Salvation?

Thedictator said:

Well, I agree to some degree to what you just said. I am unfamiliar with Universal justification what is that?

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The only essential and necessary elements of justification are the grace of God, the merit of Christ, and faith which accepts these in the promise of the Gospel.

We may put these essential ingredients of justification into a list, as follows:

The grace of God

The merit of Christ

The promise of the Gospel

Faith

The first three items constitute what was later called “objective justification.” The addition of faith completes the list, which thus defines justification in the full, normal biblical and ecclesiastical sense and usage. This ordinary sense of the word is labeled “subjective” (individual, personal) only in contexts requiring a distinction from the special usage of “objective” (general, universal) justification.

Taken from this essay where you'll find a more detailed explanation.

hedrick said:

Tell it to Jesus. Jesus and Paul were very clear that we would be judged based on our actions. It's not legalism because the basis wasn't how many violations of the law we did, but how we impacted others. Jesus also emphasizes motivation and intent, not checklists. Legalism is assessing people by counting violations of the law. It's also the kind of legal thinking that led to indulgences, time off from purgatory for gazing on relics, etc. Legalism counts sins without also looking at repentance and forgiveness.

I would maintain that the best summary of Paul and Jesus is that we are justified by faith and judged by works. God loves us just as we are. But he expects us to respond by obedience, and will hold us responsible. If we don't love others, we're rejecting God's love. You'll find that pretty obviously in Jesus' teaching, and I think in Paul as well. So "salvation" has to include both.

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Thanks Hedrick for being friendly and courtesy. I like our discussions. This two headed monster (Legalism/Antinomianism) has plagued the church for centuries. Even in Reformed, and Presbyterian circles. And which caused the Marrow Controversy in Scotland, regarding exactly this. People with Evangelical minds do have legalistic hearts. Where we attempt to rely on self efforts to either attain or maintain our Justification before God.

You said that, "Legalism is assessing people by counting violations of the law." I beg to differ. "Legalism is looking to something besides Jesus Christ in order to be acceptable and clean before God."

Legalism:
Legalism could be defined as any attempt to rely on self-effort to either attain or maintain our justification before God. In Paul's Epistle to the Galatians he warned them sternly about such false understandings of the gospel when he asked the offenders: "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (Gal.3:3). Legalism always seems to have one thing in common: it's theology denies that Christ is completely sufficient for salvation. That some additional element of self-effort, merit or faithfulness on our part is necessary to maintain a just standing before God. As an example, those who erroneously teach that a Christian can lose his or her salvation are, in essence, denying the sufficiency of Christ to save to the utmost. They believe their sin to be greater than Christ's grace. But we affirm that Christ's righteousness, which he counts toward us, is not only efficient for our salvation, but sufficient. His once for all sacrifice put away sin for all time in those He has united to Himself. His salvation also means that he not only saves at the beginning but preserves us to the end, sealing us in His perfect righteousness whose blood "reminds the covenant God" not to treat us as our sins deserve. Any attempt to add our covenant faithfulness as part of the price of redemption after regeneration is an "attempt to attain our goal by human effort" and thus a complete misapprehension of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We must, therefore, reject any and all attempts to maintain a judicial standing before God by any act on our part. Salvation is of the Lord.

ladodgers6 said:

Thanks Hedrick for being friendly and courtesy. I like our discussions. This two headed monster (Legalism/Antinomianism) has plagued the church for centuries. Even in Reformed, and Presbyterian circles. And which caused the Marrow Controversy in Scotland, regarding exactly this. People with Evangelical minds do have legalistic hearts. Where we attempt to rely on self efforts to either attain or maintain our Justification before God.

You said that, "Legalism is assessing people by counting violations of the law." I beg to differ. "Legalism is looking to something besides Jesus Christ in order to be acceptable and clean before God."

Legalism:
Legalism could be defined as any attempt to rely on self-effort to either attain or maintain our justification before God. In Paul's Epistle to the Galatians he warned them sternly about such false understandings of the gospel when he asked the offenders: "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (Gal.3:3). Legalism always seems to have one thing in common: it's theology denies that Christ is completely sufficient for salvation. That some additional element of self-effort, merit or faithfulness on our part is necessary to maintain a just standing before God. As an example, those who erroneously teach that a Christian can lose his or her salvation are, in essence, denying the sufficiency of Christ to save to the utmost. They believe their sin to be greater than Christ's grace. But we affirm that Christ's righteousness, which he counts toward us, is not only efficient for our salvation, but sufficient. His once for all sacrifice put away sin for all time in those He has united to Himself. His salvation also means that he not only saves at the beginning but preserves us to the end, sealing us in His perfect righteousness whose blood "reminds the covenant God" not to treat us as our sins deserve. Any attempt to add our covenant faithfulness as part of the price of redemption after regeneration is an "attempt to attain our goal by human effort" and thus a complete misapprehension of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We must, therefore, reject any and all attempts to maintain a judicial standing before God by any act on our part. Salvation is of the Lord.

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Very good and accurate post.
People simply don't understand the core foundation upon which the new covenant stands, and I doubt most on websites like this would be willing to understand it.

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17

It's strange, but if you ask most Christians what the core of the Christian faith is, they will reply: Christ died for our sins.( The second part)They won't mention the other part, the law being written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer. And yet, the majority, in reality have the first part,( the law being placed within them) but refuse to accept the second part( their sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more)

You see, you don't have to believe the Holy Spirit will write the law in your mind and place it on your heart, he will automatically do it at the point of conversion. But you are asked to believe the second part. Your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
As Christians have the law within them, all many can see is, it must be obeyed. Therefore if you don't obey it you are condemned. To them, if you accept righteousness apart from law you accept a licence to sin. But a truly born again Christian could not be antinomian, for though they have righteousness apart from law, the law placed within them means they will never be able to happily sin without conscience. That is just not possible.

Christ died to remove a law of righteousness, he did not die to annul the law!
You cannot happily, without conscience go against what is written in your mind and placed on your heart. But for those who refuse to see the spiritual truth of the NC, and read without true understanding of what they are reading, true grace, the true gospel message will always elude them

ladodgers6 said:

Thanks Hedrick for being friendly and courtesy. I like our discussions. This two headed monster (Legalism/Antinomianism) has plagued the church for centuries. Even in Reformed, and Presbyterian circles. And which caused the Marrow Controversy in Scotland, regarding exactly this. People with Evangelical minds do have legalistic hearts. Where we attempt to rely on self efforts to either attain or maintain our Justification before God.

You said that, "Legalism is assessing people by counting violations of the law." I beg to differ. "Legalism is looking to something besides Jesus Christ in order to be acceptable and clean before God."

Legalism:
Legalism could be defined as any attempt to rely on self-effort to either attain or maintain our justification before God. In Paul's Epistle to the Galatians he warned them sternly about such false understandings of the gospel when he asked the offenders: "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (Gal.3:3). Legalism always seems to have one thing in common: it's theology denies that Christ is completely sufficient for salvation. That some additional element of self-effort, merit or faithfulness on our part is necessary to maintain a just standing before God. As an example, those who erroneously teach that a Christian can lose his or her salvation are, in essence, denying the sufficiency of Christ to save to the utmost. They believe their sin to be greater than Christ's grace. But we affirm that Christ's righteousness, which he counts toward us, is not only efficient for our salvation, but sufficient. His once for all sacrifice put away sin for all time in those He has united to Himself. His salvation also means that he not only saves at the beginning but preserves us to the end, sealing us in His perfect righteousness whose blood "reminds the covenant God" not to treat us as our sins deserve. Any attempt to add our covenant faithfulness as part of the price of redemption after regeneration is an "attempt to attain our goal by human effort" and thus a complete misapprehension of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We must, therefore, reject any and all attempts to maintain a judicial standing before God by any act on our part. Salvation is of the Lord.

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It is true, evangelicals do often have legalistic hearts.
A woman in another website said:
Pentecostals and Catholics are the two denominations that find it hardest to accept biblical grace.

At first glance, that's quite a startling statement as they are supposed to be the two mainline denominations furthest apart. However, from my own personal experience I would say that is an accurate statement.
Where justification is concerned, those two denominations could pretty much walk hand in hand

ByTheSpirit said:

Yes I do. Baptism is not optional in the New Testament. It is a command. Do you believe you can go to heaven through disobedience?

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I am probably one of the most die hard people today who believes obedience is necessary as a part of the salvation process. I would say hating your brother and neglecting the poor in this life is a salvation issue (if one lived out their faith). However, there are sins that do not lead unto death. Granted, while John was talking about confessed sin within 1 John 5:16-17 (which is in relation to the "sin that does not lead unto death"), I believe it extends to minor faults or minor transgressions. I believe the "sin not unto death" extends to not being baptized in this life, too. How so?

Well, what about the thief on the cross? Was he baptized? No, of course not. Plus, Jesus said he would be in Paradise that very day (Luke 23:43).

Paul also says he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel, as well (1 Corinthians 1:17). So if baptism was a part of the gospel or if baptism was a part of salvation in some way, Paul would never say this.

John 1:12 says even those who believe on his name are born of Him.

Just like in Acts 22 where Paul received the Spirit before baptism, there were other believers who also already had the Spirit just like Peter before they were baptized, as well. Having the Holy Spirit means one is saved.

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
Acts 10:44--47 (New International Version).

Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism does not save for the putting away of the "filth of the flesh" (i.e. sin). We know that the words, "filth of the flesh" is talking about sin because the Bible defines these words as sin elsewhere.

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).


...

But does not Acts 22:16 teach baptismal salvation?

No.

...

Jason0047 said:

I am probably one of the most die hard people today who believes obedience is necessary as a part of the salvation process. I would say hating your brother and neglecting the poor in this life is a salvation issue (if one lived out their faith). However, there are sins that do not lead unto death. Granted, while John was talking about confessed sin within 1 John 5:16-17 (which is in relation to the "sin that does not lead unto death"), I believe it extends to minor faults or minor transgressions. I believe the "sin not unto death" extends to not being baptized in this life, too. How so?

Well, what about the thief on the cross? Was he baptized? No, of course not. Plus, Jesus said he would be in Paradise that very day (Luke 23:43).

Paul also says he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel, as well (1 Corinthians 1:17). So if baptism was a part of the gospel or if baptism was a part of salvation in some way, Paul would never say this.

John 1:12 says even those who believe on his name are born of Him.

Just like in Acts 22 where Paul received the Spirit before baptism, there were other believers who also already had the Spirit just like Peter before they were baptized, as well. Having the Holy Spirit means one is saved.

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
Acts 10:44--47 (New International Version).

Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism does not save for the putting away of the "filth of the flesh" (i.e. sin). We know that the words, "filth of the flesh" is talking about sin because the Bible defines these words as sin elsewhere.

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).


...

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I'm not here to argue baptism is essential or anything like that I just one to point out a questionable argument you make and that's with paul and the man on the cross. The man of the cross was next to Jesus straight up... Jesus can save anyone he wants to save he's Jesus. Also the whole baptism and Holy Spirit inside people stuff didn't really become a focus until the 6th dispensation of time which started with the first church. So before that you could be fine just accepting and living for Jesus while he walked the earth . But as we see in acts 10 for example with conioilous and his family things changed later. With paul it should be pointed out he mentioned Jesus baptism being fine and acceptable and seemed to emphasize that over looking to himself before he stated he came not to baptize. we see them he's simply saying he has come to preach and he's not going to baptize to add some extra stuff to his name. John and peter on the other hand came to baptize. Now personally I believe baptism is essential but that's not what I'm pushing here, simply questioning a few arguments you made to support your posistion

W2L said:

What must we do to be saved?

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"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". There is a LOT in that statement. The "Lord" part of it means that we believe that He is the Lord of Heaven and earth. The "Jesus" part is the historical Jesus as revealed in the New Testament--not some New Agey "Jesus" of our own making. and the Christ/Messiah is the one for whom Israel always longed and hoped.

stuart lawrence said:

Very good and accurate post.
People simply don't understand the core foundation upon which the new covenant stands, and I doubt most on websites like this would be willing to understand it.

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17

It's strange, but if you ask most Christians what the core of the Christian faith is, they will reply: Christ died for our sins.( The second part)They won't mention the other part, the law being written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer. And yet, the majority, in reality have the first part,( the law being placed within them) but refuse to accept the second part( their sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more)

You see, you don't have to believe the Holy Spirit will write the law in your mind and place it on your heart, he will automatically do it at the point of conversion. But you are asked to believe the second part. Your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
As Christians have the law within them, all many can see is, it must be obeyed. Therefore if you don't obey it you are condemned. To them, if you accept righteousness apart from law you accept a licence to sin. But a truly born again Christian could not be antinomian, for though they have righteousness apart from law, the law placed within them means they will never be able to happily sin without conscience. That is just not possible.

Christ died to remove a law of righteousness, he did not die to annul the law!
You cannot happily, without conscience go against what is written in your mind and placed on your heart. But for those who refuse to see the spiritual truth of the NC, and read without true understanding of what they are reading, true grace, the true gospel message will always elude them

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Thanks for your comments. Its that old mistake of turning the Gospel of Grace into a set of rules to be saved. Or simply turning the Gospel of Grace into Law. The Gospel of Grace is given "FREELY" to the ungodly. If not it is not by Grace that we are saved, but by a debt owed.

stuart lawrence said:

It is true, evangelicals do often have legalistic hearts.
A woman in another website said:
Pentecostals and Catholics are the two denominations that find it hardest to accept biblical grace.

At first glance, that's quite a startling statement as they are supposed to be the two mainline denominations furthest apart. However, from my own personal experience I would say that is an accurate statement.
Where justification is concerned, those two denominations could pretty much walk hand in hand

Click to expand...

I can relate, because sadly I was in both camps growing up. Not until I learned about the Doctrines of Grace that I finally heard the Gospel of Grace. Where God justifies the ungodly! That is the good news. That God has done for the ungodly in His Son, what His Holy Law demands! The Law says "DO" or else, and the Gospel says "DONE", here take it "FREELY".

But where we sometimes find ourselves is when we sin, we try to make it up through OUR obedience to the Law. To attempt to maintain OUR justification before God. Instead of trusting in another who was raised for OUR justification. Because Christ died for the sins of the believer too! People will think I am denying evangelical obedience, but that is simply not the case. The only remedy to Legalism & Antinomianism is God's Grace. But people think if you are a legalistic, that antinomianism is the remedy. Or is you are antinomian (anti-law), that legalism is the remedy. These two are not anti-theoretical to each other. Both are anti-theoretical to Grace!

"The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted." - Martin Luther

“Ignorance of the distinction between the Law and Gospel is one of the principle sources of all the abuses which corrupt and still corrupt Christianity.” –Theodore Beza.

"When God gives orders and tells us what will happen if we fail to obey those orders perfectly, that is in the category of what the reformers, following the biblical text, called law. When God promises freely, providing for us because of Christ's righteousness the status he demands of us, this is in the category of gospel. It is good news from start to finish. The Bible includes both, and the reformers were agreed that the Scriptures taught clearly that the law, whether Old or New Testament commands, was not eliminated for the believer (those from a Dispensational background may notice a difference here). Nevertheless, they insisted that nothing in this category of law could be a means of justification or acceptance before a holy God ... The law comes, not to reform the sinner nor to show him or her the "narrow way" to life, but to crush the sinner's hopes of escaping God's wrath through personal effort or even cooperation. All of our righteousness must come from someone else-someone who has fulfilled the law's demands. Only after we have been stripped of our "filthy rags" of righteousness (Isa. 64:6)- our fig leaves through which we try in vain to hide our guilt and shame-can we be clothed with Christ's righteousness. First comes the law to proclaim judgment and death, then the gospel to proclaim justification and life. One of the clearest presentations of this motif is found in Paul's Epistle to the Galatians. In the sixteenth century, the issue of law and grace was more clearly dealt with than at almost any other time since the apostles."

Modern Reformation Good News: The Gospel for Christians (May/June 2003)

ladodgers6 said:

Legalism could be defined as any attempt to rely on self-effort to either attain or maintain our justification before God. In Paul's Epistle to the Galatians he warned them sternly about such false understandings of the gospel when he asked the offenders: "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (Gal.3:3).

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It’s really hard to speak of salvation and take into account the whole NT. Paul says that justification is by faith. But as far as I know he doesn’t say that judgement is by faith. In 1 Cor 6:9 he says “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?.”

Jesus is clear that God loves us no matter what we do. But all of his examples of judgement are based on what a person does.

To do justice to the whole witness I say that God accepts everyone with faith, even when they sin, but that we are expected to show fruit and will be held accountable in the judgement for that. I.e. we are justified by faith but judged by actions.

In the Reformed scheme, faith has two parallel results: justification and sanctification. Salvation includes the whole thing, not just justification.

————

Gal 3:3 is talking about motivation, I think. Paul believes that Christians must be driven by the presence of the Holy Spirit, not by a fear of violating the Law. This is similar to Jesus’ teaching, which always emphasizes motivation. For him, we act because we love God and neighbor. In Mat 5, for example, he replaces the letter of the law with motives that in one way or another reflect concern for others. But he also expects his followers to obey. Claiming the right motivation without actually helping anyone (even giving someone thirsty a cup of water, per Mat 10:42) is not what he means by being part of the Kingdom.

Translating “flesh” by “human effort” is also an interpretation, and possibly a misleading one. Paul speaks of “works of the Law.” What he means by this is in the first place circumcision, though Rom 1 - 3 does suggest a broader view of the Law. But still, he’s speaking of a certain kind of human effort, one which is driven by a legal requirements whose original goal included distinguishing Israel from Gentiles — a separation that Paul believes Christ’s death negates.

hedrick said:

It’s really hard to speak of salvation and take into account the whole NT.

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Looking at the issue of what Salvation actually IS might prove useful...

The Eastern Church has always understood it to be Union with God, and this Union is given only BY God, because ONLY God has Himself to give... John wrote: This IS Life Eternal, to be KNOWING [in the ultimate Spiritual and Christian sense] the One True God and His Son, Jesus Christ. We teach that this Union is what consists the "Marriage of the Lamb", where Christ is the Bridegroom, and His Body is the Bride, where His Body is understood as the Church, the New Jerusalem, and especially those who have forsaken ALL for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.

This forsaking is willful and violent...

The opening of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a comandment given by John the Forerunner of Christ at the Jordan, commanding "Be ye repenting..." followed by the reason: "...for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" Good news indeed... Both Christ and Peter bore witness to this same command, and Christ gave an explanation:

"From the days of John the Baptist until now,
the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent are seizing it by force."

So that if you are one of the violent ones, you can, from the days of John the Baptist until NOW, be seizing it by force, which is why John baptized into repentence, which is a prolonged and violent action producing worthy fruits, wherein:
"IF anyone is willing after Me to be coming,
let him first deny himself,
then take up his cross,
and follow Me..."

The Christian Way is one of violent denial of self and of suffering, so that one may seize [the Greek word for seize transliterates as "harpoon"] the Kingdom of Heaven... Hence the Gospel of Jesus Christ IS the Gospel of repenting as a way of life to the end, being baptized into Christ. Romans 6:3
"As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

And having put on Christ, we then "run the race set before us..." in perseverence to the end, that we shall be saved... fwiw, it is arduous, walking the narrow and straited Way... In its highest form, it is described by Paul thus: 1 Cor 4:9-16

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last,
as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world,
and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak, but ye are strong;
ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour
we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted,
and have no certain dwellingplace;
And labour, working with our own hands:
being reviled, we bless;
being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we intreat:
we are made as the filth of the world,
and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
I write not these things to shame you,
but as my beloved sons I warn you.
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you
through the Gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you,
be ye followers of me.

How many of us can claim the last line?

It is not in any way a "Prosperity Gospel", yet it is the Gospel of Joy and Peace and Love in sufferings willingly endured for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven unto Union with God...

If we do not forsake the world, God will not give us the Kingdom of Heaven...

Why?

"... for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..."

Arsenios

W2L said:

What must we do to be saved?

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Any time I answer this question I normally go through the beginnings of what people need to be saved. But I'm going to take this one step further to show you how to maintain what you have acquired. Remember it is written.

Matthew 7:13-14New King James Version (NKJV)
The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because a]">[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

So what you must do to start is give your life to Jesus. Now this can be a confusing statement, so let's break this down.

The way to give your life to Jesus is to first admit that you ARE a SINNER. For a lot of people this is the hardest step, because no one every really want's to admit anything awful they have done. Next you need to pray and ask forgiveness for sins. I'll give you two lists shortly if you are not sure what your sins are.

When you pray go to your room and shut your door. You need not say a word. Close your eyes and fold your hands together and pray to God to forgive you of your sins in the name of Jesus Christ. God can hear all of your thoughts and Jesus sees all that is in your heart. So knowing that, don't try to hide anything. Freely confess.

When you confess you must repent. When you do this you are admitting that the sin you did is wrong and that you want to turn yourself away from that sin.

When you've repented you will receive the holy spirit and the holy spirit will take your burden from you and lighten the heaviest of hearts. Now that your burden is light, you must turn yourself completely from sin. This is the hardest part. Most people believe when they are saved that's it and that was all they had to do is admit they are a sinner. But the purpose of getting saved is to help free you from sin. If you continue to sin willfully it's the same as someone that gets pardoned from jail and commits the same crime again. You don't tell that person they have already been put into jail for a similar crime and they should be free forever. Instead you want them to pay for their crimes, especially if they are violent and hurtful to you personally.

Now no matter how good of a person you are, you are going to sin again. Do not let this trouble you, because all you have to do is confess all your new sins and they will be forgiven. But do not sin willfully.

This is the start of your journey, and if you don't know what all your sins could be; look at these two lists. The first is the Ten Commandments, and the second is the Sins of the Flesh.

The Ten Commandments

1. I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

3 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.


6 Thou shalt not kill.

7 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8 Thou shalt not steal.

9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass (Donkey), nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The Seventeen Sins of the Flesh are in Galatians 5:19-21

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

For a modern day translation of these sins as well as explanations for where they are in our daily lives, check out this link below.

https://www.sermoncentral.com/sermo...ghes-sr-sermon-on-sin-deceptive-92156?page=1#

Know The 17 Works Of The Flesh?

Here Wade M. Hughes explains in detail what the sins are and where you will find them today.

So by now if you are still reading this and I hope you are, you will probably be wandering why I didn't give you a shorter answer than this. Well the answer to that is Satan doesn't want you to know the full truth. He wants you to think that you can wipe the board clean once and then you can sin all you want. This way Satan gets another soul to burn with him at the second death. This is not what I want because I want you to live forever with God and Jesus in Heaven.

So where do you go from here. Well you can start by getting baptized. Regardless of what other people tell you, this will not be 100% needed for salvation. If for some reason you can't make it to a church to be baptized you are still okay. But if you have the option to be baptized and refuse it, that is the same as refusing the holy spirit. Remember that God is very forgiving, so as long as you are still alive you have the option to make the right decision and get baptized. It's a public declaration, and you are doing this to show your faith to the world. When you do, God will not hold your transgressions against you.

Now the entire process of this could take days with you, so do what you can to get here. Then there is one more thing that you need to remember. From here you must show a change and this scripture will tell you why.


James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without youra]">[a] works, and I will show you my faith by myb]">[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?c]">[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”d]">[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is why it is good to go to church and have people there help lead you in the way of the scriptures.

Read the scriptures yourself daily. Everything you have to know is in the scriptures. Anyone can translate the scriptures to their own lives. Keep yourself open to hearing out your church if they tell you your translation will lead you to sin.

I would not tell you these things if I had not done them myself. I am guilty of most of the sins on these lists, so don't believe anyone that says I'm better than you because I'm trying to show you a good way. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

I have given you strong scripture to help you through your journey. Test all things in your life through the scriptures, and test even the scriptures against other scriptures. In this you will find all truths. Find the strength you need from all the powerful words I have told you from the bible. Remember, if you still struggle, I will be there, and if you look you can always find someone in your life to help you with what you need.

ladodgers6 said:

I can relate, because sadly I was in both camps growing up. Not until I learned about the Doctrines of Grace that I finally heard the Gospel of Grace. Where God justifies the ungodly! That is the good news. That God has done for the ungodly in His Son, what His Holy Law demands! The Law says "DO" or else, and the Gospel says "DONE", here take it "FREELY".

But where we sometimes find ourselves is when we sin, we try to make it up through OUR obedience to the Law. To attempt to maintain OUR justification before God. Instead of trusting in another who was raised for OUR justification. Because Christ died for the sins of the believer too! People will think I am denying evangelical obedience, but that is simply not the case. The only remedy to Legalism & Antinomianism is God's Grace. But people think if you are a legalistic, that antinomianism is the remedy. Or is you are antinomian (anti-law), that legalism is the remedy. These two are not anti-theoretical to each other. Both are anti-theoretical to Grace!

"The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted." - Martin Luther

“Ignorance of the distinction between the Law and Gospel is one of the principle sources of all the abuses which corrupt and still corrupt Christianity.” –Theodore Beza.

"When God gives orders and tells us what will happen if we fail to obey those orders perfectly, that is in the category of what the reformers, following the biblical text, called law. When God promises freely, providing for us because of Christ's righteousness the status he demands of us, this is in the category of gospel. It is good news from start to finish. The Bible includes both, and the reformers were agreed that the Scriptures taught clearly that the law, whether Old or New Testament commands, was not eliminated for the believer (those from a Dispensational background may notice a difference here). Nevertheless, they insisted that nothing in this category of law could be a means of justification or acceptance before a holy God ... The law comes, not to reform the sinner nor to show him or her the "narrow way" to life, but to crush the sinner's hopes of escaping God's wrath through personal effort or even cooperation. All of our righteousness must come from someone else-someone who has fulfilled the law's demands. Only after we have been stripped of our "filthy rags" of righteousness (Isa. 64:6)- our fig leaves through which we try in vain to hide our guilt and shame-can we be clothed with Christ's righteousness. First comes the law to proclaim judgment and death, then the gospel to proclaim justification and life. One of the clearest presentations of this motif is found in Paul's Epistle to the Galatians. In the sixteenth century, the issue of law and grace was more clearly dealt with than at almost any other time since the apostles."

Modern Reformation Good News: The Gospel for Christians (May/June 2003)

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Thank you for the above.
Two things.
You don't need to quote others, your own thoughts are quite adequate, for you well understand this subject.
When I was much younger, I used to be drawn to Galatians mainly concerning this subject. But in my view, Romans is the book that best illustrates the truth. Many say it is Pauls masterpiece. And in my view, ch7 is the most revealing chapter of all.
Many believe when Paul speaks of dying to the law, he is referring to Torah, but not the Ten Commandments. Romans shows us such thinking is to be in error

W2L said:

What must we do to be saved?

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LOVE
In 1 John chapter 4 verse 8 and 16
It says God is love.

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

I'm not here to argue baptism is essential or anything like that I just one to point out a questionable argument you make and that's with paul and the man on the cross. The man of the cross was next to Jesus straight up... Jesus can save anyone he wants to save he's Jesus.

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It is more than that. While the thief on the cross did not live out his faith, the salvation of the thief still shows us that ultimately we are saved by Jesus Christ and not by works. Baptism is a work. Baptism is a ceremony. It is a picture of what is happening on the inside. Granted, I believe certain works do play a part in the salvation process later on in a believer's life. But I believe these are the fruits or evidences that Jesus lives in a person who has lived out their faith. Baptism is merely an answer having an already clean conscience before God. Baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin). The thief on the cross is not the sole reason why Baptismal Salvation is unbiblical. It is merely one piece of the puzzle showing us that a person can be saved without doing a specific ceremony. The New Covenant is not based on ceremonies but it is based on Christ and His love.

You said:

Also the whole baptism and Holy Spirit inside people stuff didn't really become a focus until the 6th dispensation of time which started with the first church. So before that you could be fine just accepting and living for Jesus while he walked the earth . But as we see in acts 10 for example with conioilous and his family things changed later.

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Why would salvation change later after Christ's ministry? That makes no sense. Yes, people did not have a complete and full picture of salvation like Christ's death and resurrection until after it happened, but to say that God's plan of salvation changed after the cross on some radical level after the church was formed is just not believable. It sounds like many other religions that seeks to add something extra to what God has done for us with Christ's death and resurrection. Again, we see evidence in Scripture of men of God receiving the Holy Spirit and yet they were not baptized yet.

You said:

With paul it should be pointed out he mentioned Jesus baptism being fine and acceptable and seemed to emphasize that over looking to himself before he stated he came not to baptize. we see them he's simply saying he has come to preach and he's not going to baptize to add some extra stuff to his name. John and peter on the other hand came to baptize. Now personally I believe baptism is essential but that's not what I'm pushing here, simply questioning a few arguments you made to support your posistion

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It doesn't make any sense for Paul to say that he came not to baptize if it was for salvation. Paul would never say such a thing if baptism was for salvation. Paul would never mislead someone away from the path of salvation. So I do not see the logic of your point here.


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stuart lawrence said:

Very good and accurate post.
People simply don't understand the core foundation upon which the new covenant stands, and I doubt most on websites like this would be willing to understand it.

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17

It's strange, but if you ask most Christians what the core of the Christian faith is, they will reply: Christ died for our sins.( The second part)They won't mention the other part, the law being written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer. And yet, the majority, in reality have the first part,( the law being placed within them) but refuse to accept the second part( their sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more)

You see, you don't have to believe the Holy Spirit will write the law in your mind and place it on your heart, he will automatically do it at the point of conversion. But you are asked to believe the second part. Your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
As Christians have the law within them, all many can see is, it must be obeyed. Therefore if you don't obey it you are condemned. To them, if you accept righteousness apart from law you accept a licence to sin. But a truly born again Christian could not be antinomian, for though they have righteousness apart from law, the law placed within them means they will never be able to happily sin without conscience. That is just not possible.

Christ died to remove a law of righteousness, he did not die to annul the law!
You cannot happily, without conscience go against what is written in your mind and placed on your heart. But for those who refuse to see the spiritual truth of the NC, and read without true understanding of what they are reading, true grace, the true gospel message will always elude them

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You mentioned two parts of the covenant, I believe there are four parts (Hebrews 8:10-12).
I will write put my laws...
I will be their God, and they shall be my people...
They will know Me..
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.

To be God's people is to be under God's rule (I will be their God, like the OT times when God ruled Israel, the kingdom of God). Jesus said that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he does the will of the Father, so the second term is doing the will of the Father.

By doing the will of the Father, works that God has preordained (Ephesians 2:9-10), that we get to know God, the third term. Faith is required, not the faith that is required to believe the gospel, but faith that Peter had when he walked on water - the faith in the word of God, Jesus said come Peter! The faith that Mary and Martha had when Jesus told them to roll away the stone at the mouth of Lazarus' tomb. Jesus then called out: Lazarus come out! In both cases, the faith in Christ preceded both of Jesus' actions. From faith to faith - the just must live by faith (Rom 1:17).

Jason0047 said:

It is more than that. While the thief on the cross did not live out his faith, the salvation of the thief still shows us that ultimately we are saved by Jesus Christ and not by works. Baptism is a work. Baptism is a ceremony. It is a picture of what is happening on the inside. Granted, I believe certain works do play a part in the salvation process later on in a believer's life. But I believe these are the fruits or evidences that Jesus lives in a person who has lived out their faith. Baptism is merely an answer having an already clean conscience before God. Baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin). The thief on the cross is not the sole reason why Baptismal Salvation is unbiblical. It is merely one piece of the puzzle showing us that a person can be saved without doing a specific ceremony. The New Covenant is not based on ceremonies but it is based on Christ and His love.



Why would salvation change later after Christ's ministry? That makes no sense. Yes, people did not have a complete and full picture of salvation like Christ's death and resurrection until after it happened, but to say that God's plan of salvation changed after the cross on some radical level after the church was formed is just not believable. It sounds like many other religions that seeks to add something extra to what God has done for us with Christ's death and resurrection. Again, we see evidence in Scripture of men of God receiving the Holy Spirit and yet they were not baptized yet.



It doesn't make any sense for Paul to say that he came not to baptize if it was for salvation. Paul would never say such a thing if baptism was for salvation. Paul would never mislead someone away from the path of salvation. So I do not see the logic of your point here.


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the situation with the thief is circumstancial, the thief happened to be dying next to the son of god in a vital moment of history. If we denied Christ all our lives and was dying it's not the same because we are post pentocost 6th period of time. Also if there are verses such as john 3:5, acts 2:38, acts 8:12-17, acts 19 etc. and many others that stress baptism then how can anyone say it's just ceremonial??? Why talk so much about celebrity matters?? And why did Jesus and the great John the Baptist push it so much?

LadyCrosstalk said:

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". There is a LOT in that statement. The "Lord" part of it means that we believe that He is the Lord of Heaven and earth. The "Jesus" part is the historical Jesus as revealed in the New Testament--not some New Agey "Jesus" of our own making. and the Christ/Messiah is the one for whom Israel always longed and hoped.

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Believe is another word that is mis-understood. When Jesus told Mary and Martha to roll away the stone in front of Lazarus' tomb, the ladies put on their thinking cap, hey, Lazarus died four days ago. Jesus said to them if they believe they will see the glory of God (John 11). They believed and roll away the stone, and Jesus called Lazarus out.

hedrick said:

It’s really hard to speak of salvation and take into account the whole NT. Paul says that justification is by faith. But as far as I know he doesn’t say that judgement is by faith. In 1 Cor 6:9 he says “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?.”

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Hey Hedrick what's up? Hope all is well. I have dealt with this thinking before. It seems that you are suggesting a 'Final Justification based on works'. Because we are talking about Christians being judge for doing or wrongdoing. I hope we got that clear. There is no Hope, Assurance, or even Peace of conscience in this. Because we are going to struggle with sin as believers until we die. But the good news is that Christ also died for the sins of believers.



1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

So there is NOW no condemnation, because of who Christ is, and what He done for us! This is our assurance, peace of conscience, because we know and trust that Christ has done everything proclaimed in the Gospel of Grace.

In Romans 5, the Last Adam fulfills the Covenant of Works, which the first Adam broke through One Act of Disobedience. Which bought death & condemnation on all mankind. But by One Act of Obedience, Christ merited our Justification & Life. I know you do not believe in the imputation of Adam's sin & guilt. Do you believe in the imputation of Christ's righteousness through Faith Alone? Even though we need to be united to Christ to be saved. To place a 'final justification' on believers for Salvation by doings/self-efforts/works. Then the Gospel of Grace is distorted by OUR maintaining our juridical standing on what we do before God. Instead of Christ being our justification, sanctification and redemption.

30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Please explain this passage to me? Where is our boasting if not by works?

Jesus is clear that God loves us no matter what we do. But all of his examples of judgement are based on what a person does.

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Before I reply to this comment. Do you believe in the distinction between Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone?

To do justice to the whole witness I say that God accepts everyone with faith, even when they sin, but that we are expected to show fruit and will be held accountable in the judgement for that. I.e. we are justified by faith but judged by actions.

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Sorry this sounds a lot like D.G. Dunn theology. Forgive my ignorance, but if one is ALREADY justified in Christ by Faith. How can there still be judgement against him/her? If Christ propitiated the judgement of God for His people. How can there still be judgement? Because the opposite of condemnation (first Adam) is Justification (second Adam).

In the Reformed scheme, faith has two parallel results: justification and sanctification. Salvation includes the whole thing, not just justification.

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In Reformed theology Sanctification flows from our Justification in Christ. Not the other way around. Justification does not flow from sanctification. This is a common mistake people make. Yes, believers produce fruit. But these fruits flow from our Justification through Faith Alone in our surety. But if we do not understand how a sinner is justified before a Holy God. You will get a legalistic approach to salvation, because God's Grace is not understood, or think when we sin, that Christ's blood is not enough to suffice.
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Gal 3:3 is talking about motivation, I think. Paul believes that Christians must be driven by the presence of the Holy Spirit, not by a fear of violating the Law. This is similar to Jesus’ teaching, which always emphasizes motivation. For him, we act because we love God and neighbor. In Mat 5, for example, he replaces the letter of the law with motives that in one way or another reflect concern for others. But he also expects his followers to obey. Claiming the right motivation without actually helping anyone (even giving someone thirsty a cup of water, per Mat 10:42) is not what he means by being part of the Kingdom.

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Galatians 3 is about Christ and Him crucified and received through Faith Alone! Paul says its either by Faith or by works. But it cannot be both. I love Galatians, its a treasure trove of the Gospel of Grace.


15To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offspring,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Translating “flesh” by “human effort” is also an interpretation, and possibly a misleading one. Paul speaks of “works of the Law.” What he means by this is in the first place circumcision, though Rom 1 - 3 does suggest a broader view of the Law. But still, he’s speaking of a certain kind of human effort, one which is driven by a legal requirements whose original goal included distinguishing Israel from Gentiles — a separation that Paul believes Christ’s death negates.

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This last part is a bit all over the place. In Reformed teaching works of Law has three aspects to it. First the ceremonial Law, Civil Law, Moral Law (Moses). I will comment more tomorrow its a bit late. But Romans 1-3 Paul is preaching Law here. I will provide the details, I promise.