Are Children Natural-Born Sinners?

I could not vote for either of the 2 choices.

I think we are born with a connection to God, natural, like breathing even, so natural. We don't have any abstractions, ideas, thoughts about it, except perhaps a kind of without-words feeling(?) akin to 'you are with me' or 'you are'.

The world impinges on us, often rather intensely.

And more, role models above us, in the world, they show us stuff of mixed character.

We take it in.

But just like Adam and Eve, we would each and all fall, in time, eventually, thinking to 'become just like God', to replace Him. That path leads downhill. Of course, a wonderful thing is that He gave us a spirit that is able to suddenly turn and change direction.

I don't mind if someone needs it put into theological language instead, and wants it to be 'original sin' that we are stained by. Ok. That's the same meaning, in different wording, to me, as best I can understand. We are like Adam and Eve, susceptible. This stuff works on us -->"Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

TaylorSexton said:

I think the distinction between "original" and "actual" sin is necessary to properly interpret this verse. The OP, if I read it correctly, is asking not whether we are born sinning (verb, action), but whether we are born sinners (noun, state of being). Biblically speaking, and especially pulling from Jesus' words in the Gospels, one is not a sinner because he sins, but he sins because he is a sinner. The state of being a sinner (original sin) is both logically and temporally prior to sinning (actual sins). It seems to me that, since Paul here says "they...had done [action] nothing either good or bad," he is referring not to original sin, but actual sin. This thread is about the former, not the latter. Am I correct in my thinking regarding the particular interest of the OP, jimmyjimmy?

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I think that the original post ought to have made a distinction between original and actual sins. One is born inclined to sin it appears from the scriptures and one can actually sin when one is able to do good or bad. An infant is not a sinner if being a sinner means to have actually sinned. An infant is implicated in the first sin of his/her first ancestors, Eve and Adam. In Reformed circles the idea is sometimes called federal headship in that it encompasses all the progeny of Adam & Eve in the acts of Adam & Eve. Paul uses a similar line of argument when he explains how Levi paid homage to Melchizedek in the act of homage performed by Abraham his forefather. Paul reasoned that Levi was in the loins (so to speak) of his forefather and hence was also paying homage as Abraham did so. (Hebrews 7:1-10)

GingerBeer said:

I think that the original post ought to have made a distinction between original and actual sins.

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Of course, that probably would have been helpful; I certainly grant that. However, this is where determined precision in theological thought and vocabulary comes in handy. As I said, the OP asked whether we are born sinners (state of being, implying original sin), not sinning (actions, implying actual sins). The distinction is implied in the wording.

TaylorSexton said:

Of course, that probably would have been helpful; I certainly grant that. However, this is where determined precision in theological thought and vocabulary comes in handy. As I said, the OP asked whether we are born sinners (state of being, implying original sin), not sinning (actions, implying actual sins). The distinction is implied in the wording.

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Perhaps the distinction is implied in the word "sinners" in contradistinction from "sinning". Let's see how it develops.

TaylorSexton said:

because Scripture says that at one point we don't know the difference between good and evil we therefore cannot still practice sin. That appears to me to be a leap in logic.

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And I don't think I said that children do not sin, I said that God does not hold them accountable until they can know the difference and choose to choose good. That is what I see in the scriptures that have been quoted about children and knowledge of good and evil and the knowledge to chose good over evil.

Hank77 said:

And I don't think I said that children do not sin, I said that God does not hold them accountable until they can know the difference and choose to choose good. That is what I see in the scriptures that have been quoted about children and knowledge of good and evil and the knowledge to chose good over evil.

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Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

jimmyjimmy said:

How do children instinctive know how to sin? We have to teach them to share, tell the truth, obey parents, but we never need to teach them to lie or steal, etc.

Are children born sinful? Are they Natural born sinners?

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Even though your picture very likely shows a justified reaction of the little child to an injustice, like an adult being selfish and not letting the child share some object, like a diamond ring or whatever it is they wanted to share, equally, with you....

Even though that's likely a picture of justified anger. I'm being serious. The adult did a wrong, on some level, minimum. For instance, give them a new toy, like a nice metal spoon, to play with, already!

Still....we are born...I think, neutral, in this way.

But, that means that sin is inevitable, then. It's only a matter of time. Even inside the Garden of Eden, with both God and the serpent, both, there, with us.

For one it might be 14 years until they succumb. For another 28 years.

"Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

But, sooner or later....we have to learn the lesson.

Teach the child and it will learn. I was taught the ten commandments as a child. I was also taught other things like my sister blamed me for her sins and I had to take her punishment. The punishment was usually mild and I usually avoided her. I learned who to keep company with the hard way sometimes. I learned to help out in the garden and was paid sometimes. I learned housechores. I learned beefarming and stockmarket at a young age. I learned to trace bears in the forest. I learned when a bear is hunting too. I learned if I come home with a less than excellent grade my father will be dissatisfied and start teaching me the subject at home so I will try my best. I learned not to sing at home. At least not gospel, opera or any high notes or anything with strong lungcapacity. I was a stubborn child and my parents use to tease me for being prudent. I really had no wish to show off bodyparts. Besides there was always so much fighting going on in school so I really felt boys were more of an enemy. Horses and stables were a good place to hang out. As a child I learned that my best friend a dangerous horse was slaughtered one day. That horse was tender to me, always kind and treated me kindly but bit and kicked some others. I taught her jumping and gallopping and it was only 3 years old, a young beaten whipped trotting mare.

Halbhh said:

Even though your picture very likely shows a justified reaction of the little child to an injustice, like an adult being selfish and not letting the child share some object, like a diamond ring or whatever it is they wanted to share, equally, with you....

Even though that's likely a picture of justified anger. I'm being serious. The adult did a wrong, on some level, minimum. For instance, give them a new toy, like a nice metal spoon, to play with, already!

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Only in the 21st century do we see the novel notion that parental prerogative with their own possessions and children is somehow an "injustice." No wonder we have such an issue with God's sovereignty.

Sinful nature or not, I strongly believe all children go to heaven.

Matthew 18
18 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

Matthew 19
13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and prayed for them. But the disciples rebuked them.

14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

TaylorSexton said:

Only in the 21st century do we see the novel notion that parental prerogative with their own possessions and children is somehow an "injustice." No wonder we have such an issue with God's sovereignty.

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I hope you read past just the one paragraph?

I didn't give anything to play with that I thought would break or get lost, and that left about 100 things at least, just stuff, spoons, toys, plastic recorder, etc., etc. It's not a give them anything or give them nothing. Too many parents seem that think a child should be content with just nothing -- nothing to do, nobody to interact with, and nothing to examine, more often than the 12 month old can handle. I just didn't write that clear enough though perhaps.

Adstar said:

the age of innocence..

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I can't find this in my bible. Can you show me where you find it? Preferably in the justification passages of the New Testament?

Hall said:

Sinful nature or not, I strongly believe all children go to heaven.

Matthew 18
18 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

Matthew 19
13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and prayed for them. But the disciples rebuked them.

14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

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Yes, and this is so crucial, not merely tolerance, because of the exact wording. It's not only to serve, though that indeed is part. There is more:

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."

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See that word there -- "never"..... It's not optional, it's not merely a good.

Grace won't save a person from disobeying this one.

What is it about a little child that is so right? Well, yes, they are naturally humble. And there is more. They look to their parent for guidance. They are naturally open hearted, ready to love. They are 'child like' in the good ways.

Want to see true non-judgmental love? Smile at a child of 2 or 3 yrs old who has not learned to mistrust people. You will receive love.

It's plainly a requirement because of the word "never". Become like one of these little children, or you don't enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Tangible said:

I can't find this in my bible. Can you show me where you find it? Preferably in the justification passages of the New Testament?

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Great question. I don't have an entire set of prepared quotes and such, but there is the idea that something is not a sin if the person is unaware it is wrong.

Here's what I think of, but there may be more than this:

35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."


Here, being unaware leaves a person innocent. But becoming aware puts them into accountability.

Another, making a connection between knowledge and accountability:

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

This is probably some doctrinal thing that has been written up in a fancy way with lots more, but I have this merely from reading through.

I remember when I learned how open water could feel hard like a stone. I jumped into the water with feet first from about 9 metres height. Somehow I really slammed my feet into the water and it hurt and I thought never again. So I have been ok with 6 metres.

Evil is not born, it is taught.

I don't think they are "born" sinners but when they are born their little minds are open to Satan's spiritual influence and he's standing there waiting for them to take their first breath so He can fill them with feelings of fear, anger, resentment, jealousy etc. So we need to take them and love them and pray for their guardian angel to protect their minds while we raise them according to God's love. They have to be taught to resist the devil just like we do.