Is "Christian Zionism" Biblical ?

Copperhead · Jun 3, 2017

The context is clearly that those religious leaders that JB was addressing did not have the faith of Abraham. Look at the context. JB also tells them to perform works that show a true repentance. Clearly faith is the issue not physical.

Still, your rebuttal doesn't negate the scriptures I quoted. Clearly part of their focus is the end times. You are confusing spiritual Israel with physical Israel. A common mistake that has pervaded the church for a long time. Since Paul wrote the letter to Timothy, the let Paul's explanation in Romans 9, 10, and 11 clarify, where he spends 3 chapters hammering away that God is not thru with physical Israel. Only allegorizing that portion of scripture to the extreme can one come to another conclusion.

Well if the time of Jacob's trouble was the Babylonia Captivity, then God again must be a liar thru Jeremiah. The Jewish Holocaust of the 1930's and 1940's clearly exceeded anything that Babylon did to the Jewish people. Yet, the passage in Jeremiah 30:7 clearly says that what it is describing, there has none like it that has reached it's magnitude for the Jewish people. And has Isreal been saved yet? Obviously not. Yet the passage clearly states Israel will be saved out of it. They will worship David their King, a clear reference to the Messiah who will reign on David's thrown from Jerusalem since David has already passed when Jeremiah wrote this.

And later in Jeremiah 30:11 in this same discussion, God clearly states he will make an end to all nations from which He scattered them. That can only mean a return from the Diaspora that has and is occurring now, and the end times when Jesus will judge the nations on how they treated Israel as expounded in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus is a Jew, of tribe of Judah, and descendent of King David. His brethren in this passage are clearly the Jewish people of the last days. The Church is identified with Jesus, so it makes no sense of the comments by those nations in this passage where they ask "when did we see you" in the conditions Jesus mentions. The Jewish people are not identified with Jesus in this present age, so the only meaning that "brethren" can mean in this passage is His Jewish brethren.

And it fits exceedingly well with the promises God made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regarding their descendants.... I will bless them who bless you and curse those who curse you.

This idea that Israel is who crucified Jesus, read this one passage later on in Acts. It clearly means that everyone, including the Jewish leaders, are guilty. Both Jews and Gentiles.

Acts 4:27-28 (NKJV) 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

BABerean2 · Jun 3, 2017

Copperhead said:
The context is clearly that those religious leaders that JB was addressing did not have the faith of Abraham. Look at the context. JB also tells them to perform works that show a true repentance. Clearly faith is the issue not physical.

Still, your rebuttal doesn't negate the scriptures I quoted. Clearly part of their focus is the end times. You are confusing spiritual Israel with physical Israel. A common mistake that has pervaded the church for a long time. Since Paul wrote the letter to Timothy, the let Paul's explanation in Romans 9, 10, and 11 clarify, where he spends 3 chapters hammering away that God is not thru with physical Israel. Only allegorizing that portion of scripture to the extreme can one come to another conclusion.

Well if the time of Jacob's trouble was the Babylonia Captivity, then God again must be a liar thru Jeremiah. The Jewish Holocaust of the 1930's and 1940's clearly exceeded anything that Babylon did to the Jewish people. Yet, the passage in Jeremiah 30:7 clearly says that what it is describing, there has none like it that has reached it's magnitude for the Jewish people. And has Isreal been saved yet? Obviously not. Yet the passage clearly states Israel will be saved out of it. They will worship David their King, a clear reference to the Messiah who will reign on David's thrown from Jerusalem since David has already passed when Jeremiah wrote this. And later in Jeremiah 30:11 in this same discussion, God clearly states he will make an end to all nations from which He scattered them. That can only mean a return from the Diaspora that has and is occurring now, and the end times when Jesus will judge the nations on how they treated Israel as expounded in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus is a Jew, of tribe of Judah, and descendent of King David. His brethren in this passage are clearly the Jewish people of the last days. The Church is identified with Jesus, so it makes no sense of the comments by those nations in this passage where they ask "when did we see you" in the conditions Jesus mentions.

Like many other good, honest, Christians of our time, you have forced the text of scripture to fit the system of interpretation that John Nelson Darby brought to America, about the time of the Civil War. It was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and has since spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in America. For many of us, it is all we have ever heard. No where in Romans 9, 10, or 11, did Paul ever say that modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church. He said in Romans 11 that the branches broken off can be grafted back in, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.

An understanding of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, turns modern Dispensational Theology into a vapor. The New Covenant is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

(NKJV)

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Copperhead · Jun 3, 2017

I don't know if Darby or whoever viewed it this way, and I do not have a Scofield reference Bible. It is pretty much what I have determined on my own thru a lot of study, prayer, and guiding of the HS. I have read what a lot of folks have written also, both liberal and conservative in nature. I do know that one has to spiritualize (also known as allegorizing) scripture to the extreme to come about another conclusion that God is thru with the physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So while you can claim I am doing what Darby did, I then can equally claim you are doing what Origin and Augustine did. And their theology and writing were quoted as justification by the Nazis. Their theology of God has rejected the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob led from Origin and Augustine right to the gas chambers at Auschwitz.

Maybe it is a virus. Again, it might be the antidote to a virus that has already been. I will leave it to the HS to be the judge. I know in whom I have placed my trust. I am not a dispensationalist or most any other category that folks get pigeon holed in, and I am a adherent to no man but Jesus. I take the Bible seriously and follow a maxim of sound scripture exegetics: when the scripture makes sense, seek no other sense.

And I follow Peter's advice:

2 Peter 3:14-16 (NKJV) Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

BABerean2 · Jun 3, 2017

Copperhead said:
I don't know if Darby or whoever viewed it this way, and I do not have a Scofield reference Bible. It is pretty much what I have determined on my own thru a lot of study, prayer, and guiding of the HS. I have read what a lot of folks have written also, both liberal and conservative in nature. I do know that one has to spiritualize (also known as allegorizing) scripture to the extreme to come about another conclusion that God is thru with the physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So while you can claim I am doing what Darby did, I then can equally claim you are doing what Origin and Augustine did. And their theology and writing were quoted as justification by the Nazis. Their theology of God has rejected the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob led from Origin and Augustine right to the gas chambers at Auschwitz.

Maybe it is a virus. Again, it might be the antidote to a virus that has already been. I will leave it to the HS to be the judge. I know in whom I have placed my trust. I am not a dispensationalist or most any other category that folks get pigeon holed in, and I am a adherent to no man but Jesus. I take the Bible seriously and follow a maxim of sound scripture exegetics: when the scripture makes sense, seek no other sense.

And I follow Peter's advice:

2 Peter 3:14-16 (NKJV) Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

At one time I was a deacon in a conservative Bible Church.
After a while, I could not get my Bible to agree with what was being taught in Sunday School.

I set out to find out who first taught the doctrine and when it was brought to America.

If you think modern Jews will one day come to salvation outside of the Church, then you are promoting the greatest error of Darby's doctrine.

Darby claimed that the "Church Age" of the "Age of Grace" would come to an end 7 years before the Second Coming, at the pretrib rapture of the Church.
Darby said that God would then go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system.

If you believe any of the above, you did not get it from the Bible.

If you study the Bible from an understanding of the New Covenant, you will reject everything that Darby promoted above.

The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.
The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13.
Therefore, God is not going back to the Old Covenant system during a future time.

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Copperhead · Jun 3, 2017

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said Jews would come to salvation outside the Church or that God was returning to the covenant of the law. Actually. no one comes to salvation because of the church, in or out of it. They come to salvation thru the completed work of Jesus the Messiah after being drawn by the HS. By recognizing Yeshua (Jesus) as God in the flesh and the atonement given to those who place their trust in Him thru His death, burial, and resurrection. At that point, they are sealed by the HS and become part of the body of Christ, the church. And all Jews eventually will come to salvation thru the Messiah. The OT and the NT make that very clear Hosea and other prophets especially. There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

There were many covenants made with Israel. The covenant that God made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regarding their descendants was an unconditional covenant and pertained to physical descendants. There was also the Davidic covenant the the Messiah would come from the line of David and reign on David's thrown, also unconditional. There was also the covenant God made with Israel at the giving of the Ten Commandments and the Law, the Mosaic covenant. And God made a covenant with the physical land that He gave to Israel. He made it clear that one of the reasons they went into the Babylonian captivity is because they didn't honor the sabbath year for the land as stated in Leviticus 25:4. And the people owed the land 70 years exiled from the land for the number of sabbath years they didn't allow the land to rest from crop production in Jeremiah 26:34 . Also, what of the Noahic covenant? Yet another unconditional one. That is your homework assignment. Don't mix up your covenants.

Indeed, Jeremiah declared a new covenant. The old covenant of the Mosaic law could not save. The Apostles beat that idea into everyone's head. But that new covenant does not pertain to the other covenant that God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regarding their physical descendants. In Jeremiah also, He made it clear that covenant would be until the sun no longer shines, the moon no longer shines, and the waves of the sea no longer roar. You throw out the all the other covenants and say they were replaced by the new covenant, you are also throwing out the Davidic covenant that the messiah would reign on David's thrown also.

You can throw out all the labels you want. Doesn't phase me a bit. I do not claim to be in any camp.

The problem you are revealing, is that you do not have a firm grounding in ecclesiology, the study of what the Church is, its mission, and its destiny. And that can mess up ones eschatology pretty bad. It is that confusion that leads to some rather bizarre ideas that scripture doesn't imply.

To me, I don't study the Bible from any perspective but the Bible itself. I actually adhere to the legal principles expounded in the OT law and promoted by one of the best legal scholars ever to have lived... the Apostle Paul. Specifically, that the only way to legally prove a issue is on the testimony of two or more witnesses. We have those two witnesses. The OT and the NT. Any position one holds must be supported in both OT and NT. Remember, Paul, Peter, James, et al of the NT had only the OT. Anything they taught had to stand up in the light of revealed scripture of the OT. So, everything they taught can be found in the OT if one looks. That eliminates many doctrinal conflicts. Live up to your screen name and do as the Bereans did.... they searched the scriptures (OT, as that was all they had) daily to see if these things were so. Paul commended them for that.

Deuteronomy 19:15 (NKJV) .... by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.

keras · Jun 3, 2017

Copperhead said:
I have read what a lot of folks have written also, both liberal and conservative in nature. I do know that one has to spiritualize (also known as allegorizing) scripture to the extreme to come about another conclusion that God is thru with the physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

With this issue of who is the true Israel, 3 factors must be considered:
1/ The Israelites of God were always only His true believers. Those who were not, of the ancient people of Israel; died in the desert, did not belong to the 7000 of Elijah's day, and were told that the Kingdom was taken from them. Matthew 21:43.
Since Jesus came, salvation is offered to all who will accept it. John 3:16 And Christians are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16
2/ As over 100 generations have passed since Abraham, it can be mathematically and genetically proved that every person alive today has some of his DNA.
3/ Take note that the Bible prophets in more than 160 prophesies, carefully maintain the separation between Israel and Judah.
The Northern ten tribes of the House of Israel broke away from Judah after Solomon died. They apostatized and were taken out of the Land by Assyria. They did not assimilate and are noted in ancient inscriptions and by historians, by various names. It is a historical and Biblical fact that they migrated from the Caucasus region, mostly across Europe. Jeremiah 31:21
There is documented, archaeological, heraldic and Biblical proof that we Western, Caucasian people are descended from Israel. Jesus came to save the 'lost sheep of Israel'. He was in Judah and the Jews rejected Him, but He sent His disciples out to the world and they achieved the task of Christianizing mainly the Western nations. Now we send out missionaries to most every other nation.
So God's promises to the Patriarchs will be fulfilled. Their descendants, natural and spiritual, will occupy all of the holy Land; from the Nile to the Euphrates. A vast multitude, as many as the sands of the sea, will live in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, Revelation 7:9, soon after that entire area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord's terrible Day of wrath. Deuteronomy 32:43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1, Revelation 6:12-17, +

Copperhead · Jun 3, 2017

You make a case from the NT. Substantiate it from the OT. Any issue must be verified on the testimony of two witnesses, both the Old and New Testaments.

And you need to read more than Jeremiah. In 1st and 2nd Chronicles, you will find that of the 10 northern tribes, those that remained faithful to the Mosaic Covenant and Jerusalem, they migrated south from their tribal territories and joined themselves with the house of Israel.

There is no "proof" that we are descended from Israel. That is the old British Israelism idea that has been disproven quite well. I would go so far, quite comfortably, in calling it heretical teaching.

All of Israel down to the lowliest shepherd working the pastures was the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". You are confusing many things. Being physically lost vs spiritually lost. The big one is that the 10 northern tribes were "lost". Judah and Benjamin were the southern tribes. The Levites were the priests and resided in cities of both the southern and the northern kingdoms. Obviously, they didn't disappear and were serving in Jesus' day. In Luke 2:36, Anna was of the tribe of Asher. Another one that didn't get misplaced. James wrote to the 12 tribes and says so in James 1:1. It would be a stretch to say Jesus's brother and head of the Church in Jerusalem didn't have a clue what he was talking about. Acts 26:6-7, Paul is clearly referencing the 12 tribes. Ezra outlines that Judah, Benjamin, and the Levites return. All the tribes are referenced by Ezra here:

Ezra 6:16-17 (NKJV) Then the children of Israel, the priests and the Levites and the rest of the descendants of the captivity, celebrated the dedication of this house of God with joy. 17 And they offered sacrifices at the dedication of this house of God, one hundred bulls, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs, and as a sin offering for all Israel twelve male goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

Really out in the stratosphere to allegorize that Ezra was only thinking of the 12 tribes as opposed to actually having people from the 12 tribes among those that returned.

The Sons of Soloman's servants listed in Ezra 2:55-60 are from all the tribes as expounded by 1 Samuel 8:11-16.

Might want to rethink your position. Presuming what the Bible says and not letting it say what it actually does can lead to all sorts of problems. And quit being led about by false doctrine from those that are either scripturally illiterate or wolfs that have infiltrated the flock.

Ephesians 4:14 (NKJV) that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

BABerean2 · Jun 3, 2017

Copperhead said:
Live up to your screen name and do as the Bereans did.... they searched the scriptures (OT, as that was all they had) daily to see if these things were so. Paul commended them for that.

After completing the initial research on the origin of modern Dispensational Theology, I produced this video for YouTube.

Many of those in the modern Church have no idea where their doctrine came from.
Some of those that do would rather that those sitting in the pews not know where it came from.
Those promoting the doctrine in my former Church body never told me where it came from or that it is a doctrine that is less than 200 years old.

If you will take the time to watch this, then you can feel free to lecture me on whether I am acting as a "Berean".

All false doctrines are exposed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

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Copperhead · Jun 3, 2017

You keep deferring to something that you claim I am a part of. Would you at least do me a favor and prove that I am wrong from scripture. Prove how I have taken anything out of context or twisted it. Instead of at least offering that courtesy, you instead try to pigeon hole me into a particular group. I already told you, I fall into no camp nor am I a follower of any particular teacher or teaching. I am not even a part of a denominational church that might espouse what you claim I am, though I am involved with the local church. I have yet to quote or refer to anything outside of scripture itself. I don't need to. Scripture does an exceedingly good job of covering the issues. Especially when one takes ALL of scripture and compare it. It is highly disingenuous of you to go down this path. Yet, that is all you do with me with your Darby comments and now the video. Sound hermeneutic principles is the only solution.

There is a maxim in discourse. You can always tell, when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, which one you have hit. The one that yelps the loudest.

You say you happened upon that little nugget to proof your point, in the video, but did you happen to check out Ephraim of Nisbus (also known as Ephraim the Syrian) who also held the similar views I do and taught in the 4th century? And what of this group. All of which held similar positions and discoursed against covenant theology, or it is now called, replacement theology.

� Clement of Rome (bishop of Rome, fl. ca. 90-100)

� Polycarp (bishop of Smyrna in western Asia Minor; ca. 70-155/160) and affiliated with the Apostle John.

� Papias (bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor, ca 70-130/155)

� Ignatius (bishop of Antioch in Syria, d. ca. 98/117)

� Author of Epistle of Barnabas (70-132)

� Justin Martyr (Samaria and Rome (ca. 100-165)

� Tatian (Assyrian, Rome, Antioch in Syria, ca. 120-180)

� Irenaeus (Asia Minor, bishop of Lyons, Gaul [France], ca 120-ca. 202)

� Hippolytus (presbyter and teacher in Rome, d. ca. 236)

� Tertullian (Carthage in Northern Africa, 150-225)

� Cyprian (bishop of Carthage, 200-258)

� Commodian (Africa, 200-270)

� Victorinus (bishop of Pettau, in Austria, 240-303)

� Nepos (230-280) (Arsinoe in Africa)

� Coracion (Egypt, 230-280)

� Lactantius (Italy, 240-330)

� Methodius (Thessalonica and Slavia, 250-311)

The whole idea that the Church has replaced Israel started coming around with Origin of Alexandria and became fully developed with Augustine. And was fully adopted by the Roman Catholic church (to this day by the way), and affected most everything that followed. The Reformers did an excellent job or pressing home the idea of justification by faith alone, for which they paid dearly for in lives, but they dropped the ball big time in not addressing the heresies of replacement theology and eschatology.

But at least we got thru all the clutter and the discussion has finally gotten down to the major division of eschatology that has been part of church dialogue for better part of 2000 years. And it all centers around hermeneutics and ecclesiology.

keras · Jun 3, 2017

Copperhead said:
There is no "proof" that we are descended from Israel. That is the old British Israelism idea that has been disproven quite well. I would go so far, quite comfortably, in calling it heretical teaching

I stand by what I say in #134.
Do not drag up British Israelitism; they were wrong in thinking it would be only Britain, its Dominions and America that would inherit the Kingdom. But the truth is; it is every born again Christian, from every race, nation and language that are the people of God. Only with the proviso that a majority will be actual descendants of Jacob, from the 10 Northern tribes. As all the European nations basically are.
As I posted in Jeremiah 31:21, the waymarks [dolmens] are right across Europe, left by the migrating Israelites. They will return to their heritage. Psalms 60:-5, Hosea 2:23, Isaiah 49:8
This will fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs. Ezekiel 20:39-44

jgr · Jun 3, 2017

Copperhead said:
You keep deferring to something that you claim I am a part of. Would you at least do me a favor and prove that I am wrong from scripture. Prove how I have taken anything out of context or twisted it. Instead of at least offering that courtesy, you instead try to pigeon hole me into a particular group. I already told you, I fall into no camp nor am I a follower of any particular teacher or teaching. I am not even a part of a denominational church that might espouse what you claim I am, though I am involved with the local church. I have yet to quote or refer to anything outside of scripture itself. I don't need to. Scripture does an exceedingly good job of covering the issues. Especially when one takes ALL of scripture and compare it. It is highly disingenuous of you to go down this path. Yet, that is all you do with me with your Darby comments and now the video. Sound hermeneutic principles is the only solution.

There is a maxim in discourse. You can always tell, when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, which one you have hit. The one that yelps the loudest.

You say you happened upon that little nugget to proof your point, in the video, but did you happen to check out Ephraim of Nisbus (also known as Ephraim the Syrian) who also held the similar views I do and taught in the 4th century? And what of this group. All of which held similar positions and discoursed against covenant theology, or it is now called, replacement theology.

� Clement of Rome (bishop of Rome, fl. ca. 90-100)

� Polycarp (bishop of Smyrna in western Asia Minor; ca. 70-155/160) and affiliated with the Apostle John.

� Papias (bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor, ca 70-130/155)

� Ignatius (bishop of Antioch in Syria, d. ca. 98/117)

� Author of Epistle of Barnabas (70-132)

� Justin Martyr (Samaria and Rome (ca. 100-165)

� Tatian (Assyrian, Rome, Antioch in Syria, ca. 120-180)

� Irenaeus (Asia Minor, bishop of Lyons, Gaul [France], ca 120-ca. 202)

� Hippolytus (presbyter and teacher in Rome, d. ca. 236)

� Tertullian (Carthage in Northern Africa, 150-225)

� Cyprian (bishop of Carthage, 200-258)

� Commodian (Africa, 200-270)

� Victorinus (bishop of Pettau, in Austria, 240-303)

� Nepos (230-280) (Arsinoe in Africa)

� Coracion (Egypt, 230-280)

� Lactantius (Italy, 240-330)

� Methodius (Thessalonica and Slavia, 250-311)

The whole idea that the Church has replaced Israel started coming around with Origin of Alexandria and became fully developed with Augustine. And was fully adopted by the Roman Catholic church (to this day by the way), and affected most everything that followed. The Reformers did an excellent job or pressing home the idea of justification by faith alone, for which they paid dearly for in lives, but they dropped the ball big time in not addressing the heresies of replacement theology and eschatology.

But at least we got thru all the clutter and the discussion has finally gotten down to the major division of eschatology that has been part of church dialogue for better part of 2000 years. And it all centers around hermeneutics and ecclesiology.

Justin Martyr, "Dialogue with Trypho"

[1] And Trypho remarked, What is this you say? that none of us shall inherit anything on the holy mountain of God? And I replied, I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God.

[2] What larger measure of grace, then, did Christ bestow on Abraham? This, namely, that He called him with His voice by the like calling, telling him to quit the land wherein he dwelt. And He has called all of us by that voice, and we have left already the way of living in which we used to spend our days, passing our time in evil after the fashions of the other inhabitants of the earth; and along with Abraham we shall inherit the holy land, when we shall receive the inheritance for an endless eternity, being children of Abraham through the like faith. For as he believed the voice of God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, in like manner we having believed God’s voice spoken by the apostles of Christ, and promulgated to us by the prophets, have renounced even to death all the things of the world. Accordingly, He promises to him a nation of similar faith, God-fearing, righteous, and delighting the Father; but it is not you, ‘in whom is no faith.’

[3] What, then? says Trypho; are you Israel? and speaks He such things of you? . . . . "As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David, are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ.

That sounds pretty covenantal to me.

jgr · Jun 3, 2017

Copperhead said:
You keep deferring to something that you claim I am a part of. Would you at least do me a favor and prove that I am wrong from scripture. Prove how I have taken anything out of context or twisted it. Instead of at least offering that courtesy, you instead try to pigeon hole me into a particular group. I already told you, I fall into no camp nor am I a follower of any particular teacher or teaching. I am not even a part of a denominational church that might espouse what you claim I am, though I am involved with the local church. I have yet to quote or refer to anything outside of scripture itself. I don't need to. Scripture does an exceedingly good job of covering the issues. Especially when one takes ALL of scripture and compare it. It is highly disingenuous of you to go down this path. Yet, that is all you do with me with your Darby comments and now the video. Sound hermeneutic principles is the only solution.

There is a maxim in discourse. You can always tell, when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, which one you have hit. The one that yelps the loudest.

You say you happened upon that little nugget to proof your point, in the video, but did you happen to check out Ephraim of Nisbus (also known as Ephraim the Syrian) who also held the similar views I do and taught in the 4th century? And what of this group. All of which held similar positions and discoursed against covenant theology, or it is now called, replacement theology.

� Clement of Rome (bishop of Rome, fl. ca. 90-100)

� Polycarp (bishop of Smyrna in western Asia Minor; ca. 70-155/160) and affiliated with the Apostle John.

� Papias (bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor, ca 70-130/155)

� Ignatius (bishop of Antioch in Syria, d. ca. 98/117)

� Author of Epistle of Barnabas (70-132)

� Justin Martyr (Samaria and Rome (ca. 100-165)

� Tatian (Assyrian, Rome, Antioch in Syria, ca. 120-180)

� Irenaeus (Asia Minor, bishop of Lyons, Gaul [France], ca 120-ca. 202)

� Hippolytus (presbyter and teacher in Rome, d. ca. 236)

� Tertullian (Carthage in Northern Africa, 150-225)

� Cyprian (bishop of Carthage, 200-258)

� Commodian (Africa, 200-270)

� Victorinus (bishop of Pettau, in Austria, 240-303)

� Nepos (230-280) (Arsinoe in Africa)

� Coracion (Egypt, 230-280)

� Lactantius (Italy, 240-330)

� Methodius (Thessalonica and Slavia, 250-311)

The whole idea that the Church has replaced Israel started coming around with Origin of Alexandria and became fully developed with Augustine. And was fully adopted by the Roman Catholic church (to this day by the way), and affected most everything that followed. The Reformers did an excellent job or pressing home the idea of justification by faith alone, for which they paid dearly for in lives, but they dropped the ball big time in not addressing the heresies of replacement theology and eschatology.

But at least we got thru all the clutter and the discussion has finally gotten down to the major division of eschatology that has been part of church dialogue for better part of 2000 years. And it all centers around hermeneutics and ecclesiology.

Irenaeus, "Against Heresies", 4.36.2

But last of all He sent to those unbelievers His own Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, whom the wicked husbandmen cast out of the vineyard when they had slain Him. Wherefore the Lord God did even give it up (no longer hedged around, but thrown open throughout all the world) to other husbandmen, who render the fruits in their seasons,-the beautiful elect tower being also raised everywhere. For the illustrious Church is [now] everywhere, and everywhere is the winepress digged: because those who do receive the Spirit are everywhere. For inasmuch as the former have rejected the Son of God, and cast Him out of the vineyard when they slew Him, God has justly rejected them, and given to the Gentiles outside the vineyard the fruits of its cultivation. This is in accordance with what Jeremiah says, "The Lord hath rejected and cast off the nation which does these things; for the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the Lord."

That too.

jgr · Jun 3, 2017

Copperhead said:
You keep deferring to something that you claim I am a part of. Would you at least do me a favor and prove that I am wrong from scripture. Prove how I have taken anything out of context or twisted it. Instead of at least offering that courtesy, you instead try to pigeon hole me into a particular group. I already told you, I fall into no camp nor am I a follower of any particular teacher or teaching. I am not even a part of a denominational church that might espouse what you claim I am, though I am involved with the local church. I have yet to quote or refer to anything outside of scripture itself. I don't need to. Scripture does an exceedingly good job of covering the issues. Especially when one takes ALL of scripture and compare it. It is highly disingenuous of you to go down this path. Yet, that is all you do with me with your Darby comments and now the video. Sound hermeneutic principles is the only solution.

There is a maxim in discourse. You can always tell, when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, which one you have hit. The one that yelps the loudest.

You say you happened upon that little nugget to proof your point, in the video, but did you happen to check out Ephraim of Nisbus (also known as Ephraim the Syrian) who also held the similar views I do and taught in the 4th century? And what of this group. All of which held similar positions and discoursed against covenant theology, or it is now called, replacement theology.

� Clement of Rome (bishop of Rome, fl. ca. 90-100)

� Polycarp (bishop of Smyrna in western Asia Minor; ca. 70-155/160) and affiliated with the Apostle John.

� Papias (bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor, ca 70-130/155)

� Ignatius (bishop of Antioch in Syria, d. ca. 98/117)

� Author of Epistle of Barnabas (70-132)

� Justin Martyr (Samaria and Rome (ca. 100-165)

� Tatian (Assyrian, Rome, Antioch in Syria, ca. 120-180)

� Irenaeus (Asia Minor, bishop of Lyons, Gaul [France], ca 120-ca. 202)

� Hippolytus (presbyter and teacher in Rome, d. ca. 236)

� Tertullian (Carthage in Northern Africa, 150-225)

� Cyprian (bishop of Carthage, 200-258)

� Commodian (Africa, 200-270)

� Victorinus (bishop of Pettau, in Austria, 240-303)

� Nepos (230-280) (Arsinoe in Africa)

� Coracion (Egypt, 230-280)

� Lactantius (Italy, 240-330)

� Methodius (Thessalonica and Slavia, 250-311)

The whole idea that the Church has replaced Israel started coming around with Origin of Alexandria and became fully developed with Augustine. And was fully adopted by the Roman Catholic church (to this day by the way), and affected most everything that followed. The Reformers did an excellent job or pressing home the idea of justification by faith alone, for which they paid dearly for in lives, but they dropped the ball big time in not addressing the heresies of replacement theology and eschatology.

But at least we got thru all the clutter and the discussion has finally gotten down to the major division of eschatology that has been part of church dialogue for better part of 2000 years. And it all centers around hermeneutics and ecclesiology.

Tertullian, "An Answer to the Jews"

For, withal, according to the memorial records of the divine Scriptures, the people of the Jews--that is, the more ancient--quite forsook God, and did degrading service to idols, and, abandoning the Divinity, was surrendered to images; while "the people" said to Aaron, "Make us gods to go before us."
And when the gold out of the necklaces of the women and the rings of the men had been wholly smelted by fire, and there had come forth a calf-like head, to this figment Israel with one consent (abandoning God) gave honour, saying, "These are the gods who brought us from the land of Egypt." For thus, in the later times in which kings were governing them, did they again, in conjunction with Jeroboam, worship golden kine, and groves, and enslave themselves to Baal. Whence is proved that they have ever been depicted, out of the volume of the divine Scriptures, as guilty of the crime of idolatry; whereas our "less"--that is, posterior--people, quitting the idols which formerly it used slavishly to serve, has been converted to the same God from whom Israel, as we have above related, had departed. For thus has the "less"--that is, posterior--people overcome the"greater people," while it attains the grace of divine favour, from which Israel has been divorced.

That too.

BABerean2 · Jun 4, 2017

Copperhead said:
There were many covenants made with Israel. The covenant that God made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regarding their descendants was an unconditional covenant and pertained to physical descendants. There was also the Davidic covenant the the Messiah would come from the line of David and reign on David's thrown, also unconditional. There was also the covenant God made with Israel at the giving of the Ten Commandments and the Law, the Mosaic covenant. And God made a covenant with the physical land that He gave to Israel. He made it clear that one of the reasons they went into the Babylonian captivity is because they didn't honor the sabbath year for the land as stated in Leviticus 25:4. And the people owed the land 70 years exiled from the land for the number of sabbath years they didn't allow the land to rest from crop production in Jeremiah 26:34 . Also, what of the Noahic covenant? Yet another unconditional one. That is your homework assignment. Don't mix up your covenants.

You are correct in saying that the Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional and linked to genealogy.
It is found fulfilled in the first verse in the New Testament.

Mat 1:1　 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:　

This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians chapter 3 who makes it plain that the promise made to Abraham only applied to One Seed, instead of the many seeds.

Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.
　

The Sinai Covenant is not unconditional, because it contains IF-THEN statements.

Exo_19:5　 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.

Has God cast away the Israelite people?
Paul says absolutely not in Romans 11:1.
However, we find in the rest of the passage that they can be grafted back into the olive tree only through faith in Christ.
This is the reason that my wife and I support ministries which are taking the Gospel to the Jewish people.

However, we cannot ignore Timothy's warning against genealogy.

1Ti 1:4　 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.　

In Matthew chapter 21 Christ makes it clear that the kingdom would be taken away from the nation of Israel and it would be given to another. That other is made up of individuals who accept Him as Savior.

Mat 21:37　 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'　
Mat 21:38　 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'　
Mat 21:39　 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.　
Mat 21:40　 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"　
Mat 21:41　 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons."　
Mat 21:42　 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?　
Mat 21:43　 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.　
(This statement makes it clear that the kingdom is taken from the nation of Israel. Jesus did not say that it would be given back to them at a later time.)

Jesus said the kingdom would be taken from the nation who rejected the chief cornerstone and it would be given to a nation who accepted the chief cornerstone.

That nation which accepted the cornerstone, is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

1Pe 2:4　 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,　
1Pe 2:5　 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.　
1Pe 2:6　 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME."　
1Pe 2:7　 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE,"　
(Compare this verse to Matthew 21:42.)
1Pe 2:8　 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.　
1Pe 2:9　 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;　
1Pe 2:10　 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.　

Is there hope for the Israelite people?

Yes, but like all people, it is through individual faith in the Jewish Messiah and the New Covenant He fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary.

Based on 1 Timothy 1:4, it has nothing to do with DNA.

This Jewish man found Jeremiah 31:31-34 in his Hebrew scriptures and came to understand the New Covenant promise. He was grafted back into the Olive Tree of Romans 11, through faith in Christ.

.

Copperhead · Jun 4, 2017

None of that you posted has anything to do with the Abrahamic Covenant. It all references spiritual conditions. Still, you confuse covenants and physical vs spiritual Israel. Justin Martyr was right and you posted it with my thanks! We shall inherit with the patriarchs and the prophets along with the just men who are descended from Jacob. The key there is "along with". We don't replace them and it is recognized in that statement that there are literal physical descedants according to the promises of God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Well done! You made my case for me! We are indeed grafted into the tree as the scripture says. Paul made it clear we do not replace the tree. Only some of the branches are cut off from the tree. We are not genetically tied to seed of Abraham, but we are spiritually tied to him because of faith. Paul makes it clear we are wild olive tree branches that are grafted into their Olive tree. And that is basically what your references are saying also, though they used vineyard in some places. The wild branches are not cast off forever. Physical descendants of Israel will indeed one day be saved by the same Messiah that saves gentiles who place their trust in Him.

I suggest you re-read the entire chapter of Romans 11, without any preconceptions. Just let the words themselves say what they do. Paul does an excellent job of putting this all in perspective for you better than I can. And it doesn't allow for some goofy stuff like there are no physical Jews or that the Gentiles are now the Jews or whatever type of wild ideas there are along those lines.

But be careful... Paul also makes it very clear we should not fall into pride that we have been grafted into their tree. We are not better than the branches, nor have we totally replaced them. They will one day be grafted back into their own tree.

I shouldn't be surprised in all this. Even before the NT scriptures were completely written, the church was in deep trouble. The letters to the 7 churches in The Revelation makes that pretty clear. And even in some of the issues we are discussing here.

Copperhead · Jun 4, 2017

This has all been a good discussion. Passion on both sides without condemning anyone, as it should be. Just some friendly sparring. But as for whether there is no way there can be physical Jews, one still is left with wondering why Paul said these things, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, if there are no physical, earthly differences and Jews cannot claim lineage?.

Romans 1:16 (NKJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Romans 2:9-10 (NKJV) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 11:1-4 (NKJV) I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

And if there are no physical descendants that can claim lineage, it puts this passage up in the air:

Revelation 7:2-8 (NKJV) Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

That then begs the question... if there can be no claim to direct lineage to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then how can these be separated for the service of God in the last days? That would imply also that they are ones who placed their trust in the Messiah as we have.

DennisTate · Jun 4, 2017

ChristianFromKazakhstan said:
Agenda of Jesus is global and all-human, not local or national. There's no "chosen people". The whole world has been chosen by the love of Jesus.

What about the idea of a coming modern Cyrus type of political leader as predicted by a Pastor from Uganda?

I think I first read his article back in 2011 or 2012. It does sound like what is happening now.

Eporu Ronald Alfred

Kakira Deliverance Church,P.O. Box 3191, Kakira, Jinja, Uganda...…

Dear brethren, I salute you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ!RE: SHARING NEW DISCOVERIES OF THE TRUTH IN BIBLE PROPHECY CONCERNING THE IMMINENT HEALING AND UNITY OF THE CHURCH

I am mesmerized by the truth in bible prophecy that the Spirit of God has been revealing over the recent years. Secret things belong to God and those that are revealed belong to us and our children... (Deut 29: 29).

1. King Cyrus the great ruled his country 555 years Before Christ i.e. from 576 BC to 530 BC and authorised the rebuilding of the second temple in Jerusalem. Cyrus of the Old Testament is hence associated with the number 555 and is the shadow figure of incoming Cyrus II of the New Testament. You may learn more about his history from the internet and scriptures. This new truth enables us to identify the leadership of the world that will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem as prophesied in book of Isaiah before the rise of antichrist. Cyrus II is coming to revive the evangelical/Pentecostal church in Jerusalem and restore the headquarters of the church in same city where the church was born. He is set to strip Babylon of the vessels of the temple and the name of the Lord God and transfer that crown back to Jerusalem thus leaving Babylon naked.

Cyrus will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem in fulfilment of the prophecy of Jesus as written in the book of John 2:18-23 and the prophecy of Isaiah as written in chapters 40, 41, 45 and 47 of the book of Isaiah. Jesus regarded the temple as the symbol of his own body while saying that he had the power to lay it down on the first day (1st millennium) and rebuild or raise it up on the 3rd day (3rd millennium). Remember that one day in the eyes of God is the same as one thousand years (millennium) as stated in book of 2 Peter 3:8. Rebuilding of the temple is thus associated with unification of the church.

Cyrus II will rebuild the temple in honour of our lord Jesus Christ. The temple will be the unifying (rallying) point of the world wide evangelical church as the original headquarters of the church. Psalms133 denotes that there is such a powerful anointing that comes along with unity among brethren. Unification of the whole body of Jesus Christ will make the church so powerful that she will overrun the world within a short time before the return of our lord Jesus Christ. A divided church is a powerless church whereas a united church is a powerful church. The church can only be able to fulfil her ultimate mission of revealing Jesus to the world once we get united as one body of Jesus Christ following his last prayer for his disciples as written in John 17:20-23.

Cyrus II will erase that false image of Jesus that the counterfeit and Idolatrous state church of Babylon has been projecting around the world and revive the original church that projects the true brilliant image of Jesus Christ. Haggai 2:9 says that the glory of the latter church (temple) will be greater than the glory of the former church (temple).The rise of Cyrus will also usher in the ultimate fulfilment of the prophecy of Joel 2:28 where God intends to pour out His Spirit on all flesh in these last days. The era of Cyrus brings the gentile period of grace to its close and leads to the restoration of the Jewish period of grace and salvation.

2. King Manasseh was the shadow figure (forerunner) of the antichrist in the Old Testament who ruled over Jerusalem exactly 666 years Before Christ i.e. from 697 BC to 642 BC. (2 chronicle 33: 1-2 and 2 kings 21: 1-17). Antichrist is associated with the number 666 as written in the book of Revelation 13:18. Manasseh was the most evil king to have ever ruled over the city of Jerusalem and kingdom of Judah.

Manasseh is reported to have killed so many innocent people in Jerusalem that the streets of Jerusalem were flowing with blood; he worshiped pagan idols and stars; he built pagan alters for idols and stars in the very courtyards of the temple; he sacrificed his sons to idols; he consulted diviners and mediums; he even set up an abominable pagan image at the temple that causes desolation just as the incoming antichrist will do. It was on that basis that God decided to have that first temple destroyed completely since Manasseh had desecrated it.

3. Prophet Jonah was the shadow figure (forerunner) of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament who undertook his prophetic ministry around 777 B.C. Prophet Jonah is hence associated with the number 777. He arose from the shadow and demise of Prophet Elisha. His preaching radiated such great power and authority that turned the city of Nineveh as the rising super power of that time up side down within 3 days only (read the book of Jonah). Jonah was the prophetic force behind the restoration of the lost territories of Israel in the reign of King Jeroboam II of Israel between 782 BC and 741 BC as written in II Kings 14:25. Jonah related with God more or less as his own father and God loved him more or less as His own son. He volunteered to die save occupants of the ship and was raised to life after three days just like Jesus Christ. Jesus compared himself with Jonah as his forerunner in the Old Testament as far as his earthly ministry, death and resurrection was concerned in Mathew 12; 38-41, Luke 11; 29-32. Jesus will also oversee the restoration of the lost territories of Israel just like prophet Jonah when he comes to rule as the king of kings and Lord of Lords. We can therefore correctly associate Jesus Christ with the number 777 just like Jonah as our commander-in-chief, Lord of the Sabbath and fountain of life.

The more we know where we came from the more we know where we are going. You are cordially invited to visit my face book home page for more information and messages. Feel free to share this truth with other brethren just as I received it free of charge from God.

Your brother in Christ

Eporu Ronald

Scientist & Minister of Bible Prophecy

BABerean2 · Jun 4, 2017

Copperhead said:
None of that you posted has anything to do with the Abrahamic Covenant. It all references spiritual conditions. Still, you confuse covenants and physical vs spiritual Israel. Justin Martyr was right and you posted it with my thanks! We shall inherit with the patriarchs and the prophets along with the just men who are descended from Jacob. The key there is "along with". We don't replace them and it is recognized in that statement that there are literal physical descedants according to the promises of God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Well done! You made my case for me! We are indeed grafted into the tree as the scripture says. Paul made it clear we do not replace the tree. Only some of the branches are cut off from the tree. We are not genetically tied to seed of Abraham, but we are spiritually tied to him because of faith. Paul makes it clear we are wild olive tree branches that are grafted into their Olive tree. And that is basically what your references are saying also, though they used vineyard in some places. The wild branches are not cast off forever. Physical descendants of Israel will indeed one day be saved by the same Messiah that saves gentiles who place their trust in Him.

I suggest you re-read the entire chapter of Romans 11, without any preconceptions. Just let the words themselves say what they do. Paul does an excellent job of putting this all in perspective for you better than I can. And it doesn't allow for some goofy stuff like there are no physical Jews or that the Gentiles are now the Jews or whatever type of wild ideas there are along those lines.

But be careful... Paul also makes it very clear we should not fall into pride that we have been grafted into their tree. We are not better than the branches, nor have we totally replaced them. They will one day be grafted back into their own tree.

I shouldn't be surprised in all this. Even before the NT scriptures were completely written, the church was in deep trouble. The letters to the 7 churches in The Revelation makes that pretty clear. And even in some of the issues we are discussing here.

Are you saying that the words of the Apostle Paul in Galatians 3:16 are not about the Abrahamic Covenant?

Do you agree with what Paul said in the verse?

Would there be an advantage to being a physical descendant of Israelites while not also being a spiritual descendant through Christ?

The confusion in Romans 9, 10, and 11 comes from the fact that there are two different uses of the word "Israel" in these chapters.
"Israel" can mean the nation.
"Israel" can also mean those that are faithful to God by accepting God's Son.
Which "Israel" is found in chapters 9, 10, and 11?
Both uses of the word "Israel" are found.

Let us start with Romans 9:6.

Rom 9:6　 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel (faithful Israelites who accept Christ) who are of Israel (the nation of Israel),　

In the verse above we find that all of those in the nation of Israel would not accept Jesus as their Messiah and become the descendants of God through faith in Christ, and become a part of spiritual Israel.

In Romans 9:8 Paul explains the difference between the children of the flesh and the children of the promise (Abrahamic Promise).

Rom 9:8　 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.　

In the verse above Paul says that fleshly Israel is not those who are God's children.
He says the promise comes through another method.
This passage is in agreement with Galatians 3:16-29.

Paul did not change his mind in Romans 11.
Romans 11 must be interpreted in agreement with Romans 9.
Paul cannot mean in Romans 9 that only part of the nation of Israel would be saved and then turn around in Romans 11 and say that all of the nation of Israel will be saved.

Romans 11 makes it clear that only those who accept Christ will be grafted back into the Olive Tree, which is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches.

The Greek word for "so" in Romans 11:26 is the Greek word "houto", which is the manner of their salvation. It is not the timing of their salvation.

Romans 11:26

(CJB)　 and that it is in this way that all Isra'el will be saved. As the Tanakh says, "Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer; he will turn away ungodliness from Ya`akov

(ESV)　 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

(Geneva)　 And so all Israel shalbe saued, as it is written, The deliuerer shall come out of Sion, and shall turne away the vngodlinesse from Iacob.

(GW)　 In this way Israel as a whole will be saved, as Scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion. He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

(LITV-TSP)　 and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

(KJV)　 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

(KJV+)　 AndG2532 soG3779 allG3956 IsraelG2474 shall be saved:G4982 asG2531 it is written,G1125 There shall comeG2240 out ofG1537 SionG4622 theG3588 Deliverer,G4506 andG2532 shall turn awayG654 ungodlinessG763 fromG575 Jacob:G2384

(NKJV)　 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;

(YLT)　 and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, 'There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob,

The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant spoken by Christ at the Last Supper.

Rom 11:27　 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."　
(In NKJV Uppercase text is from the OT.)

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　

The sins of all races of people were taken away at the Cross, based on Hebrews 10:16-18.

.

jgr · Jun 4, 2017

Copperhead said:
We shall inherit with the patriarchs and the prophets along with the just men who are descended from Jacob. The key there is "along with".

You missed the greater key: "just men".

Not any men or all men. Only "just men".

Because "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel."

BABerean2 · Jun 9, 2017

Christian Zionism denies that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 has been fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　

Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　

Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　

Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　

Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　

Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

Is "Christian Zionism" Biblical ?

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