50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

BABerean2

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Dwight Pentecost happened to be one of my mentors, beside the two Bible Colleges I earned qualifications to teach the Bible from. He is an avid advocate of the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The OP was provided by the late John Walvoord, former President of the Dallas Theological Seminary.

That explains a great deal...

The following opinions of the Church as a "parenthesis" in God's plan come from those at Dallas.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


Did you get that...

The Church of Jesus Christ revealed by the Messiah Himself in Matthew chapter 16 is only a "parenthesis" in God's Plan for the world, according to Dr. John F. Walvoord.

They claim the "Church Age" or the "Age of Grace" comes to an end 7 years before the Second Coming and then God goes back to the main plan of the nation of Israel, after the "parenthesis" is over.


This relegates the Church to the same position as the half-time show at a football game.

This is why they must ignore the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, the Dispensational "scheme" above from Dallas falls apart, because it is a "scheme" from the minds of men.

The Church is not Plan B.

The New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree, is the Plan conceived by God before the foundation of the world.


Eph_1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

.
 
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Yahchristian

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50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture


1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2...


That is good enough for me.

presentist1.gif



Is this what you are proposing...

futurist1.gif
 
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Quasar92

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That explains a great deal...

The following opinions of the Church as a "parenthesis" in God's plan come from those at Dallas.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


Did you get that...

The Church of Jesus Christ revealed by the Messiah Himself in Matthew chapter 16 is only a "parenthesis" in God's Plan for the world, according to Dr. John F. Walvoord.

They claim the "Church Age" or the "Age of Grace" comes to an end 7 years before the Second Coming and then God goes back to the main plan of the nation of Israel, after the "parenthesis" is over.


This relegates the Church to the same position as the half-time show at a football game.

This is why they must ignore the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, the Dispensational "scheme" above from Dallas falls apart, because it is a "scheme" from the minds of men.

The Church is not Plan B.

The New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree, is the Plan conceived by God before the foundation of the world.


Eph_1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

.


Kudos for a most imaginative contribution of fiction. The reference you make to my remark that Rev.11 is a parenthetic, pertains to the fact that it is not in the chronological order of events Jesus laid out for John, in Revelation. Did you get that?!

No matter how hard and long you argue to the contrary, the Church did not exist during Jesus first advent, because there is NO Church without the Holy Spirit. Who DID NOT arrive until at Pentecost, ten days AFTER Jesus ascended into heaven, as I told you before, as recorded in Jn.7:39; Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

Israel IS NOT the Church, nor is the Church, Israel!


Quasar92
 
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Yahchristian

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No matter how hard and long you argue to the contrary, the Church did not exist during Jesus first advent, because there is NO Church without the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus told his disciples...

Matthew 18:17... And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

What do you think the disciples thought "the church" meant?

Did the disciples think Jesus was talking about "the church in the wilderness"?

Acts 7:38... This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
 
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jgr

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Kudos for a most imaginative contribution of fiction. The reference you make to my remark that Rev.11 is a parenthetic, pertains to the fact that it is not in the chronological order of events Jesus laid out for John, in Revelation. Did you get that?!

No matter how hard and long you argue to the contrary, the Church did not exist during Jesus first advent, because there is NO Church without the Holy Spirit. Who DID NOT arrive until at Pentecost, ten days AFTER Jesus ascended into heaven, as I told you before, as recorded in Jn.7:39; Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

Israel IS NOT the Church, nor is the Church, Israel!


Quasar92


Isaiah 28

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1 Peter 2

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Hebrews 12

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.


God declares through Isaiah, confirmed by Peter and Paul, that He has emplaced His Son as a tried precious corner stone and sure foundation in Sion, the heavenly Jerusalem, His Church.


Ephesians 2

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Peter 2

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


Thus prepared, the foundation is ready to accept the addition of the spiritual stones of the OT prophets to further the construction of the spiritual edifice. Subsequently, as the NT era unfolds, the apostles contribute themselves as spiritual stones to continue the process. Finally, we the NT saints contribute ourselves as spiritual stones to advance the process to its ultimate conclusion, a completed “fitly framed together holy temple in the Lord.”

The Church, built by Christ, the OT prophets, the NT apostles, and ourselves. That's the incomparably greatest construction project of all time!


I'm overwhelmed to be a part of it. Hope you are too.
 
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Quasar92

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Isaiah 28

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1 Peter 2

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Hebrews 12

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.


God declares through Isaiah, confirmed by Peter and Paul, that He has emplaced His Son as a tried precious corner stone and sure foundation in Sion, the heavenly Jerusalem, His Church.


Ephesians 2

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Peter 2

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


Thus prepared, the foundation is ready to accept the addition of the spiritual stones of the OT prophets to further the construction of the spiritual edifice. Subsequently, as the NT era unfolds, the apostles contribute themselves as spiritual stones to continue the process. Finally, we the NT saints contribute ourselves as spiritual stones to advance the process to its ultimate conclusion, a completed “fitly framed together holy temple in the Lord.”

The Church, built by Christ, the OT prophets, the NT apostles, and ourselves. That's the incomparably greatest construction project of all time!


I'm overwhelmed to be a part of it. Hope you are too.


Indeed, the Scriptures clearly reveal, Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone, Founder and Head of His Church consisting of Jews and Gentiles alike, recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13. All of whom are believers baptized by the Holy Spirit, the tree they are, as God's elect, grafted into. Not into Israel, as so many falsely believe. The Church IS NOT Israel.


Quasar82
 
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66/40

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I'm the dodger? You just wrote 6 paragraph avoiding everything I just said. You're pretty entertaining by the way you dance around in your posts. The one thing I've noticed is that you seem to skirt around anything I say with a lot of words but without actually saying anything relevent.

You wouldn't happen to be in politics would you?
Look who's calling the kettle black. I see you've just changed the topic without responding to the facts of the current debate. 'Nuff said.
 
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66/40

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There is little point in interfacing with people who know the Scriptures better than the authors who taught, or wrote them.
Quasar92
Ha! Now this is humor. Your statement above alludes that the biblical authors are the final arbitrators of their authored text in scripture, yet you continue to push a link that allegedly can somehow "better explain" what those passages "really mean."

Fail.
 
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jgr

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Indeed, the Scriptures clearly reveal, Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone, Founder and Head of His Church consisting of Jews and Gentiles alike, recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13. All of whom are believers baptized by the Holy Spirit, the tree they are, as God's elect, grafted into. Not into Israel, as so many falsely believe. The Church IS NOT Israel.


Quasar82
The Church began in the Old Testament.
 
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66/40

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Indeed, the Scriptures clearly reveal, Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone, Founder and Head of His Church consisting of Jews and Gentiles alike, recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13. All of whom are believers baptized by the Holy Spirit, the tree they are, as God's elect, grafted into. Not into Israel, as so many falsely believe. The Church IS NOT Israel.


Quasar82
This has been the debate within christian circles for a long time. Is "Israel" and the "church" the same or separate? It's a secondary issue in which Christians are at liberty to have a difference of opinion on. It really doesn't matter because believing one way or the other on that issue will NOT affect salvation by Jesus Christ, to those who believe in Christ. The argument alone is almost a distraction for the multitudes.
 
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BABerean2

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Israel IS NOT the Church, nor is the Church, Israel!

No and Yes...

The word "Israel" can mean a nation of people.

The word "Israel" can mean those who are the children of God through the work of His Son at Calvary.

Which one of the above is found in Romans 9, 10, and 11?

Both.

Rom 9:6  But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 

Paul explains the verse above in the verse below.

Rom 9:8  That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 


You cannot separate the Church and Israel in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 

Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 

Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Copied from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 


Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 

Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 

Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 

Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 9:15  And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 




 
Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 



Your great error is the failure to understand that Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of the Israel of God.
 
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Bobinator

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50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

My Comments below in red-

1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2, many in the early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism.
This is not a reason to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Yes, we know a rapture of sorts will occur. The only question is “when”, followed by “who”. The Bible is very clear on this, and it does not include the vast majority of Christians, unfortunately.

2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.
Hermeneutics
The history of the rapture doctrine can be traced to John Nelson Darby, who popularize the theory back in 1827, though the idea was starting to develop in 1825 by a guy name Edward Irving.

3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation.
Rather presumptuous, I think. You don’t think scriptures that talk of terrible famine, like in the book of Joel can be taken literally?

4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.
Nature of the Tribulation
I have no idea what this means.

5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.
This is completely false. You don’t use a false doctrine to interpret scripture. Read Matthew 24. Did Jesus talk of two tribulations? Does the Book of Daniel and Revelations talk of two tribulations?

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel's restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.
In Revelations, Jesus counsels the Church of Laodicea to buy of Him gold tried in the fire. What is the fire? Trials and tribulations. You can’t remove impurities in gold without subjecting it to intense heat. What did Paul say about the value of suffering trials and tribulations? In Revelations 12 and 14 talks of the 144,000, who overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and they loved not their lives unto the death. How do you achieve this without suffering and being tried and tested?

7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).
Read Ezekiel 8. Read Daniel 8:12-14 and Daniel 9:27.

8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).

9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.

10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.
You can't make up doctrine to fit your ideology.

11. The unity of Daniel's seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel's seventieth week and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.
Nature of the Church

12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.
Uh… The Last Trump, after the sun and moon are darkened for 3 days just before Jesus comes back??? Again, Read Matthew 24. Did Jesus lie?

13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter "the great day of their wrath" (Rev. 6:17).

This is taken out of context. However, you have a point. The question is, “who is the real church?” In Revelations 12, the Woman in the wilderness and the Manchild are protected of God. The rest are killed. Read Ezekiel 8. God instructs his angels to slaughter the people, beginning at his sanctuary (church).
Revelations 6 says, “… [9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The Barna Research Group claimed 15 years ago that approximately 265,000 Christians are being martyred every year for their faith. Explain to them about not suffering any wrath. You think God loves you more than them?


14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.
2Thes. 2:[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Again, who is God’s true church?


15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.
Jesus said, “Pray that you might be counted worthy to escape”. By what standard do you count yourself and the rest of the church worthy? Is the majority of the church worthy? In Revelations 2 & 3, Jesus addresses his 7 churches. Judge yourself by those standards.

Luke 17:37 speaks of people dying, not being raptured up. Eagles [vultures] don’t eat live people, do they?


16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth" (Rev. 3:10).
Are you qualified to be counted among this church? There are 6 other churches that were not given this promise.

17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).
Of all the people on Earth, only Noah and his family were counted worthy. Only Lot and his 2 daughters were saved from Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot lost 2 other daughters, and eventually his wife. Only Rahab was saved. This is far from being the majority.

18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father's house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.
So, what happens to those who take part in the first resurrection?

19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).
True. But again, who qualifies as God’s true church?

21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.
Romans 2:29 says, “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Are you saying Christians are not spiritual Jews or Israelites for that matter?

23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.
Doctrine of Imminency

24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.
What does this have to do with having a rapture?

25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.

26. The exhortation to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.

27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord's return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.
The Work of the Holy Spirit

29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.
This is your personal belief. It is not supported by scripture.

30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before "the lawless one," who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

31. If the expression "except there come a falling away first" (KJV) is translated literally, "except the "departure" come first," it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.
Necessity of an Interval Between the Rapture and the Second Coming

32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.
I don’t understand your point. The Great Judgement doesn’t occur until after the thousand years of God’s people ruling and reigning on the Earth.

33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.
The Post Tribulation rapture is necessary BECAUSE [Mark 13:20- And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Why would God have to shortened the days of destruction if he’s going to rapture the church before tribulations?

34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).

35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.

36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-

46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.
Read Revelations 20:12-15. Everyone is given back their bodies for the Great Judgement which occurs after the thousand year rest period. It’s not even close to the time period of Jesus’ return.

37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).

38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.
Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming

39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).

41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.

43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.

44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.

45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.

46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

From: 50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture50

Written by: John F. Walvoord
(The Rapture Question, Zondervan)

I close with these two scriptures-

Galatians 1: [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,let him be accursed.[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Revelations 22: [18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.



Quasar92
 
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parousia70

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So...who's going to be first to reply to that...in full? :eek:

No need.
Replying to point #1 is sufficient:

1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2...

Right off We have Walvord's admission from the very start that the apostle Paul’s position was Post-Tribulationism.

End of discussion.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2, many in the early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism.

Since imminency can be believed without belief in the pretribulation rapture (it isn't a support that only leads to pre-tribulationism) then that is not a reason 'for' the pretribulation rapture theory.

Fallacy: Affirming the Consequent

2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.

It isn't just that the pretribulational rapture theory grew more 'detailed' since the 18th century - it had no proponents prior to that at all. Pseudo-Eusebius, often used as the earliest proof, was mid-trib. Its development was not similar to 'other major doctrines' - that is a faulty premise.

Even if true, this would not be a 'reason for' the pretribulational rapture position, it simply would be a refutation of the fallacy of 'appeal to tradition' for rejecting the theory outright.

3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation.

Firstly, this is not true. Pretribulationism does a number of passages figuratively. For example, Lk 17:26-35 literally speaks of people being destroyed and dying (which literally happened when half the Jews were killed in the siege of Jerusalem, many of whom were trying to preserve their lives by appealing to the Romans, wheras the Christians who fled through the mountains to Pella have no recorded casualties in history). Yet, the pre-tribulational rapture position applies these verses figuratively, not literarlly, to people being 'taken' in the rapture.

Second, there is no reason to take 'all passages' literally. Many eschatological references in the New Testament have clear figurative references in the old Testament. Cross reference Rev 9:7-9 with Joel 1:1-7, for example. Scripture is the best interpreter of scripture, not man-made hermeneutics like 'take everything literally.'

Is, “If the scripture makes plain sense, seek no other sense” a good Bible hermeneutic to use in study?

Third, it's a fallacy to set up one's own 'rules' to interpret something through, then declare that the conclusion is true because it is the only one that fits those 'rules.' That is circular reasoning, not a proof.

4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.

That's a description of the theory, not a supporting premise.

5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.

Again, this is a description of part of the theory and not a proof. In this case, it's not actually clear that this is true. Pretribulation rapture theory tends to mix up the wrath of God and the Great Tribulation, and it's treatment of the Great tribulation vs. general tribulations seems fuzzy - not a clear scriptural distinction. One can grant that to the pre-tribulationist, the siege of Jerusalem represents merely one tribulation and has no bearing on the Great Tribulation - but that goes back to being another discriptor of the theory, not a proof.

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel's restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

Fallacy: circular reasoning. The GT is a time of preparation becayse people who believe it is a time of preparation properly interpret it as a time of preparation...

This again is not a proof or even a supporting reason. Plus, the verses do not clearly demand what is being claimed. Deut 4:29-30, in context, is about the dispersion of the Jews (the diaspora) if they stop following God, but how God will not forget His covenant with them in the latter days (time of Christ onward, not necessarily the very last days of Earth, though hints of fulfillment in Rom 11.) Jer 30:4-11 is about the restoration of Israel. It does not describe a time of Tribulation, but a time of peace and security and the destruction of Israel's enemies!

Also, scripture does show that the Great tribulation is indeed about refining believers (Jew and Gentile) for the glory of God: Rev 9:7-19

7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

Firstly, there is not universal agreement that all those passages, and they alone, refer to the Great Tribulation or to a future Great Tribulation. Second, many of those passages were written to Jews, specifically about their covenant with God, so there is no reason to expect that they would mention Gentile believers. Third, Dan 12:1-2 does not exclude the church, as there are many Gentile believers written of 'in the book' (Phil 4:3, Rev 20:12, etc.) and we are God's people as well (Rom 9:6). While the conflict in the two verses seems to revolve around the physical nation of Israel, it seems it is the people of God (which would be both Jew and Gentile) rising as well as 'some to everlasting contempt.'

8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).

I don't think that can be claimed whatsoever if you read the actual verses:

Matt 13:30 is a parable of the weeds and wheat. Few would claim that Gentile Christians are not among the wheat, as the wheat represents the gospel church! Jesus Himself says, "the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom." Matt 13:38

Matt 13:39-32 follows onto this parable, as Jesus explains that in the end of the age "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Are Gentile believers not among the righteous? Of course they are! (Rom 9:30) Are Gentile believers not children of God? Of course they are! It is not all the physical descendents of Israel that are His children, but those of faith! (Rom 9:8)

Matt 13:48-50 again shows the righteous and the wicked being separated at the end of the age. Where do you see in this passage that it really is only speaking of Jewish righteous, and not all of the people of God?

Matt 24:4-31 speaks of a Great Tribulation taking place in Israel, but not just to Jewish believers. Rather, it shows the gospel spreading to the whole world (Rom 10:18, Col 1:6), that many will be deceived and turn from faith (I Tim 4:1), that the days will be cut short for the sake of the elect, and that the angels will gather the elect from the four winds. Is there any reason to restrict these elect people of faith to just the Jews? Do only Jewish believers, and never Gentile believers, live in Israel?

The elect are the people of God joined together under the headship of Christ (1 Peter 2:4-9), so this chapter does reference the church.
Who are the elect of God?

I Thess 1:9-10 is written to the church of the Thesselonians, Thesselonica being the capital of Macedonia - a primarily gentile church group! These Gentiles 'turned from idols' to await Jesus, who would rescue them from the coming wrath (wrath of God which follows the tribulation, not rescue from the tribulation). How does a passage which clearly references a specific Gentile church group somehow 'not mention the church?'
Why is it that Isaiah 2:11 says that the Lord alone will be exalted in the Day of the Lord, yet Revelation and Daniel describe a tribulation period when antichrist will be worshipped and served by the unsaved for seven years?

I Thess 5:4-9: This passage is again written to the church at Thesselonica. The whole passage is about the church, and how we should remain alert and sober so we do not suffer the wrath of God (again God's wrath, not the tribulation which is the persecution of believers.)

Rev 4-18 references the church a number of times. Recall that the whole book - not just the three chapters, is written directly to Jesus' servants and to the 'seven churches' (Rev 1:1-4).

Rev 7:9-17 shows the saints from 'every tribe and nation' who came out of the Great Tribulation.
Rev 12:10-12 mentions the 'brothers and sisters' who triumphed over the Satan by the blood of the lamb.
Rev 14:12 says, "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus."
Etc.

Those seem like very clear references to the people of God, both Jew and Gentile.

9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11

Rev 6 is about the Great day of the wrath of God (Rev 6:17.) The Tribulation is hinted at with the fifth seal in Rev 6:9-11, but as having begun in the past and being ongoing. I'm unfamiliar with all the teachings of the mid-trib position, but that would seem to support their view rather than the pre-trib view. I've not seen any mid-trib advocates claim that the seventh trumpet, "The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets..." is prior to the tribulation somehow.

Either way, even if they did, refuting one view would not automatically support a different theory. Disproving mid-trib, although those verses do not seem to, would not make it a reason 'for' the pre-trib rapture theory since there are many possibilities and not just two.

10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.

This is a circular proof. My interpretation is X, interpretation X leads to view Z, therefore Z is true, because Z is true the only true interpretation is X....

There actually are a lot of reasons to 'connect' the trumpet call at the return of Christ, as given by the commonality of symbols, context, and events (not just the trumpet) given in scripture:

Matt 24:31-32: angels, loud trumpet call
I Thes 4:16-18: Christ descends to lower atmosphere, cry of command, voice of archangel, sound of trumpet, we meet Christ in lower clouds
Rev 1:7: coming with the clouds, every eye will see
Heb 9:28: Christ will appear a second time to bring salvation
II Tim 4:1 Christ will judge us at His second coming and commencement of His kingdom
Matt 16:27: Son of man shall come in glory, angels, judgement
Rev 11:15: Kingdom of the world becomes the Kingdom of Christ
Acts 1:10-11: Jesus will return from heaven in the same manner he ascended
John 6:39-40: Believers resurrected
Col 3:4: When Christ appears, we will also appear with Him in glory
Acts 17:31: World judged by Christ
Luke 21:27: World sees Christ coming in a cloud with great power and glory
Luke 9:26: comes in glory, glory of Father, glory of the holy angels
John 5:28-29: All those in graves hear voice, judgement, Resurrection
Matt 24:27: Coming visible even to those not directly beneath, like lightning
Matt 25:31-32: glory, angels, sits on throne, all nations, judgement
2 Thes 1:5-10: Christ revealed from Heaven in blazing fire, judgement, glorified in holy people
I Cor 15:23-24: Christ's coming & Resurrection, followed by the 'end'

It is actually much harder to get a reading that these are all 'different' events, given the principle of letting scripture be the primary interpreter of other scripture.

11. The unity of Daniel's seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel's seventieth week and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.

That is merely a description of differences between the interpretations, not a proof. There are also, again, many interpretations beyond pre-trib and post-trib.

12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.

I Cor 15:52-53, I Thess 4:13-17, Matt 24:31, Heb 9:28, II Tim 4:1-8, Jn 6:39-40, Col 3:3-4, Jn 5:28-29, I Cor 15:22-24 aren't passages mentioning how all believers will be Ressurected at the return of Christ or how non-believers will be ressurected to judgement?

Or do you simply mean that your interpretation applies all verses specifically mentioning the church to to a pre-trib rapture, and other verses to the second coming, then uses that interpreted distinction to 'prove' that scripture is silent on the church being Ressurected at Christ's second coming? That is circular.

13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter "the great day of their wrath" (Rev. 6:17).

Since the Great Tribulation - a time of severe persecution of believers - is not the same thing as the Day of God's wrath, how does this 'prove' a pre-trib rapture? God isn't persecuting the believers during the day of His wrath - He is punishing unbelievers. Non-believers aren't cowering under rocks during the Tribulation, they are persecuting believers and believe themselves safe.

14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.

I Thess 5:1-9 does not say the Day of the Lord is 100% identical and concurrent with the Tribulation. The passage only speaks of judgement/the Day of the Lord, and how we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. It never says anything about us escaping human persecution.

15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

The 'escape' isn't due to Jesus translating the believer away, but specifically due to the believer being always on watch and not ignoring the signs (Lk 21:29-36.) This verse actually supports the partial-preterist view far better than the pre-trib, as for pre-trib it wouldn't matter if the believer was on watch or not. (The partial-preterist view points out that the Jews during the siege thought they were safe during a brief lift in the siege, so remained and many even tried appealing to Rome when the siege began again, only to be killed. Half the Jewish population of the time either died or was killed. The Christians, both Jew and Gentile, noted the signs and fled during the brief lift in the siege through the mountains, many taking refuge in Pella, and history doesn't record a single death for a Christian of that time.) Lk 21:26 doesn't hold much in the way of a 'support proof' for the pre-trib view.

16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth" (Rev. 3:10).

The word isn't deliverance, but keep - the Greek téreó means to spiritually guard, to keep intact. It's a poetic blessing for them: because the Philadelphia church (unlike some of the others) guarded the word, God in turn would guard them. This was a promise of safe custody specifically given to that church. Other churches, for example Smyrna, were given no such guarantee of being kept safe during the persecution that was to come.

17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).

Again, God's outpouring of wrath upon the nations is -not- the same thing as the nations persecuting believers in a time of Great Tribulation for believers.

18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father's house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.

Jn 14:3 actually says, "I will come back and receive you to myself that you also may be where I am" - not that Jesus will immediately return to heaven. Think of *where* this place is - it's in the New Jerusalem! The New Jerusalem descends to Earth.

"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." Rev 21:2-3

Note that in I Thess 4:16-18, we meet Jesus "in the air" - greek 'aer' - the lower atmosphere where living things breath [trees, birds, people, etc]. 'Aer' encompasses the space from the surface of the ground to the lower clouds. [In contrast to the greek 'ouranos' (heaven), the first heaven being the upper atmopsphere, the second space, the "third heaven" God's heaven). As we are meeting Christ in the lower aer, then this is in full view of those on the planet.]

The greek word harpazo (to seize/snatch up) also refers to an overt action by force, such as robbery or seizing the spoils of war, vs. a secret action. [Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- to seize, catch up, snatch away]

The 'meet the' Lord phrase (apantēsin) is one used often in Greek literature to describe a delegation leaving their home to meet a delegate or new ruler halfway, then escorting them back.

Taken all together, especially with the many other scriptures already posted above with common symbols and context of the return of Christ, the theory that we meet Jesus then escort Him to Earth as the New Jerusalem descends is far stronger than the theory that we all secretly get raptured into heaven.

19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

I'm not sure how to make sense of this. Salvation by grace leads climatically to the theory of a partial rapture that is in turn based on a false doctrine of works? I think Walvoord needs to clarify this paragraph. Either way, a theory not being 'works-based' doesn't automatically make it correct. There are many theories of eschatology that are not works based. The untruth of one incorrect works based theory would not give support as to the truth of any one of the others.

20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).

Since the main disagreement between the various main theories on eschatology is not on whether the whole church will be ressurected or not, but rather the timing, this point does not support any one of those views over another.

21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

Again, this is a non-proof that appeals to another specific view being wrong as proof that the pre-trib view is the only alternative.

22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.

Those who came out of the Great Tribulation are 'from every trive and nation' - Rv 7:9-17. It is true that Rev 7:1-8 uses distinctly Jewish terms (the 12 tribes, the list of tribes, etc.) It could refer literally to 144,000 from the 12 tribes, but this would be a jarring literal passage in the midst of the figurative languages of the seals and the multitude from all tribes. If it were literal, it would not overturn that the multitude out of the Great Tribulation is from all tribes, and it is more likely given the context and literary style to be a reference to the 'Israel of God.' You can see many various interpreatations of the text here: Revelation 7:4 Commentaries: And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Basically, this is again a fallacy - circular reasoning that there is only one correct interpretation, which leads to only one view, which means only one interpretation is correct.

23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.

This is another fallacy, begging the question. "My view sees these terms as only for this specific age therefore scripture uses these terms as only for this specific age."

24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.

I'm not sure that it actually does. At least, I've encountered many pre-trib proponents who believe the gospel must be preached to every last person on the globe before Christ can return (ignoring the several scriptures showing that prophecy already fulfilled), and many who believer various world events must first take place. Yet they may well be not a good reflection on the theory as a whole.

Yet since pre-tribulationism is not the only theory that teaches an imminent return, and Christ Himself said there would be signs preceding the Great Tribulation, this again is not really a 'support' of pre-trib over any other view.

25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.

Why would the comfort of rising to be with Christ be 'contradicted' by posttribulationalists or those of other views? Whenever the Ressurection comes, it will be a comfort! The suffering we experience on Earth is nothing compared to our future glory with Christ. (I Pet 5:1-10, Phil 3:10-11)

I'll finish these out in another post, but will sum up with this:

Walvoord has a habit in his writings of trying to overwhelm the reader with a list of verses or brief points to try and shore up how 'solid' his views are - yet on actual examination most of his points rest on fallacies, aren't true supports to the exclusion of other theories, generally represent competing views with strawmen arguments and without their actual support, and his support 'verses' generally do not support his view alone. Sometimes the verses he uses are even directly contradictory to his own view.
 
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...the Church did not exist during Jesus first advent, because there is NO Church without the Holy Spirit. Who DID NOT arrive until at Pentecost, ten days AFTER Jesus ascended into heaven, as I told you before, as recorded in Jn.7:39; Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

Quasar92
If I read your statement correctly, you're claiming that the "Holy Spirit" didn't occur until after Jesus' ascension??? If that's what you said, that's not entirely accurate. The Holy Spirit is first "documented" in Genesis 1:2, involved with the earth's creation. He's again mentioned in Genesis 6:3, with the involvement of man's lifespan. He's mentioned in my favorite verse in Zechariah 4:6. Then again in Malachi 2:15. The Holy Spirit is clearly mentioned in the OT, long before the birth of Jesus' earthly ministry.

From the beginning, the Holy Spirit has always been.

Again, if I misread your statement, apologies.
 
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That is good enough for me.

presentist1.gif



Is this what you are proposing...

futurist1.gif
Oh boy. ...Convoluted complex flow charts. How come the early biblical scholars never came up with those colorful charts? I've never seen such a thing in the copies of biblical manuscripts either. Hmmmm???
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

26. The exhortation to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.

[Quasar92

Awaiting the glorious appearing of Christ is not mutually exclusive with watching the world around us. Jesus actually says that being on guard is -part- of being on watch for His coming. Matt 24:4-8, Matt 24:32-24, etc. make that point.Furthermore, if one was experiencing a time of persecution and thought Jesus was to return soon (as Christians during the siege of Jerusalem thought,) how would that mean one wasn't awaiting Christ anymore as if He had already arrived? Jesus does warn against anyone falling for the deception, based on worldly reports, that He has already come. He points out that when He comes there will be a 'sign' the whole world sees, and His return will be immediate (Matt 24:30-31.) Nor does the Tribulation coming before Christ's return mean that His return must happen X amount of time after the Tribulation starts (that assumption takes the conflation of many prophecies, some of which might already be fulfilled, altogether, with the further assumption that one's interpretation of all those prophecies is true and that there will be no gaps).

27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord's return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

Pre-trib is not the only view that believes in the imminent return of Christ, and technically the pre-trib view only holds that the secret rapture (not the return of Christ in glory) is imminent. As such, if belief in the imminent second coming is a requirement, the pre-trib view would fail.

28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.

Believers are told to look for signs triggering the tribulation:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." Matt 24:15-16

And believers, who Jesus implies might possibly experience that future tribulation, are told to look to the coming of the Lord:

"So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns." Matt 24:44-46

There doesn't seem to be a 'distinction' in Matt 24 (or elsewhere) between one group being on guard for the coming of Christ, while others take note of signs in the world around. These are both tasks of all Christians.

29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.

30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before "the lawless one," who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

II Thess 2:7 certainly does not say, "The Holy Spirit" - it simply says, 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way,' or possibly, 'For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds back will continue to do so till he emerges from our midst.'

Many theories, including that this refers to the Holy Spirit, have been advanced. Most early church fathers believed the power of Rome was the restrainer. Others theories are that it is the power of God, Satan, the church, etc. There is even the reading, supportable by the context and Paul's point that 'now you know...', that it the apostasy and revelation of the lawless one which are 'holding back' the return of the Messiah.

It's circular to assume that interpretation A is true, therefore conclusion B is true because it is the only one that fits interpretation A.

Furthermore, even if we assume it is indeed the Holy Spirit who was acting as a restraint on the revelation of the lawless one, that would not mean that the Holy Spirit would have to dissapear, leave the Earth, leave Christians, take all Christians up to heaven, etc. in order to stop restraining. Indeed, it would be impossible for an omnipresent God to leave Earth.

31. If the expression "except there come a falling away first" (KJV) is translated literally, "except the "departure" come first," it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.

The literal definition of apostasia in II Thess 2:3 is "a leaving from a previous standing." That is, desertion from an army, defection from a former cause, rejection of former faith, revolt from a former authority, etc. - not leaving one location for another. Even when we are resurrected some day, we will not be 'departing' from our faith, excepting that it will then be sight!

Look how it is used in other Scripture: Acts 21:21 (you teach apostasy from Moses), Josh 22:22 (rebellion), etc.

There is no support in the Greek, nor in the context of the text, for taking this rebellion to mean a 'departure' of the church. Indeed, it would make no sense! Why would Paul say that the day we are gathered to Christ cannot come until our departure with Christ comes first?

In general, beware any time a commentator appeals to an 'English' translation of a term without diving into the underlying Greek and corroborating usage in scripture or Greek literature.

32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

Matt 25:31-46 is not a detailed passage of the second coming of Christ, with angels and glory, to judge both the righteous and unrighteous? What of Matt 16:27-28? If one deliberately narrows the scripture they accept as counting, then can't find a specific topic in the scriptures they cherry-picked, it's pretty meaningless.

Furthermore, while the judgment follows Christ's second coming, Scripture is somewhat fuzzier as to the exact timing between His coming and the actual judgment. Is it immediate? Is there an interim of the nations being put under His feet? Is there an interim of God's outpouring of wrath? Does the millennial kingdom come first? Is there a judgement of all saints and living unbelievers, then a later judgement of the rest of the dead? Etc.

33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

It does not 'necessitate the rapture,' as not every theory holds that they represent the literal church entire at a specific point in time. Rather, there is the theory that this is a figurative vision of the church's continual praise (not current presence) in heaven; the theory that this is a future vision of the church in heaven; the theory that the 24 elders are the founders of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles (Matthias replacing Judas); the theory that these are the heavenly representatives of the people of God, etc.

It is again circular to conclude that only one interpretation is automatically correct, therefore that one's conclusion is proved by their chosen interpretation which proves their conclusion...

34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).

The coming of Christ for His bride -is- the second coming. The Feast follows. Matt 25:1-13, Rev 19, II Cor 4:14, etc.

35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.

Isaiah 65:17 places the context of Isa 65:20-25 - the new heavens and the New Earth, which come after the second coming! Whether the passage is being somewhat figurative as to the peace and prosperity we will have in the future, or is actually speaking to the conditions of the Millenial Kingdom, is a bit unclear.

36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.

Matt 25:31-46 doesn't show all the saved still in their natural bodies. It actually doesn't describe the state of bodies at all, but rather that Jesus is judging all the nations, righteous and unrighteous. I Thess 4:17 shows that those believers still alive will meet Jesus in the air. And while I Cor 15:29-58 only explicitly describes the dead in Christ as changing at the ressurection, there is the strong implication that living believers will either be changed then or shortly after, perhaps during the judgement, as they must be spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

Many unbelievers will still be alive as well, but many will have already died. Whether the dead unbelievers are judged at this point or later is unclear. (Rev 20:11-15.)

Jesus will judge both the living and the dead: "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom" II Tim 4:1

37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).

Jesus separates the sheep and the goats (Matt 25:22-24)- He doesn't make them sheep and goats or declare them sheep and goats - they already are what they are. He is sorting, like a Shepherd. (We also do not definitively know what happens here to young children, babies, people who never heard of Christ, the infirm, etc.) In Rev 20:14-15, any who are not found in the book of life are tossed into the Lake of Fire. Jesus isn't writing some down in the book of life and not others - they are already present, or not. Jesus does, however, give to each man 'according to as he has done' (Rev 22:12, Matt 16:27, Lk 12:47-48),
, I Cor 3:12-15, etc.) and will reveal and judge the secret thoughts of man (Rom 2:16, etc.)

This separation is not so Jesus can somehow figure out the believers from the unbelievers, but is part of setting up His authoritative rule. That He already knows believers from unbelievers is not an obstacle to His judgment.

38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.

Ezek 20:34-38 doesn't necessarily reference Israel being gathered back to one nation. Rather, they are gathered out of exile into 'the wilderness,' which has happened to the Israelites on a few occasions - and when this is to occur is not specifically laid out. Considering Ezek 37:26 and Heb 13:20, there is also a likely reference here to the new covenant which is for both Jew and Gentile.

Again, the judgment doesn't become 'unnecessary' simply because Christ already knows who are His and who are not.

39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

As mentioned previously, the term used for 'meet' in I Thess 4:17 is frequently used in Greek literature to describe delegations sent to greet an incoming king or dignitary. The people meet the dignitary halfway, then escort him the rest of the way back to their home. As such, the meeting Christ in the air fits in well with Christ then coming to Earth, but provides no extra support to the idea of going up to heaven.

40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).

Zech 14:1-9 actually places the Splitting of the Mount of Olives as taking place on the day of God's wrath, followed by the coming of the Lord and His holy ones, followed by there being one king over all the Earth.

41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

To get this conclusion, one must assume that passages describing the second coming really refer to a secret rapture sometime before, which is again circular.

"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man....But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him...Then the end will come....so will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;"

I Cor 15 is very clear that we are Resurrected 'at His coming' and receive imperishable bodies. I Thess 4:15-17 is also very clear that those "who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep....After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.

I am curious as to which verses concretely back this up.

43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.

Again, what verses support a rapture followed by man continuing in sin, vs. a second coming followed by the judgement of the world? Begging the question isn't a support.

44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.

If we assume that is a proper sequence of events (tribulation followed by rapture/second coming/deliverance of tribulation saints followed by God's wrath & judgment), that could be a mid-trib support but not a pre-trib support.

45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.

You have to assume that certain passages apply not to the second coming, but to the rapture, and that certain signs do not 'count' as signs, to get that interpretation. Also, scripture clearly says that it is time of the Second coming (Mk 13:26-37) of which 'no man knows the hour' - not the tribulation which Jesus does describe as preceded by signs (Mk 13:7-14.)

46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

I'm not sure how this supports a pre-trib rapture vs. any other view.

47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

The Second coming deals with both the saved and unsaved in judgment and revelation, yes, but the Ressurection is only for the saved. That is not proof for a 'pre-trib rapture,' as almost every theory on eschatology acknowledges this.

48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

Verses? I will assume Rev 20:1-9. However, the sequence of events is unclear enough that even that passage doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. It just shows the binding of Satan happens after the tribulation but before some form of special first ressurection that leads martyrs to reign with Christ for 1,000 years (presumably the second coming would be at this point), then a last battle and the final punishment of Satan, then a final judgment of the nations (presumably from that 1,000 year kingdom.) This passage has many theories regarding it, but it doesn't explicitly describe an unbound Satan pre-rapture while Satan is bound at the Second coming.

49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

If Jesus were to return this very instant, there would be no prophecy man could claim as 'unfulfilled.' There are prophecies that are in dispute as to whether they occurred in the past or will in the future or are double prophecies, and they might very well be future - but if Jesus returned the next moment it would show those prophecies to have been fulfilled in the past. As Jesus described in Mk 13, there are many signs preceding the tribulation, but of His coming 'no one knows the hour.'

50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

Again, I Cor 15 and I Thess 4. If you selectively exclude those passages, without scriptural basis, as not applying to the Second coming - then claim that 'no scripture talks about translation in relation to the second coming' - it's circular.
 
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Quasar92

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Awaiting the glorious appearing of Christ is not mutually exclusive with watching the world around us. Jesus actually says that being on guard is -part- of being on watch for His coming. Matt 24:4-8, Matt 24:32-24, etc. make that point.Furthermore, if one was experiencing a time of persecution and thought Jesus was to return soon (as Christians during the siege of Jerusalem thought,) how would that mean one wasn't awaiting Christ anymore as if He had already arrived? Jesus does warn against anyone falling for the deception, based on worldly reports, that He has already come. He points out that when He comes there will be a 'sign' the whole world sees, and His return will be immediate (Matt 24:30-31.) Nor does the Tribulation coming before Christ's return mean that His return must happen X amount of time after the Tribulation starts (that assumption takes the conflation of many prophecies, some of which might already be fulfilled, altogether, with the further assumption that one's interpretation of all those prophecies is true and that there will be no gaps).



Pre-trib is not the only view that believes in the imminent return of Christ, and technically the pre-trib view only holds that the secret rapture (not the return of Christ in glory) is imminent. As such, if belief in the imminent second coming is a requirement, the pre-trib view would fail.



Believers are told to look for signs triggering the tribulation:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." Matt 24:15-16

And believers, who Jesus implies might possibly experience that future tribulation, are told to look to the coming of the Lord:

"So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns." Matt 24:44-46

There doesn't seem to be a 'distinction' in Matt 24 (or elsewhere) between one group being on guard for the coming of Christ, while others take note of signs in the world around. These are both tasks of all Christians.



II Thess 2:7 certainly does not say, "The Holy Spirit" - it simply says, 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way,' or possibly, 'For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds back will continue to do so till he emerges from our midst.'

Many theories, including that this refers to the Holy Spirit, have been advanced. Most early church fathers believed the power of Rome was the restrainer. Others theories are that it is the power of God, Satan, the church, etc. There is even the reading, supportable by the context and Paul's point that 'now you know...', that it the apostasy and revelation of the lawless one which are 'holding back' the return of the Messiah.

It's circular to assume that interpretation A is true, therefore conclusion B is true because it is the only one that fits interpretation A.

Furthermore, even if we assume it is indeed the Holy Spirit who was acting as a restraint on the revelation of the lawless one, that would not mean that the Holy Spirit would have to dissapear, leave the Earth, leave Christians, take all Christians up to heaven, etc. in order to stop restraining. Indeed, it would be impossible for an omnipresent God to leave Earth.



The literal definition of apostasia in II Thess 2:3 is "a leaving from a previous standing." That is, desertion from an army, defection from a former cause, rejection of former faith, revolt from a former authority, etc. - not leaving one location for another. Even when we are resurrected some day, we will not be 'departing' from our faith, excepting that it will then be sight!

Look how it is used in other Scripture: Acts 21:21 (you teach apostasy from Moses), Josh 22:22 (rebellion), etc.

There is no support in the Greek, nor in the context of the text, for taking this rebellion to mean a 'departure' of the church. Indeed, it would make no sense! Why would Paul say that the day we are gathered to Christ cannot come until our departure with Christ comes first?

In general, beware any time a commentator appeals to an 'English' translation of a term without diving into the underlying Greek and corroborating usage in scripture or Greek literature.



Matt 25:31-46 is not a detailed passage of the second coming of Christ, with angels and glory, to judge both the righteous and unrighteous? What of Matt 16:27-28? If one deliberately narrows the scripture they accept as counting, then can't find a specific topic in the scriptures they cherry-picked, it's pretty meaningless.

Furthermore, while the judgment follows Christ's second coming, Scripture is somewhat fuzzier as to the exact timing between His coming and the actual judgment. Is it immediate? Is there an interim of the nations being put under His feet? Is there an interim of God's outpouring of wrath? Does the millennial kingdom come first? Is there a judgement of all saints and living unbelievers, then a later judgement of the rest of the dead? Etc.



It does not 'necessitate the rapture,' as not every theory holds that they represent the literal church entire at a specific point in time. Rather, there is the theory that this is a figurative vision of the church's continual praise (not current presence) in heaven; the theory that this is a future vision of the church in heaven; the theory that the 24 elders are the founders of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles (Matthias replacing Judas); the theory that these are the heavenly representatives of the people of God, etc.

It is again circular to conclude that only one interpretation is automatically correct, therefore that one's conclusion is proved by their chosen interpretation which proves their conclusion...



The coming of Christ for His bride -is- the second coming. The Feast follows. Matt 25:1-13, Rev 19, II Cor 4:14, etc.



Isaiah 65:17 places the context of Isa 65:20-25 - the new heavens and the New Earth, which come after the second coming! Whether the passage is being somewhat figurative as to the peace and prosperity we will have in the future, or is actually speaking to the conditions of the Millenial Kingdom, is a bit unclear.



Matt 25:31-46 doesn't show all the saved still in their natural bodies. It actually doesn't describe the state of bodies at all, but rather that Jesus is judging all the nations, righteous and unrighteous. I Thess 4:17 shows that those believers still alive will meet Jesus in the air. And while I Cor 15:29-58 only explicitly describes the dead in Christ as changing at the ressurection, there is the strong implication that living believers will either be changed then or shortly after, perhaps during the judgement, as they must be spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

Many unbelievers will still be alive as well, but many will have already died. Whether the dead unbelievers are judged at this point or later is unclear. (Rev 20:11-15.)

Jesus will judge both the living and the dead: "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom" II Tim 4:1



Jesus separates the sheep and the goats (Matt 25:22-24)- He doesn't make them sheep and goats or declare them sheep and goats - they already are what they are. He is sorting, like a Shepherd. (We also do not definitively know what happens here to young children, babies, people who never heard of Christ, the infirm, etc.) In Rev 20:14-15, any who are not found in the book of life are tossed into the Lake of Fire. Jesus isn't writing some down in the book of life and not others - they are already present, or not. Jesus does, however, give to each man 'according to as he has done' (Rev 22:12, Matt 16:27, Lk 12:47-48),
, I Cor 3:12-15, etc.) and will reveal and judge the secret thoughts of man (Rom 2:16, etc.)

This separation is not so Jesus can somehow figure out the believers from the unbelievers, but is part of setting up His authoritative rule. That He already knows believers from unbelievers is not an obstacle to His judgment.



Ezek 20:34-38 doesn't necessarily reference Israel being gathered back to one nation. Rather, they are gathered out of exile into 'the wilderness,' which has happened to the Israelites on a few occasions - and when this is to occur is not specifically laid out. Considering Ezek 37:26 and Heb 13:20, there is also a likely reference here to the new covenant which is for both Jew and Gentile.

Again, the judgment doesn't become 'unnecessary' simply because Christ already knows who are His and who are not.



As mentioned previously, the term used for 'meet' in I Thess 4:17 is frequently used in Greek literature to describe delegations sent to greet an incoming king or dignitary. The people meet the dignitary halfway, then escort him the rest of the way back to their home. As such, the meeting Christ in the air fits in well with Christ then coming to Earth, but provides no extra support to the idea of going up to heaven.



Zech 14:1-9 actually places the Splitting of the Mount of Olives as taking place on the day of God's wrath, followed by the coming of the Lord and His holy ones, followed by there being one king over all the Earth.



To get this conclusion, one must assume that passages describing the second coming really refer to a secret rapture sometime before, which is again circular.

"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man....But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him...Then the end will come....so will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;"

I Cor 15 is very clear that we are Resurrected 'at His coming' and receive imperishable bodies. I Thess 4:15-17 is also very clear that those "who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep....After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."



I am curious as to which verses concretely back this up.



Again, what verses support a rapture followed by man continuing in sin, vs. a second coming followed by the judgement of the world? Begging the question isn't a support.



If we assume that is a proper sequence of events (tribulation followed by rapture/second coming/deliverance of tribulation saints followed by God's wrath & judgment), that could be a mid-trib support but not a pre-trib support.



You have to assume that certain passages apply not to the second coming, but to the rapture, and that certain signs do not 'count' as signs, to get that interpretation. Also, scripture clearly says that it is time of the Second coming (Mk 13:26-37) of which 'no man knows the hour' - not the tribulation which Jesus does describe as preceded by signs (Mk 13:7-14.)



I'm not sure how this supports a pre-trib rapture vs. any other view.



The Second coming deals with both the saved and unsaved in judgment and revelation, yes, but the Ressurection is only for the saved. That is not proof for a 'pre-trib rapture,' as almost every theory on eschatology acknowledges this.

48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

Verses? I will assume Rev 20:1-9. However, the sequence of events is unclear enough that even that passage doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. It just shows the binding of Satan happens after the tribulation but before some form of special first ressurection that leads martyrs to reign with Christ for 1,000 years (presumably the second coming would be at this point), then a last battle and the final punishment of Satan, then a final judgment of the nations (presumably from that 1,000 year kingdom.) This passage has many theories regarding it, but it doesn't explicitly describe an unbound Satan pre-rapture while Satan is bound at the Second coming.

49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

If Jesus were to return this very instant, there would be no prophecy man could claim as 'unfulfilled.' There are prophecies that are in dispute as to whether they occurred in the past or will in the future or are double prophecies, and they might very well be future - but if Jesus returned the next moment it would show those prophecies to have been fulfilled in the past. As Jesus described in Mk 13, there are many signs preceding the tribulation, but of His coming 'no one knows the hour.'

50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

Again, I Cor 15 and I Thess 4. If you selectively exclude those passages, without scriptural basis, as not applying to the Second coming - then claim that 'no scripture talks about translation in relation to the second coming' - it's circular.


Please accept my compliments on an extensive piece of study and preparation of your above post.. The following is a four post link on the Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. Fully endorsed by the author of the OP article your work stems from. The late John Walvoord was the President of Dallas Theological Seminary.

Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92
 
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