Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Light of the East

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I can still only conclude it's because if you are utterly convinced that God will torture the unsaved forever — and this is The Only Legitimate Interpretation of the Bible — then if you dare to question (let alone reject) that belief, YOU will be in danger of eternal punishment yourself. So you just can't go there, can you? ;)

You hit the nail on the head, I believe. This is a result of the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages. Salvation has no longer become a matter of God's free grace and eternal life no longer a matter of entering into theosis and becoming like Christ. It is now a matter of

1. Do you belong to the right assembly? I can't tell you how many times I've been in forums like this and seen people condemning each other to hell for belonging to the wrong assembly

2. Do you have exactly the right beliefs. Again, I've watched people condemn each other over the slightest little deviance in theology.

3. Do you love Jesus perfectly, i.e., the way "I" love Him, which is the right way to love Him

When did it stop being about responding to grace, obeying God, and turning from sin to love Him and became replaced with fear that if I do this wrong, or say that wrong, or believe something that is not quite right, God is going to slow-roast me forever???

And as a side, I have begun to wonder if the teaching of eternal conscious torment has been used by those in power to keep the unruly masses in line?? History is rather full of scoundrels who have ascended to places of power and have done wretched deeds to keep what they have -- EVEN IN THE CHURCH!!!!
 
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JacksBratt

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That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that all *do* choose God even if it's after death. God works with believers' souls after death. Why not unbelievers? Scripture does say God wants all people to be saved.
This is not correct. The Bible says that every knee shall bow. It's just that for many, it will be too late.

Of course all souls will be knowledgeable and accepting of God's worthy rule of the universe and unmatched righteousness.

The deal is..........it's by faith. Satan doesn't need faith to believe all the abilities and attributes of God..... but I do.

A person, seconds after death, will know all they need to know to be unable to be saved by faith.

You don't get to choose the lottery ticket numbers after they are drawn.

This life is where you make your choice, so, choose wisely.
 
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The Times

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Given that individual humans have been known to die more than once, I've often wondered if this passage is referring to the collective death of humankind through Adam, which happened once. The judgment that follows, and which also seems to be presented as a singular event (at least the way the KJV words it), would've been dealt with by Jesus at the cross, given that the punishment for sin is said to have been taken on by him.

Just a thought. Carry on!
proxy


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You have made a good point concerning the judgment that follows, and which also seems to be presented as a singular event.

Yes, it is a singular event.....

5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick/alive and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:5-6)

Peter is refering to the departed Jewish fathers of faith, whom Christ preached to.....

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:the 19-20)

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (John 9:28)

It speaks of the event after men physically die.....

they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. (Hebrews 9:15-18)

Physical death is what leads all to that event in the singular.

It is written "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

John wrote this after delivering the Revelation of Jesus Christ to the 7 churches, after the fall of Babylon, that is earthly Jerusalem, the 1st Beast, false prophet (religious system).

Death is what brings the whole world before the judgement seat of Jesus Christ. The Jewish high priest who died before 70AD, would be told by Jesus the following....

You have said it yourself," Jesus answered. "But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64)

Paul would take it one step further by saying....

6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)

The Lord's appearing for all of humanity, for their eyes to see, is the judgement that comes thereafter and thereafter as Jesus would tell the high priest was after he physically dies, for this is the context of all eyes shall see him, even those that were responsible for piercing/condemning him.

As it is well known and said that death brings us before our maker for judgement, hence all men are destined to physically die once, then to be judged before the judgement seat of Jesus Christ.

The cross, brought salvation to a spiritually dead world, the cross did not bring judgement, Jesus said I did not cone to judge the world. Judgement can only be effective after a person physically dies, otherwise the Grace of the cross for those who still are alive in their earthly body would have no power and would either be selectively available or not available at all. After physical death, grace has already been offered and then the judgement event in the singular is effective to all, believers and none believers.

If Justice is not followed after Grace, then grace was never grace, because evil would not be righteously judged by the righteous judge. These is why Paul writes...

8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day

Again that day is the singular event pointing after death and not the cross or whilst we live in our earthly bodies.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

John is alluding to a post resurrection form, after the first earthly tent, that is our body is dissolved, to then take on the glorified form like our Lord and savior.

So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:28)

Notice the first time appearance points to the saving grace that forgives our sins, by his redemptive cross. The second time is not to again deliver saving grace for the redemption of sins, but to salvage those from this temporal life to the eternal life, in his Father's house, on that day in the singular, after we pass from this temporal life to our permanent dwelling with our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. For this is the longing for his appearing the second time, that the righteous judge will award the departed, whom he will salvage and give rest to, where there will be no more death, no more mourning and they will live with Christ forever.

The early church fathers had all longed for that singular event, the resurrection of the dead. As Jesus said, in the last day, I will raise you up. We better believe what our Lord comforted us with and ignore full preterist lies.
 
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Dartman

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There is no date for the writing of the Apocalypse. You assume that it was written after AD 70, but many Preterist theologians have made good case for it being written before.
I don't share your opinion that ANY one has made a good case for it being written before. Revelation itself declares that ANY additions are forbidden;
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Light of the East said:
Oh, and Revelation also goes against your idea. Look at this verse:

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Not 2,000 years away. At hand, meaning very close to happening.
Your assertion is yet another example of the risk of taking verses out of context.

Rev 22:6-8 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.




2 Peter 3:8-13 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 
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Dartman

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I have a question for those who insist upon an eternal burning hell for sinners. You guys get really bent out of shape when someone suggests that God is loving enough to forgive all sinners and restore them to Himself.

Why?

What damage is done by believing this good news? How does it hurt anything to believe that our God is a merciful Father? Tell me what your objections are personally.

I'm not talking about your misunderstanding of the Scripture, as we see being beaten around here. We can argue Scripture until we are blue in the face. I want to know what possible damage to mankind, to my soul, to my neighbor, is done by believing that God is good, loving, and forgiving, even to the point of restoring all mankind.
Are you interested in having an answer from someone who does NOT insist upon, or believe in, "an eternal burning hell for sinners"?
 
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The Times

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Then your love needs to be perfected.

No, I don't believe so. In today's autonomous law society, the creature is being placarded, loved, worshipped and looked up to more so, than the creator. It is the final insult towards God and His Christ.

Universalists believe that their subjective beliefs and experiences in setting moral standards trumps Jesus's authority and what he says. So as far as Unitarian Universalists are concerned, Jesus Christ is not the final authority in all matters.

This explains why Universalists would enlist to their religious ideology Atheists, snake worshippers to down right Satanists, who are being aided and abetted spiritually and at times financially, in flagerant attacks against the Holy and Righteous God Jesus Christ.

Universalists have perfected the art of worldly deception, by conspiring with the world against Jesus Christ, our crowned Monarch.

In this regard the first law to love your God with all your mind, heart, soul and strength is perverted to give the appearance of a religious ideology that is lightly sprayed with Jesus. It is a religious ideology of the 21st century that portrays an outward form of godliness, but denies the power and authority of Jesus Christ altogether.

Universalism is the rehashed grand old serpent lie, that is part and parcel of the strong delusion that is sweeping the world.
 
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Albion

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Then perhaps we can agree that the official view of the church denomination with the most members today is neutral re the doctrine of all men being saved.
I don't think we can do that. As was noted by someone else, it's considered a heresy to assert the idea of Universal Salvation; it's only the hope that God may have something in mind that we don't know about which is permitted. That doesn't add up to a position of neutrality.

As for the 100's or 1000's of other denominations that call themselves Christian or church, i haven't researched their official positions. Have you?
Quite a few of them, yes.

Why bring up the subect in the first place if you didn't think your claim that none of them advocate universalism held weight?....In connection with that why only consider churches today?
We're dealing with a preponderance of evidence. More specifically, what from scripture, theology, Christian history, or etc. sheds any light on the possibilities pro or con. If we do that, there's very little going for Universalism.
 
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The Times

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It's been mentioned a few times that, most likely, what many are interpreting as "the torment of hell" is the destruction of Jerusalem (look back at v. 23):


Matthew 10:23

But when they persecute you in this city

Actually the persecution from city to city happened to apostles in the Acts of the apostles, way before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Here is the evidence and reasoning....

When was the book of Acts written? | carm

Hell is post physical death, that is the body is killed, then the soul is served the judgment of hell in the afterlife.
 
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The Times

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I knew from the get go of this thread, that the cunningness of the original poster was leading everyone to choose.. .

God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

Many didn't catch his ploy and played right into his hands. You see what the original poster has done, is a magicians trick to give an illusion of choice, knowing fully well that choosing other options like God uses favouritism or that God is not all powerful and wise are no choices at all. He provides an exit door for those who want to run from the issue, by being a self testimony exercise of none credibility, meaning to shut up if you don't know.

I chose the option...

God can't do what he wants to do.

I then went at length to confront the original poster on this by giving him a reasoned answer for the hope that is within me. He never addresses any of them. I feel totally ignored, O Well what can I say.
 
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Dartman

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You hit the nail on the head, I believe. This is a result of the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages. Salvation has no longer become a matter of God's free grace and eternal life no longer a matter of entering into theosis and becoming like Christ. It is now a matter of

1. Do you belong to the right assembly? I can't tell you how many times I've been in forums like this and seen people condemning each other to hell for belonging to the wrong assembly

2. Do you have exactly the right beliefs. Again, I've watched people condemn each other over the slightest little deviance in theology.

3. Do you love Jesus perfectly, i.e., the way "I" love Him, which is the right way to love Him

When did it stop being about responding to grace, obeying God, and turning from sin to love Him and became replaced with fear that if I do this wrong, or say that wrong, or believe something that is not quite right, God is going to slow-roast me forever???

And as a side, I have begun to wonder if the teaching of eternal conscious torment has been used by those in power to keep the unruly masses in line?? History is rather full of scoundrels who have ascended to places of power and have done wretched deeds to keep what they have -- EVEN IN THE CHURCH!!!!
Like Israel, your ways are unequal. By contrast, God's ways are equal.
Ezek 18:25-32

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel: Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When the righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth therein; in his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.
 
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ClementofA

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I don't think we can do that. As was noted by someone else, it's considered a heresy to assert the idea of Universal Salvation; it's only the hope that God may have something in mind that we don't know about which is permitted. That doesn't add up to a position of neutrality.

To assert that anyone is in or will go to hell is also considered by the RCC a false teaching. While proclaiming a hope that all will be saved is entirely in agreement with official RCC doctrine.

We're dealing with a preponderance of evidence. More specifically, what from scripture, theology, Christian history, or etc. sheds any light on the possibilities pro or con. If we do that, there's very little going for Universalism.

IMO there's a ton of evidence for UR.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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The deal is..........it's by faith. Satan doesn't need faith to believe all the abilities and attributes of God..... but I do.

A person, seconds after death, will know all they need to know to be unable to be saved by faith.

Doubting Thomas believed because he saw.

Jesus said there are people who would have repented if they saw His miracles.
 
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Rajni

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Questions for you are...
1) Why would God save those who do not love him? If you love the world more than God, you are an enemy of God (James 4:4, 1 John 2: 15-16).
2) Why would God want people who chooses the world over him in his kingdom?
I would consider a lack of love for God one of the symptoms of being lost (or a serious spiritual dry-spell).

Therefore, for God to mark those who don’t love Him back as ‘enemies’ unworthy of salvation would be like a doctor marking those who cough unworthy of being healed of their tuberculosis.

This is not correct. The Bible says that every knee shall bow. It's just that for many, it will be too late.

Of course all souls will be knowledgeable and accepting of God's worthy rule of the universe and unmatched righteousness.

The deal is..........it's by faith. Satan doesn't need faith to believe all the abilities and attributes of God..... but I do.

A person, seconds after death, will know all they need to know to be unable to be saved by faith.

You don't get to choose the lottery ticket numbers after they are drawn.

This life is where you make your choice, so, choose wisely.
I don't see how faith being a requirement before death has to mean it's a requirement after death. That doesn't make much sense, and precisely for the reasons you mentioned above.

I mean, who is really the savior, here, then? My faith, or Jesus? Do I have to take that ego-trip, or can I just be thankful for the Lord? :scratch:
 
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Deadworm

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A blizzard of NT texts can be presented to establish the fact that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death. But this teaching must be called potential universalism because God forces no one to respond to Him, if they remain unwilling to do so. I served as an informal advisor to a PhD dissertation on this subject that has led to a couple of books on universalism.

I don't want to hijack the site. So what, if anything, do you want me to do? I could, for example, start a new thread on the biblical case for universalism, if you wish.
 
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surrender1

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I don't want to hijack the site. So what, if anything, do you want me to do? I could, for example, start a new thread on the biblical case for universalism, if you wish.
A fresh start would probably be a good idea. :) And I'd love to learn more on it.
 
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ClementofA

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A blizzard of NT texts can be presented to establish the fact that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death. But this teaching must be called potential universalism because God forces no one to respond to Him, if they remain unwilling to do so. I served as an informal advisor to a PhD dissertation on this subject that has led to a couple of books on universalism.

I don't want to hijack the site. So what, if anything, do you want me to do? I could, for example, start a new thread on the biblical case for universalism, if you wish.

I'd be interested in seeing NT texts re salvation being possible after death.

What are the books referred to?
 
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JacksBratt

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Doubting Thomas believed because he saw.

Jesus said there are people who would have repented if they saw His miracles.
Exactly, it's easy to believe once you have seen. All will believe, when they have died and all is revealed.
 
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Albion

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To assert that anyone is in or will go to hell is also considered by the RCC a false teaching.
But not that there IS a Hell.

IMO there's a ton of evidence for UR.
Actually, there isn't. Aside from "wishin' and hopin'" and arguing that God must do what we'd do if we were God, there's only a handful of sketchy possible Biblical evidences for universal salvation and some of them are ambiguous. Meanwhile, the Bible is full of verses that speak of damnation and eternal punishment or "lostness" for at least some people.

It's also possible to "prove" reincarnation from the Bible if we seize upon one or two verses, make them mean something we want to find in them, and discard the rest of Scripture.
 
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Dartman

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A blizzard of NT texts can be presented to establish the fact that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.
Please provide a couple of your best. So far not even one has been provided that states this theory.
 
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