How were the lives of the three beasts prolonged?

precepts

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This is one of the most inane arguments ever. I use the term '11th horn' too, so don't say that it is only Precepts using it.

The term 'little horn' is not distinctive. The little horn of Daniel 8 is not the same as the little horn of Daniel 7, so saying '11th horn' is more distinctive.

Apparently, you assume that the Daniel 8 little horn is the same as the Daniel 7 little horn. But they aren't the same: the Dan 7 little horn comes after the 10 horns (hence the term 11th horn). the dan 8 little horn probably/ potentially comes before the 10 horns (the king's head that owns the 10 horns).
., please. Everything else but the Dan 8 horn. being part of the 10 horns in Dan 7 is correct - good cop vs. bad cop.

The wise know the 11th horn in Dan 7 is Roman; and the little horn in Dan 8 is Greek, coming up out of one of the 4 Greek horns (Dan 8:9) that came up after the great horn was broken.

The world definitely is not of God.
 
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precepts

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How many horns are on the goat in Daniel 8? The bible doesn't use your made up convention.

Do you know what this argument is similar to?

When the bible says 1260 days - people do conversion in their heads and say 3 1/2 years. Then when the bible says 42 months, they do the same conversion to get 3 1/2 years again. So they conclude events taking place during the 1260 days on a timeline take place the same time as events in the 42 months...erroneously.
You know what time it is. It is the rules that allow you to play your foolish games.
 
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Douggg

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This is one of the most inane arguments ever. I use the term '11th horn' too, so don't say that it is only Precepts using it.
:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:
Apparently, you assume that the Daniel 8 little horn is the same as the Daniel 7 little horn. But they aren't the same: the Dan 7 little horn comes after the 10 horns (hence the term 11th horn). the dan 8 little horn probably/ potentially comes before the 10 horns (the king's head that owns the 10 horns).
Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, Daniel 12.... all end the same way - with the Return of Jesus. Of course the little horn in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are the same person.
 
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Douggg

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., please. Everything else but the Dan 8 horn. being part of the 10 horns in Dan 7 is correct - good cop vs. bad cop.

The wise know the 11th horn in Dan 7 is Roman; and the little horn in Dan 8 is Greek, coming up out of one of the 4 Greek horns (Dan 8:9) that came up after the great horn was broken.

The world definitely is not of God.
You misunderstand Daniel 8:9. The little horn in Daniel 8 is not necessarily Greek, although could be. He has to be of Roman descent, according to bloodline though. That doesn't mean he has to be from Rome itself. Although he could be.

Daniel 8:9 is informing where the little horn comes from with his strong army.

He stages his EU army in Greece right before Gog/Magog as a deterrent, and heads there with a strong army after God supernatually destroys Gog's army and occupies the former muslim oil rich countries in the middle east.

Greece itself does not have a strong army. What they do have a big debt that they can't get out from under. The population of Greece is 11 million people. The EU is 509 million.

So it is not talking about a Greek Army waxing strong to the south and east.
 
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Yahchristian

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:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:
Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, Daniel 12.... all end the same way - with the Return of Jesus. Of course the little horn in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are the same person.


The little horn in Daniel 7 that came up among ten horns cannot be the same entity as the little horn in Daniel 8 that came out of four horns if the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is not the same entity as the he goat in Daniel 8.

So for clarification, can you give your answer to these questions...

Who does the fourth beast in Daniel 7 refer to? I say the Roman Empire.
Who does the he goat in Daniel 8 refer to? I say the Grecian Empire.

Daniel 7:7-8... After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 8:8-9... Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
 
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Douggg

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Who does the fourth beast in Daniel 7 refer to? I say the Roman Empire.
Who does the he goat in Daniel 8 refer to? I say the Grecian Empire.
I agree.... but that is is not the issue. The goat is not in Daniel 8:9. At that point, it is focusing on the little horn.

The issue is where geographically does the little horn come from with his strong army, to head to the south and east. Greece itself does not have a strong army.

The population of Greece is only 11 million. The EU, the end times Roman Empire, is 509 million. Guess who has the strong army?
 
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precepts

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You misunderstand Daniel 8:9. The little horn in Daniel 8 is not necessarily Greek, although could be. He has to be of Roman descent, according to bloodline though. That doesn't mean he has to be from Rome itself. Although he could be.
In order for me to take Dan 8 out of context, I would have to take Dan 11 out of context also, t he context of both being Greek.

Daniel 8:9 is informing where the little horn comes from with his strong army.

He stages his EU army in Greece right before Gog/Magog as a deterrent, and heads there with a strong army after God supernatually destroys Gog's army and occupies the former muslim oil rich countries in the middle east.

Greece itself does not have a strong army. What they do have a big debt that they can't get out from under. The population of Greece is 11 million people. The EU is 509 million.

So it is not talking about a Greek Army waxing strong to the south and east.
Please! And yo u have yet to answer my question .




.
 
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Douggg

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In order for me to take Dan 8 out of context, I would have to take Dan 11 out of context also, the context of both being Greek.
Well, I am sure you have. Who are you saying is Greek in Daniel 11, Chapter and verse?

Please! And yo u have yet to answer my question .
Your question is like asking me if the biblical 42 in Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 13:5 is 3 1/2 years. Your question is irrelevant to the text.

Do your refer to the little horn in Daniel 8 as the fifth horn?
 
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Yahchristian

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Do your refer to the little horn in Daniel 8 as the fifth horn?


No.

Daniel 8 says "out of one of them came forth a little horn".

In other words, the little horn replaced one of the original four horns.

It was not another horn in addition to the original horns as was the case in Daniel 7.
 
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precepts

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Well, I am sure you have. Who are you saying is Greek in Daniel 11, Chapter and verse?
Don't waste my time.

And, btw, I tried spacing my writing like you 've been doing, since you started asking me questions about the beasts; but when I pressed enter, it wouldn't post the way I left it. I wonder why?


Your question is like asking me if the biblical 42 in Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 13:5 is 3 1/2 years. Your question is irrelevant to the text.
How in the world is my question irrelevant when you're the one saying that there's no 11th horn? It's as if you people think that only you have a brain.

Do your refer to the little horn in Daniel 8 as the fifth horn?
If he came up among the four, and not out of one of the four, then I would. But I don't expect you to understand the semantics
 
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precepts

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No.

Daniel 8 says "out of one of them came forth a little horn".

In other words, the little horn replaced one of the original four horns.

It was not another horn in addition to the original horns as was the case in Daniel 7.
Hear, hear!
 
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precepts

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I agree.... but that is is not the issue. The goat is not in Daniel 8:9. At that point, it is focusing on the little horn.

The issue is where geographically does the little horn come from with his strong army, to head to the south and east. Greece itself does not have a strong army.

The population of Greece is only 11 million. The EU, the end times Roman Empire, is 509 million. Guess who has the strong army?
You have a reading comprehension problem. I told you to ask somebody. The great horn was on the goat's head, so when the 4 horns came up after it was broken they came up on the goat's head also; from which the little horn came out of, the goat's head, the goat being Greece!

Case closed.
 
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Douggg

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You have a reading comprehension problem. I told you to ask somebody. The great horn was on the goat's head, so when the 4 horns came up after it was broken, they came up on the goat's head also; from which the little horn came out of, the goat's head, the goat being Greece!
uh,I have a reading problem? Copy and paste from the KJV...

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
 
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Douggg

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How in the world is my question irrelevant when you're the one saying that there's no 11th horn? It's as if you people think that only you have a brain.
Your question is irrelevant to the text. It is irrelevant because the bible doesn't say 11th horn, but little horn.
 
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Douggg

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No.

Daniel 8 says "out of one of them came forth a little horn".

In other words, the little horn replaced one of the original four horns.

It was not another horn in addition to the original horns as was the case in Daniel 7.
It doesn't say the little horn replaces one of the original four horns that grew to the four winds. What it is emphasizing is that the four break up kingdoms were north, south, east, west.

From the geographic location of one of the breakup kingdoms - has to be the one of the west, in order to go south and east to head toward Israel.... the little horn waxes strong that direction.

Keep in mind at the time Daniel received the prophecy, everything was future. Now at our time in history part of the overall prophecy is historic.

Conversely, the part about the little horn the vision of him transgressing the covenant it says in the text, Daniel 8:17 below, is time of the end, end times.

The little horn did not replace one of the horns. The four horns representing the breakup kingdoms - happened over 2200 years ago after Alexander. And were subsequently followed by the Roman Empire.

Which in Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom has an end times version of it. Which the little horn, end times, first appears among the 10 kings of that fourth kingdom.


Greece, the territory, geographically in our day and time, formerly one of the four breakup kingdoms is the eastern most frontier of the EU in the end times. The EU has a strong army, not the nation of Greece, one of the member nations.

Remember the part about the little horn is end times in the text - while the part about the four breakup kingdoms we know by 20/20 hindsight is historic. With 2000 years of history between us and them. So none of THOSE horns are still around - to be replaced by the little horn.

The intent of Daniel 8:9 is to show where "geographically" the little horn will initially come from with his strong army to the south and east.


13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

So the vision of the transgression of desolation by the little horn is end times, 2000 years after the four breakup kingdoms were followed by the Roman Empire.

The transgression of desolation will be when the person goes into the temple sits, claims to be God, in 2thessalonians2:3-4

23 And in the latter time of their [the transgressors kingdom, not the four break up kingdoms] kingdom [the EU in its final form, which it will evolve into], when the transgressors are come to the full [the ten kings of Daniel 7 are in place], a king [the little horn who comes up amongst them] of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

"stand up" is an idiom for gets ready to fight, go to war. (it's something animals do, stand on their hind legs, right before they charge into each other) Which that war will be the Gog/Magog invasion appearing imminent. And his staging his EU army in Greece as a deterrent, will be seen by the Jews in the aftermath of Gog's destruction, that he is their long awaited messiah - because one of the main things the Jews expect of their messiah, in their beliefs, is that he fights the battles of God in defending Israel.

The 7 years in Ezekiel 39, following the destruction of Gog's army, is the exact same 7 years of Daniel 9:27, which the prince who shall come [from the EU] as perceived messiah confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years - a big speech from the temple mount about the land of Israel belonging to the children of Israel forever. And will be anointed the King of Israel, by the false prophet, making him the Antichrist, the rider on the white horse in Revelation 7, who receives a crown, at the start of the 7 years.

Riding a white horse, because he will be perceived to be the messiah, for a while by the Jews - compared to Jesus, the true messiah, and rightful King of Israel, riding a white horse in Revelation 19, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

That's how it all fits together.
 
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Yahchristian

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From the geographic location of one of the breakup kingdoms - has to be the one of the west, in order to go south and east to head toward Israel.

The four horns representing the breakup kingdoms - happened over 2200 years ago after Alexander. And were subsequently followed by the Roman Empire.


Correct.

The Western one of the four horns which followed the Grecian Empire would produce the Roman Empire.

In other words, whereas the "little horn" of Daniel 8 represents the Roman Empire, the "little horn" of Daniel 7 represented a kingdom after the ten horns which followed the Roman Empire.


presentist1.gif
 
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Douggg

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In other words, whereas the "little horn" of Daniel 8 represents the Roman Empire, the "little horn" of Daniel 7 represented a kingdom after the ten horns which followed the Roman Empire.
Not back when you have it on your statue chart. The little horn is time of the end, as are the ten kings.

Your chart necessitates that the 1260 days of Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 be changed from what the text says to 1260 years. A day does not equal a year everywhere in bible prophecy. The two witnesses, their 1260 days - not years - of prophecy ends with them lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem, 3 1/2 days - which shows that the 1260 days is days, not years.

Not only that, in Revelation 17:12, when the ten horns rule with the beast, it is for a short time, one hour, figuratively, and 42 months literally in Revelation 13, when they have their crowns showing them ruling with the beast- right up to the time Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years.

The ten horns are not Franks, Lombards, Vandals, ..... cannot be, long gone.

12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
 
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Yahchristian

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Not back when you have it on your statue chart. The little horn is time of the end, as are the ten kings.


The "little horn" in my chart refers to the "little horn" of Daniel 7 (not Daniel 8).

presentist1.gif



From previous posts...

I think you agree that the "fourth beast" of Daniel 7 was the Roman Empire. Correct?

And I think you agree that the "he goat" of Daniel 8 was the Grecian Empire. Correct?

So what do you think represents the Roman Empire in Daniel 8?

Or do you think the Roman Empire is not mentioned in Daniel 8?

P.S. I say the "little horn" of Daniel 8 represents the Roman Empire.
 
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Douggg

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The "little horn" in my chart refers to the "little horn" of Daniel 7 (not Daniel 8).
I don't get it. The little horn in Daniel 7 and 8 is the same person. The kingdom of the little horn person in Daniel 8 is the same kingdom of the little horn in Daniel 7.

The little horn person in Daniel 8 commits the transgression of desolation to the sanctuary - there was no sanctuary to desecrate during the past 2000 years.

"desolation" regarding the temple, just means that there will be no worship and praise of the One True God during that timeframe when the Transgression and then the Abomination take place.

The Transgression of Desolation is when the person goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

Shortly, thereafter, after he is killed and brought back to life as the beast, the statue image of him made and placed in the temple - the statue image is the Abomination of Desolation.

Two different things - but related.


From previous posts...

I think you agree that the "fourth beast" of Daniel 7 was the Roman Empire. Correct?

And I think you agree that the "he goat" of Daniel 8 was the Grecian Empire. Correct?

yes, I agree.

So what do you think represents the Roman Empire in Daniel 8?
Or do you think the Roman Empire is not mentioned in Daniel 8?

There is no "symbolism" representing the Roman Empire in Daniel 8. What there is though, in Daniel 8:23, that kingdom (called their kingdom - the kingdom of the transgressors) is the EU, the end times version of the Roman Empire. The little horn will be the leader of the EU.

At the latter time of their kingdom, I believe, is at the latter time of the EU. It started as the EEC, European Economic Community, back in the 1950's, then became the EC, European Community, then became the EU, which we have at present. But the ten kings are not in place yet - that is, "come to the full". So there is one more step to go, as the EU evolves.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

When the EU starts talking about restructuring its government that is going to have the ten leader form - whatever that is - with one leader over them. The world will be really, really close to the pre-seven years event of Gog/Magog, followed by the 7 years of Daniel 9:27.
 
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