Will there be a second chance for salvation after the Rapture?

Quasar92 · May 31, 2017

jgr said:
Classic dispensational psychotic bilge. The integrity of the original Greek Scriptural manuscripts has never been compromised. God Himself has seen to that.

And the ultimate authorities to confirm and affirm what those Scriptures contain are the Greek believers themselves. And they speak with one voice.

In a choice between any Greek believer who gives me the meaning of a Greek word in Greek Scripture, and any non-Greek disbeliever who gives me a diametrically opposite meaning for the exact same Greek word; it doesn't take rocket science to predict which one I'll believe, every time.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy".

Greek's best interpreters are Greek.

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

Your dogmatic trash talk in #239 was addressed previously in my posts 237 and 238 explaining the different meanings of "apostasia," that rebukes your continued attempt to alter the original meaning of what Paul was telling the Thessalonians. That the Church will DEPART in verse 3, and be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY in verse 7, in perfect harmony with the theme of the passage in verse one, "THE COMING OF THE LORD AND OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM, a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where the Church is CAUGHT UP TOGETHER in the clouds of the sky, to meet the Lord in the air. All of which is in perfect harmony.

But you are obsessed with trying to make 2 Thess.2:3 say what was originally written by Paul, that the Day of the Lord will not come, until the DEPARTURE...to say what it was altered to in 1611 A.D. to say [documented in 237 and 238], fall away, or go into apostasy, which DOES NOT harmonize with the rest of the Scripture at all. You have no argument, so you might as well give it up!

Quasar92

Quasar92 · May 31, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Once again, what you posted does not agree with the words of Christ found below.

Joh 10:16　 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.　

Mat 16:18　 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　

Mat 28:18　 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.　

Mat 28:19　 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:　

Mat 28:20　 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.　

.....................................................................................

Who is "the house of Israel", based on Acts 2:36?

Mat 15:24　 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　

On the Day of Pentecost about 3,000 of "the house of Israel" accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and became the first members of the Church revealed by Christ in Matthew chapter 16.

Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"　

Act 2:38　 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.　

Act 2:39　 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."　

Act 2:40　 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."　

Act 2:41　 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
　

Christ did command that the Gospel be taken "first" to His own people.
However, the "Great Commission" to the Church is found at the end of Matthew's Gospel.

All false doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.
Modern Dispensational Theology is one of many examples.

.

What I post are the Scriptures as I previously posted. nSo your remark that they don't agree with them is false! Review it to see for yourself!

There isn't a single quote in your above post that alters a single thing I previously posted. All of it is addressed to Israel!

>>>What are you attempting to teach in the above contribution? As I have previously posted, Jesus minisrey in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and 10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, according to Jn.7:39, at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, recorded in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. It has nothing whatever to do with the rapture of the Church as documented in the following:<<<

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

BABerean2 · May 31, 2017

Quasar92 said:
What I post are the Scriptures as I previously posted. nSo your remark that they don't agree with them is false! Review it to see for yourself!

There isn't a single quote in your above post that alters a single thing I previously posted. All of it is addressed to Israel!

>>>What are you attempting to teach in the above contribution? As I have previously posted, Jesus minisrey in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and 10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, according to Jn.7:39, at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, recorded in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. It has nothing whatever to do with the rapture of the Church as documented in the following:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

Your error is ignoring that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13. The New Covenant is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

When the Church began on the Day of Pentecost is was made up of the Israelites that Peter addressed in Acts 2:36.

Gentiles were not grafted into the Israelite Church until after Stephen reviewed the whole history of Israel and was then stoned. The man who would be selected by God to mainly take the Gospel to the Gentiles was standing by holding the coats of those who murdered Stephen.

The Church as a whole has never been a Gentile Church.

.

parousia70 · May 31, 2017

Quasar92 said:
FYI, post 160 is one of mine, Try again.

My Bad, #161

There is nothing in this thread that in one post or another, your 13 points have been addressed, if you are following this thread.

No, you have failed to address any of the scriptures I have cited.

I'll re post them for your edification.
"The Church" in Acts 2:47 had a grand total of 0 Gentiles in it. It is a JEWISH entity.
It was (and still is) the Nazarene sect of Judaism, the faithful remnant who followed Israel's Messiah. The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ).

However, as you demonstrate from your postings, you have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).
YOU TEACH THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE APOSTLES TEACH.

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Just like with Moses in the Wilderness, Believing Faithful Israel continues, while Wicked, Apostate Israel is destroyed.

And Just Like Old Covenant Israel, Gentiles who believe and convert to New Covenant Israel are welcomed and received as full fledged citizens.

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

There is no such thing as dividing Israel up into two or more entities.

Then address the scriptures above that teach the opposite of your claim.

Israel is Israel, and they are non-brlievers in Jesus as their Messiah.

Rather, The continuation of Israel is ALWAYS counted through the faithful, and the non believers are "CUT OFF FROM THE PEOPLE" and have "NO INHERITANCE"
This is what scripture teaches.

FYI, I am a qualified teacher of the Bible, I earned through two Bible Colleges plus studies under Dwight Pentecost. And where may I ask, did you earn your qualifications to teach the Bible?

I'm an amateur theology buff, with 30 years of Bible study under my belt. I'm not a teacher nor have I claimed to be one.
But when I see a teacher such as you teaching the opposite of what the Apostles believed and taught, I'm going to side with the apostles teaching over yours, and I'm going to encourage everyone I can to do the same.

jgr · May 31, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Your dogmatic trash talk in #239 was addressed previously in my posts 237 and 238 explaining the different meanings of "apostasia," that rebukes your continued attempt to alter the original meaning of what Paul was telling the Thessalonians. That the Church will DEPART in verse 3, and be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY in verse 7, in perfect harmony with the theme of the passage in verse one, "THE COMING OF THE LORD AND OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM, a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where the Church is CAUGHT UP TOGETHER in the clouds of the sky, to meet the Lord in the air. All of which is in perfect harmony.

But you are obsessed with trying to make 2 Thess.2:3 say what was originally written by Paul, that the Day of the Lord will not come, until the DEPARTURE...to say what it was altered to in 1611 A.D. to say [documented in 237 and 238], fall away, or go into apostasy, which DOES NOT harmonize with the rest of the Scripture at all. You have no argument, so you might as well give it up!

Quasar92

Your disdain for the truth of the original Scripture, and for those in whose native tongue it was written, is on unconcealed display, another patent example of dispensational modernist cultic hubris.

Is Greek your native tongue?

My obsession is with truth, as it also is with those of your own fold who rebuff your position. From your names list, here's an eponymous poor deluded institution deceived by Scripture which has been “altered by unscrupulous scribes”:

“The Apostasy of the Church

Without designating a specific time table, the Apostle Paul warns of a “falling away” from the faith (2 Tim 4:1) that will lead to a heeding of deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons (I Tim 4:2) Paul simply says it will occur in the “later times” and produce hypocrisy and a searing of the conscience. This apostasy will be religious and moral in nature (II Tim 3:1-7) and will happen prior to the rapture of the Church and before the revelation of the son of destruction, the Antichrist (II Thess. 2:1-5). Paul further teaches that the seeds of apostasy are present in the Church but they will also completely mature in the last days, which he describes as “difficult times” (II Tim. 3:1).”

Alva J McClain School of Theology Doctrinal Statement

Riberra · May 31, 2017

Quasar92 said:
You have been shown where apostasia not only means apostasy and falling away, but also, to depart or departure. The latter is what Paul posted and meant in 2 Thess.2:3!

Quasar92

PAUL TALK ABOUT A DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH.....NOT A DEPARTURE FROM THE EARTH !!!

Quasar92 · May 31, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Your error is ignoring that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13. The New Covenant is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

When the Church began on the Day of Pentecost is was made up of the Israelites that Peter addressed in Acts 2:36.

Gentiles were not grafted into the Israelite Church until after Stephen reviewed the whole history of Israel and was then stoned. The man who would be selected by God to mainly take the Gospel to the Gentiles was standing by holding the coats of those who murdered Stephen.

The Church as a whole has never been a Gentile Church.

.

And your first error is in the fact that though New Covenant has been fulfilled by the shed blood of Jesus...which founded His Church...that increases daily...HAS NOT YET been accepted by non-believing Israel...who HAVE NOT YET recognized Jesus as their Messiah! Which will not take place until Jesus return in His second advent, as recorded in Zech.12:10 and Zech,14:4-5! Which I have posted for you previously! Nothing has changed since then!

Your second error is attempting to make Israel, the Church, which is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures! Israel consists of non-believers. The One Body of Christ, consisting of Jews and Gentiles, are believers, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13. They will become ONE FLOCK, with one Shepherd, AFTER Jesus second coming, as recorded in Jn.10:16.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · May 31, 2017

jgr said:
Your disdain for the truth of the original Scripture, and for those in whose native tongue it was written, is on unconcealed display, another patent example of dispensational modernist cultic hubris.

Is Greek your native tongue?

My obsession is with truth, as it also is with those of your own fold who rebuff your position. From your names list, here's an eponymous poor deluded institution deceived by Scripture which has been “altered by unscrupulous scribes”:

“The Apostasy of the Church

Without designating a specific time table, the Apostle Paul warns of a “falling away” from the faith (2 Tim 4:1) that will lead to a heeding of deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons (I Tim 4:2) Paul simply says it will occur in the “later times” and produce hypocrisy and a searing of the conscience. This apostasy will be religious and moral in nature (II Tim 3:1-7) and will happen prior to the rapture of the Church and before the revelation of the son of destruction, the Antichrist (II Thess. 2:1-5). Paul further teaches that the seeds of apostasy are present in the Church but they will also completely mature in the last days, which he describes as “difficult times” (II Tim. 3:1).”

Alva J McClain School of Theology Doctrinal Statement

Until you have respect for others and the Scriptures that refute you, with your abrasive, dogmatic, unqualified arguing, you have had my last response. FYI, I do not have to tolerate your attitude towards me. You are dead wrong and won't admit it, so you attack me personally, because you are unable to field any kind of reply, the Scriptures I post refute your views by!

Quasar92

Quasar92 · May 31, 2017

parousia70 said:
My Bad, #161

No, you have failed to address any of the scriptures I have cited.

I'll re post them for your edification.
"The Church" in Acts 2:47 had a grand total of 0 Gentiles in it. It is a JEWISH entity.
It was (and still is) the Nazarene sect of Judaism, the faithful remnant who followed Israel's Messiah. The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ).

However, as you demonstrate from your postings, you have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).
YOU TEACH THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE APOSTLES TEACH.

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Just like with Moses in the Wilderness, Believing Faithful Israel continues, while Wicked, Apostate Israel is destroyed.

And Just Like Old Covenant Israel, Gentiles who believe and convert to New Covenant Israel are welcomed and received as full fledged citizens.

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Then address the scriptures above that teach the opposite of your claim.

Rather, The continuation of Israel is ALWAYS counted through the faithful, and the non believers are "CUT OFF FROM THE PEOPLE" and have "NO INHERITANCE"
This is what scripture teaches.

I'm an amateur theology buff, with 30 years of Bible study under my belt. I'm not a teacher nor have I claimed to be one.
But when I see a teacher such as you teaching the opposite of what the Apostles believed and taught, I'm going to side with the apostles teaching over yours, and I'm going to encourage everyone I can to do the same.

Your denigrating what I post comes from an unqualified source of self training over a 30 year period of time, in which you continue to teach error. Too many for me to address tonight. Not that it makes a bit of difference, but I began my studies in 1937, 80 years ago, and specifically in eschatology over the past 35 years.

The tip of the iceberg as to your views, I suggest you review Acts 2 that refute your claim the early Church was 100% Jewsh, for starters. Of course it was mostly Jewish in the beginning. So what? FYI, the Church IS NOT Israel! Israel do not accept Jesus as their Meswsiah and won't until Jesus second coming in Zech.12:10 and Zech.14:4-5! I will get back to you as time permits me to do so.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · May 31, 2017

Riberra said:
PAUL TALK ABOUT A DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH.....NOT A DEPARTURE FROM THE EARTH !!!

Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:15-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, are not about a departure from the faith, It is about a coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, as documented in the following four posts:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

Riberra · May 31, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:15-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, are not about a departure from the faith, It is about a coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, as documented in the following four posts:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

John 17:15

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

BABerean2 · May 31, 2017

Quasar92 said:
And your first error is in the fact that though New Covenant has been fulfilled by the shed blood of Jesus...which founded His Church...that increases daily...HAS NOT YET been accepted by non-believing Israel...who HAVE NOT YET recognized Jesus as their Messiah! Which will not take place until Jesus return in His second advent

You are attempting to ignore what happened on the day of Pentecost, when Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel', and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel."
On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"　(These were those Peter addressed in the last verse as "all the house of Israel".)
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."　
Act 2:41　 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.　
(That would be about 3,000 Israelites which were added to them.)

The words of Peter have not changed since the Day of Pentecost.

Your claim that Israelites have not accepted Christ is shown to be in error.

Then you also try to ignore Hebrews 8:6-13.

How can all of your doctors get it so wrong?

.

jgr · Jun 1, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Until you have respect for others and the Scriptures that refute you, with your abrasive, dogmatic, unqualified arguing, you have had my last response. FYI, I do not have to tolerate your attitude towards me. You are dead wrong and won't admit it, so you attack me personally, because you are unable to field any kind of reply, the Scriptures I post refute your views by!

Quasar92

Another rejection from your list of the learned:

"All of these movements may be summed up in the word Paul uses of that fearful condition to appear at the end of the age, the Apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2. 3)." (italics not mine).

Wilbur M. Smith

Quasar92 · Jun 1, 2017

Riberra said:
John 17:15

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

In the above prayer, Jesus is praying specifically for His twelve disciples whom He needed to preach the Gospel to the whole world after He ascended back into heaven.

In the following passage, He is not only addressing them, but also prophecying to all of us who believe in Him, in the future.

Jn.14:1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 1, 2017

Riberra said:
John 17:15

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

See my post #249 that refute you.

Quasar92.

JLB777 · Jun 1, 2017

Quasar92 said:
1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection, as I explained to you in my post #204.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Your "explanation" of the dead in Christ being raised is somehow "not the resurrection of the dead" is not biblical.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ happens at His coming:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. vs. 16

If the dead in Christ are not raised at His coming, then when do you believe they are raised?

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture are ONE EVENT, that happen at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. vs. 17

shall be caught up together with them.
together with them

Together with them teaches us the raptured ones will be caught up together with the resurrected ones.

JLB

Quasar92 · Jun 1, 2017

BABerean2 said:
You are attempting to ignore what happened on the day of Pentecost, when Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel', and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel."
On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"　(These were those Peter addressed in the last verse as "all the house of Israel".)
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."　
Act 2:41　 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.　
(That would be about 3,000 Israelites which were added to them.)

The words of Peter have not changed since the Day of Pentecost.

Your claim that Israelites have not accepted Christ is shown to be in error.

Then you also try to ignore Hebrews 8:6-13.

How can all of your doctors get it so wrong?

.

BABerean2 wrote:>>>

BABerean2 said:
You are attempting to ignore what happened on the day of Pentecost, when Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel', and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel."
On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"　(These were those Peter addressed in the last verse as "all the house of Israel".)
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."　
Act 2:41　 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.　
(That would be about 3,000 Israelites which were added to them.)

The words of Peter have not changed since the Day of Pentecost.

Your claim that Israelites have not accepted Christ is shown to be in error.

Then you also try to ignore Hebrews 8:6-13.

How can all of your doctors get it so wrong?

.

BABerean2 wrote: >>>"You are attempting to ignore what happened on the day of Pentecost, when Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel', and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel."
On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words."<<<

What I am attempting to do, is to open your eyes to what the Scriptures teach. Listen up: Beginning with the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, EVERYONE WHO EVER BELIEVES IN JESUS, BELONG TO HIS ONE BODY, HIS CHURCH! NOT TO ISRAEL! Show me one single passage of Scripture that supports such a non-Biblical view. FYI, I know full well what I teach, there is NO speculation! Review Col.1:18!

Col.1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy."

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 1, 2017

JLB777 said:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Your "explanation" of the dead in Christ being raised is somehow "not the resurrection of the dead" is not biblical.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ happens at His coming:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. vs. 16

If the dead in Christ are not raised at His coming, then when do you believe they are raised?

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture are ONE EVENT, that happen at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. vs. 17

shall be caught up together with them.

together with them

Together with them teaches us the raptured ones will be caught up together with the resurrected ones.

JLB

First of all, Jesus showed John in Rev.20:4 the tribulation martyrs, seven years after the events in 1 Thess.4:16, where the dead in Christ will rise first...is the FIRST resurrection. Calling 1 Thess.4:16 the first one, would make a liar out of Jesus, would it not?

Would you care to hazard a guess as to how the dead in Christ got into heaven, in order to return from there with Christ, in 1 Thess.4:14?

When a believer died, beginning at Pentecost to this very day, Jesus takes them to heaven with Him immediately, recorded in 2 Cor.2:6-8, Confirming Ecc.12:7, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

Would you care to hazard a guess as to why all of them who have previously died in Christ are not changed in a twinkling of an eye, as those will all be who are left on earth alive, at Jesus coming, in 1 Thess.4:16, as recorded in 1 Cor.15:51-53?

The fact of the matter is, those who previously died in Christ, in 1 Thess.4:16, had already RISEN FIRST previously, before those left on earth alive at Jesus coming, each in his/her own turn, as addressed above.

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Jun 1, 2017

Quasar92 said:
EVERYONE WHO EVER BELIEVES IN JESUS, BELONG TO HIS ONE BODY, HIS CHURCH! NOT TO ISRAEL! Show me one single passage of Scripture that supports such a non-Biblical view.

Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　(Notice the present tense and past tense of this verse)
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　(from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　

Heb 9:11　 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.　
Heb 9:12　 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.　
Heb 9:13　 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,　
Heb 9:14　 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?　
Heb 9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.　
Heb 9:16　 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.　
Heb 9:17　 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.　
Heb 9:18　 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.　

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

Why do you continue to pretend that the text above does not exist?

.

parousia70 · Jun 1, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Not that it makes a bit of difference, but I began my studies in 1937, 80 years ago, and specifically in eschatology over the past 35 years.

You are right. That does not make a bit of difference. Since I can (and have) shown from scripture that you teach the opposite of what Jesus and the Apostles taught, your 80 years of erroneous schooling has been shown to be left wanting.

The tip of the iceberg as to your views, I suggest you review Acts 2 that refute your claim the early Church was 100% Jewish, for starters.

Ok...Lets review.
Acts 2:47
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Lets count the Gentiles in the Church at this time the Lord was adding people to it daily in Acts 2.

Lets see... hmmm... 500? 300? 200? 100? nope...
hmmm...one, two, 10, 20? 50?..
no wait... scratch that...

The Correct, truthful answer is ZERO.

A grand total of ZERO gentiles were being added to the Church Daily at that time.. this Church, Like the Church with Moses in the Wilderness (Acts 7:37-38) was a 100% JEWISH entity. It consisted entirely of Faithful, Obedient Israel. and we know from scripture that Faithful Obedient Israel is the ONLY Israel God recognizes as Israel, while the unbelieving wicked sons of Abraham are Cut off forever and have no inheritance. We also know that Gentiles could always join Israel by belief and obedience, and were considered full citizens of the Nation. As the believing Jewish remnant learned shortly after Pentecost, New Covenant Nazarene Israel is no exception.

The Church is the Nazarene sect of Biblical Judaism, of whom Paul was a "ringleader".

Of course it was mostly Jewish in the beginning.

You call 100% "mostly"?... I guess they didn't teach Math at Divinity school then?

So what? FYI, the Church IS NOT Israel!

It plainly is.
It is the ONLY Israel with a covenant relationship with the Living God.
The unbelieving rest are "Cut off from among the People" and "have no inheritance" according to scriptures you ignore.

Such was true in Moses' Day (Acts 7:37-38) Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9) through which Israel continues, while the unbelieving rest are cut off, destroyed from among the people. So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ).

However, as you demonstrate from your postings, you have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

YOU TEACH THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE APOSTLES TEACH.

You teach that the wicked, disobedient sons of Abraham are to be counted as Israel, while the Faithful, obedient Sons of Abraham are Cut off from the people and have no inheritance!

Such is untenable to any honest bible expositor.

Will there be a second chance for salvation after the Rapture?

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