Do Jesus words trump the apostles or anyone else's, that might be in conflict or contradictory...?

Neogaia777 said:

Do Jesus words trump the apostles or anyone else's, that might be in conflict or contradictory...?

Take 1 John, cause it's the easiest and clearest, it seems to say that were all sinners but can be forgiven, and also, that if you sin at all you are of the devil and not God's child...

Do we then look to Jesus and his words about such matters for the answer(s) in light of this...? And things like these...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

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Things is, I'm not sure if we can know. Jesus never wrote down a single word of the Bible, not even any of the lost books as far as I know. So we really only have what people say he said.

ciesielski0 said:

Scripturally do Jesus' words in The gospel "trump" the apostles words in their epistles? I would say no way. Are not the words of the apostles in the epistles ALSO the words of Christ? Yes they are so therefore how can one section of scripture "trump" another section? It can't.

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Well, I'll give you an example of what I am talking about. Let's go to 2 Corinthians 11:26-28. In verse 28 Paul states outright that the anxieties (Greek μέριμνα) concerning all the churches came upon him daily. And yet in Philippians 4:6 this same apostle commanded "Be anxious (same Greek word μεριμνᾶτε) for nothing." Same word used both times, which means despite his very best efforts Paul was not always obeying his own teachings.

Does this mean I don't fully respect the apostle Paul? God forbid. As I have stated elsewhere on this site, I have dedicated my entire life to the study of God's word, without profit, without reward, without desire for anything other than to please Him. And I have sacrificed career, pleasures, EVERYTHING, preparing for the teaching ministry for the last 30 years in order to do so. So do I respect and honor and value scripture, including the teachings of the apostles? Of course I do. But the teachings of the apostles are not to be taken as on the same level as that of the teachings of Jesus. If you do not learn this lesson here, you most certainly will learn it in Heaven. What comes out of His mouth is flawless, for He is God. What comes out of the mouths of His prophets and servants can sometimes unfortunately be flawed, even if ever so slightly.

[Staff edit].

Neogaia777 said:

What they could remember for sure that he said and did during his three and one half years with them, the rest of all that he said and did, it is said that the world could not contain them... (John 21:25)

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But the Gospels were written decades later, and it's not even agreed on by scholars if they were written by knowable authors or not—it's suspected by some they were anonymous and the names weren't added on until later. Which would actually make sense because the writers of the Gospels never say "I" addressing themselves as if they were eyewitnesses, only saying "the disciples" and really not giving an indication they were directly present at the events.

Can I hire someone to properly spell correct for me? I pay by the mistake.

Neogaia777 said:

Do Jesus words trump the apostles or anyone else's, that might be in conflict or contradictory...?

Take 1 John, cause it's the easiest and clearest, it seems to say that were all sinners but can be forgiven, and also, that if you sin at all you are of the devil and not God's child...

Do we then look to Jesus and his words about such matters for the answer(s) in light of this...? And things like these...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Click to expand...

Jesus inspired all of the Bible so how can he contradict himself?

Neogaia777 said:

Do Jesus words trump the apostles or anyone else's, that might be in conflict or contradictory...?

Take 1 John, cause it's the easiest and clearest, it seems to say that were all sinners but can be forgiven, and also, that if you sin at all you are of the devil and not God's child...

Do we then look to Jesus and his words about such matters for the answer(s) in light of this...? And things like these...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Click to expand...

Certainly Jesus trumps John. There are times when I take that approach. But I’m not sure this is one of them. As you point out, John himself combines the statement that those in Christ can’t sin with the realization that we need God’s forgiveness.

Like many questions of NT exegesis, there are a number of understandings of what the passages mean. One commentary identifies 3 common approaches, each of which comes in at least 2 versions. My own understanding is that John is referring to a possibility for someone who is fully in Christ. But this isn’t a situation we can maintain all the time. We all fall short of this ideal some of the time.

pescador said:

1 John 1:3 says "What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). This is obviously referring to those who are not Christians. John and his group already have fellowship with God and Jesus Christ. He's inviting others to join them.

1 John 1:5a says "Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you". His audience have never heard the gospel message.

1 John 2 starts "(My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.) But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One, and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world." Notice that he is now addressing "my little children", a different group than the first group of unbelievers who have never heard the gospel. "The old commandment is the word that you have already heard."

Then he writes, ""The one who says he is in the light but still hates his fellow Christian is still in the darkness. The one who loves his fellow Christian resides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his fellow Christian is in the darkness, walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes."

This is followed by "I am writing to you, little children, that your sins have been forgiven because of his name." This is in direct contrast to 1 John 1:9 that many people quote saying we (Christians) must ask for forgiveness for our sins.

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The forgiveness we ask for is for straying from the born-again pathway we are on. It is not about losing salvation.

Neogaia777 said:

Yet none of us can become 100% completely sinless, or can we be...? And/or, Does that even matter...? Is that missing the point, the point actually not being sin...? If it isn't, what is (the point)...?

That's why I asked about the backslider, would he (God) rather we maintain our closeness or relationship with him regardless of wherever we are currently at, with sin, regardless of sin...?

And if 1 John 3:4-10 was talking about a backslider...?

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Those of us who have confessed Jesus as Savior are born again (Spiritually birthed). Nothing can remove us from that Godly embrace. To argue otherwise is pointless. Those of us who stray from the path God has set us on are not again lost in sin. Our salvation is secure. We repent for straying from the path. Instantly, we are right back on it.

CrystalDragon said:

But the Gospels were written decades later, and it's not even agreed on by scholars if they were written by knowable authors or not—it's suspected by some they were anonymous and the names weren't added on until later. Which would actually make sense because the writers of the Gospels never say "I" addressing themselves as if they were eyewitnesses, only saying "the disciples" and really not giving an indication they were directly present at the events.

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The Holy Spirit is the interpreter and applier of all that is written, from Matthew through Revelation. He Spiritually moved writers to write. Case closed.

CrystalDragon said:

But the Gospels were written decades later, and it's not even agreed on by scholars if they were written by knowable authors or not—it's suspected by some they were anonymous and the names weren't added on until later. Which would actually make sense because the writers of the Gospels never say "I" addressing themselves as if they were eyewitnesses, only saying "the disciples" and really not giving an indication they were directly present at the events.

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The Gospels were written by the Holy Spirit, man only transcribed what the Holy Spirit told him. ( 2 Peter 1:21 )

Winken said:

The Holy Spirit is the interpreter and applier of all that is written, from Matthew through Revelation. He Spiritually moved writers to write. Case closed.

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I agree with you but I would add Genesis to Malachi

Hidden In Him said:

Hey Neogaia! How's life?

About your question regarding 1st John, I'd look to John himself in context to answer the apparent "contradictions." And in the case I believe you are referring to (1 John 2:1, compared with 1 John 3:1-10), the answer is that John was using the analogy of adopted children of God (1 John 3:10). As such, John is never talking about sinless perfection in the letter, but about sons who enter into obedience, respect the Father's commands, and do everything in their power to fulfill His wishes. The sinners in this context are those who refuse to honor the Father's Lordship over their lives, and so give themselves over to sinful behavior by willfully rebelling against His wishes.

But as for Jesus' words trumping those of the apostles, you can best believe they do brother. This might get into the issue of infallibility again, and I've been accused of being a "false prophet" once too many times already this week. But yes, His words and His teachings bear more authority, and always will.

God bless you, Bro!

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I would offer the very definition of apostle and disciple is one who faithfully follows and obeys their Rabbis teachings.

Either the apostles have been faithful or unfaithful in bringing their Rabbis teachings forward.

Strip out inerrant and infallible for a moment.

The question is were the apostles faithful to the message and teachings of their Rabbi Jesus Christ?

Yes of course they were.

Hidden In Him said:

Well, I'll give you an example of what I am talking about. Let's go to 2 Corinthians 11:26-28. In verse 28 Paul states outright that the anxieties (Greek μέριμνα) concerning all the churches came upon him daily. And yet in Philippians 4:6 this same apostle commanded "Be anxious (same Greek word μεριμνᾶτε) for nothing." Same word used both times, which means despite his very best efforts Paul was not always obeying his own teachings.

Does this mean I don't fully respect the apostle Paul? God forbid. As I have stated elsewhere on this site, I have dedicated my entire life to the study of God's word, without profit, without reward, without desire for anything other than to please Him. And I have sacrificed career, pleasures, EVERYTHING, preparing for the teaching ministry for the last 30 years in order to do so. So do I respect and honor and value scripture, including the teachings of the apostles? Of course I do. But the teachings of the apostles are not to be taken as on the same level as that of the teachings of Jesus. If you do not learn this lesson here, you most certainly will learn it in Heaven. What comes out of His mouth is flawless, for He is God. What comes out of the mouths of His prophets and servants can sometimes unfortunately be flawed, even if ever so slightly.

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Can i ask you a question??? What words of Jesus are you referring to that are flawless??? (I agree they are flawless and inerrant). The words of Jesus spoken in the gospels?? Who wrote 2 of them??? Apostles!! So to follow your train of thought then since they were words written down by apostles then they can be flawed!!! How about Mark and Luke?? They weren't written by apostles but tradition has Mark coming from the sayings and teachings of Peter (he was Peters interpreter see Ireneaus Against Heresies 3.1.3) and Luke a companion of Paul researched his gospel. So how can you then claim that Jesus words are flawless (which they are) and not claim the apostles words/epistles are? If 3 of the apostles had a hand in the writing of the Gospels, and hence Jesus' words, I am sure that God has also made their epistles fand their teaching flawless as well.
Regarding the verse you gave a little context is needed. Paul is recounting his history as an apostle in 2 Cor. 26-27, and in the verses preceding as well. In verse 28 if you the word you cited is also translated as CARE. In many translation the word anxiety is not used but it is mentioned his concern for the care of the churches. It is STRONGS number 3308 and is translated as care in the verses using the Englishmans Concordance (see verses Matt 13:22, MK 4:19. Luke 8:14 and 21:34 I Peter 5:7 and 2 cor 11:28). The context of the verse is that in addition to all he has gone thru he has concern for the care of the churches AS A SHEPHERD SHOULD!!!! Even if your point was "correct" it would still NOT mean that the apsotles message and writings were false since even if Paul WAS anxious he is still a man and a sinner and the text would be displaying his fragile self, just as scripture had displayed the warts and sin of David BUT he was a man after Gods own heart AND wrote most of the psalms. So to follow your train of thought, and to be consistent with it, the psalms would also be flawed.
ALL SCRIPTURE is flawless since it was inspired by God Himself and thus ALL are the words of God from the OT, NT, the words of Jesus and the words of the apostles. ALL is equal and inspired!!! Just as one attribute of God does not rise above another one saying or word of scripture does not rise above the other!!

2 Cor 11:28

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care
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choorís toón parektós hee epístasís moi hee kath heeméran hee mérimna

Neogaia777 said:

Do Jesus words trump the apostles or anyone else's, that might be in conflict or contradictory...?

Take 1 John, cause it's the easiest and clearest, it seems to say that were all sinners but can be forgiven, and also, that if you sin at all you are of the devil and not God's child...

Do we then look to Jesus and his words about such matters for the answer(s) in light of this...? And things like these...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Click to expand...

I guess it depends on how we look at it: Jesus mission was specific. He came to establish the kingdom of God and redeem mankind from sin. The apostles were to spread the message of what Jesus did. Moreover, they could not have done this if not inspired by the Spirit of God. And Jesus himself said how can a kingdom stand if it's members fight each other? So how can there can what the apostles said contradict Christ's sayings?

Neogaia777 said:

Do Jesus words trump the apostles or anyone else's, that might be in conflict or contradictory...?

Take 1 John, cause it's the easiest and clearest, it seems to say that were all sinners but can be forgiven, and also, that if you sin at all you are of the devil and not God's child...

Do we then look to Jesus and his words about such matters for the answer(s) in light of this...? And things like these...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Click to expand...

definitely yes.
and so dose other cases earlier (in the old testament) where God is talking directly, like in genesis, and the 10 commandment. and other cases that its Cleary saying "said the lord" or anything that means god was talking himself.
anything else can be wrong.
so better trust only this texts as true universal teachings. that are still relevant today.

Neogaia777 said:

Do Jesus words trump the apostles or anyone else's, that might be in conflict or contradictory...?

Take 1 John, cause it's the easiest and clearest, it seems to say that were all sinners but can be forgiven, and also, that if you sin at all you are of the devil and not God's child...

Do we then look to Jesus and his words about such matters for the answer(s) in light of this...? And things like these...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Click to expand...

There is absolutely no contradiction
In the words your pointing out.
None
Zero.
There is nothing to be reconciled.