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Good point, but there are people on this forum who make me look normal, Marvin. Need I say more?
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Free or not?
- Thread starter Reformationist
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Good point, but there are people on this forum who make me look normal, Marvin. Need I say more?
EmSw
White Horse Rider
Well, it helps if we can find these things in the Bible. But, most, if not all, is speculation. And since God 'unchangeably ordained' whatsoever comes to pass', He 'unchangeably ordained' you to sin. Shame on God for doing that.
Since God ordained you to sin, how does that not offer violence to your will, if you are desiring not to sin? And just because natural man puts in writing that, 'as thereby neither is God the author of sin', doesn't make it a truth.
Many Reformed on here claim to have a new nature, but it seems God ordains them to live according to the old nature. What's up with that?
God must be laughing with the angels in heaven when He says, 'If you love me, keep My commandments', and then ordains and brings about the means by which man cannot possibly keep His commandments. He must really laugh when He tells man to 'cast away all your transgressions to make yourself a new heart and new spirit', and then ordains and provides the means by which man cannot possibly do that.
Have you really thought about what your doctrine teaches, and its consequences?
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
Yes - a great deal.
Since you have thought about the consequences of your belief a great deal, does it bother you that God commands you to keep His commandments, and then predestines and ordains that you can't possibly do that?
Does it bother you that God has ordained and brought about the means for you to keep sinning and live according to your flesh and keep you a servant to sin?
Does it bother you that God may have ordained you to eternal damnation? And that everything you know about God is to bring about a greater damnation for you?
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The reason EmSw is struggling with the idea of God ordaining something is because she/he incorrectly equates that with God causing it to happen apart from, or against, the will of the creation. Take sinning, for example, since she/he brought it up. EmSw can't fathom a God that is able to sovereignly govern His creation such that His plan unfolds exactly as He would have it unfold, including the sins of man, yet no violence was done to the will of the creation. Sure, one could easily point her/him to the OT story of Joseph and the way God sovereignly brought about every event leading up Joseph's faithful pronouncement, "What you meant for evil, God meant for good..." Each act, including the freely willed sinfulness of each player in that drama, was all part of God's plan, yet God did not force any of them to act the way they did. In the end, those who recognize the sovereign government of God take comfort in knowing that even the wrath of man glorifies God and nothing, not even the death of a sparrow, happens apart from His sovereign will.Yes - a great deal.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
Not one bit. God may have predestined and brought about the means for you to lie to us. No one knows if God predestined you to be saved or not. You don't even know. You own belief leaves you in limbo concerning your soul and whether God predestined you to salvation or damnation.
Oh yeah, you can tell us you are saved, but if God predestined you to lie, your own words mean nothing.
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Lol! And here's the irony. Those of your ilk see a person being chosen of God as the byproduct of a choice they make. In other words, you're not part of the exclusive club until you do something to gain membership. Those who understand the Scriptures as I do recognize all people without exception as the elect of God until they show they aren't, and they do that by dying without faith. You see, in my community, you're in until you prove you're out. In yours, well, to be part of that elite club you have to gain membership by doing the right thing.
So don't worry about me EmSw. God's got me. I'm sure of it. No limbo here. You, on the other, make sure you've said and done all the right things, right? Otherwise, it's the eternal sauna for you.
Either way, I know that I will end up exactly where God intended me to end up. The God I worship never fails. Yours, yeah, he roams around gnashing his teeth in frustration and sadness at all those who rejected him. Some pitiful god you got there.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
All people are the elect of God? Are you sure? So people can lose election, which in effect, is losing salvation.
A little boasting on the side is good for you, huh (Those who understand the Scriptures as I do)?
Let's see, you say "you're in until you prove you're out". So, everybody is saved until they prove they aren't. Too bad, they can lose their salvation. Are you sure this is your belief?
Ephesians 2:12
remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
So, even they are in, they are separated from Christ and have no hope without God in the world.
I'm pretty sure Judas thought just as you do.
How do you know where God intends you to be? Do you have some magical power to read God's mind? That's pretty brash to think you know God has chosen you.
So, if He has predestined you to eternal torment, God will not fail to carry that out. Remember, if this is the case, you can do nothing about it, but walk around and spew out words which have no meaning. And that combined with not keeping His commandments (passivity) in order to have the truth in you, your chances aren't looking good.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
The same goes for you also, jimmy. You aren't assured of your election, thus not assured of salvation. Oh yeah, you can walk around and claim all kind of things from God, but if He has predestined you to eternal torment (something you will never know on this earth), nothing you can do will change that.
So, go tell Reformationist, predestination has both of you in limbo.
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The misinformation in your post is almost impressive. I'll try to wade through it.
No. Obviously not. What I actually said was (you'd realize this if you weren't bent set on trying to find fault in my posts), people who believe as I believe assume everyone we come in contact is the elect of God until they prove that they aren't. You see, we don't start off assuming that someone needs to do something that we can verify, e.g., say a prayer, accept Jesus into their heart, be baptized, etc., before we assume that God will eventually redeem them. It's not that we don't see any of those actions on the part of the person as appropriate for someone who has been redeemed. We just assume that someone will, at some point, reflect through their actions that God has redeemed them, even if they aren't showing evidence of that currently. If, on the other hand, they die in their unbelief, obviously they weren't one of the elect of God.
No. Of course not. You see, when you grossly mischaracterize someone else's view and then run with that misunderstanding, and then start asking them nonsensical questions based on that misunderstanding and expecting them to defend your inaccurate depiction of their views...that's what's called a strawman. You have an entire field of them in these discussions.
Only someone as sophomoric as you would see that as boasting. Here...let me help. "Those who understand the Scriptures as I do" is a qualifying statement, meant to distinguish between those who believe Scripture is properly interpreted to mean the things that I believe as opposed to those who believe Scripture is properly interpreted in a different manner. To imply what you accuse me of, I would have said something like, "Those who understand the Scriptures as well as I do..." I understand, to someone like you, it may seem like a minor change but it actually makes a world of difference to the meaning of the sentence.
I'm absolutely sure your lack of understanding does not represent my beliefs. I understand that you think you know everything but, in truth, you don't. Guess what? Neither do I. Neither does any other person. So, my point with "you're in until you prove that you're out" is a reflection of my acknowledgement of my finitude. Being that my ability to know a person's heart is restricted to what my limited senses can tell me, and that imperfectly, I start with the presumption that someone is in the "I am/will be saved by God" club. You may sit at the mean girls table and say things like "you can't sit with us" until someone does whatever little salvation tap dance you require to consider them worthy of inclusion in your little "We're the chosen of God because we accepted Jesus into our hearts" club but, that's not how I operate.
Actually that is an excellent example of my position. Thank you for sharing it. So, as the context reveals, Gentiles were at one time separated from God, strangers to the covenants of promise. But, as is seen in the unfolding of God's merciful plan, God ALWAYS intended to bring them into the fold. So, seeing Gentiles as members of the club wasn't about whether they converted to Judaism. It was about recognizing that God had a plan to graft them into the vine. You see, you're like the Pharisee. You look at someone and say, "Hmmmm....I wonder if they're part of God's family. Well, if they haven't prayed the prayer and accepted Jesus into their hearts, they're not." And that is how you approach them. Because, for you, it's about what you do. It's about you plan for yourself. That's how you measure inclusion. It's not about God's plan. It's not about recognizing that God works all things after the counsel of His own will.
Lol! Well, we can't all be like the wise and powerful EmSw, ruler of the land of make believe. A lot of people believe they know their eternal destiny, like you for instance. You think you are destined to Heaven because you've met the criteria. Unfortunately, that leaves the back door open to abandon all that. I, on the other hand, recognize that my salvation was purchased for me by the blood of the Lamb, applied to me by the power of God through the Holy Spirit, and held in Heaven for me by the power of God.
I believe God intends me to ultimately be in Heaven. This is evidenced by my faith in Him. Faith is a gift, and it is only given to those whom God saves, and He saves everyone to whom He gives it. Now, if my faith is not true, then that means that God intends me to be in that other place, hanging out with you probably. Either way, I'll end up where He intends. You see, unlike you, I recognize God's sovereignty. That means that if He decrees that I go to hell, that's exactly where I'll end up. It's about His plan and purpose EmSw. I know, I know. That thought is so foreign to your way of thinking that you struggle with it. You see, I recognize there is a God and that I'm not Him. I don't decide the destiny of the creation. The Creator does. I get that you think it is the will of the creation that facilitates or thwarts the will of the Creator. I understand you glory in your own wisdom and worthiness. It's just not biblical.
Well, actually, it's not so brash as you would think. You see, God has chosen...everyone. Yes everyone EmSw, even you. I know, I know. Such a concept is a shock to the system of a person like you. People who think their place in Heaven is appropriated by themselves because they made the right choices struggle with understanding that, even though their choices were the result of (not the basis for) God predestining them to glory, they made the right choices because God gave them the nature to make those choices. And, in fact, the very reason He gave them that nature was so that they would make the choices they made. Here's the thing though...follow along....I'll try to keep it simple for you, some He has chosen to be objects of His mercy, and some he has chosen to be objects of His wrath. In both cases, it is God who chooses. See how that works? God is God and, well, EmSw is...not.
That's correct.
I have no clue what this means. I don't understand the passivity comment but, again, I'm not worried. I know that if I inherit eternal life, I will have done so because God was merciful and reckoned me righteous because of Christ's vicarious atonement. If, instead, he condemns me, I will know I earned it and God is glorified in that. Either way, God is glorified.
You, well, I wish you the best of luck. I know you're counting on your own steadfastness to secure your place in Heaven and, well, your chances aren't looking good.
No. Obviously not. What I actually said was (you'd realize this if you weren't bent set on trying to find fault in my posts), people who believe as I believe assume everyone we come in contact is the elect of God until they prove that they aren't. You see, we don't start off assuming that someone needs to do something that we can verify, e.g., say a prayer, accept Jesus into their heart, be baptized, etc., before we assume that God will eventually redeem them. It's not that we don't see any of those actions on the part of the person as appropriate for someone who has been redeemed. We just assume that someone will, at some point, reflect through their actions that God has redeemed them, even if they aren't showing evidence of that currently. If, on the other hand, they die in their unbelief, obviously they weren't one of the elect of God.
No. Of course not. You see, when you grossly mischaracterize someone else's view and then run with that misunderstanding, and then start asking them nonsensical questions based on that misunderstanding and expecting them to defend your inaccurate depiction of their views...that's what's called a strawman. You have an entire field of them in these discussions.
Only someone as sophomoric as you would see that as boasting. Here...let me help. "Those who understand the Scriptures as I do" is a qualifying statement, meant to distinguish between those who believe Scripture is properly interpreted to mean the things that I believe as opposed to those who believe Scripture is properly interpreted in a different manner. To imply what you accuse me of, I would have said something like, "Those who understand the Scriptures as well as I do..." I understand, to someone like you, it may seem like a minor change but it actually makes a world of difference to the meaning of the sentence.
I'm absolutely sure your lack of understanding does not represent my beliefs. I understand that you think you know everything but, in truth, you don't. Guess what? Neither do I. Neither does any other person. So, my point with "you're in until you prove that you're out" is a reflection of my acknowledgement of my finitude. Being that my ability to know a person's heart is restricted to what my limited senses can tell me, and that imperfectly, I start with the presumption that someone is in the "I am/will be saved by God" club. You may sit at the mean girls table and say things like "you can't sit with us" until someone does whatever little salvation tap dance you require to consider them worthy of inclusion in your little "We're the chosen of God because we accepted Jesus into our hearts" club but, that's not how I operate.
Actually that is an excellent example of my position. Thank you for sharing it. So, as the context reveals, Gentiles were at one time separated from God, strangers to the covenants of promise. But, as is seen in the unfolding of God's merciful plan, God ALWAYS intended to bring them into the fold. So, seeing Gentiles as members of the club wasn't about whether they converted to Judaism. It was about recognizing that God had a plan to graft them into the vine. You see, you're like the Pharisee. You look at someone and say, "Hmmmm....I wonder if they're part of God's family. Well, if they haven't prayed the prayer and accepted Jesus into their hearts, they're not." And that is how you approach them. Because, for you, it's about what you do. It's about you plan for yourself. That's how you measure inclusion. It's not about God's plan. It's not about recognizing that God works all things after the counsel of His own will.
Lol! Well, we can't all be like the wise and powerful EmSw, ruler of the land of make believe. A lot of people believe they know their eternal destiny, like you for instance. You think you are destined to Heaven because you've met the criteria. Unfortunately, that leaves the back door open to abandon all that. I, on the other hand, recognize that my salvation was purchased for me by the blood of the Lamb, applied to me by the power of God through the Holy Spirit, and held in Heaven for me by the power of God.
I believe God intends me to ultimately be in Heaven. This is evidenced by my faith in Him. Faith is a gift, and it is only given to those whom God saves, and He saves everyone to whom He gives it. Now, if my faith is not true, then that means that God intends me to be in that other place, hanging out with you probably. Either way, I'll end up where He intends. You see, unlike you, I recognize God's sovereignty. That means that if He decrees that I go to hell, that's exactly where I'll end up. It's about His plan and purpose EmSw. I know, I know. That thought is so foreign to your way of thinking that you struggle with it. You see, I recognize there is a God and that I'm not Him. I don't decide the destiny of the creation. The Creator does. I get that you think it is the will of the creation that facilitates or thwarts the will of the Creator. I understand you glory in your own wisdom and worthiness. It's just not biblical.
Well, actually, it's not so brash as you would think. You see, God has chosen...everyone. Yes everyone EmSw, even you. I know, I know. Such a concept is a shock to the system of a person like you. People who think their place in Heaven is appropriated by themselves because they made the right choices struggle with understanding that, even though their choices were the result of (not the basis for) God predestining them to glory, they made the right choices because God gave them the nature to make those choices. And, in fact, the very reason He gave them that nature was so that they would make the choices they made. Here's the thing though...follow along....I'll try to keep it simple for you, some He has chosen to be objects of His mercy, and some he has chosen to be objects of His wrath. In both cases, it is God who chooses. See how that works? God is God and, well, EmSw is...not.
That's correct.
I have no clue what this means. I don't understand the passivity comment but, again, I'm not worried. I know that if I inherit eternal life, I will have done so because God was merciful and reckoned me righteous because of Christ's vicarious atonement. If, instead, he condemns me, I will know I earned it and God is glorified in that. Either way, God is glorified.
You, well, I wish you the best of luck. I know you're counting on your own steadfastness to secure your place in Heaven and, well, your chances aren't looking good.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
I'll help you wade through it.
Actually, here is what you said - "Those who understand the Scriptures as I do recognize all people without exception as the elect of God until they show they aren't, and they do that by dying without faith."
Now you are adding 'assume' to the mix. Your first statement 'recognizes ALL people without exception as the elect of God'. That's okay, I understand why you had to go back and insert assume. You saw your mistake. Your first statement says All are elect until they die.
Another thing, Jesus said we can 'verify' the elect by their fruit. Also, they must keep His commandments, or, they do not know Him, nor abide in Him, nor do they love Him. That would be evidence they are elect.
Get over your strawmen, and answer the questions.
To which you act like the Pharisee in the parable from Luke 18:9-14.
You have implied that 'others who don't understand scripture as you do', and the qualifying word is 'I'.
Since you admit you do not know everything, why do you expect me to believe what you aren't sure of? With predestination, you must start with presumptions, for you do not know what God has predestined. That's why you can only presume you're the elect.
The 'mean girl's table' is exactly where you are sitting now. Until you keep His commandments, you do not know Him, and the truth is not in you. Now you can tell me you know Him and have the truth in you, but John gave us the test to see if that is really true. Do you pass or fail?
So, how can you assume anyone is the elect of God if they are separated from God? Are your beliefs all based upon assumptions?
Why isn't faith about what you do? Are you not to live your life according to your faith? Isn't it God's plan that you are to be holy and blameless?
Yet, you keep leaving out 'keeping His commandments'. Why? If you want to enter life, keep the commandments. Is this the land of make believe to you? Why do you not want to believe Jesus?
Show me your faith without works; it can't be done. I'll show you my faith by my works. Does this have any meaning to you? Without works, faith is only a matter of head knowledge.
Here's the will of the Father - to enter life, keep the commandments. Now, will you by-pass His will and do it your own way?
I believe God chooses everybody, so it's not a shock. Everyone's place in Heaven is appropriated by obeying God's plan and will. And this obedience comes from desiring, choosing, and doing what is right in the eyes of God.
You had better hope some are not chosen to be objects of His mercy and others objects of His wrath. All are chosen to be objects of His mercy, with stipulations.
2 Chronicles 6:14
and he said: “Lord God of Israel, there is no God in heaven or on earth like You, who keep Your covenant and mercy with Your servants who walk before You with all their hearts.
Psalm 25:10
All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth, to such as keep His covenant and His testimonies.
Psalm 86:5
For You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive, and abundant in mercy to all those who call upon You.
Isaiah 30:18
Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you; and therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for Him.
Now, do you believe you must walk before Him with all your heart? Do you believe all paths of God are mercy and truth to those who keep His covenant and testimonies? Do you believe those who call upon Him are given abundant mercy?
That's funny, you are the one to bring up being passive, and now you act you don't know what the word means.
Why do you not believe Jesus on inheriting eternal life? Jesus said nothing of reckoning you righteous, nor anything about His vicarious atonement in relation to eternal life.
Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Mark 10:17
Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
Luke 10:25
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Luke 18:18
Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Now, please read what Jesus said about inheriting eternal life, and you will have the answer which leads to life. I have given you verses so you go read them yourself in context. That way, you don't have to 'assume' anything.
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Scripture does not say: “Adam and Eve were made perfect like Christ is perfect”, but does say; they were made “very good”, so what did they lack and why were they not just clones of Christ?
Were Adam and Eve parented (programmed) to adulthood by the most wonderful parent (God) or were they left to mature on their own?
Adam and Eve were going to sin with the “nature” they were given, so what did they lack that God could not provide which could keep them from sinning?
Is man’s earthly objective to: “never ever sin” (we all fail at this) or is there another greater objective?
Animals do not “sin” and a wonderful dog can be very loving and protective, so why did God not just make us like wonderful dogs?
Does sin have purpose in helping humans fulfill their earthly objective?
Tell me this: “Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to always obey God (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your just humble accepting God’s charity (where you are today)?
Adam and Eve gained “knowledge” with eating the fruit, so is knowledge bad in and of itself and does this knowledge alone change the nature of man?
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To clarify the previous definition given above, libertarians do not necessarily hold that all actions are free in the libertarian sense. Rather they hold that we perform at least some actions that are free and that a free action is one which is such that at the time one performed it, he had the power to perform it and the power not to perform it, and no combination of prior causes determined either that he perform it or that he does not perform it.
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Thought experiment:
Bob is generally a 'good person' by 21st century American evangelical Christian standards. A neuroscientist kidnaps Bob and performs an operation on Bob's brain that transforms and forces Bob's character from being altruistic to egotistic and malevolent—to the point he will indefinitely become a murderer. Bob ends up killing an innocent person. Is Bob morally responsible for killing this innocent person and did he kill the person freely (using your standards for free will given above and not the libertarian standards)? Furthermore, to what point, if any, should the scientist be held morally accountable for the death of the innocent person?
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Whatever God does is firstly an act of the Creator. He may do what He wants to do. That's not the full answer, but if you don't accept that, they rest won't help.
Do you agree that the Potter can do what He wishes with His creation?
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Before I entertain any of your questions, first answer my questions purposed for the given thought experiment if you are going to respond to my post, please.
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