision .. Were the chosen books included by God or by man who ever they may be ?

prodromos · Jun 19, 2017

Major1 said:
2 Timothy 3:16 explains that the entire Bible is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work

The "entire bible" when Paul wrote that to Timothy, consisted of the Old Testament and nothing more.

Panevino · Jun 20, 2017

I

Major1 said:
I believe you are in error my friend.

2 Timothy 3:16 explains that the entire Bible is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Though this does not say that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, it is clear that it will thoroughly equip a person with faith which results in every good work.

As a Catholic believer I am sure that you know the Catholic Church takes the position that tradition and Scriptures are equally valid sources of revelation. That teaching my friend IS NOT Biblical at all. It further takes the position that the final authority on scriptural interpretation is the teaching magisterium of the church, which resides in the bishops, councils and ultimately, the bishop of Rome and that is what you are saying.

As a Protestant I must say to you that The Protestant churches nearly all tend to disregard tradition and cling only to the Bible. They endeavor to let the Bible explain itself when mysteries are encountered. If you recall, Jesus did rebuke the religious leaders of His day over this point (see Mark 7:7-9).

Consider that "tradition" is spoken of differently in other places, revealing that there is a different version of it that is good that issues via the "Church"
1 Thessalonians 2:13

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

This relates to the authority Jesus gave the magisterium

Luke 10:16

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Matthew 18:18

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This magisterium (teaching office) is what Paul and Barnabas sought a decision from in acts 15

2 Thessalonians 3:6

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

FenderTL5 · Jun 20, 2017

Major1 said:
..As a Protestant I must say to you that The Protestant churches nearly all tend to disregard tradition and cling only to the Bible..

So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

2 Timothy 3:16 ..does not say that the Bible is the sole rule of faith..

Operating as if it does say that could explain, partially at least, why there are so many divisions and error in Protestant churches.

Major1 · Jun 20, 2017

FenderTL5 said:
So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Operating as if it does say that could explain, partially at least, why there are so many divisions and error in Protestant churches.

Tradition is not in and of itself wrong. However, it is wrong and unacceptable when it opposes the Word of God as does Catholic teaching.
In the early church good tradition was the principle means of Christian instruction. False tradition ends up as heresy or apostasy.

We as Christians always need to sit under the preaching and teaching of the Word of God, but when the content conflicts with the Scriptures, the teaching or traditions of men must be rejected for the certain truth of the Bible.

Panevino · Jun 20, 2017

Major1 said:
Tradition is not in and of itself wrong. However, it is wrong and unacceptable when it opposes the Word of God as does Catholic teaching.
In the early church good tradition was the principle means of Christian instruction. False tradition ends up as heresy or apostasy.

We as Christians always need to sit under the preaching and teaching of the Word of God, but when the content conflicts with the Scriptures, the teaching or traditions of men must be rejected for the certain truth of the Bible.

Who decides? even Paul and Barnabas required clarity from the church for a binding decision.

Phil 1:21 · Jun 20, 2017

Major1 said:
Tradition is not in and of itself wrong. However, it is wrong and unacceptable when it opposes the Word of God as does Catholic teaching.
In the early church good tradition was the principle means of Christian instruction. False tradition ends up as heresy or apostasy.

We as Christians always need to sit under the preaching and teaching of the Word of God, but when the content conflicts with the Scriptures, the teaching or traditions of men must be rejected for the certain truth of the Bible.

I agree. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 isn't a hall pass to deviate from the word of God.

Major1 · Jun 20, 2017

Panevino said:
I

Consider that "tradition" is spoken of differently in other places, revealing that there is a different version of it that is good that issues via the "Church"
1 Thessalonians 2:13

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

This relates to the authority Jesus gave the magisterium

Luke 10:16

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Matthew 18:18

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This magisterium (teaching office) is what Paul and Barnabas sought a decision from in acts 15

2 Thessalonians 3:6

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

I belive that you are misunderstanding 2 Thess. 3:6.

Paul is not using the word "tradition" in a way which you can use to make it acceptable.

He is speaking of "Discipline".

Withdraw means to dissociate.

We find 8 references on the word "Tradition" from Jesus himself, all of which are derogatory of traditions. Not once does he insinuate they are useful or scriptural.

Paul has 5 references, 2 of which are derogatory (Col.2:8; Gal.1:14).

Peter also has one reference also derogatory 1 Pt.1:18. (the aimless conduct received by the tradition of the fathers). For Peter to be called the first Pope and does not uphold this practice does not help the position of the Catholic believer.

Major1 · Jun 20, 2017

Panevino said:
Who decides? even Paul and Barnabas required clarity from the church for a binding decision.

Of course the answer is the Word of God.

Major1 · Jun 20, 2017

prodromos said:
The "entire bible" when Paul wrote that to Timothy, consisted of the Old Testament and nothing more.

And your point would be.............?

Deut. 32:46......
“Take heart all the words by which I am warning you today, that you may command them to your children, that they may be careful to do all the words of this law. For it is no empty word for you, but your very life".

Those words set the standard for the proper regard for the Scriptures of the old covenant. This is why the psalmist devoted the 176 verses of Psalm 119 to the celebration of the Scripture, using the twenty-two letters of the Hebrew alphabet as a structure. In effect, he said God’s Word is everything from A to Z. The Scriptures are life!

4x4toy · Jun 20, 2017

prodromos said:
The "entire bible" when Paul wrote that to Timothy, consisted of the Old Testament and nothing more.

Do you think the New Testament had already been penciled in ''in the beginning'' ? I'd say the first was last and the last was first in a philosophical and Jesus kinda way ..
We know the entire Bible is the Word of God . Revelation 22:18-19 is probably talking about the book of Revelation but to which book of the Bible would it not apply ? What church or man can add to or take away for that matter ? We have the standard and do many works as Jesus said but it all must be confined within and according to the written Word or it is deemed wood , hay and stubble
Proverbs 30:6
Deuteronomy 4:2

kepha31 · Jun 20, 2017

Major1 said:
I belive that you are misunderstanding 2 Thess. 3:6.

Paul is not using the word "tradition" in a way which you can use to make it acceptable.

He is speaking of "Discipline".

Withdraw means to dissociate.

We find 8 references on the word "Tradition" from Jesus himself, all of which are derogatory of traditions. Not once does he insinuate they are useful or scriptural.

Paul has 5 references, 2 of which are derogatory (Col.2:8; Gal.1:14).

Peter also has one reference also derogatory 1 Pt.1:18. (the aimless conduct received by the tradition of the fathers). For Peter to be called the first Pope and does not uphold this practice does not help the position of the Catholic believer.

Are you suggesting Jesus didn't follow the Traditions as a faithful Jew? He was never circumcised? He didn't go to Jerusalem with His mother for the annual Passover? Never celebrated Rosh Hashana or Yom Kipper or any of the other Jewish feasts?
Jesus is the one who made Peter the first Pope, and Peter as spokesman/leader for all the Apostles is all over the NT, you just can't see the obvious.

kepha31 · Jun 20, 2017

4x4toy said:
Jesus , the Disciples and the Prophets produced the Bible as the Holy Spirit led word by word .. But some others like to think they can belly up to the trough and claim credit for God,s provision .. Were the chosen books included by God or by man who ever they may be ?

The debates over what books belonging in the Bible was not finalized until the Council of Carthage in 397 AD. The Holy Spirit guided Catholic bishops in their discernments of the canon of the Bible. They didn't make them inspired, they already were inspired. Inspiration is not the same as canonization.

Is Mary God?

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Κύριε, ἐλέησον.

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