So......if you believe that, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I will leave you to it.
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Universalism...why not?
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The Times
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Ok, I understand and respect your position, however please do understand that what I believe is not based on my own subjective belief, nor is my belief simply merited to me, for it is what is instructed and required of me and all the disciples of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ said go and make disciples of all the world and to proclaim the salvation message contained in his gospel, that.....
35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. (John 3:35-36)
We as witnesses will NOT preach another gospel outside of the Great Commission and we must not be yoked with unbelievers, for the Father has provided THE PATH to salvation and it is warranted and merited in this life, especially when God sent forth his Holy Spirit to seed himself in the hearts of men and women who are in the the realm of the living, for our God is the God of the Living. Unbelievers who die without the cross and without the Holy Ghost have no salvation, for who dares preach a salvation message outside of the realm of the Living?
The Spiritists and the New Agers do this against the Father's will and in so doing are TRYING to CIRCUMVENT the Great Commission.
Here is what Spiritists believe as far as salvation is concerned.....
"Spiritism not only helps us to understand Jesus' lessons, but also shows us that by force of divine law, we will all achieve a complete state of evolution and happiness. It is in this sense that the author Palhano Jr. writes that Spiritism "does not assume the responsibility for the salvation of anyone, since it does not proclaim any eternal damnation to begin with. To the contrary, it says that everyone evolves, the good and the bad, some more slowly than others, depending on the efforts of each."
Spiritists belief lines up perfectly with Universalists who do not believe in eternal damnation, and believe that everyone, the good and the bad will be salted through the fires of the afterlife, where some will be cleansed more slowly than others. That by force of devine law which Universalists and Spiritists parrot repeatedly, where God is Love, therefore all will succumb to God's Love and eventually be saved. Isn't this a wishy washy anti-gospel, that is outside of the justifying cross of Christ and outside of the sanctifying works of the Holy Spirit.
Hello there.....salvation according to Universalists and Spiritists are a perfect match made in the afterlife of the purging salting fires.
Universalism = Spiritism
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For another viewpoint on that subject:
"Spiritists consider Jesus to be the greatest moral example for humankind. They believe he incarnated on earth to demonstrate the path to achieve spiritual perfection. In this way, Spiritism identifies as a form of Christianity, claiming it is based on Jesus Christ's teachings, despite having an interpretation that differs from those held by mainstream Christian denominations. The Gospels are studied and interpreted in Spiritism; it asserts that some of Jesus' words and actions are clarified in the light of the spiritual phenomena (presented as law of nature, and not as something miraculous)."
Spiritism - Wikipedia
OTOH the Christian doctrine of Universalism is much different:
"Christian Universalism is a school of Christian theology which includes the belief in the doctrine of universal reconciliation, the view that all human beings will ultimately be restored to a right relationship with God in Heaven..."
Christian Universalism - Wikipedia
"What is Christian Universalism? Christian universalism is a belief in the simple Bible truth that Jesus Christ is the "Lamb who takes away the sin of the world." He is the promised Messiah of whom the prophets of the Old Covenant foresaw; Jesus is the Savior of the world, He is the "Second Adam," through Whom all mankind will be restored to God's original image, He is the only way to the Father, the only begotton Son of God Who gave His life for the world. We believe He is king and judge of the universe, and owner of all Creation, and that His purpose for the ages (aions) is to bring all things under His government and reconciled with Himself."
Christian Universalism: What is it?
Where is support for the doctrine of Universalism in the Scriptures?
"Jesus is the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Jesus gave His flesh as bread "for the life of the world" (John 6:51). "He gives life to the world" (John 6:33). He is "the light of the world" (John 8:12). "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). "He is the Savior of ALL people" (1 Timothy 4:10), "the Savior of the world" (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14). "He appeared to destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8)."
and many more, continued at:
Universalism is Not in the Bible
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Dartman
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No. The text doesn't mention abolishing reigning. The end of Jesus being the ultimate authority on the earth
comes when Jesus hands over the kingdom to his God;
1 Cor 15: 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
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Dartman
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No, all the prophets mentioned in verse 24 have foretold the coming, and ministry of Jesus, the "prophet like unto" Moses.
Close. You've left out the very critical promise made to Abraham of inheritance of the EARTH, specifically to Abraham, "all the land which thou seest".ClementofA said:
All "families of the peoples" WILL adore God .... but ONLY the "few" within all "families" that loved and obeyed Him. The "many" that hate Him, will be destroyed;ClementofA said:
Matt 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Rev 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before the throne; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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I can't quite say He's not the source of evil, given the reasons I've previously stated. However, I should probably make it more clear that also don't think this means that He's running around wreaking havoc just for kicks and giggles either, like Dennis the Menace on steroids.Besides that, there are things considered "evil" which are subjectively determined as such depending on denomination, religion, culture, etc., so that muddies the waters enough to give the topic a thread of its own elsewhere.
Yes, I think you may have explained this already, but I'm still of the mind that if Adam was indeed perfect, if he was made righteous before God, and in a perfect state, he would not have rebelled.
However, I suppose it's quite possible that even in his apparent rebellion, he was still perfect, and what has been historically considered his "messing up" really wasn't a mess-up at all, but just another perfect, righteous act performed by a perfect, righteous being.
But again I ask: If a perfect Adam could ruin a perfect setting with just a flick of his free will, then who's to say this won't happen again in heaven one day (assuming we have free will in heaven)? Maybe that's another heavier topic deserving of its own thread too. It's not a question that has to be answered here unless someone wants to take a stab at it. It's just food for thought.
I love Romans 5, because it elaborates on what 1 Corinthians 15:22 puts forth, that the fall and salvation from the fall both follow the same pattern, just in different directions:
Just as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. It's the same all, otherwise the sentence wouldn't make sense. It would be like saying something like "Just as I drove a VW to work as a teen, so also does my daughter eat grapes on Tuesdays."
And Romans 5:15 echoes 1 Corinthians 15:22:
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Same "the many". There's a parallel being drawn between the effects on mankind of Adam's single transgression and Christ's single sacrifice. Just as... so also.
Then there's another parallel illustrated in Romans 5:17:
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.Then, as if Paul couldn't make this clear enough (maybe while under the influence of Divine Inspiration he foresaw the endless debates over this that would take place in the future
), we have Romans 5:18:
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.One act of transgression brought condemnation upon all.
One act of righteousness brought justification upon all.
Same all.
Romans 5:19:
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
One act of disobedience by one individual affected everyone
One act of obedience by one individual affected everyone.
Now, I can see it already: Some will jump in and argue that Romans 5:19 is saying that "the many and not all" are saved, but in order for that to work one would then have to conclude that "the many and not all" were made sinners by Adam's disobedience. It's the same "the many", either way, or else it wouldn't make sense grammatically.
Romans 5:20-21:
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
A clear (to me, anyway) demonstration that God sees your sin and raises you an abundance of grace. Every. Single. Time.
God wins (a statement that potentially inspires the Godwin-posts, ironically enough!).
Well, there are a couple ways to look at this.
There was the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 which could account for a lot of that impending-doom-speak people interpret as referring to post-mortem punishment for not believing in Christ.
However, as we've already seen, we are made alive in Christ the same way we were made dead in Adam. So if it was the same way, we didn't have to believe in Adam first before we were made dead in him. The whole being-made-dead-and-alive-again transaction was made waaaaay over our heads, and apparently our vote in the matter has not been required.
What believing does help do is give us a clearer outline of what went down, and what it means for us ultimately. That's why (I believe) that, as 1 Timothy 4:10 states, while God is, indeed, the Savior of all, He's especially the savior of those who believe, because knowing now that one's future is so bright they need to wear shades makes the remainder of life here on earth a heck of a lot more bearable than if one is wandering around thinking there's a good chance it's going to be all doom and gloom for eternity. Especially if one's particular denomination / religion comes with a handy list of "unforgivable" or "mortal" sins for one to constantly fret over possibly having committed.
The judgment in this verse can be at least a couple of things: The fall in AD 70, or the judgment that Christ took upon himself on the cross. In any case, it would be hasty for me to conclude that "the judgment" can only mean "torture for all eternity". Such a conclusion waters down Christ's sacrifice far too much for my tastes.
Well see that's just it: Paul didn't find salvation, it found him. That's as free-gift as it gets, imo.
Those verses have already been shared.
As I've said before, sin, rebellion, and unbelief are symptoms of being lost. "The lost" is who Christ came to save. To punish the lost for sinning is like punishing a tuberculosis patient for coughing. Especially if salvation from such things is supposedly a gift that God bestows on someone—if someone continues in those things, it's because God refrained from bestowing that transforming gift on them, in which case He's responsible for their condition, either way.
It's helpful to note that a person can be an inhabitant of a kingdom without actually inheriting it.
Far from it. Not sure where you're seeing that in my posts.
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Now we're going in circles, so I'll try and summarize the problems by highlighting the critical errors you hold to:
1. God is not the source of evil. Scripture does not say that He creates, bestows and imputes moral evil upon men, that causes men to sin. It does say, however, that God punish evil according to His righteousness and goodness. Evil is something void of God, not something from God, and to punish evil is in itself a good thing. From the erroneous idea that God somehow creates evil opens up to many strange teachings that can only be described as gnostic and anti-Christian. This has never been the position of the church for there is no Biblical or historical evidence of this.
I would even add that to proclaim that God is the source of evil is actually blasphemy and not something to be taken lightly, and I would further urge you you pray and seek counsel about this.
2. Sin has been used as a sickness in an analogy, but on the whole it is not described as a mere symptom in Scripture - this would be greatly reducing the severity of sin. This attitude and aloofness towards sin is problematic, for Scripture overwhelmingly describes sin as serious offenses that deserves serious punishment.
3. Scripture says nowhere that whoever disbelieves in Christ will be saved. It says the polar opposite in Mark 16:16: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." We can't simply take "all" (Romans 5:15) to mean universal salvation, as the word can be used in a wide and narrow sense, and ignore the call for repentance and belief in Jesus Christ. When looking at Romans 5:19, we can know that this is directed at believers if we read the whole chapter. It even begins with: "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." We can't ignore this context; we are justified by faith, not rebellion.
If your idea is that all who have died in their own sins and rebellion, rejecting God's grace, will be turned and believe, when exactly would you suggest that this transpire? And where is the Biblical evidence for this?
4. Your idea of judgment really goes hard against much Scripture. I can quote a lot, but Matthew 25:31-46 illustrates the judgment pretty well. Here again we see the word "inherit" in the context of believers.
Regarding Adam - I agree, this could really be its own discussion, so I'll leave it at this: The key difference does not rest in our states, but in God's promises for Adam and for people in Christ. To Adam He said if he sins, he would surely die. To people in Christ, God promises no more sin or death.
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Dartman
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This is precisely the reverse process of Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
AND, this also harmonizes perfectly with Jehovah/YHVH God's statement;
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Your breath/spirit is going to be breathed out, and return to God, who gave it.
YOU.... that which is YOU ... is returning to dust. Is "asleep in the dust" (Dan 12:2).
No, the Scripture informs us that the Jews cannot be trusted, but that the Scriptures must inform us how to interpret Scripture;Der Alter said:
Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Sorry, your feeble attempt to distort the text isn't persuasive.Der Alter said:
You know better than this bluster. I have already provided Scripture that states Jesus spoke to them in parables, and proved beyond doubt that both parables in the chapter begin with exactly the same phrase. Again, your bluster isn't persuasive... it's desperate.Der Alter said:
That's not how parables work, and everyone knows it. The parable is NOT discussing literal death, as proven by ALL other Scriptures dealing with death!! The parable, and the context, is discussing the fate of the Pharisees, and any others in Israel that reject the "one raised from the dead"!Der Alter said:
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Dartman
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1) Jehovah commanded His servant Jesus to "go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel";
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
2) All of the prophets, Jesus and the apostles ALSO explain the destruction of ALL wicked.
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Reigning is abolished when "all dominion, authority and power" are destroyed. And Christ's reign is "until" He hands over the kingdom, so it ends as well.
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My 7:14 says few were finding life, present tense, i.e. at that time. It doesn't speak of final destiny. This tells Israel's final destiny:
Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
Paul, apostle to the nations, speaks of the destiny of all people:
1Cor15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Tim.2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
Yes, even Judas, Pharoah, Sodom & Hitler.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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Yes, I think we are, as you are repeating things to which I've already responded, and I would be repeating myself as well with any further responses to those things. No worries, we can simply agree to disagree. Life goes on.
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Yes, I think we are, as you are repeating things to which I've already responded, and I would be repeating myself as well with any further responses to those things. No worries, we can simply agree to disagree. Life goes on.
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Well, at least we may have unity through faith in Jesus Christ, as our Lord and savior
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The Times
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Matthew 7 encompasses several parables, that teach....
Judging others
Ask, seek and knock
That narrow and wide gates
True and false prophets/apostles/teachers
True and false disciples/learners/students
The wise and the foolish builders
Parables are always meant to be applied to all as a learning lesson and these lessons would apply to the 1st century audience, as well as Christains of today.
Jesus is teaching a gospel that has a few who truly come to the fullness of Christ and this would be evident when Jesus said....
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8:10)
There is a vetting process happening to all of humanity, to determine whether they qualify to enter the Kingdom of heaven and be counted amongst Christ's heavenly barn numbers.
If we apply the authority of Jesus into our understating of scripture, we can quiet easily see, that there is a separation of sheep and goats happening, that determines the eternal state of that individual in the afterlife.
Judging others
Ask, seek and knock
That narrow and wide gates
True and false prophets/apostles/teachers
True and false disciples/learners/students
The wise and the foolish builders
Parables are always meant to be applied to all as a learning lesson and these lessons would apply to the 1st century audience, as well as Christains of today.
Jesus is teaching a gospel that has a few who truly come to the fullness of Christ and this would be evident when Jesus said....
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8:10)
There is a vetting process happening to all of humanity, to determine whether they qualify to enter the Kingdom of heaven and be counted amongst Christ's heavenly barn numbers.
If we apply the authority of Jesus into our understating of scripture, we can quiet easily see, that there is a separation of sheep and goats happening, that determines the eternal state of that individual in the afterlife.
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claninja
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And yet he still heals the Canaanite woman' daughter for her faith.
I agree with you. Jesus did come for the lost sheep of Israel. There was a remnant of Israel chosen by grace, while the rest of Israel was hardened, and eventually destroyed in the Jewish Roman war.
Romans 9:27-29
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigor and dispatch.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us children,
we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomor′rah.
Romans 11:1-6
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Eli′jah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have demolished thy altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba′al.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Again, I agree with you. God destroyed gentile nations whom he judged: Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, Babylon, etc..... God also Judged Israel multiple times throughout the old and new testament periods. However, the main judgment that Jesus preaches is for Israel.
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Dartman
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No, "the dominion, authority and power" being discussed are ENEMIES. Notice, death is the LAST enemy that is destroyed, the other enemies include any opposing dominion, authority and power.
1 Cor 15:24-26 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
The last act Jesus does, as the King of all the earth, is turn that authority over to his God, when Jehovah/YHVH God arrives to dwell on the earth with all the immortal righteous. After that act, Jehovah/YHVH God then shares His throne with Jesus, the Lamb.
Rev 21:2-5 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
At this point God is still in heaven, and Jesus has just finished judging those in the 2nd resurrection.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 22:3-4 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads.
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claninja
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I think they were meant to confuse the majority of the 1st century audience and fulfill prophecy.
Matthew 13:13-15
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says:
‘You shall indeed hear but never understand,
and you shall indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are heavy of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should perceive with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.’
You are correct, few will enter the kingdom. But who is Christ talking about here? Well first in Matthew 8:10, he says he has not seen faith like the centurion's (gentile) in all of the Israel. And he is telling this to those following him (Jews). He then says many will come from the east and west to sit with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. Who are the many? Most likely gentiles. while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. who are the sons of the kingdom? The chosen subjects of the kingdom of God were the Jews. As Christ states is Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you (Israel) and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.", it is Israel who will be judged. Few of Israel will be saved, while the rest will be hardened. Romans 11:1-6.
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Dartman
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Not according to Scripture.
You are choosing to ignore the "IF" conditions God has REPEATEDLY reminded us about!
John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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Dartman
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The "many and few" principle is not exclusive to Israel, it is perhaps even MORE applicable to the other "families of the earth".
1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
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