THE RAPTURE

Bible2+ · Jun 5, 2017

DeaconDean said in post #18:

To believe as you do, you would have to completely ignore what Luke wrote in Acts 1:9-11.

Note it hasn't been ignored, but explained: the "manner" means physically and visibly. That's all.

DeaconDean said in post #18:

I find it hard to believe that any of the disciples, Peter especially since Luke traveled with him, that when Jesus ascended up into heaven, if He did it in flaming fire taking vengeance, or sitting/riding a white horse, or with one foot on Mt. Zion, that would have escaped Peter's memory.

Note none of those things had to happen in Acts 1:9-11 for Jesus to return only once, and in the manner He left.

DeaconDean said in post #18:

So either these are two events, or, the scriptures are in error.

Or you're reading "manner" in a mistaken manner.

DeaconDean said in post #18:

John Gill comments:

"which is taken up from you into heaven;
who was taken up in a cloud out of their sight, and received into heaven, where he will be till the times of the restitution of all things . . .

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

This means Jesus Christ can't return physically from heaven whenever He wants, because He must remain in heaven physically until the time of the restitution of all things regarding the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6-7). And this time won't come until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

So the question in Acts 1:6 is answered elsewhere in the Bible (Acts 3:20-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

That is, regarding "restoring the kingdom" to Israel (Acts 1:6), it means restoring the kingdom of Israel in a physical way in which it will bear fruit (Matthew 21:43), which won't happen until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Acts 3:20-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Presently the Kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24) and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future the Kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus Christ's Kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at His future, Second Coming, He will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in His humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' Second Coming, He will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And He will bring salvation to all the still-living, non-Christian elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, non-Christian elect Jews) will become Christians when they see Jesus at His Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected Church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Bible2+ · Jun 5, 2017

Kiwi Christian said in post #1:

Aim: To comfort and motivate one another with the truth of Christ’s return to take us to heaven.

Do you mean the rapture will take Christians into the third heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires Christians will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the Church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the Church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the Church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to physically reign on the earth with Him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the Church will live on a New Earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

Kiwi Christian said in post #1:

Jesus Christ’s return will be in two stages. One for His bride . . .

Note that Jesus Christ's coming for His bride and with His bride will occur at the same Second Coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' Second Coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the third heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all Christians who will survive the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before He descends to set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this Second-Coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the Church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the Church will already be with Jesus when He subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Alithis · Jun 5, 2017

Kiwi Christian said:
THE RAPTURE

Jesus Christ’s Second Coming for the Church

Bible Reading: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; John 14:2,3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Titus 2:13; Rev. 4:1,2.

Aim: To comfort and motivate one another with the truth of Christ’s return to take us to heaven.

Introduction: Jesus Christ’s return will be in two stages. One for His bride the Church, known as the “catching away” or “rapture”. (1 Thess. 4:13-18). The rapture will be followed by a seven year period known as the Tribulation. This will begin with the Antichrist from Europe making a treaty with Israel and breaking it after three-and-a-half years. The last three-and-a half years of the Antichrist’s reign will be the Great Tribulation spoken of by Christ in Matthew 24:21. This will be followed by the second stage of Christ returning to earth with believers to rule the world in righteousness. Zech 14:1-5; Jude 14

Definition: The term “rapture” comes from the Latin word for “caught up” in I Thessalonians 4:17. Before the seven year tribulation, Christ will descend from heaven, and catch up the Church to heaven to be with Himself. The Tribulation will then be unleashed on an unbelieving world.

The Scriptures teaching the “catching away” are as follows:

a) “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” I Thessalonians 4:16-18.

b) Jesus said: “I go to prepare a place for you (v.2). And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am, there ye may be also.” John 14: 2,3.
c) “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and…must put on immortality.” I Cor. 15:51-53
d) “Looking for that blessed hope (rapture), and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Titus 2:13.
e) John experienced the rapture: “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me: which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter…And immediately…..in heaven.” Revelation 4:1,2.

We may summarise the main events of the rapture from I Thessalonians 4:6-17, as follows:
i) One day, Jesus Christ will descend from heaven and we will hear a shout, a voice and a trumpet.
ii) All dead believer’s bodies will be resurrected to rejoin their spirits and souls in the air. iii)All living believers will receive resurrection bodies, and be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

iv)We will receive immortal, resurrection bodies, a place Christ has prepared for us in heaven, comfort forever in the presence of Christ, and rewards promised in 2 Corinthians 5:10.

The rapture is called a comfort and a blessed hope. Notice several things about the rapture. 1. Rapidity of the Rapture = Immediately (I Corinthians 15:51,52).

“we shall all be changed in a moment (Greek: atomos 823),in the twinkling (Gk: rhipe 4493) of an eye.”
The speed with which the rapture will occur is described by these two Greek words which mean:
a) “atomos” = without a cut, indivisible. This is the word from which “atom” is derived, meaning “that which cannot be divided.” When referring to time it means “an indivisibly small instant of time; a point of time which cannot be divided.” It means “immediately.” b)“rhipe” = a quick motion, such as a fling or toss. A blink, wink, jerk, or twinkle of an eye. The least duration of time. People will not have time to call on Christ for salvation, or to do what they planned.
Believers must serve Christ now so that we won’t be ashamed at His coming. (I John 2:28).

2. Reason For The Rapture = To keep the Church out of the Tribulation.

The Church will be caught out of the world to be kept from the 7 year Tribulation period. The rapture will be as unexpected as a thief in the night. (I Thess.5:2-4). “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the tribulation wrath) by our Lord Jesus Christ.”I Thessalonians 5:9. Christ said to the faithful, Bible-loving Philadelphian church, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (Greek: ‘ek’ = out of) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them which dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10).

Christ will spare His bride from going through the wars, famines, Antichrist’s persecutions, earthquakes, and other judgments that will come on an unbelieving world.
The purpose of the Tribulation is to bring Israel and unbelieving nations to repentance (Rev. 9:18-21). In Revelation 6:8, 25% of the world’s population are killed.
In Revelation 9:18, 33% of the rest are killed. This leaves only 50% of the world’s population alive.

3. Requirement to be Raptured

Only those who have been saved by calling on Christ to save them from their sins, will be raptured. “The dead in Christ shall rise first.” (I Thessalonians 4:16).
“we (all living believers) which are alive and remain shall be caught up….” (v.17). Q: Are you trusting Jesus Christ to save you, or your good works to gain God’s acceptance?

Some people in this room may be left behind if Jesus Christ returned today.
Q: Would you be taken to be with Christ, or would you be left behind to enter the 7 year Tribulation?

Can you imagine what it would be like to be left behind?

a) You phone your Christian friends, and they are nowhere to be found.
b) The newspapers and television report millions of missing people.
c) Many driverless cars will have crashed on the roadside.
d) People will panic about their missing family and friends. They will demand an explanation. Was it the rapture predicted in the Bible? Antichrist will offer a false yet plausible explanation that many will believe (2 Thess. 2:8-12), maybe that UFOs took Christians who were resisting the new world order.
Q: Will you be saved and taken, or lost and left behind? Receive Jesus Christ as your Saviour today.

4. Rewards after the Rapture.

Following the rapture, all Christians will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10,12; 1 Cor. 3:10-15) to receive rewards according to the quality of our service to Christ after salvation. Some Christians will suffer loss of rewards that they could have earned. (1 Cor. 3:15).
“every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.” (I Corinthians 3:8).

Q: Will you win rewards, or will you lose rewards?

5. Revelation of the Sons of God.

When Christ appears, we shall be just like Him, even though we may now appear unattractive and unimportant. We will have a glorious, immortal body just like Jesus Christ has now.

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” 1 John 3:2.

“For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.” Romans 8:18,19.

God has predestined every believer to be conformed to the image and likeness of Christ. (Romans 8:29)

6. Our Response to the Rapture.

‘And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself (sanctification), even as he is pure.’1 John 3:3

Question: How should we now live? If we knew we’d be “caught up” next year, we should:

a) Live pleasing to God by reading/studying the Bible, and praying daily.
b) Learn How to win people to Christ so they’ll be caught up to heaven and won’t go through the Tribulation. Pastors should conduct a soul-winning training session this week. We want to rejoice with people in heaven who we have led to Christ on earth. We only have a short time to do soul-winning. We are in a war for eternal souls now. Don’t be lazy, but get busy rescuing people from hell. After the rapture you’ll have no chance to pluck people from hell. You’ll never see your unsaved family and friends again. You can rest forever in eternity, but now is the time to win souls to Christ.
a) Confess and Forsake any known sins. 1 John 1:9.
b) Dedicate your life wholeheartedly and completely to winning souls and serving Jesus Christ.

7. “Be ye also Ready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.” (Matthew 24:44).
“Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.” Ephesians 5:16.

Conclusion: Are you ready to face Christ? Are you saved? Are you winning souls daily or weekly?
Is there any known sin in your life that you need to confess and forsake? Do so today.

Nah...

Thessalonians describes the Lord's return.
Not his return then departure .
There is no salvation by faith for any one
After that. Every eye sees his return .
That All now know.it's the end harvest there is not further harvest after it.

You'd got to stop listening to liberal american Christianity ..

Your going to be either dead already
Or in the tribulation .the beast can't take vengance on all those who Call upon the name of Jesus when they are not here to take vengence on .
And how will any one be converted when there are none to preach ..
There are so many holes in this false doctrine that didn't exist untill probably 200 yeArs ago that you wouldn't want to blow your nose on it.

The second coming of Jesus is it. End game. Your right to say if we are not ready your in trouble.not because you miss the rapture but because you'll be cast into everlasting fire with the disobedient.

Yahchristian · Jun 5, 2017

JLB777 said:
The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years, which begins in the "midst" of Daniel's 70th week.

JLB

So according to your view...

Does each "week" of the "seventy weeks" refer to "7 years", or does it refer to "6 years 10 months 25 days"?

P.S. Most every Futurist author I have read says 6 years 10 months 25 days (which is 7 "lunar" years).

Brian Mcnamee · Jun 5, 2017

Uber Genius said:
Every one of these premises would hold true (except avoiding the Tribulation) if there was only one return of Christ.

Given the majority of the church until the last couple hundred years has held to one return not two, help me understand your justification for a pretrib rapture.

The majority of Jews expected the Messiah to come and be king as their understanding of the the scriptures did not take into the concept of two advents of the Christ one to come and be Passover Lamb, bringing in the New Covenant and fulfilling Isaiah 53, psalm 22 and many many others. So the majority tradition was wrong. The opinions formed formed regarding the 2nd coming that you hold and are majority might also be wrong. The coming for the church meeting them in the air very well could be a separate event separate from the coming at ARmegeddon where he comes with his saints and sets up the kingdom.
This is where there is even more division as traditions such as Catholic do not believe in the kingdom being established on earth for 1000 years. It all hinges on replacement theology. Did the church replace Israel in the promises and covenants with God? A literal view of the prophecy would certainly have you believing Satan bound for 1000 years and Jesus coming with His saints. Zechariah 14 shows the LORD coming and state that He becomes king over all the earth and from that point on nations must come to JErusalem to keep the feast of Tabernacles or they will get no rain. This indicates a continuation of events on earth after the 2nd coming before Satan is loosed for 1 last temptation at the end of the 1000 years. Then the new heavens new earth and New Jerusalem. I am cool with those who have trouble with the Rapture issue but those who deny the 1000 years are refusing a much greater body of verses that teach about this epoch as a future real period that is to come. The majority in and of itself is not proof of having the correct view. And history has shown often it is wrong.

JacksBratt · Jun 5, 2017

This controversy, argument, discussion, has been on countless thread.

Let me ask one question....

How many Christians would last 1 year under a government or system of government or global situation that will exist after the anti-christ gains power.

redleghunter · Jun 5, 2017

Uber Genius said:
Every one of these premises would hold true (except avoiding the Tribulation) if there was only one return of Christ.

Given the majority of the church until the last couple hundred years has held to one return not two, help me understand your justification for a pretrib rapture.

I would expand the scope of 'return' in what do we have Biblical evidence for more than one Resurrection? Two is the answer from Revelation 20. Then the question is: Is the first resurrection in Revelation 20 the church 'caught up' or happens after.

Setting aside the pre-trib rapture argued by the OP, I think it important to note many of the early church fathers (post-apostolic era) were literal 'futurists' in their eschatology. Not in the sense of separating Church from Israel, but they did believe in a literal tribulation, a 'caught up' at some point (but not so clear on 'when') and a physical millennium kingdom.

For example Irenaeus who is recognized by both Latin Rite and Eastern Orthodox as a Church Doctor: (links have embedded verses as well)

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29)

1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.29 (St. Irenaeus)

In the next chapter Irenaeus describes the physical millennial kingdom of the righteous.

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 30)

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition, Revelation 17:8 as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Matthew 8:11

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.30 (St. Irenaeus)

This has to be the clearest depiction of Irenaeus' beliefs on a physical millennial kingdom:

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 32)

1. Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God's dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum ); and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behooves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: For the expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. Romans 8:19, etc.

2. Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains steadfast. For thus He said: Lift up your eyes, and look from this place where now you are, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which you see I will give to you and to your seed, even for ever. Genesis 13:13-14 And again He says, Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto you; Genesis 13:17 and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein. Acts 7:5; Hebrews 11:13 And upon the death of Sarah his wife, when the Hittites were willing to bestow upon him a place where he might bury her, he declined it as a gift, but bought the burying-place (giving for it four hundred talents of silver) from Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite. Genesis 23:11 Thus did he await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: I will give this land to your seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates. Genesis 15:13 If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham. Luke 3:8 Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: But you, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise. Galatians 4:28 And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spoke] of many, but as of one, And to your seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16 And again, confirming his former words, he says, Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in you shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham. Galatians 3:6, etc. Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.32 (St. Irenaeus)

More here:

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.33 (St. Irenaeus)

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.34 (St. Irenaeus)

Irenaeus makes it clear he is not allegorizing:

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 35)

1. If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: When the cities of the Gentiles shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate. Isaiah 6:11 For, behold, says Isaiah, the day of the Lord comes past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it. Isaiah 13:9 And again he says, Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God. Isaiah 26:10 And when these things are done, he says, God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth. Isaiah 6:12 And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves. Isaiah 65:21 For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one.

[....]

In the same Book V chapter 35 Irenaeus makes a distinction between the resurrection of the just and the Great White Throne judgment:

For after the times of the kingdom, he says, I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them. Revelation 20:11 And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning the dead, great and small. The sea, he says, gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover, he says, the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death. Revelation 20:12-14 Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. Matthew 25:41 And if any one, it is said, was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 And after this, he says, I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard, it is said, a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away. Revelation 21:1-4

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.35 (St. Irenaeus)

Finally, he makes sure the reader is seeing his view is literal and future:

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 36)

3. John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first resurrection of the just, Luke 14:14 and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. The apostle, too, has confessed that the creation shall be free from the bondage of corruption, [so as to pass] into the liberty of the sons of God. Romans 8:21 And in all these things, and by them all, the same God the Father is manifested, who fashioned man, and gave promise of the inheritance of the earth to the fathers, who brought it (the creature) forth [from bondage] at the resurrection of the just, and fulfils the promises for the kingdom of His Son; subsequently bestowing in a paternal manner those things which neither the eye has seen, nor the ear has heard, nor has [thought concerning them] arisen within the heart of man, 1 Corinthians 2:9; Isaiah 64:4 For there is the one Son, who accomplished His Father's will; and one human race also in which the mysteries of God are wrought, which the angels desire to look into; 1 Peter 1:12 and they are not able to search out the wisdom of God, by means of which His handiwork, confirmed and incorporated with His Son, is brought to perfection; that His offspring, the First-begotten Word, should descend to the creature (facturam), that is, to what had been moulded (plasma), and that it should be contained by Him; and, on the other hand, the creature should contain the Word, and ascend to Him, passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.36 (St. Irenaeus)

I'll also add an early church document often quoted for early Christian doctrines or practices....The Didache. Many love to quote it for communion, perhaps liturgy but never point to the last chapter (16) where the early beliefs on eschatology are made.

Didache:16

16 "Watch" over your life: do not let "your lamps" go out, and do not keep "your loins ungirded"; but "be ready," for "you do not know the hour when our Lord is coming."Matt. 24:42, 44; Luke 12:35. 2Meet together frequently in your search for what is good for your souls, since "a lifetime of faith will be of no advantage"Barn. 4:9. to you unless you prove perfect at the very last. 3For in the final days multitudes of false prophets and seducers will appear. 4Sheep will turn into wolves, and love into hatred. For with the increase of iniquity men will hate, persecute, and betray each other. And then the world deceiver will appear in the guise of God's Son. He will work "signs and wonders"Matt. 24:24. and the earth will fall into his hands and he will commit outrages such as have never occurred before. 5Then mankind will come to the fiery trial "and many will fall away"Matt. 24:10. and perish, "but those who persevere" in their faith "will be saved"Matt. 10:22; 24:13. by the Curse himself {see footnote}. 6Then "there will appear the signs"Matt. 24:30. of the Truth: first the sign of stretched-out [hands] in heaven, then the sign of "a trumpet's blast,"Matt. 24:31. and thirdly the resurrection of the dead, though not of all the dead, 7but as it has been said: "The Lord will come and all his saints with him. Then the world will see the Lord coming on the clouds of the sky."Zech. 14:5; I Thess. 3:13; Matt. 24:30.

redleghunter · Jun 5, 2017

DeaconDean said:
"THE FIRST PREMILLENNIAIJSTS

The first premillennialists were those who received God's revelation and wrote it down in the Bible. Eusebius tells us that one of the earliest church fathers that had heard the Apostle John and others who had known the Lord and His Apostles was Papias (AD 60-130), the bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor. Papias taught "that there will be a millennium after the resurrection of the dead, when the kingdom of Christ will beset up in material form on this earth." (1) Irenaeus (AD 130-202) tells us that Papias "related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times" (the Millennium) in book 4 of Papias' writings, which are no longer extant, except a few fragments. Papias is recorded as saying: "there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth." (2) Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), bishop of Smyrna, is also said to have been a premillennialist. (3) The Epistle of Barnabas (written between AD 120-150) presents the common belief that "in six thousand years, all things will be finished ....then shall He truly rest on the seventh day." The writer speaks of the second coming of Christ with the clear implication that He will setup the thousand year kingdom on earth, followed by the eighth day or the eternal state. (4)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) in his Dialogue With Trypho c. AD 140, a Jewish man, made the following premillennial statement: "But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare." (5)

Justin considered premillennialism an aspect of orthodoxy in his day, "And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place." (6)

1. Papias as quoted in Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, II vol., (Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press, 1926) Vol 1. p.297

2 Papias, Fragments chapter 6.

3 Irenaeus Against Heresies book 5, chapter 22, paragraphs 3-4.

4 The Epistle of Barrettes, chapter 15.

5 Justin Martyr Dialogue With Trypho, chapter 80

6 Justin Martyr, Dialogue, chapter 81."

A BRIEF HISTORY OF EARLY PREMILLENNIALISM, BY DR. THOMAS ICE

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

Well researched.

We can establish the earliest church fathers/theologians adhered to premillennialism, but can't go as far as saying anyone of them believed in a pre-trib rapture. True they were literalists and futurists.

It was not until the 3rd Century such literalists and futurists were replaced with the amillennial view. Such men as Papias and Irenaeus (although a Church doctor) were condemned for their chiliasm.

redleghunter · Jun 5, 2017

Manwë said:
Nope. No rapture.

/thread

It's in your Latin Vulgate:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

redleghunter · Jun 5, 2017

DeaconDean said:
I am going to say one last thing and then I'm going to exit this discussion.

Don't go. Your contribution is most interesting and valuable to the discussion.

redleghunter · Jun 5, 2017

JacksBratt said:
This controversy, argument, discussion, has been on countless thread.

Let me ask one question....

How many Christians would last 1 year under a government or system of government or global situation that will exist after the anti-christ gains power.

Intriguing question. Answer: very few. Only those who could sustain themselves in remote areas. A remnant if you will.

JacksBratt · Jun 5, 2017

redleghunter said:
Intriguing question. Answer: very few. Only those who could sustain themselves in remote areas. A remnant if you will.

That's my point.

Without arguing the theological aspects in depth, if Christ does not remove His church before the wheels come off, there would be less than a handful of Christians remaining, after a very short time.

Hardly a number that would be even noticed by society when the rapture came. Their disappearance would probably be welcomed and as a relief.

There is also the problem of the wedding of Christ with His bride and the wedding feast. Is this going to happen on the "U" turn these few Christians take as they join Christ in the air, get suited up for battle, get married, have the feast, then on full bellies, hustle back down and regain the earth with Christ as we fight at His side?

What, also of the removal of "the one who restrains"? Is this not the Holy Spirit? Was the Holy Spirit not given to Christians, in Christ's absence, as a comforter? Did Christ not say He would "never leave or forsake" us?

How, then, can Christians survive on an earth without the Holy Spirit, with godless and evil governments, for 7 years of hell on earth while God pours out His wrath on mankind? All the while, a great deception is also added to the mix....

I have read a lot of arguments for each theory. Pre trib, mid trib and post trib. All have scripture verses to back them up and much thought has gone into it.

However, if you are trying to convert someone to belief in a loving God, and they are already saying that the God of the OT is evil cruel and mean.... what the heck would you call a God that sends you into this firestorm? Sounds like an invitation I would be thinking twice about......

What about your kids..... Don't worry kiddlies..... we'll be dead before it's over, just trust in God, He'll make sure it's quick.... No thanks dad.

I sure hope that I am not wrong. But I strongly believe that we will be removed, have our judgement and awards ceremony, marriage ceremony, wedding feast and then, at the end of the seven years...mount up and accompany our Lord and Savior as He takes His rightful Kingdom.

I believe that the removal of the church and the "one who restrains" will allow Satan to finally take the reins of the governments of this earth. A great deception will come to avoid people who rejected Christ and did not accept Him through faith, to now, seeing and believing, turning to God...
I do believe that there will be converts and there will be people saved during this time though.

I don't believe that God would put my parents, in the 80's and 90's, my aunts and uncles, my cousins and siblings and my kids and millions of other God fearing Christians to the test, in a position of denying Christ or losing their heads.

Sorry

redleghunter · Jun 5, 2017

JacksBratt said:
That's my point.

Without arguing the theological aspects in depth, if Christ does not remove His church before the wheels come off, there would be less than a handful of Christians remaining, after a very short time.

Hardly a number that would be even noticed by society when the rapture came. Their disappearance would probably be welcomed and as a relief.

There is also the problem of the wedding of Christ with His bride and the wedding feast. Is this going to happen on the "U" turn these few Christians take as they join Christ in the air, get suited up for battle, get married, have the feast, then on full bellies, hustle back down and regain the earth with Christ as we fight at His side?

What, also of the removal of "the one who restrains"? Is this not the Holy Spirit? Was the Holy Spirit not given to Christians, in Christ's absence, as a comforter? Did Christ not say He would "never leave or forsake" us?

How, then, can Christians survive on an earth without the Holy Spirit, with godless and evil governments, for 7 years of hell on earth while God pours out His wrath on mankind? All the while, a great deception is also added to the mix....

I have read a lot of arguments for each theory. Pre trib, mid trib and post trib. All have scripture verses to back them up and much thought has gone into it.

However, if you are trying to convert someone to belief in a loving God, and they are already saying that the God of the OT is evil cruel and mean.... what the heck would you call a God that sends you into this firestorm? Sounds like an invitation I would be thinking twice about......

What about your kids..... Don't worry kiddlies..... we'll be dead before it's over, just trust in God, He'll make sure it's quick.... No thanks dad.

I sure hope that I am not wrong. But I strongly believe that we will be removed, have our judgement and awards ceremony, marriage ceremony, wedding feast and then, at the end of the seven years...mount up and accompany our Lord and Savior as He takes His rightful Kingdom.

I believe that the removal of the church and the "one who restrains" will allow Satan to finally take the reins of the governments of this earth. A great deception will come to avoid people who rejected Christ and did not accept Him through faith, to now, seeing and believing, turning to God...
I do believe that there will be converts and there will be people saved during this time though.

I don't believe that God would put my parents, in the 80's and 90's, my aunts and uncles, my cousins and siblings and my kids and millions of other God fearing Christians to the test, in a position of denying Christ or losing their heads.

Sorry

Awesome thoughts on this matter. I see your point and will note for the pre-trib view there are two verses which lend credence to the argument:

Revelation 3:10 and 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

No matter the premillennial view, there are some difficulties with each. However, the premillennial view in general, the literal futurist view is the most consistent given the others.

JacksBratt said:
I believe that the removal of the church and the "one who restrains" will allow Satan to finally take the reins of the governments of this earth.

Well those in the 'debate non-Christians' News and Current Events would hail the day we all disappear. That pesky Evangelical vote won't hold back their candidate!

ByTheSpirit · Jun 5, 2017

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the only passage in scripture needed to totally invalidate the false pretribulation doctrine.

The day of the Lord and... AND our gathering to him will not occur until the great apostasy happens and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

ByTheSpirit · Jun 5, 2017

The Israelites were in Egypt when the plagues hit, yet read those passages. Each time it says the people of God were spared from the judgements rendered. God will in like manner guard his children during the tribulation judgements. No need to worry

JacksBratt · Jun 5, 2017

redleghunter said:
Well those in the 'debate non-Christians' News and Current Events would hail the day we all disappear. That pesky Evangelical vote won't hold back their candidate!

True enough. However, millions will do a double take and get that sick feeling in their stomach that you get when you just made an irreversible life ending mistake.

JacksBratt · Jun 5, 2017

ByTheSpirit said:
The Israelites were in Egypt when the plagues hit, yet read those passages. Each time it says the people of God were spared from the judgements rendered. God will in like manner guard his children during the tribulation judgements. No need to worry

This should be interesting since the Hebrews lived in a separate area, far from the Egyptian people....

We, the Christians are interwoven throughout society.

Would it not be like trying to gulp down a cup of coffee that is full of coffee grains and not swallow any coffee grains....?

I do agree, though, this would be the only other way that I can think of..

What would that be like though.... You, in your Christian home,with green grass all around, shiny car and perfect windows....

Meanwhile, your neighbor is pummeled with fiery hail and all the other nasty stuff that somehow passes you by?

redleghunter · Jun 5, 2017

ByTheSpirit said:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the only passage in scripture needed to totally invalidate the false pretribulation doctrine.

The day of the Lord and... AND our gathering to him will not occur until the great apostasy happens and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

How does that invalidate pre-trib rapture?

redleghunter · Jun 5, 2017

JacksBratt said:
True enough. However, millions will do a double take and get that sick feeling in their stomach that you get when you just made an irreversible life ending mistake.

Indeed. Wonder what everyone will do without all those Christian bakers and photographers to sue.

ByTheSpirit · Jun 5, 2017

JacksBratt said:
This should be interesting since the Hebrews lived in a separate area, far from the Egyptian people....

We, the Christians are interwoven throughout society.

Would it not be like trying to gulp down a cup of coffee that is full of coffee grains and not swallow any coffee grains....?

I do agree, though, this would be the only other way that I can think of..

What would that be like though.... You, in your Christian home,with green grass all around, shiny car and perfect windows....

Meanwhile, your neighbor is pummeled with fiery hail and all the other nasty stuff that somehow passes you by?

Do you really think God is limited to just a geographical location? The point is his people were kept safe and the Egyptians knew it and God gained glory from it, just as he will in the end times.

THE RAPTURE

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Matthew 4:4

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