Jesus' commandments - opposed to His Fathers Commandments? - Really?

BobRyan · May 16, 2017

Bob S said:
Okay, since you are never wrong, why would Isaiah relate the worshiping on Sabbath in the new earth along with going out and being among the dead bodies

1. Isaiah never says "going out and being among the dead bodies".

Isaiah 66
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

Mal 4
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Rev 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

All mankind means "all Mankind"
And in the New Earth - that "from Sabbath to Sabbath" cycle is eternal.

The wicked are reduced to ashes by that unquenchable fire - that devours them as they surround the city of God after the 1000 years... after the second resurrection.

Now back to the topic of this thread...

BobRyan · May 16, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
If someone ate diseased beef, such as getting mad cow disease, was that a SIN? .

Even after the Lev 11 text of God's word told them not to eat beef with mad cow disease? Or do you mean "that they did not know had mad cow disease"???

In case you mean "deliberately eating beef with mad cow disease"...

1 Cor 3
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

1 Cor 6
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

James 4
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Lev 11
44 For I am the Lord your God. You shall therefore consecrate yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 45 For I am the Lord who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
46 ‘This is the law of the animals and the birds and every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth, 47 to distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.’”

1stcenturylady · May 16, 2017

BobRyan said:
Even after the Lev 11 text of God's word told them not to eat beef with mad cow disease? Or do you mean "that they did not know had mad cow disease"???

In case you mean "deliberately eating beef with mad cow disease"...

1 Cor 3
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

1 Cor 6
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

James 4
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Lev 11
44 For I am the Lord your God. You shall therefore consecrate yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creeping thing that creeps on the earth. 45 For I am the Lord who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
46 ‘This is the law of the animals and the birds and every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth, 47 to distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.’”

What I'm saying, and I can see why you are confused, is is it still a sin to knowingly eat unclean meat? Say, pork?

BobRyan · Jun 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
What I'm saying, and I can see why you are confused, is is it still a sin to knowingly eat unclean meat? Say, pork?

1. Lev 11 says not to eat diseased meat or rats... do you approve of that instruction from scripture?
2. Do you have an example of any New Testament saints saying they are eating rats or ... pork?
3. Is it "confusing" to have the Bible say not to eat diseased meat or rats???
4. Genesis 7 and 8 we find the clean vs unclean animal subject surface long before there is Jew-vs-Gentile. Are you saying that you find that confusing?

As for this thread -- is Jesus at war with His Father? Does He cancel the Word of His Father with His own word? Is that the example He gave us???

1stcenturylady · Jun 6, 2017

BobRyan said:
1. Lev 11 says not to eat diseased meat or rats... do you approve of that instruction from scripture?
2. Do you have an example of any New Testament saints saying they are eating rats or ... pork?
3. Is it "confusing" to have the Bible say not to eat diseased meat or rats???
4. Genesis 7 and 8 we find the clean vs unclean animal subject surface long before there is Jew-vs-Gentile. Are you saying that you find that confusing?

As for this thread -- is Jesus at war with His Father? Does He cancel the Word of His Father with His own word? Is that the example He gave us???

The real question is, if you happened to eat a diseased rat, would it be a SIN? That is the only point. Paul already said that "all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable." The stomach is for food, and food for the stomach. Do you know what that means?

BobRyan · Jun 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
The real question is, if you happened to eat a diseased rat, would it be a SIN? That is the only point.

Paul already said that doing things to destroy your body is not approved of by God - in 1Cor 6 and 1Cor 3. Hence no surprise that God's Word in Lev 11 forbids eating diseased meat, rats, cats, dogs, being a drug addict. And Lev 11 points out the same things as being a problem for humans, and against God's Word, against His Command.

in the NT - "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.

Under the New Covenant God writes "His LAW on our heart and mind" Jeremiah 31:31-33

1stcenturylady · Jun 6, 2017

BobRyan said:
Paul already said that doing things to destroy your body is not approved of by God - in 1Cor 6 and 1Cor 3. Hence no surprise that God's Word in Lev 11 forbids eating diseased meat, rats, cats, dogs, being a drug addict. And Lev 11 points out the same things as being a problem for humans, and against God's Word, against His Command.

in the NT - "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4.

Under the New Covenant God writes "His LAW on our heart and mind" Jeremiah 31:31-33

Am I to assume you mean yes it is a sin? Paul already said it was lawful.

BobRyan · Jun 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Am I to assume you mean yes it is a sin? Paul already said it was lawful.

Paul never said that eating diseased meat or rats was lawful - and we both know it.

What is more - if you went to a restaurant and they said "all we have on the menu this evening is diseased meat and/or rats... which would you prefer?" -- you too would not eat there.

This is the incredibly easy part.

The result? Jesus' commandments not at all at war with nor negating the Commandments of God.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Paul said he was even more strict about doing that - than were the gentile Christians.

1stcenturylady · Jun 6, 2017

BobRyan said:
Paul never said that eating diseased meat or rats was lawful - and we both know it.

But is it a SIN?

BTW, you misinterpreted 1 Corinthians 6 as doing harm to the body. It had nothing to do with food - that was lawful, if not helpful. What he is referring to regarding our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit had to do with sexual sin. Read it in context.

Bob, Please give me the verses in 1 Cor. 3 you want me to read. Thanks.

BobRyan · Jun 6, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
But is it a SIN?

BTW, you misinterpreted 1 Corinthians 6 as doing harm to the body

You need to re-read 1 Cor 3, 1 Cor 6 if you don't think it forbids doing yourself bodily harm.

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.

1 Cor 3
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

You are striving too hard to gain the right to diseased meat and rats. We both know you don't want to eat that stuff.

Isaiah 66 - the end of the world
And His indignation to His enemies.
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

1stcenturylady · Jun 6, 2017

BobRyan said:
You need to re-read 1 Cor 3, 1 Cor 6 if you don't think it forbids doing yourself bodily harm.

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.

1 Cor 3
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

You are striving too hard to gain the right to diseased meat and rats. We both know you don't want to eat that stuff.

Isaiah 66 - the end of the world
And His indignation to His enemies.
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

Personally, I hardly eat meat at all. But the point still is what you are quoting is about SEXUAL SIN, and not about what you eat. Both the stomach and the food we consume will all be destroyed. But we must not join our spirit with a harlot in sexual sin, for then we are joining the Holy Spirit with a harlot. God forbid!

12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power just as he raised up the Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Don’t you realize that your bodies are actually parts and members of Christ? So should I take part of Christ and join him to a prostitute? Never! 16 And don’t you know that if a man joins himself to a prostitute she becomes a part of him and he becomes a part of her? For God tells us in the Scripture that in his sight the two become one person. 17 But if you give yourself to the Lord, you and Christ are joined together as one person.

18 That is why I say to run from sex sin. No other sin affects the body as this one does. When you sin this sin it is against your own body. 19 Haven’t you yet learned that your body is the home of the Holy Spirit God gave you, and that he lives within you? Your own body does not belong to you. 20 For God has bought you with a great price. So use every part of your body to give glory back to God because he owns it.

BobRyan · Jun 7, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Personally, I hardly eat meat at all. But the point still is what you are quoting is about SEXUAL SIN,

In that chapter God condemns "sin against the body" and in Lev 11 God condemns the eating of diseased meat and rats.

Now suppose for a moment that you went to a doctor and the doctor said "you really need to stop eating diseased meat and rats - it is giving you a lot of health problems".

Then you respond "ok fine - but tell me this, are you saying that because is is in the Word of God in Leviticus 11, or for some other reason?".

And the doctor responds "As it turns out - I am an atheist - I don't care at all what the Bible says about not eating diseased meat and rats - I am telling you to stop, as a health professional".

Then you respond "ok will do - just as long as it is not based on obedience to the Word of God in Leviticus 11".

1 Cor 6 and 1 Cor 3 are one of the many reasons why we tell new converts they cannot engage in drug abuse - sins against the body. The body as the temple of God... God cares about it according to even the NT. We are responsible before God for what we do with what He has given us.

But as the parable given above shows - it simply makes "no sense" to plead for rebellion against Lev 11 "until" a doctor reminds us that in fact we need to take that command seriously.

1stcenturylady · Jun 7, 2017

BobRyan said:
In that chapter God condemns "sin against the body" and in Lev 11 God condemns the eating of diseased meat and rats.

Now suppose for a moment that you went to a doctor and the doctor said "you really need to stop eating diseased meat and rats - it is giving you a lot of health problems".

Then you respond "ok fine - but tell me this, are you saying that because is is in the Word of God in Leviticus 11, or for some other reason?".

And the doctor responds "As it turns out - I am an atheist - I don't care at all what the Bible says about not eating diseased meat and rats - I am telling you to stop, as a health professional".

Then you respond "ok will do - just as long as it is not based on obedience to the Word of God in Leviticus 11".

1 Cor 6 and 1 Cor 3 are one of the many reasons why we tell new converts they cannot engage in drug abuse - sins against the body. The body as the temple of God... God cares about it according to even the NT. We are responsible before God for what we do with what He has given us.

But as the parable given above shows - it simply makes "no sense" to plead for rebellion against Lev 11 "until" a doctor reminds us that in fact we need to take that command seriously.

A doctor will also tell you to stay away from red meat. Guess what those are "clean."

Are you going to say that if you get food poisoning, God will hold it against you as a sin, punishable by death?

1stcenturylady · Jun 7, 2017

BobRyan said:
In that chapter God condemns "sin against the body" and in Lev 11 God condemns the eating of diseased meat and rats.

Now suppose for a moment that you went to a doctor and the doctor said "you really need to stop eating diseased meat and rats - it is giving you a lot of health problems".

Then you respond "ok fine - but tell me this, are you saying that because is is in the Word of God in Leviticus 11, or for some other reason?".

And the doctor responds "As it turns out - I am an atheist - I don't care at all what the Bible says about not eating diseased meat and rats - I am telling you to stop, as a health professional".

Then you respond "ok will do - just as long as it is not based on obedience to the Word of God in Leviticus 11".

1 Cor 6 and 1 Cor 3 are one of the many reasons why we tell new converts they cannot engage in drug abuse - sins against the body. The body as the temple of God... God cares about it according to even the NT. We are responsible before God for what we do with what He has given us.

But as the parable given above shows - it simply makes "no sense" to plead for rebellion against Lev 11 "until" a doctor reminds us that in fact we need to take that command seriously.

But the sins against the body are not about food in those two chapters. It is about sexual immorality, specifically a prostitute in the temple of Diana. They are idol worshipers and demon possessed.

Bob, don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating eating diseased meats or rats. What I'm trying to point out to you is that in God's sight if you had to eat a rat to stay alive, it wouldn't be a sin. God has already called them clean, and we are not to disobey Him, choosing the law instead of His grace that His Son paid for.

BobRyan · Jun 7, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
A doctor will also tell you to stay away from red meat. Guess what those are "clean."

As it turns out - Lev 11 condemns eating "diseased meat" and it includes the clean animals as "diseased meat" if they die of sickness or are sick at the time they are killed etc.

But you did not answer the question in the illustration given.

Are you going to say that if you get food poisoning, God will hold it against you as a sin, punishable by death?

If I get food poisoning because I chose to ignore the Word of God - eat rats, eat diseased meat in defiance of God's Word? You are asking me if God "will notice"???

1stcenturylady · Jun 7, 2017

BobRyan said:
As it turns out - Lev 11 condemns eating "diseased meat" and it includes the clean animals as "diseased meat" if they die of sickness or are sick at the time they are killed etc.

But you did not answer the question in the illustration given.

If I get food poisoning because I chose to ignore the Word of God - eat rats, eat diseased meat in defiance of God's Word? You are asking me if God "will notice"???

In other words, even though God has said those meats are now clean, you are going to call Him a liar and stay under the law?

Again, I'm not advocating eating meat at all. I'm saying what God declares clean, is clean.

BobRyan · Jun 7, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
But the sins against the body are not about food in those two chapters.

In James 2 - we are given two examples of Commandments and sin - but neither James nor Paul argue for this being "the exhaustive list" as we all know by now. Hence the "existence" of Leviticus 11 - "Scripture" that both Paul and James knew about.

Bob, don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating eating diseased meats or rats. What I'm trying to point out to you is that in God's sight if you had to eat a rat to stay alive, it wouldn't be a sin.

What is your text for that?

All Daniel's three friends had to do "to stay alive" was tie their shoes when the music sounded. They chose obedience to God "instead".

All Daniel and his friends had to do was "eat the kings food" in Daniel 1 and they would have been "safe captives" instead of "at risk" -- they chose God's food -- and God blessed them.

And in the illustration given - arguing that an atheist health care professional is ok to obey -- just as long as you are not obeying because God's Word said to do it - is an odd path for Christians to take - no matter how opposed to the Word of God they would normally be on that point. I think we both agree on that one.

BTW - I think we all agree - I am not the one that brought up the clean unclean animal discussion and eating food in this thread...
May 11, 2017 #764

1stcenturylady · Jun 7, 2017

BobRyan said:
In James 2 - we are given two examples of Commandments and sin - but neither James nor Paul argue for this being "the exhaustive list" as we all know by now. Hence the "existence" of Leviticus 11 - "Scripture" that both Paul and James knew about.

What is your text for that?

All Daniel's three friends had to do "to stay alive" was tie their shoes when the music sounded. They chose obedience to God "instead".

All Daniel and his friends had to do was "eat the kings food" in Daniel 1 and they would have been "safe captives" instead of "at risk" -- they chose God's food -- and God blessed them.

And in the illustration given - arguing that an atheist health care professional is ok to obey -- just as long as you are not obeying because God's Word said to do it - is a odd path for Christians to take. I think we both agree on that one.

Let me ask you something. Even though God declared some meats "clean" why do you advocate being vegetarian. Some Adventists believe eating any meat, clean or not, is a sin.

Acts 10:15
1 Timothy 4:4

BobRyan · Jun 7, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Let me ask you something. Even though God declared some meats "clean" why do you advocate being vegetarian. Some Adventists believe eating any meat, clean or not, is a sin.

Acts 10:15
1 Timothy 4:4

1 cor 6 and 1 Cor 3 talks about not sinning against the body - as more and more animal products become diseased (even clean animals these days) it puts us at more and more risk - and is less honoring of God to ignore the damage we subject our bodies to -- so He tells us to avoid it at the end of time because of the deteriorating conditions in nature.

Bob S · Jun 7, 2017

Hint, Ellen White

Jesus' commandments - opposed to His Fathers Commandments? - Really?

Are Jesus' Commandments opposed to God's Ten Commandments?

No Jesus taught in perfect harmony with the Father and the Ten Commandments

Jesus came to delete/oppose God's Ten Commandments

Jesus taught us to edit the Ten Commandments replacing some but not others

Jesus' commandments are based on Love - God's Commandments are not and are ended

I don't know - I have not given this much thought so far.

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