Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

stuart lawrence · Dec 14, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
I don't believe a thief was in a saved state. I don't believe Judas was always a thief. Thats your interpretation. At the beginning he was belonging to the Father as the other 11 were John 17 "Thine they were" and the father gave all 12 to Jesus. Jesus called all 12 to him and they were HIS disciples at that time, not the devils Matthew 10 etc, Jesus called them sheep, and to his sheep he said he gives eternal life and they know him.

Once again, produce a scripture that states the person who used to steal from the money bag was ever in a saved state
Jesus knew from the beginning Judas would betray him. I don't think he would at any point have been granted eternal life

LoveofTruth · Dec 14, 2016

jimmyjimmy said:
So we keep ourselves saved by our perfect obedience to God's law. Is that it?

We are kept by the power of God through faith. If we abide in him and he in us then God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work. This is how we show we are in faith and salvation by showing forth the fruit of the spirit and life of Christ in us. If a man says he has faith and does not have God working in him his faith is dead. Christ dwells in the heart by faith. In him is no sin, and if we abide in him we sin not and are overcomes through him. I can DO all things through Christ who strengthens me.

But if a man walks in unbelief, Christ cannot dwell in that heart. If he was once in the faith then through the deceitfulness of sin hardens his heart to have an evil heart of unbelief and departs from God then he is lost and can do nothing, until he rents and c ames back into having Christ formed in him again as we see with some of the Galatians who fell from grace. They began in the spirit by the hearing of faith then fell by adding law to the gospel and works etc, and tried to be made perfect by such things.

LoveofTruth · Dec 14, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Once again, produce a scripture that states the person who used to steal from the money bag was ever in a saved state
Jesus knew from the beginning Judas would betray him. I don't think he would at any point have been granted eternal life

Jesus called him his familiar friend whom he once trusted lifted up his heel against him. This shows that Judas was once trusted and his friend and saved once. Judas had his name blotted out of the book of the living and no longer written with the righteous. Showing that he was once righteous and in the book. Jesus told his disciples when they came back in the power of God and cast out devils to not rejoice that the devils are subject to them but to rejoice that their names are written in the lambs book of life. Judas also was in that book once and fell by transgression

I already shows that Jesus ordained 12 and called all 12 his sheep sent to the Lost sheep. This should be clear enough to the unbiased reader. But to the biased reader I fear no scripture will move them unless God shakes things

stuart lawrence · Dec 14, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
Jesus called him his familiar friend whom he once trusted lifted up his heel against him. This shows that Judas was once trusted and his friend and saved once. Judas had his name blotted out of the book of the living and no longer written with the righteous. Showing that he was once righteous and in the book. Jesus told his disciples when they came back in the power of God and cast out devils to not rejoice that the devils are subject to them but to rejoice that their names are written in the lambs book of life. Judas also was in that book once and fell by transgression

I already shows that Jesus ordained 12 and called all 12 his sheep sent to the Lost sheep. This should be clear enough to the unbiased reader. But to the biased reader I fear no scripture will move them unless God shakes things

Jesus called Judas for if he did not scripture would not be fulfilled.
Do you think Jesus changed his mind about Judas at some point and suddenly came to the conclusion he was a devil?
Judas OFTEN dipped into the money bag!
What was considered a persons righteousness under the old covenant?

LoveofTruth · Dec 14, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Do you think Jesus changed his mind about Judas at some point and suddenly came to the conclusion he was a devil?

Did God change his mind about Lucifer? Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways and in the truth and light and is an eternal being. Then he fell away and will end up in the lake of fire. This is a warning for all and the angels that sinned also. If God spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down to hell, take heed of your faith.

.

stuart lawrence · Dec 15, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
Did God change his mind about Lucifer? Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways and in the truth and light and is an eternal being. Then he fell away and will end up in the lake of fire. This is a warning for all and the angels that sinned also. If God spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down to hell, take heed of your faith.

.

Until you can provide scripture that states Judas was once saved this is going nowhere.
Judas was a thief who not once, but often stole from the purse with the funds I to support Jesus ministry
He constantly broke one of the Ten Commandments. Do you not believe God was aware of what he was doing? Why did Jesus not cast Judas out as one of the Twelve as he surely knew he was stealing from the purse?
Yet you say Judas was once righteous.
Righteousness under the old covenant( which Judas lived under) was obeying the law.
I am not antinomian. I hope you are not too

LoveofTruth · Dec 15, 2016

I encourage all to read this new post I made

God's Order in the Church vs Man's Order

TheMissingRib · Dec 18, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
chapter and verse for that thought?

they were lost, on their way to hell if they didn't repent. All we like sheep have gone astray....

but Jesus sent the apostles ( Judas included) as sheep in the midst of wolves to the lost sheep. They were also HIS disciples Judas included and not the devils, or any of them the devils ( including Judas) at that time, as scripture clearly teaches.

sometimes people have been taught a idea for so long by their teachers and that idea is just plain wrong. It is difficult to change wrong doctrine, but if we love the truth all things can be corrected. Judas was once saved and then fell by transgression.

Agree

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

ToBeLoved · Dec 20, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
But if a man walks in belief, Christ cannot dwell in that heart. If he was once in the faith then through the deceitfulness of sin hardens his heart to have an evil heart of unbelief and departs from God then he is lost and can do nothing, until he rents and c ames back into having Christ formed in him again as we see with some of the Galatians who fell from grace. They began in the spirit by the hearing of faith then fell by adding law to the gospel and works etc, and tried to be made perfect by such things.

Sin does not most of the time result in unbelief.

LoveofTruth · Dec 22, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Sin does not most of the time result in unbelief.

that should read if a man walks in unbelief".

and yes we read "of sin, because they believe not in me" whatsoever is not of faith is sin, etc

ToBeLoved · Dec 22, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
I don't believe a thief was in a saved state. I don't believe Judas was always a thief. Thats your interpretation. At the beginning he was belonging to the Father as the other 11 were John 17 "Thine they were" and the father gave all 12 to Jesus. Jesus called all 12 to him and they were HIS disciples at that time, not the devils Matthew 10 etc, Jesus called them sheep, and to his sheep he said he gives eternal life and they know him.

John 17:6-12
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Where are the two sentences that you stated above in John 17?

LoveofTruth · Dec 23, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
John 17:6-12
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Where are the two sentences that you stated above in John 17?

All the 12 )judas included) were given to Jesus and before they were even given to Jesus they all belonged to the Father. This is clear from the text. And while Jesus was with them he kept them in the word , but along the way one was lost , we read that he "fell by transgression" so he fell away from the place he was with God and was lost . This is very simple to see from the text, this falling away of judas was also prophesied and scripture is always fulfilled .This prophesy is on a few scriptures one is in Psalms 79 as also quoted on Avts 1.The other about Judas as Kesus familiar friend whom he once trusted betraying him. ptopjecy shows what will happen not that God made him sin or that he was forced to fall. Judas was once a sheep of Jesus given to Jesus by the Father and sent to the lost sheep.

And how Judas was before he met Jesus and many years after he met him at the end are different situations. One he was saved the other he was fallen away and lost.

ToBeLoved · Dec 23, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
And how Judas was before he met Jesus and many years after he met him at the end are different situations. One he was saved the other he was fallen away and lost.

Judas hung himself shortly after Jesus death.

ToBeLoved · Dec 23, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
All the 12 )judas included) were given to Jesus and before they were even given to Jesus they all belonged to the Father. This is clear from the text. And while Jesus was with them he kept them in the word , but along the way one was lost , we read that he "fell by transgression" so he fell away from the place he was with God and was lost . This is very simple to see from the text, this falling away of judas was also prophesied and scripture is always fulfilled .This prophesy is on a few scriptures one is in Psalms 79 as also quoted on Avts 1.The other about Judas as Kesus familiar friend whom he once trusted betraying him. ptopjecy shows what will happen not that God made him sin or that he was forced to fall. Judas was once a sheep of Jesus given to Jesus by the Father and sent to the lost sheep.

You read a lot into the text that it just doesn't say.

So how was Jesus perfect if He lost one of the Father's? Remember Jesus was the PERFECT sacrifice.

LoveofTruth · Dec 24, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
You read a lot into the text that it just doesn't say.

So how was Jesus perfect if He lost one of the Father's? Remember Jesus was the PERFECT sacrifice.

Jesus is perfect and if men depart from him and are lost, then it is not Jesus that made them lost they chose to depart and they fell. Jesus didn't lose one of the fathers, the text says, none of them is lost but one..."is lost" is different than saying hoops i lost one.

Men become lost when they depart from the living God through and evil heart of unbelief and this is brought about by the hardness of their hearts in sin

LoveofTruth · Dec 24, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
You read a lot into the text that it just doesn't say.

I dint believe I am reading into the text, but scripture says a lot about this issue all ver that place.

Sammy-San · Jun 11, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
when a person enters into unbelief they open themselves to satan, and the actual betrayal, starts in the heart but is done when Judas actually betrayed Jesus. The issue is not the timing or when Satan entered into him. But the fact that he once had the trust of jesus and was a sheep and saved and then betrayed Jesus and had his name blotted out of the book of life and went to his own place and it was better he had not ben born.

Why did Judas betray Jesus?

Answer: While we cannot be absolutely certain why Judas betrayed Jesus, some things are certain. First, although Judas was chosen to be one of the Twelve (John 6:64), all scriptural evidence points to the fact that he never believed Jesus to be God. He even may not have been convinced that Jesus was the Messiah (as Judas understood it). Unlike the other disciples that called Jesus “Lord,” Judas never used this title for Jesus and instead called him “Rabbi,” which acknowledged Jesus as nothing more than a teacher. While other disciples at times made great professions of faith and loyalty (John 6:68; 11:16), Judas never did so and appears to have remained silent. This lack of faith in Jesus is the foundation for all other considerations listed below. The same holds true for us. If we fail to recognize Jesus as God incarnate, and therefore the only One who can provide forgiveness for our sins—and the eternal salvation that comes with it—we will be subject to numerous other problems that stem from a wrong view of God.

Second, Judas not only lacked faith in Christ, but he also had little or no personal relationship with Jesus. When the synoptic gospels list the Twelve, they are always listed in the same general order with slight variations (Matthew 10:2-4; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:14-16). The general order is believed to indicate the relative closeness of their personal relationship with Jesus. Despite the variations, Peter and the brothers James and John are always listed first, which is consistent with their relationships with Jesus. Judas is always listed last, which may indicate his relative lack of a personal relationship with Christ. Additionally, the only documented dialogue between Jesus and Judas involves Judas being rebuked by Jesus after his greed-motivated remark to Mary (John 12:1-8), Judas’ denial of his betrayal (Matthew 26:25), and the betrayal itself (Luke 22:48).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 11, 2017

Right. Jesus chose a devil to be a disciple. Sorry, that is not possible. God does not choose evil people to spread the good news. Yes, God can use people that are evil for His good purposes, but God does not ordain or set into His holy ministry somebody who is an actual devil. It makes no sense. What makes more sense is that Judas simply fell by his transgression as the Scriptures say.

...

Sammy-San · Jun 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Right. Jesus chose a devil to be a disciple. Sorry, that is not possible. God does not choose evil people to spread the good news. Yes, God can use people that are evil for His good purposes, but God does not ordain or set into His holy ministry somebody who is an actual devil. It makes no sense. What makes more sense is that Judas simply fell by his transgression as the Scriptures say.

...

Do you believe these quotes? The Truth About Judas - Betrayer of Christ by David Wilkerson June 15, 1992

Fact Number One: The High Priests and Religious

Leaders Did Not Need Judas to Seize Christ.

Jesus could easily have been captured without Judas' help. He had taught in the synagogues, streets and marketplaces. His face was one of the most recognizable in all Israel and Judah. Scripture says the people followed Him even to the quiet places where He withdrew to pray!

Jesus said to the arresting mob, "Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me" (Matthew 26:55). In other words: "I am well known to you - My face is familiar. Why this sudden attack as though I were a complete stranger to you?"

Clearly Judas' kiss was not needed to identify Christ - because Christ's enemies knew Him well already! His face was emblazoned on their consciences. And the aura of His mighty presence was itself enough to identify Him.

Indeed - it is clear the perpetrators of this crime did not need Judas. The fact is, they despised him. They treated him lightly, using him and then quickly pushing him aside. When he repented suddenly of his traitorous deed, flinging the money to the ground and crying, "I have betrayed the innocent blood" (Matthew 27:4), the Jewish leaders merely laughed at him.

They said, "What is that to us? See thou to that" (verse 4), meaning, "That's your problem - take care of it yourself. We have no need of you or your tears!"

Judas wasn't needed for Jesus' trial or crucifixion, either. In fact, he wasn't around for either one. By the time Christ went to the Cross, Judas was already dead, having committed suicide within twenty-four hours of his awful deed.

Also, I heard Christians can't be demon possessed.

Marvin Knox · Jun 11, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.
So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.
so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

I've read your post several times and looked at all of the scriptures noted.

Is there somewhere there where it tells us that Judas was "saved" or is that found some place else?
Or is that merely an assumption you arrived at on your own because of a preconceived bias on your part?

Come to think of it - was anyone actually "saved" and justified before God before Jesus shed His blood at Calvary?

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

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