When God, the Son, stepped down from his pre-incarnate form with the Father, before anything was...?

GreenStreet · May 30, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
When God the son stepped down from his pre-incarnate form with the Father, before anything was, (made or came into existence) to an "incarnate" form to interact with man and his creation, from where he was with the Father and the Spirit, did he "lose" anything, did he become separated from God, the Father and possibly the Spirit...?

Comments...?

Peace,

God Bless!

The One God has three main attributes. He's eternal, immortal, and invisible. (1 Tim 1:17).

The Son OF God (not "God the Son") was created (Psalms 8:5), was mortal (1 Thess 4:14), and was visible (John 9:37).

The Father (divine) and the Son (flesh) were not co-equal and co-eternal. But rather the fulness of the Almighty God dwelt in the Son. (2 Corinth 5:19, Coloss 2:9)

God is a Spirit and is indivisible. He fills all time and space. It is impossible to seperate Him into parts. (2 Chron 2:6)

Uber Genius · May 30, 2017

DrBubbaLove said:
aken out of context as it was done here my comment could probably be taken many ways - am not sure

The context of your comment is not germane in a logical extension fallacy all that is necessary is that you misrepresent the comments of the person you are attacking. Which you did to Dave.

Not generous.

DrBubbaLove said:
In context that comment was to someone appearing to support the idea that Jesus Divinity was somehow limited and/or could be "separated" from God. So as a rebuttal to that idea, my saying Jesus is not "God lite" is

Again you have extended the point others are making to suggest "Jesus' divinity is lacking." Your misrepresentation not that of the poster.

This is how straw men work. You start with a close approximation often using equivocal terms but nor meanings then you attack a statement that was never made. The weak-minded declare you the winner. Again, less than generous.

Uber Genius · May 30, 2017

DrBubbaLove said:
Exactly they are human. Which is why the extended and fuller tradition of all the saints/Saints is better because everyone gets to way in and eventually the human error gets resolved. Even if as already mentioned it occurs by

Point has nothing to do with Catholic vs Protestant dude.

Has to do with how God allows knowledge to progress over time.

DrBubbaLove said:
Again yup, people are people. Doesn't take a genious to figure that out.

Again point has to do with epistemology not ecclesiology, less than generous.

DrBubbaLove said:
Actually the teaching is only three legs. And from an engineering standpoint, that is more stable than four anyway.

nice false analogy which while being clever misses the bigger point, fallacy and rhetorical appeal are meant to deceive not inform. They are part and parcel with propaganda. False analogy is another fallacy. Your are consistent at least. But how can we learn from this type of dialog that misrepresents others so consistently? How can we learn from someone who doesn't seek to gain understanding before they attempt to shut down conversation pretending to be the smartest guy in the room?

YesMe · May 31, 2017

Jesus was/is God's Word, the truth.

The Word became flesh, and everything He did on Earth, it was as God, the Father, planned, He did God's will.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.

Jesus said that we can be sons of God if we follow Him and His teachings, in other words, if we are doing God's will, we can be called sons of God.

JoeP222w · May 31, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
did he "lose" anything, did he become separated from God, the Father and possibly the Spirit...?

Jesus never became separated from the Father and Holy Spirit. Jesus has always been fully God.

GreenStreet · May 31, 2017

YesMe said:
Jesus was/is God's Word, the truth.

The Word became flesh, and everything He did on Earth, it was as God, the Father, planned, He did God's will.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.

Jesus said that we can be sons of God if we follow Him and His teachings, in other words, if we are doing God's will, we can be called sons of God.

The Father, Son & HG are all the same?

Why then are clear distinctions made all throughout the NT?

The Father created the Son. The Son died, the Father did not. The Son is visible, the Father is not.

The list goes on and on.

GreenStreet · May 31, 2017

JoeP222w said:
Jesus never became separated from the Father and Holy Spirit. Jesus has always been fully God.

So you're saying God was "made a little lower than the angels"?

God wasn't made, he's the maker of all things. God isn't lower, he's called the highest.

The man Christ Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. There's a distiction there.

JoeP222w · May 31, 2017

GreenStreet said:
So you're saying God was "made a little lower than the angels"?

I did not say that.

However, in role and relationship, yes, Jesus was a little lower than the Father. In essence and being, Jesus (the Son) is equal to the Father.

GreenStreet said:
God wasn't made, he's the maker of all things.

I never wrote (or implied) Jesus was made as a creation is made. I never denied Jesus is Creator.

GreenStreet said:
God isn't lower, he's called the highest.

In His incarnation, Jesus (the Son), humbled Himself and became man (not the same sense as we are created).

GreenStreet · May 31, 2017

JoeP222w said:
I did not say that.

However, in role and relationship, yes, Jesus was a little lower than the Father. In essence and being, Jesus (the Son) is equal to the Father.

The Son of God was not equal to the Father in essence and being. The Son was the Word (Logos or "plan") of God made flesh. He was limited, mortal, and visible.

God the Father is a Spirit. Flesh and blood (which the Son had) can't even glory in his presence. (1 Cor 1:29). God is eternal, immortal and invisible (1 Timothy)

JoeP222w said:
I never wrote (or implied) Jesus was made as a creation is made. I never denied Jesus is Creator.

How was the Son not made like you are I?

He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3). He was a Jew. He had descent. He was part of a tribe, part of the family of David.

JoeP222w said:
In His incarnation, Jesus (the Son), humbled Himself and became man (not the same sense as we are created).

He was a man with flesh and blood. The difference was that in him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2). Jesus Christ even said, "i can do nothing of myself". He was completely submitted to the Father. Every word, action and thought.

JoeP222w · May 31, 2017

GreenStreet said:
The Son of God was not equal to the Father in essence and being.

You are in disagreement with scripture:

John 5:16-19 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. (17) But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." (18) This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (19) So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

Philippians 2:5-7 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, (6) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (7) but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Romans 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Titus 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

GreenStreet said:
He was limited, mortal, and visible.

Completely disagree that Jesus Christ was "limited".

Revelation 1:7-8 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (8) "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

GreenStreet said:
Flesh and blood (which the Son had) can't even glory in his presence.

Jesus is fully man and fully God. He is not flesh as sinful man is flesh. Jesus is God.

If you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, you are denying an essential, foundational truth of Christianity.

GreenStreet said:
How was the Son not made like you are I?

Jesus was supernaturally made incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary. Humans are made through human sexual intercourse. God did not have sexual intercourse with Mary.

GreenStreet said:
He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3). He was a Jew. He had descent. He was part of a tribe, part of the family of David.

I don't disagree on this point.

GreenStreet said:
He was a man with flesh and blood. The difference was that in him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2). Jesus Christ even said, "i can do nothing of myself". He was completely submitted to the Father. Every word, action and thought.

I don't disagree with this either, but that is not the end of the story. The Son submitted to the Father in role and relationship, but was equal in essence and being, as I mentioned previously. You appear to be confusing categories. Moreover, Jesus' submission to the Father does not somehow denote He is a lesser being or not God.

DrBubbaLove · May 31, 2017

Uber Genius said:
How can we learn from someone who doesn't seek to gain understanding before they attempt to shut down conversation pretending to be the smartest guy in the room?

Would sort of be my question to you.

danstribe · May 31, 2017

Dave-W said:
Phil 2.6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

He limited himself to human frailty so He could be our example of how to rely on the power of the Holy Spirit, both in the miracles He did and in the sinless life HE led. Had he done any of that in His own intrinsic divinity, we could not follow Him because we are NOT divine.

As to being separated, on the cross He cried out "MY God, why have you forsaken me?" So there may have been a temporary separation between Father and Son while the sins of the world were on our Lord.

I have thought about when He cried out "MY God, why have You forsaken Me?" Knowing that the bible says that the soul that sins shall die and the wages of sin is death and also knowing that Christ NEVER sinned, never brought the death penalty upon Himself that perhaps God had to leave Him in order for Him to die. Death had no hold on Him because He never sinned yet He voluntarily gave up His life, it was NOT taken from Him.

GreenStreet · May 31, 2017

JoeP222w said:
You are in disagreement with scripture:

John 5:16-19 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. (17) But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." (18) This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (19) So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

Philippians 2:5-7 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, (6) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (7) but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Romans 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Titus 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Completely disagree that Jesus Christ was "limited".

Revelation 1:7-8 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (8) "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Jesus is fully man and fully God. He is not flesh as sinful man is flesh. Jesus is God.

If you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, you are denying an essential, foundational truth of Christianity.

Jesus was supernaturally made incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary. Humans are made through human sexual intercourse. God did not have sexual intercourse with Mary.

I don't disagree on this point.

I don't disagree with this either, but that is not the end of the story. The Son submitted to the Father in role and relationship, but was equal in essence and being, as I mentioned previously. You appear to be confusing categories. Moreover, Jesus' submission to the Father does not somehow denote He is a lesser being or not God.

Maybe we're arguing over semantics, i'm not really sure at this point. Let me try to summarize my view of the Godhead.

There is One God, none beside him (Duet 6:4).

This One God is a Spirit. He cannot be looked upon, he's never died, and he's existed from everlasting to everlasting.

The Son of God had a physical and mortal body. That flesh was not God, but rather all the fulness of God dwelt in Him.

The Son of God said that he came in His Father's name..which was Jesus. Jesus is the name of God.

Scripture agrees with me on all those points. But to say God died on a cross is blatant heresy. I hope that's not what you are implying..

JoeP222w · May 31, 2017

GreenStreet said:
There is One God, none beside him (Duet 6:4).

I agree.

GreenStreet said:
This One God is a Spirit.

The Father and the Holy Spirit are Spirit. Jesus has eternally existed as spirit and became incarnate.

GreenStreet said:
He cannot be looked upon

In the fullness of His glory, yes, I agree.

GreenStreet said:
he's never died

In the sense of dying to non-existence, I agree. In the sense that the human body of Jesus died, yes, He did, but just because Jesus died, does not mean He ceased to exist.

GreenStreet said:
and he's existed from everlasting to everlasting.

True, the Father, Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit has always existed and always will.

GreenStreet said:
The Son of God had a physical and mortal body.

True, and He was also still fully God. Jesus is also Spirit, even in being fully man, just as we have a soul/spirit, Jesus has a soul/spirit.

GreenStreet said:
That flesh was not God, but rather all the fulness of God dwelt in Him.

This seems to be a denial that Jesus is God, but that Jesus was indwelt by God. Can you provide scripture for this? Or am I misunderstanding you?

GreenStreet said:
The Son of God said that he came in His Father's name..which was Jesus.

I am not clear on this statement. Are you saying the Father's name is "Jesus"? That would mean the Son is the Father, and that is not Biblical doctrine, that would be Modalism.

GreenStreet said:
Jesus is the name of God.

Yes, Jesus is God, the second person of the Trinity.

GreenStreet said:
Scripture agrees with me on all those points.

I don't see where you provide scripture reference for most of your points.

GreenStreet said:
But to say God died on a cross is blatant heresy.

In the sense that God ceased to exist, I agree. However, Jesus' human flesh did die, but again, that does not mean He ceased to exist. Christians do not believe that death is the ceasing of existence.

I did not say God ceased to exist, and if you thought I was implying that, you have misunderstood me.

GreenStreet · May 31, 2017

JoeP222w said:
Jesus has eternally existed as spirit and became incarnate.

The Son was begotten (Psalms 2:7, John 1:14, John 3:16). The word "begotten" in the NT references is the Greek word "ginomai" or "to come into being".

We know that the Almighty God who dwelt in Jesus existed before the Incarnation. The body of Christ did not.

You seem to be implying that there were multiple, seperate "Spirits" that existed eternally..which would mean polytheism.

God is a Spirit. He fills all time and space. How can he be divided? Where can you go in heaven, earth or hell that he is not there? (Psalms 139:8)

JoeP222w said:
This seems to be a denial that Jesus is God, but that Jesus was indwelt by God. Can you provide scripture for this? Or am I misunderstanding you?

2 Corinthians 5:19- "To wit God was IN Christ"

Colossians 2:9- "For IN him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"

John 14:10- "the words that I speak, I speak not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth IN me, he doeth the works"

JoeP222w said:
I am not clear on this statement. Are you saying the Father's name is "Jesus"? That would mean the Son is the Father, and that is not Biblical doctrine, that would be Modalism.

John 5:43- "I come in my Father's name"

Jesus was the name given to the Son by his heavenly Father.

God hath given him a name which is above every name - Phillipians 2:9-11

It was the Father's name to give.

Jesus means "Jehovah is salvation" Jehovah is another name for the One true God of the OT. The name was passed down to the Son.

JoeP222w said:
Yes, Jesus is God, the second person of the Trinity.

Wrong. Heresy.

The word Trinity is not biblical.

The term "God in three persons is not biblical" (persons? Lol)

The term God the Son is not biblical.

The term eternal Sonship is not biblical.

The term 2nd person is not biblical.

I'll give you "Jesus is God" because the name of the Father is Jesus, (even though I know you were meaning to say that the flesh of Jesus somehow was divine). You're welcome.

JoeP222w said:
I don't see where you provide scripture reference for most of your points.

I've provided scripture for every key point. See above.

JoeP222w · May 31, 2017

GreenStreet said:
The Son was begotten (Psalms 2:7, John 1:14, John 3:16). The word "begotten" in the NT references is the Greek word "ginomai" or "to come into being".

We know that the Almighty God who dwelt in Jesus existed before the Incarnation. The body of Christ did not.

You seem to be implying that there were multiple, seperate "Spirits" that existed eternally..which would mean polytheism.

God is a Spirit. He fills all time and space. How can he be divided? Where can you go in heaven, earth or hell that he is not there? (Psalms 139:8)

2 Corinthians 5:19- "To wit God was IN Christ"

Colossians 2:9- "For IN him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"

John 14:10- "the words that I speak, I speak not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth IN me, he doeth the works"

John 5:43- "I come in my Father's name"

Jesus was the name given to the Son by his heavenly Father.

God hath given him a name which is above every name - Phillipians 2:9-11

It was the Father's name to give.

Jesus means "Jehovah is salvation" Jehovah is another name for the One true God of the OT. The name was passed down to the Son.

Wrong. Heresy.

The word Trinity is not biblical.

The term "God in three persons is not biblical" (persons? Lol)

The term God the Son is not biblical.

The term eternal Sonship is not biblical.

The term 2nd person is not biblical.

I'll give you "Jesus is God" because the name of the Father is Jesus, (even though I know you were meaning to say that the flesh of Jesus somehow was divine). You're welcome.

I've provided scripture for every key point. See above.

Are you Oneness Pentecostal?

GreenStreet · May 31, 2017

JoeP222w said:
Are you Oneness Pentecostal?

I'm in association with anyone who believes and follows the Word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Did you ask that question in lieu of explaining why there is no scripture for all those trinitarian words/terms?

Open Heart · Jun 2, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
When God the son stepped down from his pre-incarnate form with the Father, before anything was, (made or came into existence) to an "incarnate" form to interact with man and his creation, from where he was with the Father and the Spirit, did he "lose" anything, did he become separated from God, the Father and possibly the Spirit...?

Comments...?

Peace,

God Bless!

When the WORD became flesh, he was a being that was fully God and fully man. IOW he did not give up being God or being in contact with the Father and the Spirit. However, he did "humble himself" when he took on human form.

For example, God is omnipresent -- everywhere at the same time. Jesus was only at one location at a time.
Here's another one. God is omniscient -- all knowing. But Jesus didn't know who touched him (it was the hemorrhagic woman).

Open Heart · Jun 2, 2017

GreenStreet said:
I'm in association with anyone who believes and follows the Word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Did you ask that question in lieu of explaining why there is no scripture for all those trinitarian words/terms?

Very suspicious that you couldn't give a straight answer.

GreenStreet · Jun 2, 2017

Open Heart said:
Very suspicious that you couldn't give a straight answer.

I don't know how I could have been more clear.

None of those labels (Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc.) that you like to attach to individuals are biblical.

I'm a Christian, and I guess you can say I'm "Oneness" since I believe in one God as the scripture teaches.

Now...back to all those unbiblical trinitarian terms.

When God, the Son, stepped down from his pre-incarnate form with the Father, before anything was...?

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