Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works

-57 · Jun 17, 2017

TheSeabass said:
Jesus does save. Who does Jesus save and why them? Hebrews 5:9 Jesus saves those that obey him. So man has a role in his own salvation in obeying Christ.

If you're going to be judged for salvation by how well you obeyed.....I doubt anyone will get to heaven.

Neogaia777 · Jun 17, 2017

TheSeabass said:
God was the one that required those obedient works of Abraham therefore only God can justify Abraham by those works as God does with us today who obey the commands God has given us.

If a man does not obey the gospel, then we easily judge that man is an unrighteous, lost person.

If they are absent of faith and love, yes...

The works are supposed to of faith and love, this was before the law, they knew the spirit of the law, which is the law of faith in a covenant of faith, and it was written on their hearts or consciences back then, and it was like an unwritten, sometimes even unspoken, rule, or code or agreement of people that were the same in this back then, before law, under the New Covenant, in Christ, we went back to the Covenant of faith, or law of faith, that is not written on tablets but on man's hearts, and is an inner knowing, a matter of conscience...

-57 · Jun 17, 2017

TheSeabass said:
1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Save thyself from what?..........taking heed to himself, and doctrine, saves himself from the pollutions of the world, from the errors and heresies of false teachers, from the blood of all men, and from all just blame in his ministry. ref

yeshuaslavejeff · Jun 17, 2017

Quasar92 said:
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages.

Not really.
In all the testimony
of all the people
worldwide
who have been saved,
that I've read
their testimony
or met them in person
or on the phone
or on the internet
not one of them has or sees
any conflict ("hard-to-reconcile") in Scripture,
but, 'obviously?,
a lot of conflict in religion.

Neogaia777 · Jun 17, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
If they are absent of faith and love, yes...

The works are supposed to of faith and love, this was before the law, they knew the spirit of the law, which is the law of faith in a covenant of faith, and it was written on their hearts or consciences back then, and it was like an unwritten, sometimes even unspoken, rule, or code or agreement of people that were the same in this back then, before law, under the New Covenant, in Christ, we went back to the Covenant of faith, or law of faith, that is not written on tablets but on man's hearts, and is an inner knowing, a matter of conscience...

Is it true that not only Abraham's sacrifice symbolic or a shadow of, Jesus being sacrificed, but wasn't it Isaac who sacrificed his favorite some would say only begotten "pet" lamb, that was very special to him as a child, (was it Isaac...?)

Isaac's sacrifice of the special lamb was also picturesque of Christ... So that both father and son knew a thing or two about sacrifice...

Albion · Jun 17, 2017

TheSeabass said:
We can look to Abraham and see he was not justified by a faith only but an obedient faith just as people today are justified by an obedient faith.

Abraham's faith always included works, Hebrews 11:8.

That's the nature of Faith, no matter whom we are speaking of. It produces Works. So this doesn't do anything to disprove Sola Fide either.

As I think on it, I believe you are attempting to carve out a place for your own idea part way between Faith Alone and Faith plus Works as being what saves. In reality, however, operational Faith or Faith in operation or Obedient Faith is just...Faith.

stuart lawrence · Jun 17, 2017

It's worth pointing out, the OT law, (commonly referred to as the legalistic law,)that most Christians accept they are not under, could bring justification of observing that law. For that law could be faultlessly obeyed( phil3:6)
The law no one faultlessly obeyed was the moral law/TC, and the moral law exists today as it did under the OC.

klutedavid · Jun 17, 2017

Hello Seabass.

You stated.

There will be those that will claim works are not really works to avoid the necessity of obedient works in being saved.

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works,"

May I correct this quotation.

Abraham never actually sacrificed his son, therefore the work Abraham intended to perform was never completed. This verse is a direct refutation of the heresy, that we can justify ourselves before God by our works.

Paul told us in no uncertain terms that Abraham believed God and that is what mattered.

Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

The righteousness is a free gift (credited to Abraham) and so is our salvation.

Alithis · Jun 17, 2017

TheSeabass said:
Romans 5:1-------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

Since there is just way to be justified/saved, then faith must be a work for a faith void of works is dead and a dead faith cannot save.

How can a person that does not obey what God has commanded ever be justified?

this is a simple thing once a perso grasps that faith is a verb .
it is not a thing you have but an action you do because you truly believe what God has ,by grace, made available to us.
thus by grace are ye saved THROUGH faith.

its always both together ..for we can only Do faith because God has graciously made a way for us to Do it.

sorry..thats a long winded way to say,
I agree with you lol

Acts2:38 · Jun 17, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Can people in an unsaved state receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?

No, they cannot now days and since Acts 10. Acts 10 is a case of miraculous precedent. This is why God chose Cornelius Acts 10:1-8. Notice "9th hour of the day". An angel of God came to Cornelius around 2-3 pm in the late noon. Because of how devout Cornelius was, is probably why God chose this Gentile and sent Peter to use the "key" to open up the kingdom to Gentiles.

I would recite the verses I have already put forth and more if wished so. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is clear that no one these days has the miraculous gifts, not any of those gifts. For one to have one miraculous gift means ALL gifts must exist still. Raising people from the dead, healing someone instantly without any doctors or medicine, speaking languages that someone before didn't have a clue about, its all done away now that we have the bible, "that which is perfect".

The only reason for miracles back then was to have testimony that Jesus was Jesus God in the flesh, that He has all power and authority, that He is the only way for us to be saved so long as we obey His commands given to us thorough the gospel.

One is not saved, until they are baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ, FOR the remission of sins, AND they will receive the Holy Spirit.

The problem people seem to have is that they think believe is a one time thing. Believe is actually a action word, a verb. You must do it continuously.

How would one do that?

By obeying the gospel.

Remember Jesus said this here in John 14:15 and John 15:14?

Well, the gospel shows tons of scripture of people being baptized. One might say, "well I see that but its not necessary".

But they have huge problems saying that with verses like Acts 2:38 and the word "for" the remission of sins. They do not understand 1 Peter 3:21 and try to twist its meaning. They refuse to accept Mark 16:16.

Mark 16:16 is just one of many verses that "puts the nail in the coffin" on the matter of baptism being necessary.

Notice in that verse the "AND". Believe AND baptized. It is a command to do both for your salvation. the last sentence of Mark 16:16, "who believe not", people try to say "SEE, this means I don't need baptism". It is hogwash that they say that. Obviously, someone who doesn't believe is not going to need to be told to be baptized. So in the last part of the sentence, saying "and not baptized" is not needed cause obviously they don't believe.

There just really is no getting around baptism. It is commanded as a salvation issue for all, to enter into the Lords church Acts 2:47, and be in the one body Romans 12; 1 Corinthians 12.

These are the verses I usually state to let one know what the bible says about ones salvation:

Hear the word – Romans 10:17, Matthew 7:24-27

Believe the word is true and believe in Jesus – Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16:15-16(not faith only), James 2:24, John 12:42

Repent of your sins and transgressions – Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30-31, Luke 13:3

Confess Jesus is Lord and Lord of your life – Matthew 10:32-33, Acts 8:36-37

Baptism for the repentance, forgiveness of your sins -

Purpose: Acts 2:38, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 10:48, John 3:5, Luke 7:30. Read 2 Corinthians 5:17 with Galatians 3:27.
Action: Romans 6:3-5, Acts 8:36-38, Mark 1:9-10, John 3:23
Infants need not to be baptized - Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:13-15, Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 14:12.

Remain faithful until death – Revelation 2:10

Examples of baptism and conversions:

Jesus’ Baptism – Matthew 3:13-17

Day of Pentecost – Acts 2:22 and 36-47

Samaria – Acts 8:4-13

Ethiopian eunuch – Acts 8:26-39

Paul (Saul) – Acts 9:1-20 and 22:6-16

Cornelius – Acts 10:1-48 and 11:1-18

Lydia – Acts 16:13-15

Philippian jailor – Acts 16:23-34

Many Corinthians – Acts 18:8

ChristianIssues · Jun 17, 2017

Many people are confused by Paul's and James' statements on faith and works. They seem to contradict each other but, in fact, they same the same thing. The following short blog explains it -
Faith and Works | Christian Issues

stuart lawrence · Jun 17, 2017

Acts2:38 said:
No, they cannot now days and since Acts 10. Acts 10 is a case of miraculous precedent. This is why God chose Cornelius Acts 10:1-8. Notice "9th hour of the day". An angel of God came to Cornelius around 2-3 pm in the late noon. Because of how devout Cornelius was, is probably why God chose this Gentile and sent Peter to use the "key" to open up the kingdom to Gentiles.

I would recite the verses I have already put forth and more if wished so. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is clear that no one these days has the miraculous gifts, not any of those gifts. For one to have one miraculous gift means ALL gifts must exist still. Raising people from the dead, healing someone instantly without any doctors or medicine, speaking languages that someone before didn't have a clue about, its all done away now that we have the bible, "that which is perfect".

The only reason for miracles back then was to have testimony that Jesus was Jesus God in the flesh, that He has all power and authority, that He is the only way for us to be saved so long as we obey His commands given to us thorough the gospel.

One is not saved, until they are baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ, FOR the remission of sins, AND they will receive the Holy Spirit.

The problem people seem to have is that they think believe is a one time thing. Believe is actually a action word, a verb. You must do it continuously.

How would one do that?

By obeying the gospel.

Remember Jesus said this here in John 14:15 and John 15:14?

Well, the gospel shows tons of scripture of people being baptized. One might say, "well I see that but its not necessary".

But they have huge problems saying that with verses like Acts 2:38 and the word "for" the remission of sins. They do not understand 1 Peter 3:21 and try to twist its meaning. They refuse to accept Mark 16:16.

Mark 16:16 is just one of many verses that "puts the nail in the coffin" on the matter of baptism being necessary.

Notice in that verse the "AND". Believe AND baptized. It is a command to do both for your salvation. the last sentence of Mark 16:16, "who believe not", people try to say "SEE, this means I don't need baptism". It is hogwash that they say that. Obviously, someone who doesn't believe is not going to need to be told to be baptized. So in the last part of the sentence, saying "and not baptized" is not needed cause obviously they don't believe.

There just really is no getting around baptism. It is commanded as a salvation issue for all, to enter into the Lords church Acts 2:47, and be in the one body Romans 12; 1 Corinthians 12.

These are the verses I usually state to let one know what the bible says about ones salvation:

Hear the word – Romans 10:17, Matthew 7:24-27

Believe the word is true and believe in Jesus – Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16:15-16(not faith only), James 2:24, John 12:42

Repent of your sins and transgressions – Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30-31, Luke 13:3

Confess Jesus is Lord and Lord of your life – Matthew 10:32-33, Acts 8:36-37

Baptism for the repentance, forgiveness of your sins -

Purpose: Acts 2:38, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 10:48, John 3:5, Luke 7:30. Read 2 Corinthians 5:17 with Galatians 3:27.

Action: Romans 6:3-5, Acts 8:36-38, Mark 1:9-10, John 3:23

Infants need not to be baptized - Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:13-15, Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 14:12.

Remain faithful until death – Revelation 2:10

Examples of baptism and conversions:

Jesus’ Baptism – Matthew 3:13-17

Day of Pentecost – Acts 2:22 and 36-47

Samaria – Acts 8:4-13

Ethiopian eunuch – Acts 8:26-39

Paul (Saul) – Acts 9:1-20 and 22:6-16

Cornelius – Acts 10:1-48 and 11:1-18

Lydia – Acts 16:13-15

Philippian jailor – Acts 16:23-34

Many Corinthians – Acts 18:8

No they cannot now days??

Let me explain something to you.
The Holy Spirit does NOT dwell in the unsaved, only the saved.
One definition of a Christian is: someone in whom the Holy Spirit dwells.
If you have the Holy Spirit you are in a saved state.
I'm sorry if it's uncomfortable for you to accept, but Cornelius and his household were in a saved state, PRIOR to them being baptised in water.

S.O.J.I.A. · Jun 17, 2017

it's by faith alone,

good works are the product of true saving faith. without faith, you will not do the good works(impossible to please God).

stuart lawrence · Jun 17, 2017

Acts2:38 said:
No, they cannot now days and since Acts 10. Acts 10 is a case of miraculous precedent. This is why God chose Cornelius Acts 10:1-8. Notice "9th hour of the day". An angel of God came to Cornelius around 2-3 pm in the late noon. Because of how devout Cornelius was, is probably why God chose this Gentile and sent Peter to use the "key" to open up the kingdom to Gentiles.

I would recite the verses I have already put forth and more if wished so. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is clear that no one these days has the miraculous gifts, not any of those gifts. For one to have one miraculous gift means ALL gifts must exist still. Raising people from the dead, healing someone instantly without any doctors or medicine, speaking languages that someone before didn't have a clue about, its all done away now that we have the bible, "that which is perfect".

The only reason for miracles back then was to have testimony that Jesus was Jesus God in the flesh, that He has all power and authority, that He is the only way for us to be saved so long as we obey His commands given to us thorough the gospel.

One is not saved, until they are baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ, FOR the remission of sins, AND they will receive the Holy Spirit.

The problem people seem to have is that they think believe is a one time thing. Believe is actually a action word, a verb. You must do it continuously.

How would one do that?

By obeying the gospel.

Remember Jesus said this here in John 14:15 and John 15:14?

Well, the gospel shows tons of scripture of people being baptized. One might say, "well I see that but its not necessary".

But they have huge problems saying that with verses like Acts 2:38 and the word "for" the remission of sins. They do not understand 1 Peter 3:21 and try to twist its meaning. They refuse to accept Mark 16:16.

Mark 16:16 is just one of many verses that "puts the nail in the coffin" on the matter of baptism being necessary.

Notice in that verse the "AND". Believe AND baptized. It is a command to do both for your salvation. the last sentence of Mark 16:16, "who believe not", people try to say "SEE, this means I don't need baptism". It is hogwash that they say that. Obviously, someone who doesn't believe is not going to need to be told to be baptized. So in the last part of the sentence, saying "and not baptized" is not needed cause obviously they don't believe.

There just really is no getting around baptism. It is commanded as a salvation issue for all, to enter into the Lords church Acts 2:47, and be in the one body Romans 12; 1 Corinthians 12.

These are the verses I usually state to let one know what the bible says about ones salvation:

Hear the word – Romans 10:17, Matthew 7:24-27

Believe the word is true and believe in Jesus – Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16:15-16(not faith only), James 2:24, John 12:42

Repent of your sins and transgressions – Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30-31, Luke 13:3

Confess Jesus is Lord and Lord of your life – Matthew 10:32-33, Acts 8:36-37

Baptism for the repentance, forgiveness of your sins -

Purpose: Acts 2:38, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 10:48, John 3:5, Luke 7:30. Read 2 Corinthians 5:17 with Galatians 3:27.

Action: Romans 6:3-5, Acts 8:36-38, Mark 1:9-10, John 3:23

Infants need not to be baptized - Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:13-15, Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 14:12.

Remain faithful until death – Revelation 2:10

Examples of baptism and conversions:

Jesus’ Baptism – Matthew 3:13-17

Day of Pentecost – Acts 2:22 and 36-47

Samaria – Acts 8:4-13

Ethiopian eunuch – Acts 8:26-39

Paul (Saul) – Acts 9:1-20 and 22:6-16

Cornelius – Acts 10:1-48 and 11:1-18

Lydia – Acts 16:13-15

Philippian jailor – Acts 16:23-34

Many Corinthians – Acts 18:8

As for you saying miraculous gifts have ceased because we now have the Bible. You haven't any scripture to support such an errant view.
Biblically speaking. Signs wonders and miracles were an endorsement of the truth being preached. Acts14:3, heb2:2-4 etc.
And if you are saved providing you obey Jesus literal commands. How many of Jesus literal commands do you obey?
Do you not invite friends and family home for a meal, but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in heaven?
Have you ever told anyone if you fast?
If someone stole something of yours, would you offer them more besides what they stole, with nothing but love in your heart for them?
Would you lend to anyone who asked, even those who hated you, without expecting to get anything back?

Personally, I have met no one in over fifty years who has obeyed, or even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ.
But I have met many who reel off pat statements that have no bearing in the reality of their own lives.
They don't practice what they preach/ demand of others

Bible2+ · Jun 18, 2017

Acts2:38 said in post #88:

That which is perfect is the gospel we have now, completed by John when he did Revelation and passed away thereafter.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

This isn't referring to the perfect Bible (2 Timothy 3:16) but to the perfect man (2 Timothy 3:17) which the whole obedient Church will become in our future (Ephesians 4:13) when it sees Jesus Christ face to face at His Second Coming (1 Corinthians 13:12; 1 John 3:2). All obedient Christians will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal, sinless, physical bodies like Jesus' physical resurrection body (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), at His Second Coming (Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Romans 8:23-25, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

When the apostle Paul speaks of perfect maturity having come in 1 Corinthians 13:10-11 he has Christians as the context. For the context is the "we" who currently know and prophesy only in part (1 Corinthians 13:9) and who currently see Jesus Christ only as in a darkened mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12; 2 Corinthians 3:18) but who will see Him face to face (1 Corinthians 13:12) at His future, Second Coming (1 John 3:2).

If the original Greek of 1 Corinthians 13:10 means Paul didn't know when (in the sense of the year, month, and day) all obedient Christians will become perfect, that would be because he didn't know when the Second Coming will occur.

*******

Acts2:38 said in post #130:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is clear that no one these days has the miraculous gifts, not any of those gifts.

Note that the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46) won't cease operating until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at His Second Coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will just precede the Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the Church going to reject the ministry of the Two Witnesses because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because Jesus Christ's Second Coming, like the preceding Tribulation, hasn't happened yet, all the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the Church today, in Pentecostal congregations, and in Charismatic congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8) while other tongues are languages which people can't understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however, for when they're prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28) they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11) their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God they're singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They aren't to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there's someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

Bible2+ · Jun 18, 2017

TheSeabass said in post #90:

James does not say nor imply that man must be justified before man in order to be saved.

That's right.

The issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved (James 2:14b), how they're to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved, how they're to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That's why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

Bible2+ · Jun 18, 2017

Neogaia777 said in post #95:

What does it mean to "work out (your own) salvation" (with fear and trembling)...?

While God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

Some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That's why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

*******

Neogaia777 said in post #122:

The works are supposed to of faith and love . . .

That's right, and even faith without love is worthless, for:

1 Corinthians 13:2 . . . though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
4 ¶Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 ¶Love never faileth . . .

Bible2+ · Jun 18, 2017

-57 said in post #121:

If you're going to be judged for salvation by how well you obeyed.....I doubt anyone will get to heaven.

Note there is an obedient part of the Church, which part will be ultimately saved (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 25:21,23), while the disobedient part will ultimately lose its salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, Hebrews 10:26-29).

victorinus · Jun 18, 2017

I will rely on His mercy

Bonzobob · Jun 18, 2017

Quasar92 said:
This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about.

James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation.

They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.From: www.gotquestions.org

Quasar92[/QUOTE
If we accept Jesus death on the cross as atonement for our sins we are saved, and no-one can take that salvation from us. BUT then the Holy Spirit lays on our hearts to do good works, because the Holy Spirit is in us once we ask for forgiveness for our sins. These works are NOT part of our salvation, they are because of it. I f we did not do good works after conversion there is a case that our conversion was not sincere, if it was sincere then we ARE SAVED.

Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works

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