LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

spockrates · Jun 4, 2017

Ironhold said:
Everything that's officially accepted is on the church website: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

You've got the full canon of scriptures, the complete hymnals, the most recent Sunday school manuals, select previous Sunday school manuals, and an archive of official magazines that dates back to the 1970s. All you have to do is figure out the latest site update (seems whoever they have running it favors form over function) and poke about.

So I went to the site and did a search for the Book of Mormon. Found lots of information about it, but no online version of it that I may read or search or both.

Karl.C · Jun 4, 2017

Jane_Doe said:
I've never heard the word "triad" used to describe LDS beliefs before and I don't think it fits....

In Greek, in the days of Athanasius, "TRIAD" was the normative term. Trnitas = "the Trinity" comes from the Latin - Tertullian is held to have been the first Latin pre-Nicean to have used the term. Interestingly even Arius et al, from their writings, believed in the tri-unity of the Godhead.

From LDS missionary sources: they hold that God the Father was once a man like us, living elsewhere in the Cosmos. The Father underwent a progression in character to become a God. The Son is the biological offspring of the Father & Mrs God. Likewise the Spirit & the Devil. The Devil was at odds with the Son in their contest for the salvation of man. The Devil advocated the coercive stick while the Son advocated the inviting carrot. The Fther & Spirit sided with the Son and so we have the LDS' triumvirate (which could fall apart).

From 381CE (1st Council of Constantinople) we have what we now recite as being the Nicene Creed. The 325CE creed (1st Council of Nicea) was edited to remove the stench of Sabellianism (three prosopa=faces=persons, one hypostsis=the one individual reality). Amusingly, anti-trinity types attempt to misrepresent Trinitarianism as Sabelianism not realising the two dogmas are in contradiction and therefore incompatible - mainstream Trnitarians teach there are three hypostases=the three distinct individual realities, one physis in respect of their consubstantiality in theotes (state of being God).

Of interest:

1. The mainstream (majority) Church (RCC,ROC,EOC,OOC etc) while declaring the Son to be "homoousios (consubstantial) with the Father" has never done the same regarding the Spirit who, according to the NT witness, proceeds from the Father alone, and who is sent to aid us by the Father & the Son. To do so would negate the NT witness that the Son is monogenes (only begotten) of the Father.

2. The Nicene Creed as recited since 381CE (in the original Greek) holds that the Son was "born before the ages...God from God". Three points on this score:

a. The Son is thus described as not being an emanation of the Father as Athanasius & Marcellus were accused of advocating
b. The Son had origination within eternity = before time existed & things made were made. Arius et al agreed with the second part, Athanasius demonstrated (3rd discourse) their error in advocating "there was a time when the Son did not exist", and so in denial of the homoousios Arius et al ended up arguing the Son was caused to exist ex nihilo.
c. Calvin in his vain attempt to refute the Papacy & make the Son autotheos (God of himself) had only the support of Arian theosopy. Which is why his cohorts shouted him down and made him repent of his error.

This post is getting too long, so whilst there is much to relate I'll conclude with one final comment...

The Athanasian Creed is a well known forgery. Its authorship is unknown & it is speculated it originated sometime after the 6th Century, possibly in southern France. Because it is iat odds with the teaching of the mainstream (majority) Church it is rejected outright by the Eastern Churches and has only a token recognition in the RCC (the Western Churches). To my knowledge, attachment to it is a protestant thing and such an attachment has fed all the heresies and oppsition to Christianity that have arisen since the age of enlightenment cast its first shadow...

spockrates · Jun 4, 2017

Karl.C said:
In Greek, in the days of Athanasius, "TRIAD" was the normative term. Trnitas = "the Trinity" comes from the Latin - Tertullian is held to have been the first Latin pre-Nicean to have used the term. Interestingly even Arius et al, from their writings, believed in the tri-unity of the Godhead.

From LDS missionary sources: they hold that God the Father was once a man like us, living elsewhere in the Cosmos. The Father underwent a progression in character to become a God. The Son is the biological offspring of the Father & Mrs God. Likewise the Spirit & the Devil. The Devil was at odds with the Son in their contest for the salvation of man. The Devil advocated the coercive stick while the Son advocated the inviting carrot. The Fther & Spirit sided with the Son and so we have the LDS' triumvirate (which could fall apart).

From 381CE (1st Council of Constantinople) we have what we now recite as being the Nicene Creed. The 325CE creed (1st Council of Nicea) was edited to remove the stench of Sabellianism (three prosopa=faces=persons, one hypostsis=the one individual reality). Amusingly, anti-trinity types attempt to misrepresent Trinitarianism as Sabelianism not realising the two dogmas are in contradiction and therefore incompatible - mainstream Trnitarians teach there are three hypostases=the three distinct individual realities, one physis in respect of their consubstantiality in theotes (state of being God).

Of interest:

1. The mainstream (majority) Church (RCC,ROC,EOC,OOC etc) while declaring the Son to be "homoousios (consubstantial) with the Father" has never done the same regarding the Spirit who, according to the NT witness, proceeds from the Father alone, and who is sent to aid us by the Father & the Son. To do so would negate the NT witness that the Son is monogenes (only begotten) of the Father.

2. The Nicene Creed as recited since 381CE (in the original Greek) holds that the Son was "born before the ages...God from God". Three points on this score:

a. The Son is thus described as not being an emanation of the Father as Athanasius & Marcellus were accused of advocating
b. The Son had origination within eternity = before time existed & things made were made. Arius et al agreed with the second part, Athanasius demonstrated (3rd discourse) their error in advocating "there was a time when the Son did not exist", and so in denial of the homoousios Arius et al ended up arguing the Son was caused to exist ex nihilo.
c. Calvin in his vain attempt to refute the Papacy & make the Son autotheos (God of himself) had only the support of Arian theosopy. Which is why his cohorts shouted him down and made him repent of his error.

This post is getting too long, so whilst there is much to relate I'll conclude with one final comment...

The Athanasian Creed is a well known forgery. Its authorship is unknown & it is speculated it originated sometime after the 6th Century, possibly in southern France. Because it is iat odds with the teaching of the mainstream (majority) Church it is rejected outright by the Eastern Churches and has only a token recognition in the RCC (the Western Churches). To my knowledge, attachment to it is a protestant thing and such an attachment has fed all the heresies and oppsition to Christianity that have arisen since the age of enlightenment cast its first shadow...

Hi @Karl.C. You seem knowledge of early church history. Hope you don't mind my asking. For the sake of clarity, I've been describing the Trinity as this:

God is one what in three who's.

As a Catholic, would you agree with this, or is it not quite right?

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2017

spockrates said:
So I went to the site and did a search for the Book of Mormon. Found lots of information about it, but no online version of it that I may read or search or both.

Where is LDS doctrine found: With divine inspiration, the First Presidency(the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.
Approaching Mormon Doctrine

To see all of these, use this link: Scriptures | LDS.org
On the left hand side you can pick which book you'd like to read online.
One of the links if for downloads, or you can just click here: Formats and Downloads | LDS.org
Pick whatever format you'd like (they're all free), including audio and hardcopy.

For searching you can use the "search" option on the right, or here's the link to Bible Dictionary, topical guide, etc: Scripture Study Helps l LDS.org All the scriptures are integrated this way. Like here's one on the Godhead: Godhead

Honestly doing a site-specific Google search isn't a bad option either.

If you specifically want the Articles of Faith (which are included in the Pearl of Great Price): Articles of Faith 1

If you're interested in manuals (which are not scripture and not the source of doctrine, but are still quite useful): Sunday School Lesson Manuals
This one is particularly useful as it's the lesson manual for new/investigating individuals: Gospel Principles

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2017

Karl.C said:
From LDS missionary sources: they hold that God the Father was once a man like us, living elsewhere in the Cosmos. The Father underwent a progression in character to become a God. The Son is the biological offspring of the Father & Mrs God. Likewise the Spirit & the Devil. The Devil was at odds with the Son in their contest for the salvation of man. The Devil advocated the coercive stick while the Son advocated the inviting carrot. The Fther & Spirit sided with the Son and so we have the LDS' triumvirate (which could fall apart).

Hi Karl.C, and welcome to the forum! It appears you're misunderstanding a couple of things about the LDS faith here-- which SO easily happens when you're trying to understand a different faith. Heck, like I did an extremely through of Catholicism for 13 months and attended various services there for a decade and still feel like my understanding of Catholicism is horrible.

Anyway, if you'd like me to help clarify things, just let me know!

Karl.C · Jun 4, 2017

Jane_Doe said:
Hi Karl.C, and welcome to the forum! It appears you're misunderstanding a couple of things about the LDS faith here-- which SO easily happens when you're trying to understand a different faith. Heck, like I did an extremely through of Catholicism for 13 months and attended various services there for a decade and still feel like my understanding of Catholicism is horrible.

Anyway, if you'd like me to help clarify things, just let me know!

For decades I've always been welcoming to the guys when they've knocked on my door, and what I related is the essentials of what I remember those guys told me during our chat sessions in my lounge room...

Feel free to correct anything you might consider to be a misrepresentationor misunderstanding on my part.

spockrates · Jun 4, 2017

....

Jane_Doe said:
Where is LDS doctrine found: With divine inspiration, the First Presidency(the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.
Approaching Mormon Doctrine

To see all of these, use this link: Scriptures | LDS.org
On the left hand side you can pick which book you'd like to read online.
One of the links if for downloads, or you can just click here: Formats and Downloads | LDS.org
Pick whatever format you'd like (they're all free), including audio and hardcopy.

For searching you can use the "search" option on the right, or here's the link to Bible Dictionary, topical guide, etc: Scripture Study Helps l LDS.org All the scriptures are integrated this way. Like here's one on the Godhead: Godhead

Honestly doing a site-specific Google search isn't a bad option either.

If you specifically want the Articles of Faith (which are included in the Pearl of Great Price): Articles of Faith 1

If you're interested in manuals (which are not scripture and not the source of doctrine, but are still quite useful): Sunday School Lesson Manuals
This one is particularly useful as it's the lesson manual for new/investigating individuals: Gospel Principles

Thanks Jane_Doe. What I'm looking for at the moment is not an explanation of doctrine, but simply an online version of the Book of Mormon I may use to read and do a word search. Something like this:

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

But for the Book of Mormon.

Does such a site exist?

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2017

spockrates said:
....

Thanks Jane_Doe. What I'm looking for at the moment is not an explanation of doctrine, but simply an online version of the Book of Mormon I may use to read and do a word search. Something like this:

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

But for the Book of Mormon.

Does such a site exist?

Yes. Here for the click-and-search version: Book of Mormon | LDS.org
Here for the if you just want to download the whole thing: Formats and Downloads | LDS.org
(if you want a language other than English, just say so)

Karl.C · Jun 4, 2017

spockrates said:
Hi @Karl.C. You seem knowledge of early church history. Hope you don't mind my asking. For the sake of clarity, I've been describing the Trinity as this:

God is one what in three who's.

As a Catholic, would you agree with this, or is it not quite right?

I could go along with that, but with a little caution. In mainstream teaching the emphasis is on the filial relationship of the three not their individuality alone. The way I prefer to explain it is: "Whatever one determines to be the definition of human, that is what you & I are. Whatever one determines to be the definition of God, that is what the Father, Son & Spirit are in their dealing with us."

About 50 years before Nicea, the ultra-orthodox Latin father Novatian concluded his very lengthy "Treatise on the Trinity" saying
Novatian - De Trinitate

"He therefore is God, but begotten for this special result, that He should be God. He is also the Lord, but born for this very purpose of the Father, that He might be Lord. He is also an Angel, but He was destined of the Father as an Angel to announce the Great Counsel of God. And His divinity is thus declared, that it may not appear by any dissonance or inequality of divinity to have caused two Gods. For all things being subjected to Him as the Son by the Father, while He Himself, with those things which are subjected to Him, is subjected to His Father, He is indeed proved to be Son of His Father; but He is found to be both Lord and God of all else. [/inent]

Personally, I hold that Jesus' purpose in the incarnation was to do away with the man made concept of "God" and introduce us to "our Father". For instance: when the disciples asked Jesus how they should pray, he did not start with "Dear God etc" but "our Father who is in heaven etc".

Karl.C · Jun 4, 2017

oops!]

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2017

Karl.C said:
For decades I've always been welcoming to the guys when they've knocked on my door, and what I related is the essentials of what I remember those guys told me during our chat sessions in my lounge room...

Feel free to correct anything you might consider to be a misrepresentationor misunderstanding on my part.

The LDS faith focuses on being/becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. We do our best to preach of His word, rejoice in it, and follow Him. He is each of our Lord and Savior. We follow Him and strive to emulate Him. If you sit through LDS church, the focus is on things like having Christ-like love, repenting, following in faith, having gratitude, obeying His commandments, etc. We pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

Addressing the things you specifically brought up--

Karl.C said:
they hold that God the Father was once a man like us, living elsewhere in the Cosmos. The Father underwent a progression in character to become a God.

Non-doctrinal speculation not discussed in LDS church and any person can disagree with it.

Karl.C said:
The Son is the biological offspring of the Father & Mrs God. Likewise the Spirit & the Devil.

The Father is spiritually the father of the Son, as well as biologically-- Christ is the only begotten of the Father (though the "how" of that miracle are not known past what's described in Luke).
The Father is also spiritually the father of everyone else that has ever lived and will ever live. Obviously you know who your biological father is.

Karl.C said:
The Devil was at odds with the Son in their contest for the salvation of man. The Devil advocated the coercive stick while the Son advocated the inviting carrot. The Fther & Spirit sided with the Son

The Father already had His plan: one where Christ would be the Savior of the world and things will play out as we know they have. This plan of the Father's means not everyone will be saved (a person can choose to reject God).

When the Father spoke of this plan, Lucifer said "heck no, that's a horrible idea! I have a better one- let me force everyone to obey and I'll be the king and all the glory will be mine* ". He flat out rebelled against the Father. Versus Jesus Christ obeyed the Father and said "Here I am, send me". Jesus Christ willingly always obeyed the Father and drank the bitter cup.

*Obviously I'm cartoonizeing this, I can get you the actual quote if you'd like.

Karl.C said:
and so we have the LDS' triumvirate (which could fall apart).

No.

Karl.C · Jun 4, 2017

Jane_Doe said:

Ditto.

What you relate about the LDS objective is the profession of every christian denomination I've ever come across, though I'll admit that in my experience the LDS' public display is better than many...

Jane_Doe said:
Addressing the things you specifically brought up--

Non-doctrinal speculation not discussed in LDS church and any person can disagree with it.

???

The stuff I brought up is no secret amongst the missionaries I've met, and the ones I've met answered direct questions with direct answers (well, all but one, a Maori guy who was in training and had to defer to his companion from Utah). The writings of Joseph Smith are still held in high esteem by the LDS faithful and were too widely distributed to hide. Same with Young, Cannon, Hunter etc etc

From LDS.org "The Fulness of the Gospel: The Nature of the Godhead". Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Ensign magazine, January 2006
The Fulness of the Gospel: The Nature of the Godhead - Ensign Jan. 2006 - ensign

The Prophet Joseph Smith once taught: “It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, … and that He was once a man like us. … When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them.”

The LDS has had so many detractors in its short history that your superiors don't bother to hide what is known, they just aren't in the habit of advertising the stuff that might make the new-comers & less committed nervous...

Jane_Doe said:
The Father is spiritually the father of the Son, as well as biologically-- Christ is the only begotten of the Father (though the "how" of that miracle are not known past what's described in Luke).

What about his pre-existence? How do you explain the son as "monogenes" as A.John insists?

Jane_Doe said:
The Father is also spiritually the father of everyone else that has ever lived and will ever live. Obviously you know who your biological father is.

If, as I understand the LDS correctly, we all pre-existed our earthly existence, then how were we originated? reated ex-nihilo, via copulation of the the Father & x, other?

Jane_Doe said:
The Father already had His plan: one where Christ would be the Savior of the world and things will play out as we know they have. This plan of the Father's means not everyone will be saved (a person can choose to reject God).

Which destroys the necessity of Satan in the LDS scheme of things as it has been explained to me.

Jane_Doe said:
When the Father spoke of this plan, Lucifer said "heck no, that's a horrible idea! I have a better one- let me force everyone to obey and I'll be the king and all the glory will be mine* ". He flat out rebelled against the Father. Versus Jesus Christ obeyed the Father and said "Here I am, send me". Jesus Christ willingly always obeyed the Father and drank the bitter cup.

That explanation sounds familir to me. In my earlier synopsis I obviously left out important details.

Jane_Doe said:
*Obviously I'm cartoonizeing this, I can get you the actual quote if you'd like.

She's cool...

Here we are suppose to be discussing the Trinity not general LDS opinion. We can do that esewhere.

So getting back on track...

I'll avoid describing the LDS as promoting polytheism or tritheism. We all should well know that such has been laid at the feet of Trinitarianism since the day dot, so the LDS has company amoungst the Nicean Churches.

One thing that particularly puzzles me in LDS teachng: What is the necessity for God our Father to have flesh & bones?

Joseph Smith uniquely taught that...the Father and the Son having bodies of “flesh and bones as tangible as man’s,”

Ensign magazine, January 1989
The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation - Ensign Jan. 1989 - ensign

spockrates · Jun 4, 2017

Jane_Doe said:
Yes. Here for the click-and-search version: Book of Mormon | LDS.org
Here for the if you just want to download the whole thing: Formats and Downloads | LDS.org
(if you want a language other than English, just say so)

Excellent! Thanks

spockrates · Jun 4, 2017

Karl.C said:
I could go along with that, but with a little caution. In mainstream teaching the emphasis is on the filial relationship of the three not their individuality alone. The way I prefer to explain it is: "Whatever one determines to be the definition of human, that is what you & I are. Whatever one determines to be the definition of God, that is what the Father, Son & Spirit are in their dealing with us."

About 50 years before Nicea, the ultra-orthodox Latin father Novatian concluded his very lengthy "Treatise on the Trinity" saying
Novatian - De Trinitate

"He therefore is God, but begotten for this special result, that He should be God. He is also the Lord, but born for this very purpose of the Father, that He might be Lord. He is also an Angel, but He was destined of the Father as an Angel to announce the Great Counsel of God. And His divinity is thus declared, that it may not appear by any dissonance or inequality of divinity to have caused two Gods. For all things being subjected to Him as the Son by the Father, while He Himself, with those things which are subjected to Him, is subjected to His Father, He is indeed proved to be Son of His Father; but He is found to be both Lord and God of all else.

Personally, I hold that Jesus' purpose in the incarnation was to do away with the man made concept of "God" and introduce us to "our Father". For instance: when the disciples asked Jesus how they should pray, he did not start with "Dear God etc" but "our Father who is in heaven etc".

Understood. Thanks. So I find it fascinating that Catholics and Latter Day Saints both believe God to be a what. The difference being this:

Whereas Catholics believe God is a what in three who's, LDS believe God is three who's in a what.

throughfiierytrial · Jun 4, 2017

spockrates said:
@throughfireytrial :

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I'm firmly convinced the Bible is the word of God. But think about it: Although the Bible has pieces of the puzzle for the Trinity, it doesn't contain the completed puzzle, I think.

To get the whole picture, doesn't one need the missing pieces added after the closing of the canon?

I do not believe there are missing pieces, you see it in the Isaiah passage I quoted you alone...which piece/s in your view are missing? List it so I may address that.
Also, be aware that even King David says...
Psalm 131:1:
My heart is not proud, Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
and...
Psalm 139:6:
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain

Or Job 42:3...likewise
Or Romans 11:33:
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!

God gives us all we need for salvation, but ...
Isaiah 55:8-9:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

spockrates · Jun 4, 2017

throughfireytrial said:
I do not believe there are missing pieces, you see it in the Isaiah passage I quoted you alone...which piece/s in your view are missing? List it so I may address that.
Also, be aware that even King David says...
Psalm 131:1:
My heart is not proud, Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
and...
Psalm 139:6:
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain

Or Job 42:3...likewise
Or Romans 11:33:
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!

God gives us all we need for salvation, but ...
Isaiah 55:8-9:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Walking my dog. Will talk later.

spockrates · Jun 4, 2017

throughfireytrial said:
I do not believe there are missing pieces, you see it in the Isaiah passage I quoted you alone...which piece/s in your view are missing? List it so I may address that.
Also, be aware that even King David says...
Psalm 131:1:
My heart is not proud, Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
and...
Psalm 139:6:
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain

Or Job 42:3...likewise
Or Romans 11:33:
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!

God gives us all we need for salvation, but ...
Isaiah 55:8-9:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Hi again @throughfireytrial . So the biblical support for the premises of the logical argument for the Trinity are the pieces of the puzzle. These premises are:

There is only one God. Isaiah 43:10.
The Father is God. 1 Corinthians 8:6.
The Son is God. Hebrews 1:8.
The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3–4.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons. Matthew 3:16.
The one God is a substace that is in three persons.

Therefore,

A. the Bible teaches the Trinity.

The missing puzzle piece is the biblical passage supporting premise (6). Without that, the argument for conclusion (A) is weak, since a logical argument is only as strong as it's weakest premise.

throughfiierytrial · Jun 4, 2017

spockrates said:
Hi again @throughfireytrial . So the biblical support for the premises of the logical argument for the Trinity are the pieces of the puzzle. These premises are:

There is only one God. Isaiah 43:10.

The Father is God. 1 Corinthians 8:6.

The Son is God. Hebrews 1:8.

The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3–4.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons. Matthew 3:16.

The one God is a substace that is in three persons.

Therefore,

A. the Bible teaches the Trinity.

The missing puzzle piece is the biblical passage supporting premise (6). Without that, the argument for conclusion (A) is weak, since a logical argument is only as strong as it's weakest premise.

I, myself, believe that #6 should be omitted. One still has a Trinity. In my view #6 is man's fallible interpretation and must be taken with a grain of salt. I suppose they made that assumption based on the fact that they are One, yet three. Aside from this, that weakness shouldn't lead one to seek out a completely different religion...Mormonism for answers. Search your Scriptures yourself, the Holy Spirit guides us as we search prayerfully.
Look at the answer which was provided to you by Jane_Doe...the question I do not know...her comment on Jesus and Satan is so utterly false and earthly thinking. It is extra-Biblical and it is simply the babblings and ramblings of a man and not a prophet of God at all. Why would God rehash the fall of Satan and contradict His Word? And Jesus is portrayed as God in O.T. You need citations, ask and I'll provide them.
God is a righteous Judge and O.T. Law and Proverbs 11:1 and Proverbs 20:10, 23 state He hates dishonest measures...He judges people by the same standards...problem with Mormonism is that their standards are in a constant state of flux due to their new prophesy...the dead of their own did not go in under the same standards. It is not Truth you'll find in their theology. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. --Hebrews 13:8

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2017

throughfireytrial said:
I, myself, believe that #6 should be omitted. One still has a Trinity. In my view #6 is man's fallible interpretation and must be taken with a grain of salt. I suppose they made that assumption based on the fact that they are One, yet three. Aside from this, that weakness shouldn't lead one to seek out a completely different religion...Mormonism for answers.

If you omit #6, then Mormons count has Trinitarians. It is point #6 that LDS differ from Nicene Christians (the LDS version of #6 would be that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one through unity).

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2017

Karl.C said:
The stuff I brought up is no secret amongst the missionaries I've met, and the ones I've met answered direct questions with direct answers (well, all but one, a Maori guy who was in training and had to defer to his companion from Utah). The writings of Joseph Smith are still held in high esteem by the LDS faithful and were too widely distributed to hide. Same with Young, Cannon, Hunter etc etc

From LDS.org "The Fulness of the Gospel: The Nature of the Godhead". Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Ensign magazine, January 2006
The Fulness of the Gospel: The Nature of the Godhead - Ensign Jan. 2006 - ensign

The Prophet Joseph Smith once taught: “It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, … and that He was once a man like us. … When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them.”

The LDS has had so many detractors in its short history that your superiors don't bother to hide what is known, they just aren't in the habit of advertising the stuff that might make the new-comers & less committed nervous...

There's a huge difference between something being "secret" versus "not canonical doctrine".
--Secret: These speculations here are by NO means secret, in fact it's an FAQ from non-LDS.
--Not canonical doctrine: LDS doctrine is established through scripture and official proclamations. A non-scriptural or non-official statement is not automatically doctrine no matter who did the speaking. LDS don't have an equivalent of Papal Infallibility. We've covered this a couple times on this subforum this week already, so I won't belabor it again here, but if you want we can talk about it PM. Here's a good resource: Approaching Mormon Doctrine
-- Not actively discussed in LDS church -- pretty obvious meaning.
-- A person can be LDS in 100% good standing while totally disagreeing with this-- yep, totally possible. I know more than a few in that boat. It's not cannon nor a focus, so not something we fight about.

Karl.C said:
What about his pre-existence? How do you explain the son as "monogenes" as A.John insists?

Would you mind defining what you mean by "monogenes" here? I'm admittedly not familiar with this term and a quick Google search isn't helping me out.

Karl.C said:
If, as I understand the LDS correctly, we all pre-existed our earthly existence, then how were we originated? reated ex-nihilo, via copulation of the the Father & x, other?

LDS don't believe in exnhilio creation. God does/did create all things, but not out of nothing. How spirits were formed is not something we understand at this time. But we can safely say it wasn't "copulation" cumulating with a physical baby out of a birth canal

Karl.C said:
Which destroys the necessity of Satan in the LDS scheme of things as it has been explained to me.

Satan's role is one of adversary, not of "possible alternative Savior". Christ was always supposed to be the Savior and walks with the Father in joy and triumph. Satan is a fallen rebellious being being of far lessor power that will be missable for eternity.

Karl.C said:
One thing that particularly puzzles me in LDS teachng: What is the necessity for God our Father to have flesh & bones?

Joseph Smith uniquely taught that...the Father and the Son having bodies of “flesh and bones as tangible as man’s,”

Ensign magazine, January 1989
The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation - Ensign Jan. 1989 - ensign

A better citation for this scripture Doctrine and Covenants 130

What about it were you asking? (Sorry if I'm not properly understanding your question). He has a glorified physical body like the Son. We were all made in His image. The Spirit does not have a physical body.

LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

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