Life after death: Justification, equity & the justice of God

Karl.C · Jun 16, 2017

In their final analysis of whether there is animated & conscious life after death (before the resurrection), many a conservative Christian theologian concludes: "in scripture, no one, born of a man and a woman, has ever returned from the dead confirming that conscious & animated existence is preserved after "the soul" is separated from the body upon death". It is also pointed out that Jesus never affirmed the proposition...and both Jesus & scripture use "sleep" as a metaphor to describe death = there is no consciousness or activity in respect of that external to the individual.

Most (if not all) Christian theologians agree that it is the soul (Hbr=neshamah not ruah; LXX=psyche not pneuma) that provides consciousness to the body (cp. Genesis 2:7; note A.Paul's distinction of psyche & pneuma at 1 Thessalonians 5:23; note Jesus' comparability of "soma" & "psyche" at Matthew 10:28).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 has it that the "life force" of a person, the breathe (Hbr=ruah; LXX=pneuma), when the body returns to dust, returns to God who had given it. So it must be concluded that the "life force" of the body is itself perpetuated (immortal) = as God persists indefinitely in and outside of time so his energia.

However true this persistence of God's energia must be, this does not necessitate the perpetuation of the essentia of an individual (the soul) after the death of the body, other than within the omniscience of God (Jesus plainly states that a "psyche" can be annihilated in the same way as a "soma" = Matthew 10:28). In fact, to think that the soul is naturally immortal is counter intuitive to anyone who has paid attention to the witness of Genesis & Revelation concerning accessibility to "the tree of life" to perpetuate consciousness & animated existence (life). In fact: there is an obvious need for a bodily resurrection to provide animated existence.

Despite the irrefutable witness of Jesus & scripture, it is the pagan concepts which permeate the thinking of secular christianity = the ancient & modern pagan philosophies concerning the perpetuation of life as a "spirit being" after death of the body. Such a premise is a contradiction to the Christian teaching of the necessity of a bodily resurrection..A.Paul says.such a resurrection "the wise" of this world consider a foolishness...

Luther, and Catholic theologians before & after him, appealing to scripture, have all attempted to address the entrenched societal problem of common superstition but obviously, with little success.

Appealing to neglected scripture (see Ezekiel 18:25,29) and from a viewpoint of philosophical rationalisation, the question for the Christian mind regarding animated & conscious life after death (before the resurrection) are the matters of justification, equity and the justice of God...

1. What is your justification for having faith in pagan folk lore?
2. Where is the equity in having the equally good or bad who die in different eras having unequal terms of persistence in a supposed afterlife?
3. As per question 2, where is God's justice in administering such disproportions?
4. Why do you reject the scriptural witness that the dead have no activity or consciousness in the current world = the biblical metaphor the dead are as if asleep?

vinsight4u · Jun 16, 2017

Karl.C · Jun 16, 2017

vinsight4u said:
What do you think it means when it tells that Jacob was
gathered - when he was still in his bed?
When Isaac died it mentioned both died and - gathered.
Look at the end o Genesis 49 and then see how Joseph then soon fell on him.

According to Genesis 25:8 "Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people". In short was dead & buried like his ancestors.

Genesis 25:17 same with Ishmael. 35:19 ditto Isaac. Genesis 49:29 "Then he [Jacob] charged them and said to them: “I am to be gathered to my people; bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite," etc etc etc

You really should try reading what scripture actually says in full and not truncate texts to demonstrate the deficiencies of your presumptions...All the instances you appeal to explicitly say "gathered to his people". Your inventiveness has more than failed you, it has demonstrated the level of deceit to which you have sunk...

vinsight4u said:
Ecclesiastes 12:5 shows that the mourners go about and that man goes to his long/as in eternal/ home.

You should have kept reading. Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it". In case you haven't noticed, Solomon is providing an annihilationist viewpoint.

Ditto Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten".

According to the OT & therefore religious Jews who acknowledge Daniel 12:2 and so have a hope in a resurrection for the just, the dead are unconscious & inanimate.

The tradition of these Jews has it that eveyone goes to sheol/hades when they die but until the resurrection of the just the righteous are gathered to rest at Abraham's bosom (their definition of paradise). The same tradition has it that the unrighteous undergo upto 12 months of purgation and then are annihilated by being thrust into the river/lake of fire.

vinsight4u · Jun 16, 2017

vinsight4u · Jun 16, 2017

vinsight4u · Jun 16, 2017

Radrook · Jun 17, 2017

Karl.C said:
In their final analysis of whether there is animated & conscious life after death (before the resurrection), many a conservative Christian theologian concludes: "in scripture, no one, born of a man and a woman, has ever returned from the dead confirming that conscious & animated existence is preserved after "the soul" is separated from the body upon death". It is also pointed out that Jesus never affirmed the proposition...and both Jesus & scripture use "sleep" as a metaphor to describe death = there is no consciousness or activity in respect of that external to the individual.

Most (if not all) Christian theologians agree that it is the soul (Hbr=neshamah not ruah; LXX=psyche not pneuma) that provides consciousness to the body (cp. Genesis 2:7; note A.Paul's distinction of psyche & pneuma at 1 Thessalonians 5:23; note Jesus' comparability of "soma" & "psyche" at Matthew 10:28).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 has it that the "life force" of a person, the breathe (Hbr=ruah; LXX=pneuma), when the body returns to dust, returns to God who had given it. So it must be concluded that the "life force" of the body is itself perpetuated (immortal) = as God persists indefinitely in and outside of time so his energia.

However true this persistence of God's energia must be, this does not necessitate the perpetuation of the essentia of an individual (the soul) after the death of the body, other than within the omniscience of God (Jesus plainly states that a "psyche" can be annihilated in the same way as a "soma" = Matthew 10:28). In fact, to think that the soul is naturally immortal is counter intuitive to anyone who has paid attention to the witness of Genesis & Revelation concerning accessibility to "the tree of life" to perpetuate consciousness & animated existence (life). In fact: there is an obvious need for a bodily resurrection to provide animated existence.

Despite the irrefutable witness of Jesus & scripture, it is the pagan concepts which permeate the thinking of secular christianity = the ancient & modern pagan philosophies concerning the perpetuation of life as a "spirit being" after death of the body. Such a premise is a contradiction to the Christian teaching of the necessity of a bodily resurrection..A.Paul says.such a resurrection "the wise" of this world consider a foolishness...

Luther, and Catholic theologians before & after him, appealing to scripture, have all attempted to address the entrenched societal problem of common superstition but obviously, with little success.

Appealing to neglected scripture (see Ezekiel 18:25,29) and from a viewpoint of philosophical rationalisation, the question for the Christian mind regarding animated & conscious life after death (before the resurrection) are the matters of justification, equity and the justice of God...

1. What is your justification for having faith in pagan folk lore?
2. Where is the equity in having the equally good or bad who die in different eras having unequal terms of persistence in a supposed afterlife?
3. As per question 2, where is God's justice in administering such disproportions?
4. Why do you reject the scriptural witness that the dead have no activity or consciousness in the current world = the biblical metaphor the dead are as if asleep?

Simple, if the Vatican or their Church denomination tells them that's the way it is then that's the way it must be and everything, else-such as historical documentation and attempts at biblical textual support is heresy and Satanic propaganda. Trying to get past that barrier is usually an exercise in futility similar to reasoning with atheists about the existence of God.

Karl.C · Jun 17, 2017

Radrook said:
Simple, if the Vatican or their Church denomination tells them that's the way it is then that's the way it must be and everything, else-such as historical documentation and attempts at biblical textual support is heresy and Satanic propaganda. Trying to get past that barrier is usually an exercise in futility similar to reasoning with atheists about the existence of God.

Actually you should be pointing your finger at the pulpit thumping "hell & damnation" protestant churches who perpetuate the pagan myths.

Never in my life time, nor my father's nor my grand parents have we heard of a fiery hell of physical eternal torture preached from the pulpit. And from reading the RCC fathers, such ideas have never been a formal teaching of the RCC Magesterim (though, in the past, the idea was a superstition maintained by the illiterate masses and manipulated by the secular authorities to control the peasantry. Admittedly, at one period of time, in a constrained area, the religious authorities used the superstition to raise funds - hence Luther's protest).

In the RCC tradition I know, the point is made that at Luke 16:24, the rich man is plagued by a single tongue of flame and does not experience any other malady. Contrast this with the distinct flame experienced by each individual at Acts 2:3... The same flame can be detrimental or beneficial...

Karl.C · Jun 17, 2017

vinsight4u said:
Genesis 35:29

“And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.”

King James Version (KJV)

I already highlighted that verse plus the numerous others that state each of the patriarchs were "gathered unto [their] people". Genesis 49:29 defines the term precisely "...bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite,"

What is it your inventive imagination is, so far unsuccessfully, trying to articulate?

vinsight4u · Jun 17, 2017

Karl.C · Jun 17, 2017

vinsight4u said:
2 Kings 22:20

“Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.”

King James Version (KJV)

referring to Josiah

So Joseith is buried in the grave, like anyone else! Whats your point?

Have you not noticed that only one time in the OT is there the slightest intimation of a belief that a select few have an occasional consciousness after death? Deceased conquerors ridiculing a newly deceased conqueror as he is entombed along with them, and having become as impotent as them. The account of course is given in the context of what the living imagine the dead as saying if the dead had consciousness & activity. I'm sure you well know the verse...

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2017

Karl.C said:
So Joseith is buried in the grave, like anyone else! Whats your point?
Have you not noticed that only one time in the OT is there the slightest intimation of a belief that a select few have an occasional consciousness after death? Deceased conquerors ridiculing a newly deceased conqueror as he is entombed along with them, and having become as impotent as them. The account of course is given in the context of what the living imagine the dead as saying if the dead had consciousness & activity. I'm sure you well know the verse...

In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isaiah 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art th
1) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezekiel 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Ezekiel 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Then we have the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Both die, Lazarus is carried to the bosom of Abraham, a position not a place, and the rich man is buried and in Hades he lifts up his eyes and begs Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue. Abraham tells him that those in either place cannot cross over to the other place.

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2017

Karl.C said:
So Joseith is buried in the grave, like anyone else! Whats your point?
Have you not noticed that only one time in the OT is there the slightest intimation of a belief that a select few have an occasional consciousness after death? Deceased conquerors ridiculing a newly deceased conqueror as he is entombed along with them, and having become as impotent as them. The account of course is given in the context of what the living imagine the dead as saying if the dead had consciousness & activity. I'm sure you well know the verse...

Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2017

Karl.C said:
...
Ditto Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten"...

This verse is often quoted out-of-context as a proof text for annihilationism, but in-context it has nothing to do with man's eternal fate.
The phrase "under the sun" occurs 29 times in Ecclesiastes, it occurs 6 times in chapter 9.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
(3) This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:6-13
(5 ) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
...
(9) Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
...
(11) I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
...
(13) This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me:

This passage is not about man's eternal fate but what happens in this world, "under the sun." Verse 3, two vss before vs. 5, is about "an evil among all things that are done under the sun." Vs. 6 immediately after vs. 5 is about "any thing that is done under the sun." So vs. 5 refers to "the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten [under the sun]" not about man's eternal fate. If we understand vs. 5 to refer to man's eternal fate then even the righteous "neither have they any more a reward."vs. 5.

ClementofA · Jun 17, 2017

Der Alter said:
This verse is often quoted out-of-context as a proof text for annihilationism, but in-context it has nothing to do with man's eternal fate.

I think it is often quoted as a "proof text" re the state of the dead, to claim they are without consciousness, feelings, thoughts or life of any kind.

That it has nothing to do with annihilationism, you are correct. After all, the dead will be resurrected. So they have not been endlessly obliterated from existence.

Karl.C · Jun 17, 2017

Der Alter said:
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isaiah 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art th
1) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezekiel 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Ezekiel 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Then we have the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Both die, Lazarus is carried to the bosom of Abraham, a position not a place, and the rich man is buried and in Hades he lifts up his eyes and begs Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue. Abraham tells him that those in either place cannot cross over to the other place.

Best you read what Isaiah actually identified as speaking = "Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us..."
Isaiah 14:8

The reality is that in the OT there is not a single verse that attests that the dead in Sheol have perpetutation of consciousness and/or activity. Of course this has no effect on the RCC, ROC, EOC or the OOC and similiar. All appeal to the philosophers and what is called either "natural justice" or "the moral law", both common to most intellectual societies...

Protestants who propulgate sola scriptura are stuck between a cliff face and a cliff fall, because even the NT doesn't support consciousness and/or activity of the human dead.

Rev 20:10 doesn't pose a problem, as it only and directly refers to the Devil. The Devil, who being an angelic being, is presumed to be incapable of death. Albeit scripture nowhere says such is so. As with the soul, it is assumed there is he who could terminate their existence.

Rev 19:20-21 should also be considered: "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone..And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

No mention of eternal torment for the beast & false prophet. And the text has it their followers were annihilated to the point that "the fowls were filled with their flesh". Also note there is no mention of these being thrown into the lake of fire.

A curiosity: there are a couple of branches of the OOC that hold that "Revelation" is a gnostic work and so reject it as part of the Christian canon. I presume they rely on Daniel 12:2. If so, then theyd hold there is a third class that isn't resurrected and remain in "the dust of the earth".

Of interest:" Revelation" had a troubled entry into the Christian canon, According to EOC sources it was excluded until the Sixth Ecumenical Council (688/689CE), although some local synods had begun to accept it from the late 4th century...From what I gather, none of the Churchesinclude it in the public readings of scripture...it has always been excluded from the official lectionary of the EOC.

Karl.C · Jun 17, 2017

Der Alter said:
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

According to Jewish tradition of those that believed in a personal resurrection the righteous dead slept at Abraham's bosom, whilst the unrighteous underwent a period of purgation before they were annihilated in the river/lake of fire which flowed on their side of sheol.

Those that didn't believe in a personal resurrection assumed all perished in the dust of the earth. Punishment for one's sins were visited upon your children, family or nation...

Its common knowledge and easily verified..

Karl.C · Jun 17, 2017

Der Alter said:
This verse is often quoted out-of-context as a proof text for annihilationism, but in-context it has nothing to do with man's eternal fate.
The phrase "under the sun" occurs 29 times in Ecclesiastes, it occurs 6 times in chapter 9.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
(3) This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:6-13
(5 ) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
...
(9) Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
...
(11) I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
...
(13) This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me:
This passage is not about man's eternal fate but what happens in this world, "under the sun." Verse 3, two vss before vs. 5, is about "an evil among all things that are done under the sun." Vs. 6 immediately after vs. 5 is about "any thing that is done under the sun." So vs. 5 refers to "the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten [under the sun]" not about man's eternal fate. If we understand vs. 5 to refer to man's eternal fate then even the righteous "neither have they any more a reward."vs. 5.

Read what Solomon wrote ""For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing..."

Karl.C · Jun 17, 2017

ClementofA said:
I think it is often quoted as a "proof text" re the state of the dead, to claim they are without consciousness, feelings, thoughts or life of any kind.

That it has nothing to do with annihilationism, you are correct. After all, the dead will be resurrected. So they have not been endlessly obliterated from existence.

Your summation provides an excellent point. However, it undermines common belief in "ghosties". :clap:

Der Alte · Jun 17, 2017

Karl.C said:
According to Jewish tradition of those that believed in a personal resurrection the righteous dead slept at Abraham's bosom, whilst the unrighteous underwent a period of purgation before they were annihilated in the river/lake of fire which flowed on their side of sheol.
Those that didn't believe in a personal resurrection assumed all perished in the dust of the earth. Punishment for one's sins were visited upon your children, family or nation...
Its common knowledge and easily verified..

Did you even read my post? Your are giving me "Jewish tradition" and"common knowledge." That may be what some teachers have taught you but I quoted from the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia which was written and compiled by 50+ Jewish Rabbis and scholars and I quoted from the Talmud. I think those two historical Jewish sources trumps your unsupported "Jewish tradition" and so-called "common knowledge." Would you like to try again and maybe give me some credible, verifiable, historical evidence?

Life after death: Justification, equity & the justice of God

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