Salvation?

ladodgers6 said:

How is this not legalism?

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Tell it to Jesus. Jesus and Paul were very clear that we would be judged based on our actions. It's not legalism because the basis wasn't how many violations of the law we did, but how we impacted others. Jesus also emphasizes motivation and intent, not checklists. Legalism is assessing people by counting violations of the law. It's also the kind of legal thinking that led to indulgences, time off from purgatory for gazing on relics, etc. Legalism counts sins without also looking at repentance and forgiveness.

I would maintain that the best summary of Paul and Jesus is that we are justified by faith and judged by works. God loves us just as we are. But he expects us to respond by obedience, and will hold us responsible. If we don't love others, we're rejecting God's love. You'll find that pretty obviously in Jesus' teaching, and I think in Paul as well. So "salvation" has to include both.

Tangible said:

And besides, baptism is not a law that must be obeyed or a requirement that must be met. Baptism is a means of grace through which God graciously gives his gifts. Not a have-to, it's a get-to. Not Law, but Gospel.

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That part I agree with. That was the point I was trying to make: that it's NOT a "have to" for salvation.

JohnKing67 said:

That part I agree with. That was the point I was trying to make: that it's NOT a "have to" for salvation.

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Very few Christian groups actually believe that baptism, as a law, is a requirement for salvation. That's a frequent strawman trotted out by credobaptists interested in arguing against scriptural paedobaptism.

Larry Wilgus said:

Believing on the Lord grants salvation. Water baptism is not a qualification. When we believe right, we'll live right.

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That is not what the Bible teaches. I will go with what the bible says.

Tangible said:

Very few Christian groups actually believe that baptism, as a law, is a requirement for salvation. That's a frequent strawman trotted out by credobaptists interested in arguing against scriptural paedobaptism.

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Sorry you have it wrong. Not a Law, but requirement like having to Believe in Jesus Christ, unless you believe in Universal Salvation then there is no requirements.

stuart lawrence said:

Indeed, if baptism is needed to be saved, hardly anyone got saved as they heard Pauls message. He preached to them and left them in an unsaved state.
Shame on him!!!

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No he did not, there was someone else there to do the baptizing.

I should also note that salvation as used by Jesus is not minimal criteria for making it into heaven. Someone is saved when they change from Jesus' enemy to his follower. And that means doing what he taught.

It seems clear that some of Jesus' teaching about judgement involves varying rewards. Some way well also be punishment short of hell. To be honest, it's not very explicit, which is the reason for all of those arguments here and in unorthodox theology. I suspect it's intentional that Jesus doesn't give us specifics that let us calculate the bare minimum we have to do to escape hell. That's not what Jesus means by salvation, and one wonders whether someone with that goal could be saved anyway.

What if someone claims they received a "life changing born again experience" from saying a simple prayer for salvation (no water baptism involved). Would they not be saved? I personally know of people who claimed this happened to them.

JohnKing67 said:

What if someone claims they received a "life changing born again experience" from saying a simple prayer for salvation (no water baptism involved). Would they not be saved? I personally know of people who claimed this happened to them.

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There isn't an order in which baptism and the indewlling of the Holy Spirit with yeah an experience comes. Some get the Holy Spirit before even being baptized others like myself after.

W2L said:

What must we do to be saved?

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Very Simple.
To be saved, you must retain the Holy Spirit, until Death. Salvation is completed at Resurrection.

Matthew 10:22
Matthew 24:13
Mark 13:13

What must we do to receive the Holy Spirit?

1. While You Hear the Gospel
Romans 10:14-17
Galatians 3:2
2. God Judges Your Heart
Romans 4:12
3. And He Chooses to Give You His Holy Spirit
Acts 10:1-6+30-44

What Are the Requirements?

1. Love Truth Enough To
2nd Thessalonians 9:12
2. Admit You Are A Criminal
Jeremiah 3:11-13
3. And Ask For Forgiveness
1st John 1:8-9
4. By Yahoshua's Sacrifice
1st Peter 2:21-25

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

There isn't an order in which baptism and the indewlling of the Holy Spirit with yeah an experience comes. Some get the Holy Spirit before even being baptized others like myself after.

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So for those who got an experience before being baptized. What would happen if they decided not to get baptized? If they have already been changed by God's power then how can they be unchanged?

JohnKing67 said:

So for those who got an experience before being baptized. What would happen if they decided not to get baptized? If they have already been changed by God's power then how can they be unchanged?

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Many don't know this and I didn't either for a time until I studied more. But baptism isn't just some celebritory thing, I kind of got this hunch when I noticed how Jesus emphasized it so much and even mandates it when he says "verily verily I say unto thee accept ye be born of water and spirit ye cannot enter the kingdom of god". Not to mention the first church we strive to be like emphasized it like crazy too. Baptism in water is done to remove sins we are born with thanks to Adam. while the Holy Spirit helps to stop adding on and commiting sins and inequities.

Thedictator said:

Sorry you have it wrong. Not a Law, but requirement like having to Believe in Jesus Christ, unless you believe in Universal Salvation then there is no requirements.

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I see passage after passage after passage in scripture that describes what God accomplishes for us in Holy Baptism. I'm not saying that a Christian shouldn't be baptized. If a person comes to faith in Christ through the proclamation of the Gospel, but refuses to receive all the promised gifts God gives in Baptism, there would be reason to give pastoral care and re-educate them on the benefits God gives in baptism.

Universal justification, but not universal salvation. Sadly, many will never stop refusing God's gift of faith in Jesus Christ.

Tangible said:

I see passage after passage after passage in scripture that describes what God accomplishes for us in Holy Baptism. I'm not saying that a Christian shouldn't be baptized. If a person comes to faith in Christ through the proclamation of the Gospel, but refuses to receive all the promised gifts God gives in Baptism, there would be reason to give pastoral care and re-educate them on the benefits God gives in baptism.

Universal justification, but not universal salvation. Sadly, many will never stop refusing God's gift of faith in Jesus Christ.

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Well, I agree to some degree to what you just said. I am unfamiliar with Universal justification what is that?

JohnKing67 said:

So for those who got an experience before being baptized. What would happen if they decided not to get baptized? If they have already been changed by God's power then how can they be unchanged?

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Having an emotional experience to a religious event is not being Born Again. Hindus, Muslims, and Mormons all have religious experiences that they say is the power of God or the Holy Spirit. What matters is what the Word of God says not an experience.

SpiritRehab said:

Very Simple.
To be saved, you must retain the Holy Spirit, until Death. Salvation is completed at Resurrection.

Matthew 10:22
Matthew 24:13
Mark 13:13

What must we do to receive the Holy Spirit?

1. While You Hear the Gospel
Romans 10:14-17
Galatians 3:2
2. God Judges Your Heart
Romans 4:12
3. And He Chooses to Give You His Holy Spirit
Acts 10:1-6+30-44

What Are the Requirements?

1. Love Truth Enough To
2nd Thessalonians 9:12
2. Admit You Are A Criminal
Jeremiah 3:11-13
3. And Ask For Forgiveness
1st John 1:8-9
4. By Yahoshua's Sacrifice
1st Peter 2:21-25

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You left one out my friend, Act 2:38 How one receives the Holy Spirit.

Wow, so many wrong answers.

The answer is Romans 10:9.

GirdYourLoins said:

Wow, so many wrong answers.

The answer is Romans 10:9.

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Well Mark 16:16 completes what Romans 10:9 starts.

W2L said:

What must we do to be saved?

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We cannot DO anything to save ourselves. We cannot be good enough to earn salvation. However...
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29)
It is all about faith in Christ.

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:

We cannot DO anything to save ourselves. We cannot be good enough to earn salvation. However...
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29)
It is all about faith in Christ.

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You just contradicted yourself, which is it, we do nothing, or we do something which is believe.