Origin of Satan

buzuxi

Newbie
Nov 25, 2003
106
27
Visit site
✟2,265.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Mik,

Your not understanding at what I'm saying in my previous posts. I don't believe that evil spirits are an effluence from God although in certain texts of the OT they are portrayed as such (1Samuel 18:10). The OP is saying that satan was a generic term for adversary or accuser not a separate being who is a chief of fallen demons as understood today . And insinuates these early texts are the only one which are true about the nature of Satan or possibly demonic beings

Angel is a generic term as well in both Hebrew and Greek which means messenger. John the Baptist is called an angel in Mark 1:2
In Genesis angels are described as either humans (Genesis 18:1-3) or as a fire and are recognized as visitations of the very God Himself albeit in a disguised form. Thus using this same reasoning We should discard a belief in angels as actual spiritual creatures.
My argument is that it's irrelevant what was believed in some primitive point in time as Christians we interpret in light of the gospel. Using the OP approach can also mean to discard archangel Michael and Gabriel, they are never mentioned in the Torah and their appearance in Daniel can be explained as an anomaly of a later corruption
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Mik,

Your not understanding at what I'm saying in my previous posts. I don't believe that evil spirits are an effluence from God although in certain texts of the OT they are portrayed as such (1Samuel 18:10). The OP is saying that satan was a generic term for adversary or accuser not a separate being who is a chief of fallen demons as understood today . And insinuates these early texts are the only one which are true about the nature of Satan or possibly demonic beings

Angel is a generic term as well in both Hebrew and Greek which means messenger. John the Baptist is called an angel in Mark 1:2

John the Baptist is called a messenger. You implied more than what the scripture actually says.

Genesis angels are described as either humans (Genesis 18:1-3) or as a fire and are recognized as visitations of the very God Himself albeit in a disguised form.
They were given honor because they were recognized as servants of GOD

using this same reasoning We should discard a belief in angels as actual spiritual creatures.
Thank you, but no. I believe thAt we should stick to GOD's WORD as TRUTH and not listen to men telling us "Did GOD really say?"
My argument is that it's irrelevant what was believed in some primitive point in time as Christians we interpret in light of the gospel.

At least you agree that it is your argument I still believe that we should listen to GOD

Using the OP approach can also mean to discard archangel Michael and Gabriel, they are never mentioned in the Torah and their appearance in Daniel can be explained as an anomaly of a later corruption

Let's not do that. Let's not discard Gabriel and Michael at all




All these suggestions are you talking by your own spirit

Not by GOD's
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,836
794
✟516,876.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To this day, Christian baptism requires a person to solemnly" renounce the devil and all his works" and to accept exorcism. Rereading biblical and extra biblical accounts of angels, I learned first of all what many scholars have pointed out: that while angels often appear in the Hebrew Bible, Satan, along with other fallen angels or demonic beings, is virtually absent. Source: MY COPY of The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels, introduction xvi, Copyright 1995
So why does anyone even want to think there is a supernatural being such as a Satan that can never die and would have to be immortal if he was equal unto the angels and still lives after 6,000 years, when Luke says those that obtain resurrection Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels
Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Where does that leave the Satan Theory?
The source of or origin of the concept of a real Satan or devil is the Bible...you do not address these passages.
Read Isaiah 14, it is the account of the fall of Satan or Lucifer's (KJV). Then spare me the work of copy/pasting by reading up on all the Bible has to say on the devil, Satan, or Lucifer...simply go to Biblegateway.com and do a search on these three words individually and read up.
Best to read your Bible before other books.
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi

Newbie
Nov 25, 2003
106
27
Visit site
✟2,265.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
John the Baptist is called a messenger. You implied more than what the scripture actually says.


They were given honor because they were recognized as servants of GOD


Thank you, but no. I believe thAt we should stick to GOD's WORD as TRUTH and not listen to men telling us "Did GOD really say?"


At least you agree that it is your argument I still believe that we should listen to GOD



Let's not do that. Let's not discard Gabriel and Michael at all




All these suggestions are you talking by your own spirit

Not by GOD's

You do realize John the Baptist is literally called "angel" in Mark 1:2 ??? Which is my response to the OP where the angel of the Lord is literally called Satan (adversary) in the Balaam story.
They are generic terms used in a broader fashion.
I agree with the OP, that in the primitive OT texts you can legitimately draw the conclusion he is making. I disagree though that anything that comes later should be taken with a grain of salt or discarded or having always been misinterpreted by etc. That as Christians we dont interpret various texts in isolation of the others or to downgrade them due to originating in a later epoch.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: mcarmichael
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The source of or origin of the concept of a real Satan or devil is the Bible...you do not address these passages.
Read Isaiah 14, it is the account of the fall of Satan or Lucifer's (KJV). Then spare me the work of copy/pasting by reading up on all the Bible has to say on the devil, Satan, or Lucifer...simply go to Biblegateway.com and do a search on these three words individually and read up.
Best to read your Bible before other books.
Ezekiel 28 as well
And Zechariah 3
And job 1
And Revelation 12
And Luke 10
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The source of or origin of the concept of a real Satan or devil is the Bible...you do not address these passages.
Read Isaiah 14, it is the account of the fall of Satan or Lucifer's (KJV). Then spare me the work of copy/pasting by reading up on all the Bible has to say on the devil, Satan, or Lucifer...
Duh... Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Hillel , son of the nm. morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
The name is a cognate of the Hebrew word Shachar (שחר) meaning dawn.
In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge) Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.
Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings. Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The evil and evil one do no not exist (because the God is source of Existence), but the evil and the evil ones are the PROBLEM with solution in hell.
Yes, therein lies the problem because How are you fallen from heaven, day star, son of the dawn! How are you fallen to earth, conqueror of the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven, above the stars of God; I will set my throne on high . . . I will ascend upon the high clouds. . . ." But you are brought down to darkness [or: the underworld, Sheol], to the depths of the pit (Isa. 14:12-15).
Psa_6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Duh... Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Hillel , son of the nm. morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
The name is a cognate of the Hebrew word Shachar (שחר) meaning dawn.
In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge) Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.
Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings. Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil
Is there a concept of a hell?
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So get a RIGHT COVERING
And keep it
Although there are no devils in Daniel's world. there are angels, and there are enemies. The author presents the alien enemies, rulers of the Persian, Medean, and Hellenistic empires, in traditional visionary imagery, as monstrous beasts. In one vision, the first beast is `'like a lion with eagles" wings"; the second "like a bear," Ferociously devouring its prey; the third like a leopard "with four wings of a bird on its back and four heads"; and "a fourth beast [is] terrible and dreadful and exceedingly strong; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet." In another vision, Daniel sees a horned ram that the angel Gabriel explains to him "is the king of Greece." Throughout the visions of Daniel, such monstrous animals represent foreign rulers and nations who threaten Israel. THE ORIGIN OF SATAN by Ellen Pagels Copyright 1995 Page 48 scanned from MY book.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Although there are no devils in Daniel's world. there are angels, and there are enemies. The author presents the alien enemies, rulers of the Persian, Medean, and Hellenistic empires, in traditional visionary imagery, as monstrous beasts. In one vision, the first beast is `'like a lion with eagles" wings"; the second "like a bear," Ferociously devouring its prey; the third like a leopard "with four wings of a bird on its back and four heads"; and "a fourth beast [is] terrible and dreadful and exceedingly strong; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet." In another vision, Daniel sees a horned ram that the angel Gabriel explains to him "is the king of Greece." Throughout the visions of Daniel, such monstrous animals represent foreign rulers and nations who threaten Israel. THE ORIGIN OF SATAN by Ellen Pagels Copyright 1995 Page 48 scanned from MY book.
And clearly these have hearts that are more evil than just the heart of a natural man

We certainly know that these visions given to Daniel were not literally physical monstrous beasts but had spirits likened to monstrous beasts. A demeanor, a personality, an inner essence, a spirit, a likeness to monstrous beasts

When three unclean spirits come out of the mouths of the false prophet the anti christ(beast) and the dragon... what are they and where do these spirits go?


They certainly aren't frogs
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Is there a concept of a hell?
Yes, they go down into the silence called the grave, pit, Sheol! Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, they go down into the silence called the grave, pit, Sheol! Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]
Will they come up again?
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
When three unclean spirits come out of the mouths of the false prophet the anti Christ (beast) and the dragon... what are they and where do these spirits go?
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]
They certainly aren't frogs
Rev 16:13 And I saw out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, as frogs;
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
As a symbol of heretics and philosophers, as understood by Augustine; The reference is to what the “dragon,” the “beast,” and the “false prophet” would do at that time in opposing the truth, and in preparing the world for the great and final conflict. [BARNES]
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY] Rev 16:13 And I saw out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, as frogs;
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Thanks!

That answers the question

Did everyone get that?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY] Rev 16:13 And I saw out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, as frogs;
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
He-man

The woman in the basket

Is really not a woman in the basket but WICKEDNESS. and that WICKEDNESS was gathered til the day of that great battle of the "kings of the earth" for Satan has agreed to be used as the tool to get rid of her

Who is in the basket?

Do you think the "kings of the earth" are there and all who do WICKEDNESS?

I mean the scroll went out and with it was identified those who do WICKEDNESS

And the craftsmen surely will come and do their own work before that work is complete
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Do you think the "kings of the earth" are there and all who do WICKEDNESS?
"kings of the earth" = the Armies of the USA, Israel, Russia, etc. ALL Armies will be gathered to fight against CHRIST and will be defeated because they all represent the FROG of deceit and false ideas of the scriptures!
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He man

You agree that these monstrous beasts are symbolic of men

Do you agree that the false prophet and the anti christ (beast whom the dragon gave his power to) are also symbolic of monstrous beasts?

Since you include the "kings of the earth" in that category as well
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,725
2,781
USA
✟101,174.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"kings of the earth" = the Armies of the USA, Israel, Russia, etc. ALL Armies will be gathered to fight against CHRIST and will be defeated because they all represent the FROG of deceit and false ideas of the scriptures!
The FROG of deceit?

You mean the spirit which the dragon (not really a dragon) because he can't manifest himself fully in one, which are the spirits of demons as clearly stated in Revelation 16:13 and Revelation 16:14 sent out to gather those "kings of the earth" against THE LORD

Is that what you mean by the FROG of deceit?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟90,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
satan is not a (be)souled being, but an unsouled spirit Blessings
Huh? Define unsoiled spirit. There are only human spirits and Godly spirits and immortal spirits that are equal unto the angels!
1Co 15:42 for they are equal unto the angels; in spirituality, purity and immortality; See Gill on Mat 22:30. But are as the angels of God in heaven; or, as in Luke, "are equal unto the angels"; and which he explains their immortality: "neither can they die any more"; no more than the angels can: for this must not be extended to everything; not in everything will the saints be like, or equal to the angels; they will not be incorporeal, as the angels are, but then, even their bodies will be spiritual, and in some respects, like spirits; they will not stand in any need of sustenance, by eating and drinking, any more than the angels; nor will there be any such things as marriage, and procreation of children among them, any more than among angels; for they "are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection": they will then appear to be the children of God by adopting grace, through their enjoying the adoption, even the redemption of their bodies; and possessing, in soul and body, the heavenly inheritance they are heirs of: indeed, the souls of the saints before the resurrection, during their separate state, are in some sense like the angels, to which may be applied those words of Maimonides (d), [GILL]
 
Upvote 0