Perfection or no?

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I hope you do not think your knowledge base is complete. I would say Jesus is divine; I would say Paul is not divine; but I use the dictionary to determine divinity; I expect you to use special religious Jargon.

The Bible is paper and ink and these could be unclean, not knowing what they are made from; the OT was certified by Jesus, beginning with his showing up at the right time; the NT can only be certified by the OT, that is they have to be in agreement, and they form two witnesses. Paul does not have the two witnesses, he has only his own testimony like Mohammad.

Is Jesus God Almighty (Second person of the Godhead or the Trinity) who is uncreated and eternal?

Yes, or no?

My guess is you do not believe Jesus is God because you would have simply stated already that "Jesus is God" at this point already. But I am going to give you one last chance to answer correctly. If your answer is not admittance that "Jesus is God", I will be forced to conclude you do not believe that Jesus is God and that your belief fits the classic classic Ebionite type belief.


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Your asking me to hours (or more) worth of work, I just don't want to put that much into it, when I know what is true....

For me it is a pleasure to do studies and explain God's Word. We are told in Scripture to:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15).

You said:
Peace,

Don't work yourself to death Jason...

God Bless!

Yet, followers of Christ were persecuted for their faith.
Paul says, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.


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ToBeLoved

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For me it is a pleasure to do studies and explain God's Word. We are told in Scripture to:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15).



Yet, followers of Christ were persecuted for their faith.
Paul says, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.


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You know you believe if you don't keep doing your works and obeying Christ will plop you in hell.

Faith is believing in what Christ did alone. Believing you and Christ is not faith. It's fire insurance
 
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You know you believe if you don't keep doing your works and obeying Christ will plop you in hell.

James 2:17 and Titus 1:16 comes to mind.

You said:
Faith is believing in what Christ did alone.

That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that if you walk in the light as he is int he light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you from all sin (1 John 1:7).

You said:
Believing you and Christ is not faith.

I did not write 1 John 1:7. John did. I did not write Titus 1:16. Paul did.

You said:
It's fire insurance

No. It's not fire insurance. To suggest that it is all Christ alone is to suggest that there should be no works and or no holiness. If that is the case, it would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Jude 1:4 talks about this.


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@Jason0047 What did/does Jesus sacrifice mean to you...?

Jesus's sacrifice shows me and all people the depths of God's love.
By this love, people can repent and learn how to love in return (By allowing God's love to flow through them). But he that is forgiven little, loves little.

Also, Jesus's sacrifice is how we are initially and ultimately saved (Romans 10:13) (1 John 2:1)(1 John 1:9). I do not get clean by doing a good work. I get clean by Christ and His sacrifice.
A person can be saved right here and right now without any kind of work but by accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and believing that He died and that He had risen three days later from the grace on their behalf. This starts a spiritual renewal and a relationship with Jesus Christ (Who is the source of a person's life and salvation). No Jesus and there is no salvation or eternal life (1 John 5:12). If a believer is living and abiding in Christ, then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life because it is Christ who ultimately does the good work within a believer (John 15:5). We can have an assurance in knowing Christ if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). He that says he knows Him (Christ) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). Works are the proof in the pudding that a person is abiding in the One who is immortality alone or eternal life (1 Timothy 6:16).


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Neogaia777

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Jesus's sacrifice shows me and all people the depths of God's love.
By this love, people can repent and learn how to love in return (By allowing God's love to flow through them). But he that is forgiven little, loves little.

Also, Jesus's sacrifice is how we are initially and ultimately saved.
I do not get clean by doing a good work. I get clean by Christ and His sacrifice.
A person can be saved right here and right now without any kind of work but by accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and believing that He died and that He had risen three days later from the grace on their behalf. This starts a relationship with Jesus Christ (Who is the source of a person's life and salvation). No Jesus and there is no salvation or eternal life (1 John 5:12). If a believer is living and abiding in Christ, then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life because it is Christ who ultimately does the good work within a believer (John 15:5). We can have an assurance in knowing Christ if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). He that says he knows Him (Christ) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). Works are the proof in the pudding that a person is abiding in the One who is the source of immortality or eternal life (1 Timothy 6:16).


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Yet no man should judge another in such matters right, cause were not very Good at it, like God... Some like to do their good works without being seen or noticed doing it/them...
 
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Yet no man should judge another in such matters right, cause were not very Good at it, like God... Some like to do their good works without being seen or noticed doing it/them...

Well, I do not set out to attack or judge people individually on a personal level; But I set out to attack false doctrine or wrong beliefs. In fact, Scripture says we can do this by the Word of God.

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
(1 Timothy 3:16-17).


...
 
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Neogaia777

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Trying to be good or good enough, on own, always fails, we have to yield to him, we are not our own God... Yet he is us...

Doing good enough or no amount of good works has anything to do with sin, but the motive, and the more pure the motive comes from Love, then Love, does (cover sin)... And I might add Faith... But don't know if faith covers sin by itself... Faith apart from Love is almost impossible anyhow...

His Grace, his mercy, his long-suffering kindness (cause we sin still) his heart suffers because of it, but he does not let it get in his way...

"It is finished", Jesus said... Some translations say "accomplished"...

If they kill me, in this way, it will all be over in heaven, The enemy will be cast out...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Well, I do not set out to attack or judge people individually on a personal level; But I set out to attack false doctrine or wrong beliefs. In fact, Scripture says we can do this by the Word of God.

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
(1 Timothy 3:16-17).


...
Love covers a multitude of sins...

Does this make us righteous, yet we may see ourselves as still sinning and sinners, yet, perhaps God may have a different take on it, seeing Christ instead of you, or Christ in you... Does this Love, make us holy, righteous, good...? (kind, caring, compassionate, understanding, ect)
 
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Trying to be good or good enough, on own, always fails, we have to yield to him, we are not our own God... Yet he is us...

Doing good enough or no amount of good works has anything to do with sin, but the motive, and the more pure the motive comes from Love, then Love, does (cover sin)... And I might add Faith... But don't know if faith covers sin by itself... Faith apart from Love is almost impossible anyhow...

His Grace, his mercy, his long-suffering kindness (cause we sin still) his heart suffers because of it, but he does not let it get in his way...

"It is finished", Jesus said... Some translations say "accomplished"...

If they kill me, in this way, it will all be over in heaven, The enemy will be cast out...

God Bless!

You have to stop speaking from what you believe and you have start using the Word of God and explaining the Word.

How do you explain the following verses?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).


And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.



Oh, and here are verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


...
 
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Love covers a multitude of sins...

Does this make us righteous, yet we may see ourselves as still sinning and sinners, yet, perhaps God may have a different take on it, seeing Christ instead of you, or Christ in you... Does this Love, make us holy, righteous, good...? (kind, caring, compassionate, understanding, ect)

Actually, I do not see Eternal Security or a belief that says "Believe on Christ alone (Minus Holiness and works)" doing that at all. On the contrary, many have who have come out of such a belief have said that they felt enslaved by their sin because of such a belief.


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Neogaia777

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I responded but didn't feel like putting divider's in everywhere so...

You have to stop speaking from what you believe and you have start using the Word of God and explaining the Word.

How do you explain the following verses?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, (in God's eyes and judgement, from God's perspective) and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).

We should not be the judges of another man, especially by his works, some are gonna flaunt or tout it... (By which they break the law)

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

For a lot of people this true, but this was all written to pull them back from it, out of it...

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Most people this is true, it is all a wake up call...

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

Christ is perfect yes, no one else, except maybe the elect, who are said to be virgins...

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

Agree...

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

Yes...?

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

Of Love primarily, yes...

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

Yes...

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Yes, this is supposed to wake them up and get them out though...


"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

That's the judgment, which is why I'm trying to get more comfortable being seen doing good works, and not be such a recluse...

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

We have to, or should die to sin daily, in the morning, before you start your day to maybe have any hope, in prayer to and with God...

That fleshly will... That carnal will...


"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

Of Love, yes...

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.

Oh, yes, I took the time to reply to these...



Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Working on that...

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

Yes, if you are his, you will produce fruit...

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


...

Like those verses,

Peace,

God Bless!
 
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I responded but didn't feel like putting divider's in everywhere so...



Like those verses,

Peace,

God Bless!

It is one thing to say you like those verses, it is another thing to explain them in light of your belief. For these verses do not agree by what you have so far in regards to Soteriology.

...
 
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Neogaia777

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It is one thing to say you like those verses, it is another thing to explain them in light of your belief. For these verses do not agree by what you have so far in regards to Soteriology.

...
How so...?
 
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Neogaia777

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It is one thing to say you like those verses, it is another thing to explain them in light of your belief. For these verses do not agree by what you have so far in regards to Soteriology.

...
What do you think my belief is anyway...?

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved", Nothing more, nothing less... so, unless you want to add or subtract from scripture...?

We want to put more to it though, even I am guilty of that, like you gotta have or do this or that, when, "how can we know"...?

Your going to judge someone elses personal relationship with God and where you think they should be in the process, whether they have fruit or not right now...

God Bless!
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yet, followers of Christ were persecuted for their faith.
Paul says, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
...
why are you equating faith to works? Works is not faith and faith is not works. You are using them interchangeably when they meant totally different things.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Also, Jesus's sacrifice is how we are initially and ultimately saved (Romans 10:13) (1 John 2:1)(1 John 1:9).
And this is exactly how you work your works into your theology, right there in black and white. "initially" when we are first saved, and "ultimately" when we are in heaven.

Their is not two different salvations.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
...
I'll help you set the correct context for this Chapter.

James 2
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 
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Dan61861

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What makes us Holy? God does say, be holy, like I am Holy. (Rom 3:20) No flesh is justified by the Law. We cannot make ourselves holy, there is no obedience to the Law that will justify us. Not only does the Bible say, be holy, like I am Holy, Jesus himself said we must be perfect, as our heavenly Father is perfect. We are all sinners, for it does say all have sinned. We all fall short of the glory of God. So, the question we should be asking is, how do we become Holy, how do we become perfect.

The Gospel message is simple, it is hard for man to grasp its simplicity. We often look to ourselves, there must be something I can do. Yet, no flesh shall please the Lord. We cannot be like God, as Eve thought. Our perfection, our holiness is going to have to come by God, and him alone. As Christ said, with man it is impossible, with God nothing is impossible.

(1 pet 1:13) tells us God’s grace is the revelation of Christ unto us. (Eph 2:8) By God’s grace, He has given us faith in Christ to be saved. So how does God make us holy, like he is holy? (Is 53:11) says the righteous one (Jesus) makes many to be accounted righteous. It is Christ’s righteousness that makes us holy.

(2 Cor 5:21) We are made holy by Christ. We become the righteousness of God. By Christ alone, through faith in His passion. It is true that the righteous shall live by faith. That faith is in Christ. As we believe the good news, Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, He was buried, and He rose the third day, according to the scriptures. (1 Pet 2:24) Christ bore our sins, we are dead to our sins. We live in Christ’s righteousness. We have been healed by His stripes. We have become white as snow.

As (Jer 51:10) says, the Lord hath brought forth our righteousness (Christ)! We are to go throughout the world and proclaim His Gospel. We will call Him, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS! (Jer 23:6 and Jer 33:6). On my own, I have no righteousness. Without Jesus, I will die in my sins. (Philippians 3:9) Christ, who knew no sin, became sin for us. In Him, we become the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:22). Christ has washed us clean. In Christ, we have become holy, like he is Holy.

God’s righteousness is by faith in Christ unto all that believe (Rom 3:22). Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God. That ye believe on Him that He hath sent (John 6:29). We are Justified without the Law (Rom 3:28). God’s grace justifies us through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Rom 3:24). It is God that justifies us, it is God that makes us Holy.

I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that live, but Christ who lives in me. I have been reborn, in Christ. No longer under the Law, the law has taught me well. I am a wretched man, in need of a Deliverer. Our redeemers passion is sufficient, God’s grace is sufficient!

Notice it is Christ that has become our WISDOM, our RIGHTESOUSNESS, our SANCTIFICATION, and our REDEMTION. 1 Cor 1:30.

In Christ
Daniel

May GOD be Magnified!
 
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