If you discovered God didn't exist, would you still want to be moral?

2PhiloVoid · Jun 7, 2017

RDKirk said:
Ah. But even with God and a single document to work from, men appear to still be just as "all over the board" with morality even in the name of God...and western slavery is an example. Christian states going to war against Christian states is another example.

So, there's 'nothing' in the Bible of a moral nature by which ALL Christians should be able to agree? It's just ALL up for grabs?

While even I tend to acknowledge the relevancy of a bit of post-modern complexity in human perception and conception, I don't think the moral nature of the Bible is COMPLETELY up for grabs. There should be at least some things we all perceive to be 'in' or 'not in' the will of God.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 7, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I'm curious, because I remember seeing some say that if they found out there was no God, then they'd have no reason to have morals and they'd just go around destroying things and killing people because morals would no longer matter.

So I wanted to see what people's own views were on that. Personally I think such a view is horrible and really paints religion in a bad light.

...so one of my underlying points is that for any of us to say "morals matter" isn't an act where we are NOT really saying very much on a practical moral level. It's ambiguous. To be moral, we need to be able to explain why and how we REALLY ARE moral in our thoughts and actions. So, if an atheist says, "You Christians stink because you all think your the only one's who are 'moral,'....well, I'm moral, too!"--then that atheist isn't saying much if their actions are of a qualifiably different kind. If they don't 'hurt' anybody, but they still think it's morally groovy to sleep around and disdain marriage, then..........they aren't approaching and defining being moral in the same way that Christians would define 'being' moral. Which tells us that something is amiss.

We can't all be moral and do different things and say we are all still moral as long as "we don't hurt anybody." Simply not hurting anybody isn't enough.......................................................................... But without a God to encourage us to see this, we could be like Nietzsche and determine our own 'right and wrong.'

Keath · Jun 7, 2017

Hank77 said:
If all the people in the world who do not believe in God acted with no morals our world would be a whole lot worse than it is.
All I can say about the people that you describe is that they, in their hearts, are not Godly people to begin with.

Just because someone doesn't believe in God, doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is not influencing and constraining them. I don't think there would be any moral people in the world without the Spirit's influence. With believer vs unbeliever, we are more talking specific (Bible) based morality vs general morality. I think Bible would argue that general morality still has its roots in God.

RDKirk · Jun 7, 2017

2PhiloVoid said:
So, there's 'nothing' in the Bible of a moral nature by which ALL Christians should be able to agree? It's just ALL up for grabs?

While even I tend to acknowledge the relevancy of a bit of post-modern complexity in human perception and conception, I don't think the moral nature of the Bible is COMPLETELY up for grabs. There should be at least some things we all perceive to be 'in' or 'not in' the will of God.

Even without God, human morality has never been "COMPLETELY up for grabs" anywhere that any group larger than a single family has ever existed.

Some Christians argue that everywhere men have gotten anything right (such as prohibitions against murder and adultery, which are pretty much universal although definitions may be fuzzy around the edges), it's because of God making that somehow apparent to them, even if they have no formal knowledge of God. Well, okay.

But if you're arguing that the term "moral" can only apply to Christian moral tenets, you have to face the fact that detailed, hardcore moral systems did exist predating Abraham. Ever read the Law of Hammurabi? That was the law of the land that Abraham lived by, and it includes some tenets of the Mosaic Law, such as "eye for an eye" and the tithe.

If Christian moral practices can encompass slavery of Christians (which it has) and war between Christians (which it still does), then so much has already been "up for grabs" that we really need to spend a lot of time in optical log removal efforts before feeling competent to remove anyone else's motes. People who called themselves Christians used scripture to justify rape, homosexual rape, and physical abuse of all imaginable kinds against other human beings.

And that is probably the greatest doubt-generator with regard to God's existence. Everything else can be dismissed, but "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you" still remains.

Keath · Jun 7, 2017

RDKirk said:
The ancient Greeks who invented philosophies such as Stoicism and Epicureanism did not believe in the gods as moral authorities, but developed moral philosophies based on human concepts of an "end good."

Without reference to God or a god as a moral authority, they still figured out that amorality was problematical for a stable society.

This is a good example, but it is impossible to say how much this still came from the influence of God's Spirit. It may not have been rooted in Biblical understanding of God, but there is also a natural revelation and understanding of God. I would argue that without God's passive presence and influence on the world, human wickedness would quickly prevail in all hearts.

RDKirk · Jun 7, 2017

Keath said:
This is a good example, but it is impossible to say how much this still came from the influence of God's Spirit. It may not have been rooted in Biblical understanding of God, but there is also a natural revelation and understanding of God. I would argue that without God's passive presence and influence on the world, human wickedness would quickly prevail in all hearts.

And that's still an argument that if people believed the God of Abraham didn't exist, it would still not result in total amorality...because God does exist despite what a person thinks he "knows."

"Otherwise chaos would erupt" is not an effective argument a Christian can use without actually contending that God is just a figment of our own imaginations.

LovebirdsFlying · Jun 7, 2017

I think this is an excellent question. It's really something to think about. I do hear people all the time in church, making reference to "God's woodshed," and how we'd all better watch our step to avoid being taken to it. Or, in a discussion for why it's best to do this or that, their automatic and only answer is, "God says in His word that we're supposed to do it." Personally, I think that's a pretty immature way to view things. The only reason for doing the right thing is so you don't get a spanking? That mentality exists in secular life too. Drivers watch their speed only because there are cops around, and they don't want to get a ticket. Somebody gets angry and refrains from punching the other person right in the face, only because they don't want to go to jail on assault charges.

So it isn't only God as He relates to Christians.

God isn't a tyrant. He doesn't make rules just to make rules. Whatever He tells us to do really is what's best. When we're children, the reason we obey our parents is because our parents know better. We might not be able to understand the reason the rule exists, so sometimes parents (sparingly, I hope, not habitually) must fall back on saying "Do it because I said so." As we grow, we understand more.

Now... if there were no God, would I still want to be moral? I think so. I remember as a kid, getting bullied a lot by other kids, and I was thinking how much worse it would be if there were no rules. And I'd hear other kids talking about games like "killer soccer." As they described it, "The only rule is, there ain't no rules!" And I was thinking, how can you play a game without rules? How would you know where the boundaries are, and which goal to shoot for, and when a point is scored, and which side wins? So yeah... we have to have rules.

Colter · Jun 7, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I'm curious, because I remember seeing some say that if they found out there was no God, then they'd have no reason to have morals and they'd just go around destroying things and killing people because morals would no longer matter.

So I wanted to see what people's own views were on that. Personally I think such a view is horrible and really paints religion in a bad light.

Morality is innate to personality because personality comes from moral God.

CrystalDragon · Jun 7, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
short of mental illness, people don't become psychopaths just for being irreligious.

If that's the case, then some I've seen here then might have some mental illness—it seems like some people's religious faith is the only thing that stops them from becoming psychopaths.

disciple1 · Jun 7, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I'm curious, because I remember seeing some say that if they found out there was no God, then they'd have no reason to have morals and they'd just go around destroying things and killing people because morals would no longer matter.

So I wanted to see what people's own views were on that. Personally I think such a view is horrible and really paints religion in a bad light.

I know God lives, I've seen miracles.

CrystalDragon · Jun 7, 2017

Colter said:
Morality is innate to personality because personality comes from moral God.

disciple1 said:
I know God lives, I've seen miracles.

That's dodging the hypothetical. (Which unfortunately I've seen several times on here)

2PhiloVoid · Jun 7, 2017

RDKirk said:
Even without God, human morality has never been "COMPLETELY up for grabs" anywhere that any group larger than a single family has ever existed.

Some Christians argue that everywhere men have gotten anything right (such as prohibitions against murder and adultery, which are pretty much universal although definitions may be fuzzy around the edges), it's because of God making that somehow apparent to them, even if they have no formal knowledge of God. Well, okay.

But if you're arguing that the term "moral" can only apply to Christian moral tenets, you have to face the fact that detailed, hardcore moral systems did exist predating Abraham. Ever read the Law of Hammurabi? That was the law of the land that Abraham lived by, and it includes some tenets of the Mosaic Law, such as "eye for an eye" and the tithe.

If Christian moral practices can encompass slavery of Christians (which it has) and war between Christians (which it still does), then so much has already been "up for grabs" that we really need to spend a lot of time in optical log removal efforts before feeling competent to remove anyone else's motes. People who called themselves Christians used scripture to justify rape, homosexual rape, and physical abuse of all imaginable kinds against other human beings.

And that is probably the greatest doubt-generator with regard to God's existence. Everything else can be dismissed, but "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you" still remains.

And how does this answer the OP, RD? Because according to the OP, the issue is whether or not we can be moral without a God (or if no God exists). The issue isn't whether the Bible gives us superior ethics or not.

Sure, if the Bible is true, then we can still posit (as I do) that even pagans and non-believers have it in their ability to do what would be considered 'moral acts,' just as Christians can still be capable of 'immoral' acts (to some extent).

But, if there IS NO GOD, then there is no Image of God by which anyone can claim common moral characteristics or conceptual equipment. And if there is no God, there isn't really all that much preventing any Nietzsche or Macchiavelli from "using" and "abusing" our so-called evolutionary moral characteristics embedded in our DNA and upending actual morality--we fake it all day and get away with what we want ...as long as our neighbor doesn't find out and thinks we're generally of good character.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 7, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
If that's the case, then some I've seen here then might have some mental illness—it seems like some people's religious faith is the only thing that stops them from becoming psychopaths.

From my experience, some are already psychopaths and just happen to 'add' religion (or Christianity) to their social mix.

CrystalDragon · Jun 7, 2017

Keath said:
This is a good example, but it is impossible to say how much this still came from the influence of God's Spirit. It may not have been rooted in Biblical understanding of God, but there is also a natural revelation and understanding of God. I would argue that without God's passive presence and influence on the world, human wickedness would quickly prevail in all hearts.

I've heard it said that countries that are more atheistic are more peaceful.

Colter · Jun 7, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
That's dodging the hypothetical. (Which unfortunately I've seen several times on here)

Your hypothetical is impossible.

Hank77 · Jun 7, 2017

Keath said:
Just because someone doesn't believe in God, doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is not influencing and constraining them. I don't think there would be any moral people in the world without the Spirit's influence. With believer vs unbeliever, we are more talking specific (Bible) based morality vs general morality. I think Bible would argue that general morality still has its roots in God.

Man was not created like any other animal. God created him with a conscious, rational intelligence, and will to choose. Because of this most people know that to have a society with laws rather than chaos is to their benefit and the benefit of those they love.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 7, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I've heard it said that countries that are more atheistic are more peaceful.

Yep, China and North Korea are really peaceful places.

Mr H A Bull · Jun 7, 2017

There is an inbuilt morality in all humans otherwise the species would destroy itself. There are plenty of atheists and they don't go slaughtering. We all know that the creator has done this purposely to stop this. Such is His cleverness and wisdom.

So, if there was no God....there would be no existence.

PhantomGaze · Jun 7, 2017

For my part, if God didn't exist, I would still live as if he did. Hurling my own might (futilely perhaps) against the universe to create a world of eternal life, justice, peace, and joy. Not because I could win, but because that is the world I choose to champion, and I would hope that others would follow in that regard. It is an existential choice.

disciple1 · Jun 7, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
That's dodging the hypothetical. (Which unfortunately I've seen several times on here)

I answered it the only way I can, God lives, what's the point of answering, if he didn't exist we couldn't answer because nothing would.

If you discovered God didn't exist, would you still want to be moral?

If you discovered God didn't exist, would you still want to be a good person?

Yes, "Do unto others" applies whether God exists or not

No. God's existence is the only reason I don't hurt people

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