Are Children Natural-Born Sinners?

jimmyjimmy · Jun 2, 2017

Tangible said:
"Because all sinned" when Adam sinned. That's the point St Paul is making here. You're not a sinner because you sin. You sin because you are a sinner.

If we are inheritors of Adam's flesh, we are inheritors of his guilt of sin. As shown earlier, God even goes so far as to impute to us Adam's sinfulness so that he may have mercy on all, for Jesus only comes to save sinners.

That's the absolutely biblical truth, but not very popular.

SpiritRehab · Jun 2, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Are children born sinful? Are they natural-born sinners?

They aren't.
Sin simply means Crime.
Sinner simply means Criminal.
Crime is breaking the Law.
Children are exempt from the Law, until they become aware of good & evil.

The Messiah Yahoshua said, "If you were blind, you should have no sin, but now you say, 'We see' therefore your sin remains.

The Apostle Paul said, "For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died."

Children are doing what comes natural.
They don't steal. They take.
They don't avenge. They punish.
They don't lie. They hide the truth.
It is for survival on a world full of sinners.

We who know Good & Evil,
are guilty of stealing, avenging, lying, etc, because we know that we can rely on God to help us survive, while we live according to His way, on a world full of cheating law breakers.

jimmyjimmy · Jun 2, 2017

wayfarersoul1978 said:
I think we're all capable of sin as children. But we need to know right from wrong from the start. This is not clear to infant, they are pretty much primal at this stage. I agree with The Orthodox over augsine church ncept myself. For example I think Mary choice never to sin, rather than having special grace per se, but I could be wrong.

So, if we teach a child well, from infancy, he/she will never sin. Thanks for the explanation.

Are there any people you know who are sins, like you claim Mary was? I am making a film about sinless people, and I have been frustrated because I can't find anyone as the subject for my project.

jimmyjimmy · Jun 2, 2017

SpiritRehab said:
They aren't.
Sin simply means Crime.
Sinner simply means Criminal.
Crime is breaking the Law.
Children are exempt from the Law, until they become aware of good & evil.

The Messiah Yahoshua said, "If you were blind, you should have no sin, but now you say, 'We see' therefore your sin remains.

The Apostle Paul said, "For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died."

Children are doing what comes natural.
They don't steal. They take.
They don't avenge. They punish.
They don't lie. They hide the truth.
It is for survival on a world full of sinners.

We who know Good & Evil,
are guilty of stealing, avenging, lying, etc, because we know that we can rely on God to help us survive, while we live according to His way, on a world full of cheating law breakers.

So, it's possible that these sinless little darlings could be sinless adults, right? Are you one of them?

Kutte · Jun 2, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
How do children instinctive know how to sin? We have to teach them to share, tell the truth, obey parents, but we never need to teach them to lie or steal, etc.

Are children born sinful? Are they natural-born sinners?

No, of course not.

LadyCrosstalk · Jun 2, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
How do children instinctive know how to sin? We have to teach them to share, tell the truth, obey parents, but we never need to teach them to lie or steal, etc.

Are children born sinful? Are they natural-born sinners?

It is this world which is tainted with sin and under a curse. I believe that they are born sinless and innocent but that it doesn't take them long to figure out how to sin. However, it is wise to remember that Jesus told His disciples: “There will always be temptations to sin, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting! It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin. " (Luke 17:1-2) Sobering words.

JohnKing67 · Jun 2, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
I am making a film about sinless people, and I have been frustrated because I can't find anyone as the subject for my project.

Ha, funny comment.

JRichard68 · Jun 2, 2017

FenderTL5 said:
Raphael Jauregui said,

It should be noted that the later developed, western, Augustinian view of original sin is NOT an Orthodox view.
The Orthodox view is that of 'Ancestral Sin' which eliminates the necessity for the even later doctrines concerning children (being quibbled about here) and the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Thanks for the link. I'll give it a read. I try to distinguish between "orthodox" and "Orthodox" in my posts so they might be distinguished a bit. I understand, for some, they aren't. So if I mention orthodox (small 'o') it's not in reference to those churches that claim historic, Apostolic authority, as I wouldn't assume to speak for them.

Vicomte13 · Jun 2, 2017

staffsgt7 said:
Yes, children sin - they are about themselves. Their world is them and mommy - eventually daddy and then any siblings they have. And it is about themselves until they learn that there are others. And if they don't get what they want, when they want it - they will pull a tantrum.

Our definitions of sin are so fundamentally different that, in truth, we are of different religions, not merely different denominations.

In my religion, except for Original Sin (which is a state of affairs, not an act, and which is washed away by baptism), to sin requires a decision.

In your religion, to be cleansed by God in Baptism requires a decision, but sin is automatic.

There can be no meeting of the minds on this - our gods are different - yours holds people morally accountable for things they cannot help and do not know. Mine would call that unjust and evil.

The different concepts of sin are irreconcilable, and are a microcosm of the difference between the Catholic and Protestant religions.

Vicomte13 · Jun 2, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
So, it's possible that these sinless little darlings could be sinless adults, right? Are you one of them?

Yet it IS possible. But it's unlikely. The Devil is very powerful and very seductive.

JohnKing67 · Jun 2, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
yours holds people morally accountable for things they cannot help and do not know

An infant dying and going to hell would just be inhumane, IMO. I think God takes certain things that people don't know and cannot help into account. Otherwise how could he claim to be a "just God".

Hank77 · Jun 2, 2017

Halbhh said:
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Ah.... the circumcision of the heart. This is regeneration.

Halbhh said:
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Halbhh said:
Repent, be baptized, and then (subsequently) receive the gift.

Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.
Others who Paul met had been regenerated, repented and put their faith in the Christ by believing the Gospel, but had not even heard there was a Holy Spirit and had only been baptized into John's baptism.

Halbhh said:
But yes we know the spirit pulls us towards repentance. But isn't "regeneration" upon this repentance and baptism? It's not prior.

What is regeneration but the circumcision of the heart?

Hank77 · Jun 2, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
Yet it IS possible. But it's unlikely. The Devil is very powerful and very seductive.

We can know that it is not possible for an adult to have not sinned. We know this because God's word says that Jesus was the only perfect, without sin/unblemished, man. There is only one Savior/Redeemer.

FenderTL5 · Jun 2, 2017

JRichard68 said:
Thanks for the link. I'll give it a read. I try to distinguish between "orthodox" and "Orthodox" in my posts so they might be distinguished a bit. I understand, for some, they aren't. So if I mention orthodox (small 'o') it's not in reference to those churches that claim historic, Apostolic authority, as I wouldn't assume to speak for them.

No worries. I understood the "o" vs. "O" as you used it.
It was just a clarification for anyone who didn't see it, plus I used it as an opprtunity to make a comment on our position.
If/when you read the link, there's some additional reading material suggested at the end. I highly recommend reading the section by Bishop Kallistos Ware called 'The Consequences of the Fall (link)'. It's extracted from his book, The Orthodox Way.

Tangible · Jun 2, 2017

Hank77 said:
What has this got to do with a baby being able to repent? Are you saying that somehow God regenerates them and they repent?

Did you look at the verses I referenced? God grants repentance. Like faith, repentance is a gift that God gives. And if God is doing the giving, he can give his gifts to whomever he wants.

Tangible · Jun 2, 2017

Hank77 said:
If one does not recognize their own sin and transgressions against God they won't see their need for a Savior.

But I ask you this, are babies, children, and some mentally disabled (children in the bodies of adults) capable of recognizing what is sin and transgression against God? Are babies capable of knowing that they need a Savior?

That's one of the huge problems with decision theology. When a person who cannot make a rational decision is encountered, it stops working. Then you have to come up with a work-around.

If your soteriology won't work for everyone of any description, then it doesn't work.

LadyCrosstalk · Jun 2, 2017

Hank77 said:
We can know that it is not possible for an adult to have not sinned. We know this because God's word says that Jesus was the only perfect, without sin/unblemished, man. There is only one Savior/Redeemer.

In the Millennial Kingdom, (under King Jesus) depicted in the writings of Isaiah, sin will be quite a bit more rare (Isaiah tells us that "only sinners will die at 100") but it obviously will be present. Satan will be bound during most of the 1000 years of the Millennial Kingdom (but he will be released at the end to go out to "deceive the nations once again") and sin will grow rapidly. Ultimately, Satan, the Antichrist, the False Prophet, those not under the Blood of the Lamb, as well as Hades and death itself will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

TaylorSexton · Jun 2, 2017

holyrokker said:
Rom 3:23 - yes all have sinned. That's not the debate. The problem is the claim that all are born sinful.

Ps 51:5 - It's convenient that you chose a paraphrase of the verse that supports your preferred theory.

That's fine. The passage still does not advocate the false doctrine of "original sin".

A careful reading of the entire Psalm, and an understanding of Hebrew poetry will remove the possibility of the "born sinful" notion.

Notice the personal pronouns used:

blot out my transgressions
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
cleanse me from my sin
For I know my transgressions
my sin is ever before me
Against you, you only, have I sinned

It is obvious that David is accepting full responsibility for his actions. He is not attempting to pass his sin off on a pre-existing condidtion.

Also notice the wording of verse 5

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is not a doctrinal statement of inherited sin. It doesn't even imply that David himself inherited a sin nature.

David is utilizing "hyperbole" - a standard poetic practice of exaggerating a statement. The purpose is to express intense emotions, or to make a strong empression upon the reader, and should not be taken literally.
A common American hybole is "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse".

David again uses this technique in verse 7:

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Surely David isn't creating a doctrine of cleansing from sin in this statement.

You've learned well from Finney!

jimmyjimmy · Jun 2, 2017

LadyCrosstalk said:
It is this world which is tainted with sin and under a curse. I believe that they are born sinless and innocent but that it doesn't take them long to figure out how to sin.

Surely some of them remained sinless. Did one?

LadyCrosstalk · Jun 2, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Surely some of them remained sinless. Did one?

Enoch? Noah? Jacob/Israel's son, Joseph?

Are Children Natural-Born Sinners?

Are Children Born with a Sin Nature?

Absolutely not. They are God's angels.

Of Course they are. Adam and Eve are their great, great, great, great,. . . grandparents

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