50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

Quasar92 · Jun 6, 2017

66/40 said:
If I read your statement correctly, you're claiming that the "Holy Spirit" didn't occur until after Jesus' ascension??? If that's what you said, that's not entirely accurate. The Holy Spirit is first "documented" in Genesis 1:2, involved with the earth's creation. He's again mentioned in Genesis 6:3, with the involvement of man's lifespan. He's mentioned in my favorite verse in Zechariah 4:6. Then again in Malachi 2:15. The Holy Spirit is clearly mentioned in the OT, long before the birth of Jesus' earthly ministry.

From the beginning, the Holy Spirit has always been.

Again, if I misread your statement, apologies.

FYI, the New Covenant of Grace was not put into existence until Jesus shed His blood and died. See Lk.22:20. Ten days after His resurrection and the 40 days He remained on the earth, the Holy Spirit arrived, that founded the present day Church, together with the New Covenant of Grace. I've posted Jn.7:39 for you now, several times. Try reading it this time.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 6, 2017

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as documented in the four post link below:

Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 6, 2017

BABerean2 said:
No and Yes...

The word "Israel" can mean a nation of people.

The word "Israel" can mean those who are the children of God through the work of His Son at Calvary.

Which one of the above is found in Romans 9, 10, and 11?

Both.

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,　

Paul explains the verse above in the verse below.

Rom 9:8　 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.　

You cannot separate the Church and Israel in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　

Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　(Copied from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　

Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　

Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　

Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　

Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.　

　
Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

Your great error is the failure to understand that Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of the Israel of God.

I am thoroughly convinced, when Jesus returns and informs you the Church is not Israel, and never was or will be, you will argue with Him about it! The "Israel of God," Paul referred to in Gal.6:16, were the Israelites who believed in Jesus during His first adevent. When after Pentecost, they all became members of Jesus One Body, His Church! Not to non-believing Israel! When are you hoing to open your eyes?

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Jun 7, 2017

Quasar92 said:
I am thoroughly convinced, when Jesus returns and informs you the Church is not Israel, and never was or will be, you will argue with Him about it! The "Israel of God," Paul referred to in Gal.6:16, were the Israelites who believed in Jesus during His first adevent. When after Pentecost, they all became members of Jesus One Body, His Church! Not to non-believing Israel! When are you hoing to open your eyes?

Quasar92

Are you going to tell us that the word "Israel" has the exact same meaning both times it is used in Romans 9:6?

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,　

How about explaining the verse for us...

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Acts 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　

While you are at it, please explain why Peter addressed the crowd as "Men of Israel" and "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost...

.

the old scribe · Jun 7, 2017

Quasar92 said:
50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2, many in the early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism.

2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.
Hermeneutics

3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation.

4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.
Nature of the Tribulation

5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel's restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).

9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.

10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.

11. The unity of Daniel's seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel's seventieth week and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.
Nature of the Church

12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.

13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter "the great day of their wrath" (Rev. 6:17).

14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.

15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth" (Rev. 3:10).

17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).

18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father's house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.

19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).

21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.

23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.
Doctrine of Imminency

24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.

25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.

26. The exhortation to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.

27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord's return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.
The Work of the Holy Spirit

29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.

30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before "the lawless one," who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

31. If the expression "except there come a falling away first" (KJV) is translated literally, "except the "departure" come first," it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.
Necessity of an Interval Between the Rapture and the Second Coming

32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).

35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.

36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-

46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.

37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).

38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.
Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming

39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).

41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.

43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.

44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.

45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.

46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

From: 50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture50

Written by: John F. Walvoord
(The Rapture Question, Zondervan)

Quasar92

Reason 51.
If the view does not pan out this time it is bound to happen in the next prediction or eventually.

The best reason is number 52.
Publishing materials in support of this view make a lot of money, and with each failed prediction there is the opportunity to republish with changes for the new prediction and make more money. This is even a better money producer than the prosperity gospel because it can never be disproved!

Reason 53 It is the most popular view in the USA, and the majority is always right in a democracy.

Quasar92 · Jun 7, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Are you going to tell us that the word "Israel" has the exact same meaning both times it is used in Romans 9:6?

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

　How about explaining the verse for us...

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Acts 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　

While you are at it, please explain why Peter addressed the crowd as "Men of Israel" and "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost...

.

New American Standard Bible
Rom.9:13 "Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." If that is not self explanatory,be sure and let me know.

Peter's mission was to preach to the Israelites, even though there were some Gentiles present at the time of his discourse at Pentecost, in Acts 2. While Paul's mission was to the Gentiles, though he also addressed Israelites.

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Jun 7, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Rom.9:13 "Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." If that is not self explanatory,be sure and let me know.

"FYI"

The verse you referenced refers to the descendants of Esau in the passage below.
Did you go over that in Bible College?
It is explained below...

Mal 1:2　 "I have loved you," says the LORD. "Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. "Yet Jacob I have loved;　
Mal 1:3　 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness."　
Mal 1:4　 Even though Edom has said, "We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places," Thus says the LORD of hosts: "They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.　
Mal 1:5　 Your eyes shall see, And you shall say, 'The LORD is magnified beyond the border of Israel.'

I will ask the question again...

Can you explain the difference between the two uses of the word "Israel" in Romans 9:6 ?

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,　

　

.

Quasar92 · Jun 7, 2017

BABerean2 said:
"FYI"

The verse you referenced refers to the descendants of Esau in the passage below.
Did you go over that in Bible College?
It is explained below...

Mal 1:2　 "I have loved you," says the LORD. "Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. "Yet Jacob I have loved;　
Mal 1:3　 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness."　
Mal 1:4　 Even though Edom has said, "We have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places," Thus says the LORD of hosts: "They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.　
Mal 1:5　 Your eyes shall see, And you shall say, 'The LORD is magnified beyond the border of Israel.'

I will ask the question again...

Can you explain the difference between the two uses of the word "Israel" in Romans 9:6 ?

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,　

　

.

You have had the explanation between yjose whoare of Israel and those who are not, that Paul was talking about. In spite of your determination to interpret it your way. Review the following:

According to the Hebrew Bible, Esau is the progenitor of the Edomites and the elder twin brother of Jacob, the patriarch of the Israelites.[8] Esau and Jacob were the sons of Isaac and Rebekah, and the grandsons of Abraham and Sarah. Of the twins, Esau was the first to be born with Jacob following, holding his heel (the Hebrew name Yaacov meaning "Heel-holder"). Isaac was sixty years old and Rebekah is believed to have been younger when the boys were born. Esau's grandfather Abraham was still alive, being 160 years old at that time.

Don't you get tired of shooting yourself in the foot?

Quasar92

Yahchristian · Jun 7, 2017

Quasar92 said:
The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as documented in the four post link below:

Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

Quasar, I have a question for you below.

I have studied all the various views on Eschatology a great deal and I have found that...

In order for Historicism to be correct, Jesus had to die in AD 30 or AD 31.

In order for Futurism (including Pretribulationism) to be correct, Jesus had to die in AD 32 or AD 33.

You prove the point with your post titled Mathematics of the first 69 weeks of Dan.9 where you give the standard Pretribulationsim calculation that "476 years matches the number of years that elapsed between Artaxerxes' decree in 444BC and Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem in 33AD." (Some Pretribulationists start in 445 BC and end in AD 32.)

But history says otherwise, as you prove in your post titled Talmudic Evidence for the Messiah at 30 A.D. where you give the historical evidence that "places Jesus death at 30 A.D."

I predict that you will eventually decide that Jesus died later, regardless of the historical evidence, so that you can retain your Pretribulation view. That is what has happened every other time I have pointed this out to other Pretribulationists.

So what is your final answer...

In what year did Jesus die?

I say Jesus died in AD 30 or AD 31 based on all the historical evidence like you have on your website.

BABerean2 · Jun 7, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Esau is the progenitor of the Edomites and the elder twin brother of Jacob, the patriarch of the Israelites

Well you got close, but then skipped over the fact that the passage from Malachi is about the Edomites and the passage from Romans 9 is a reference to the passage in Malachi, which would also make it about the Edomites...

.

Quasar92 · Jun 7, 2017

Yahchristian said:
Quasar, I have a question for you below.

I have studied all the various views on Eschatology a great deal and I have found that...

In order for Historicism to be correct, Jesus had to die in AD 30 or AD 31.

In order for Futurism (including Pretribulationism) to be correct, Jesus had to die in AD 32 or AD 33.

You prove the point with your post titled Mathematics of the first 69 weeks of Dan.9 where you give the standard Pretribulationsim calculation that "476 years matches the number of years that elapsed between Artaxerxes' decree in 444BC and Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem in 33AD." (Some Pretribulationists start in 445 BC and end in AD 32.)

But history says otherwise, as you prove in your post titled Talmudic Evidence for the Messiah at 30 A.D. where you give the historical evidence that "places Jesus death at 30 A.D."

I predict that you will eventually decide that Jesus died later, regardless of the historical evidence, so that you can retain your Pretribulation view. That is what has happened every other time I have pointed this out to other Pretribulationists.

So what is your final answer...

In what year did Jesus die?

I say Jesus died in AD 30 or AD 31 based on all the historical evidence like you have on your website.

I believe Jesus died and rose again in 30 A.D. Which has nothing at all to do with the pre-trib rapture of the Church, however.

From Artaxerxes decree to rebuild Jerusalem was in his 20th year of reign, according to Neh.2:1-8, in 445 B.C. From that date until the crucifixion of Jesus, was 69 weeks of years @ 7 years per week. 69 X 7 = 483 years.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 7, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Well you got close, but then skipped over the fact that the passage from Malachi is about the Edomites and the passage from Romans 9 is a reference to the passage in Malachi, which would also make it about the Edomites...

.

I gave you my response in post #68. Give it a rest.

Quasar92

Blade · Jun 8, 2017

You know what I cant find in the word of God? Is PRE MID and POST. For me.. Jesus told the 12 He was going back to His (our) Fathers house to make us a home. And would come back and get us/take us/receive us unto Him self so where He is we will be. WHERE He goes we know. How we know. So for me.. Jesus cant lie..yet He told them He was coming back to get them. So for me.. it would seem if Jesus does not know when..then He never lied. If after He rose all He knew was nothing had to happen to keep Him from coming back and taking them..

Then for me.. He is always coming NOW! Well I know as He said.. tomorrow will always take care of its self. So I dont worry about that..nor would I ever believe He is coming tomorrow. This I can not find. So.. I read Pauls 1st letter was to them that thought Jesus came and left them. We find not so... that sound..trump..shout.. dead rise.. we to then meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever.

I know from OT and NT Gods wrath will hit the earth as in all..the whole earth. I read His book and find Lot... that this one righteous man God that His wrath was about to hit these cities.. God for some reason said to Lot "as long as you are here I can do nothing". So Gods wrath could not touch Lot.. nor Noah. Yet what is coming is no flood or a few cities hit. So.. for me.. I live as if JESUS is coming NOW! It will always be NOW when Jesus comes. I found thats how the 12/120/3000 so on all lived.

We know the seasons for things.. we know it now. For me when I can not find PRE MID OR POST.. I live in the now. Today.. this moment is when He will come. .Every moment. So.. for me.. I will never miss Him. I pray and am watching.. I expect Him. Looking for Him. All of which are written.

For me.. to doubt this.. not be watching to believe Christ is only coming once, feet on the ground. So when He does come...to those that do not believe..you think He will force you to go? No..to them.. it will be as it is written.. as a thief in the night. That comes in.. takes something and you never new he come in and left.

Look up a old Jewish wedding.. no really.. awesome.. pays for her.. then goes back to his fathers house to make them a home. She stays behind to get ready yet not knowing when he will come for her. Then about a week later he comes with some friends mostly at night. Makes some loud noise so she knows he is coming.. always has that candle lit. Takes her back to his fathers house for about a week.

Now that is not written..it is what they did.. Just.. wow.. I wonder where these JEWISH people learned all this stuff they did from.. who.. told them. taught them..

I just believe what is written.. He is coming.. He said so.. So I am ready now.. He said it not me

BABerean2 · Jun 8, 2017

Blade said:
No..to them.. it will be as it is written.. as a thief in the night.

When does He come as a thief?

2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.　
2Pe 3:11　 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,　
2Pe 3:12　 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?　
2Pe 3:13　 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.　

Rev 16:15　 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."　
Rev 16:16　 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.　

Based on 2 Peter chapter 3 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.

What is keeping you from finding it?

The place He went to prepare is coming here when He returns, based on 2 Peter chapter 3.

The fire comes when He returns, based on the following text.

2Th 1:7　 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,　

2Th 1:8　 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.　

2Th 1:9　 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,　

2Th 1:10　 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.　

He has built us a New House out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.
He is bringing it here when He returns, based on the text above.

.

Quasar92 · Jun 8, 2017

Blade said:
You know what I cant find in the word of God? Is PRE MID and POST. For me.. Jesus told the 12 He was going back to His (our) Fathers house to make us a home. And would come back and get us/take us/receive us unto Him self so where He is we will be. WHERE He goes we know. How we know. So for me.. Jesus cant lie..yet He told them He was coming back to get them. So for me.. it would seem if Jesus does not know when..then He never lied. If after He rose all He knew was nothing had to happen to keep Him from coming back and taking them..

Then for me.. He is always coming NOW! Well I know as He said.. tomorrow will always take care of its self. So I dont worry about that..nor would I ever believe He is coming tomorrow. This I can not find. So.. I read Pauls 1st letter was to them that thought Jesus came and left them. We find not so... that sound..trump..shout.. dead rise.. we to then meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever.

I know from OT and NT Gods wrath will hit the earth as in all..the whole earth. I read His book and find Lot... that this one righteous man God that His wrath was about to hit these cities.. God for some reason said to Lot "as long as you are here I can do nothing". So Gods wrath could not touch Lot.. nor Noah. Yet what is coming is no flood or a few cities hit. So.. for me.. I live as if JESUS is coming NOW! It will always be NOW when Jesus comes. I found thats how the 12/120/3000 so on all lived.

We know the seasons for things.. we know it now. For me when I can not find PRE MID OR POST.. I live in the now. Today.. this moment is when He will come. .Every moment. So.. for me.. I will never miss Him. I pray and am watching.. I expect Him. Looking for Him. All of which are written.

For me.. to doubt this.. not be watching to believe Christ is only coming once, feet on the ground. So when He does come...to those that do not believe..you think He will force you to go? No..to them.. it will be as it is written.. as a thief in the night. That comes in.. takes something and you never new he come in and left.

Look up a old Jewish wedding.. no really.. awesome.. pays for her.. then goes back to his fathers house to make them a home. She stays behind to get ready yet not knowing when he will come for her. Then about a week later he comes with some friends mostly at night. Makes some loud noise so she knows he is coming.. always has that candle lit. Takes her back to his fathers house for about a week.

Now that is not written..it is what they did.. Just.. wow.. I wonder where these JEWISH people learned all this stuff they did from.. who.. told them. taught them..

I just believe what is written.. He is coming.. He said so.. So I am ready now.. He said it not me

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in versrs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Verse 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Verse 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Verse 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Verse 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of verse 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Verse 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in verse 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Verse 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church:
1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!

The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Jun 8, 2017

Quasar92 said:
The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

The first is based on scripture and the second comes from the minds of men...

.

Yahchristian · Jun 8, 2017

Quasar92 said:
I believe Jesus died and rose again in 30 A.D. Which has nothing at all to do with the pre-trib rapture of the Church, however.

From Artaxerxes decree to rebuild Jerusalem was in his 20th year of reign, according to Neh.2:1-8, in 445 B.C. From that date until the crucifixion of Jesus, was 69 weeks of years @ 7 years per week. 69 X 7 = 483 years.

Quasar92

Quasar,

I have a question for you below.

I agree with you that Jesus died (and rose again) in AD 30 (or 31)! There is just too much historical evidence to believe otherwise. But that means that the Pre-tribulation View cannot be correct. Let me explain...

If you use your calculator (or ask a friend who is good in Math), you will notice that...

From 445 BC (when you think the 69 weeks started) to AD 30 (when you think the 69 weeks ended) is 474 years, not 483 years!

(Note: To calculate the years between a BC year and an AD year, you add the two together and subtract 1. For example, from 1 BC to 1 AD is 1 year.)

Since the only two suggested starting points for the 69 weeks are either 458/457 BC or 445/444 BC, and since 458/457 BC plus 483 years comes to AD 26/27, and since 445/444 BC plus 483 years comes to AD 39/40, and since they want it to end at Jesus' triumphal entry in AD 30-33...

Pretribbers have modified the years to be what they call "lunar years". They say the 69 weeks are "weeks" of 360 days each, not 365 days each. Never mind that an actual lunar year is around 354 days, not 360 days.

But even using their version of a "lunar year", which makes the 69 weeks last 476 solar years, there is no way to make Jesus' death occur in AD 30. Since 458/457 BC plus 476 years comes to AD 19/20, and since 445/444 BC plus 476 years comes to AD 32/33, the Pre-trib view cannot be correct if Jesus died and rose again in AD 30.

You really only have two choices...
1.) Stick with Jesus dying in AD 30 and admit the Pre-tribulation view cannot be correct. (This was my choice.)
2.) Decide that Jesus actually died in AD 32 or 33, despite the historical evidence that says otherwise.

So are you going to stick with your view that the 69 weeks started in 445 BC and ended in AD 30?

Or are you going to decide that Jesus died and rose again in AD 32 or 33 despite all the historical evidence that shows it occurred in AD 30 or 31?

P.S. Every other Pre-tribber I have debated, after using their calculator to prove what I am saying is true, has decided to change the year of Jesus' death and resurrection.

Quasar92 · Jun 8, 2017

BABerean2 said:
The first is based on scripture and the second comes from the minds of men...

.

Your above allegations the rapture of the Church is taught by men, is documented in my post #75 that clearly reveals the teachings all come from Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, whom you repeatedly make liars out of! Your denial of those facts that all members who read this thread can readily see for themselves, the errors you continue to post, in the face of the Scriptural facts that refute you!

Quasar92

jgr · Jun 8, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of verse 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is neither explicit nor implicit.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.

And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale.
Same with Cranmer, who was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and almost certainly of like persuasion.
Beza was almost certainly of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio" is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is completely consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

Yahchristian · Jun 8, 2017

jgr said:
Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.

True.

It amazes me that so many Protestants are not aware that the Protestant confessions of faith identify the Papacy as the Antichrist.

For example, chapter 25 paragraph 6 of the Westminster Confession of Faith says...

"There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God."

Likewise, chapter 26 paragraph 4 of the Baptist Confession of Faith says...

"The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Here is a chart that explains the views of those confessions...

50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

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