Jewish New Testament

Mikhail said:

So why go back to the NAS then

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well it is a better study bible for me, i have the key word nas and I can digg more in it than Sterns course if a study bible pops up some day that is Hebraicaly written.... I would definately switch to it

Bruce101 said:

Jewish New Testament, I don't care for.
However, I love the commentary!
To me the JNT "tries" to hard to be Jewish.
For instance, when Yeshua is being tempted by HaSatan in the wilderness, in the JNT, Yeshua replies that man does not live by bread alone, but by the TNK. I believe that "every word of God" is a better representation of the facts.
Bruce

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I think TNK is better than "every word of God", but I think the best translation would be Torah, not TNK. This is because Yahshua couldn't have added or taken away from Torah in any way or else He would have 1) been sinning (Deut 4:2) and 2) been a false prophet (Deut 13:1-5).

So, what Yahshua is saying must be grounded in the Torah. That said, I think He's referring to Deut 32:45-47: "When Moses finished reciting all these words to all Israel, he said to them, "Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this Torah. They are not just idle words for you--THEY ARE YOUR LIFE. BY THEM YOU WILL LIVE LONG in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess."

Bruce101 said:

Yod , and a few others stated,
That verse doesn't bother me. The TNK was "the word of God" at the time He said it.

TNK is a closed book, nothing can be added to it is what I mean.
I agree that at that time it was the only word of God, however, there was more to come, and Yeshua knew it. The Renewed Covenant was on the way.
We live by all of what God has said, not just the TNK.
We live by "every word of God".
At least I try to live by every word.

Bruce

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Hi Bruce,

If I may make a couple points:

1) God can't add to His Torah. We know that God cannot sin (1 John 3:9). We know that sin is transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4). Therefore, God cannot transgress/break the Torah. The Torah says not to add to/take away from the Torah (Deut 4:2). So, to say that there was more to come that would alter Torah can't be correct - God would be sinning.

2) Let's define the Renewed Covenant biblically: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a renewed covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[fn] says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My Torah in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

The above definition of the Renewed Covenant does not include any description of an altered Torah. In fact, God explicitly says that we will all have THE TORAH written on our hearts and minds. In addition, He also says that each man will no longer teach His neighbor about YHWH. This still occurs today, so we can't be in the Renewed Covenant right now. However, we are certainly moving toward the Renewed Covenant.

If you're saying that YHWH added to His Torah with the Brit Hadasha then that is not biblically based and would mean that YHWH breaking His own Word/Torah and sinning.

Bruce101 said:

Jewish New Testament, I don't care for.
However, I love the commentary!
To me the JNT "tries" to hard to be Jewish.
For instance, when Yeshua is being tempted by HaSatan in the wilderness, in the JNT, Yeshua replies that man does not live by bread alone, but by the TNK. I believe that "every word of God" is a better representation of the facts.
Bruce

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I agree. I try to avoid any translation that alters the text through paraphrasing. The TNK does not include "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". It only includes what was recorded. What about the words of YHWH's NT prophets? "The TNK" only includes YHWH's past words, but the phrase that is missing includes all His words for all time.

christopheralan88 said:

I think TNK is better than "every word of God", but I think the best translation would be Torah, not TNK. This is because Yahshua couldn't have added or taken away from Torah in any way or else He would have 1) been sinning (Deut 4:2) and 2) been a false prophet (Deut 13:1-5).

So, what Yahshua is saying must be grounded in the Torah. That said, I think He's referring to Deut 32:45-47: "When Moses finished reciting all these words to all Israel, he said to them, "Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this Torah. They are not just idle words for you--THEY ARE YOUR LIFE. BY THEM YOU WILL LIVE LONG in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess."

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Yeshua was referring to Deuteronomy 8:3 which would include the words spoken through the prophets. They include not only Moses' words that were already spoken, but the words of future prophets as well (including His NT prophets.

gadar perets said:

Yeshua was referring to Deuteronomy 8:3 which would include the words spoken through the prophets. They include not only Moses' words that were already spoken, but the words of future prophets as well (including His NT prophets.

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Ah thanks, but look at the surrounding verses of Deut 8:3 (and couple it with Deut 32:45-47)....the context clearly shows that "Words of God" is the Torah. The prophets told Israel and Judah to repent, walk in Torah, and prophesied of things to come. The prophets did not add or subtract from Torah.

christopheralan88 said:

Ah thanks, but look at the surrounding verses of Deut 8:3 (and couple it with Deut 32:45-47)....the context clearly shows that "Words of God" is the Torah. The prophets told Israel and Judah to repent, walk in Torah, and prophesied of things to come. The prophets did not add or subtract from Torah.

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The words of God came to Israel through the prophet Moses. At that time, YHWH spoke His words (Torah), but later He used many prophets to speak His words.

The words YHWH spoke through the prophets are also the "Words of God". By using "Torah" in Matthew 4:4, you exclude all of YHWH's words through His prophets. Should we not live by the words of the prophet Micah?

gadar perets said:

The words of God came to Israel through the prophet Moses. At that time, YHWH spoke His words (Torah), but later He used many prophets to speak His words.

Jeremiah 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith YHWH, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith YHWH.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
​

The words YHWH spoke through the prophets are also the "Words of God". By using "Torah" in Matthew 4:4, you exclude all of YHWH's words through His prophets. Should we not live by the words of the prophet Micah?

Micah 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?​

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So, when YHWH instructs us not to add to or take away from the Torah (Deuteronomy 4:2), what does that mean?

In addition, Psalm 19:7 says that the Torah is perfect. The Hebrew word that translates to "perfect" is "tamiym". Tamiym also means "complete, whole, sound, entire, without blemish". In other words, the Torah is complete - it is not to be altered.

There is also something that needs to be cleared up: Yes, YHWH communicated through multiple prophets and not just Moses, who He used to communicate the Torah. But, not all of YHWH's words carry the same weight. Here are three examples:

First, only breaking the Torah is sinful (1 John 3:4). There is no mention of disobeying YHWH's words through other prophets as being sinful - although it would be very wise to listen to them.

Second, YHWH gives us a way to test for false prophets in Deuteronomy 13:1-5. Even if the prophet comes performing signs and miracles, if they tell you to serve other gods (meaning to obey gods who have different torah), then that prophet is false. Therefore, for prophets after Moses to be true, they couldn't contradict the Torah - which includes Deuteronomy 4:2 in that they couldn't alter the Torah.

Third, YHWH says in Jeremiah 6:19 "Hear, you earth: I am bringing disaster on this people, the fruit of their schemes, because they have 1) not listened to My words and 2) have rejected my Torah." I added those numbers because I want you to see that in YHWH's eyes the Torah is a special set of His words. If the Torah was the same as the rest of His words, He would have just said "they did not listen to My words". But, instead you see Him making a very clear distinction between the Torah and the rest of His words.

The prophets (not to belittle them) merely told Israel and Judah to repent, turn back to following Torah, and prophesied future events. In order to be authentic prophets per Deuteronomy 13:1-5, they couldn't have altered Torah. In short, the Torah is different from the rest of YHWH's words in that it's what all prophecy must agree with/being founded on and only by breaking Torah do we sin.

christopheralan88 said:

So, when YHWH instructs us not to add to or take away from the Torah (Deuteronomy 4:2), what does that mean?

In addition, Psalm 19:7 says that the Torah is perfect. The Hebrew word that translates to "perfect" is "tamiym". Tamiym also means "complete, whole, sound, entire, without blemish". In other words, the Torah is complete - it is not to be altered.

There is also something that needs to be cleared up: Yes, YHWH communicated through multiple prophets and not just Moses, who He used to communicate the Torah. But, not all of YHWH's words carry the same weight. Here are three examples:

First, only breaking the Torah is sinful (1 John 3:4). There is no mention of disobeying YHWH's words through other prophets as being sinful - although it would be very wise to listen to them.

Second, YHWH gives us a way to test for false prophets in Deuteronomy 13:1-5. Even if the prophet comes performing signs and miracles, if they tell you to serve other gods (meaning to obey gods who have different torah), then that prophet is false. Therefore, for prophets after Moses to be true, they couldn't contradict the Torah - which includes Deuteronomy 4:2 in that they couldn't alter the Torah.

Third, YHWH says in Jeremiah 6:19 "Hear, you earth: I am bringing disaster on this people, the fruit of their schemes, because they have 1) not listened to My words and 2) have rejected my Torah." I added those numbers because I want you to see that in YHWH's eyes the Torah is a special set of His words. If the Torah was the same as the rest of His words, He would have just said "they did not listen to My words". But, instead you see Him making a very clear distinction between the Torah and the rest of His words.

The prophets (not to belittle them) merely told Israel and Judah to repent, turn back to following Torah, and prophesied future events. In order to be authentic prophets per Deuteronomy 13:1-5, they couldn't have altered Torah. In short, the Torah is different from the rest of YHWH's words in that it's what all prophecy must agree with/being founded on and only by breaking Torah do we sin.

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I must be missing something. Why are you so concerned about altering Torah or that it is perfect or that breaking it is sin? We are discussing how Matthew 4:4 should have been translated. Which is better; TNK, Torah, or every word of God? Every word of God is clearly the best choice since it does not exclude any of YHWH's words whereas TNK excludes His NT words and Torah excludes His NT words as well as all OT words except those found in Torah.

This is a related question about the Jewish NT

Was the NT written in greek or Hebrew/aramaic??

Earliest manuscripts wer 150ad. I believe....
Looks like Mathew. hebrews and revelation was written in Hebrew.......

Why wouldnt the rest have been written in Hebrew...??
Corinth looks like it was led by a jewish rabbi and his assistant rabbi....crispus...acts 18:8

Also most of pauls churches in ephesus ...were led by Jews
james wrote to the 12 tribes....
Peter wrote to the dispertion...1 peter

gadar perets said:

I must be missing something. Why are you so concerned about altering Torah or that it is perfect or that breaking it is sin? We are discussing how Matthew 4:4 should have been translated. Which is better; TNK, Torah, or every word of God? Every word of God is clearly the best choice since it does not exclude any of YHWH's words whereas TNK excludes His NT words and Torah excludes His NT words as well as all OT words except those found in Torah.

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Ah I'm sorry I see how you could be confused by that. I originally said that Torah is the best translation of Matthew 4:4 as opposed to TNK or "words of God". I see in Matthew 4:4 that Yahshua is directly quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 as well as Deuteronomy 32:45-47 which are referring to the Torah.

I see other people arguing here that Yahshua is referring to all the words of God (Torah, TNK prophets, and NT prophets) bc they don't understand that the context of Deuteronomy 8 and 32 is the Torah. Also I'm afraid that they don't understand that the Torah cannot be altered and is what the prophets are founded on to be true. In other words, if the Torah is the most important of YHWH's words (as seems to be the case from my last post's examples) and the prophets must agree with the Torah to be considered valid (again also see my last post) then all prophets must be sharing the same message which is the Torah and so the proper translation of Matthew 4:4 is "Torah".

christopheralan88 said:

Ah I'm sorry I see how you could be confused by that. I originally said that Torah is the best translation of Matthew 4:4 as opposed to TNK or "words of God". I see in Matthew 4:4 that Yahshua is directly quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 as well as Deuteronomy 32:45-47 which are referring to the Torah.

I see other people arguing here that Yahshua is referring to all the words of God (Torah, TNK prophets, and NT prophets) bc they don't understand that the context of Deuteronomy 8 and 32 is the Torah. Also I'm afraid that they don't understand that the Torah cannot be altered and is what the prophets are founded on to be true. In other words, if the Torah is the most important of YHWH's words (as seems to be the case from my last post's examples) and the prophets must agree with the Torah to be considered valid (again also see my last post) then all prophets must be sharing the same message which is the Torah and so the proper translation of Matthew 4:4 is "Torah".

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Yeshua was not referring to Deuteronomy 32:45-47. He was quoting Deuteronomy 8:3. While 8:3 certainly refers to Torah, it does not exclude the prophets. Therefore, we should not assume YHWH meant ONLY Torah. If you say the proper translation of Matthew 4:4 is "Torah", then you must also be saying the proper translation of Deuteronomy 8:3 is "Torah". However, YHWH did not inspire "Torah" to be written there. He inspired "everything that proceeds out of the mouth of YHWH." It is dangerous to delete all those words and add "Torah" in their place (Deuteronomy 4:2).

gadar perets said:

Yeshua was not referring to Deuteronomy 32:45-47. He was quoting Deuteronomy 8:3. While 8:3 certainly refers to Torah, it does not exclude the prophets. Therefore, we should not assume YHWH meant ONLY Torah. If you say the proper translation of Matthew 4:4 is "Torah", then you must also be saying the proper translation of Deuteronomy 8:3 is "Torah". However, YHWH did not inspire "Torah" to be written there. He inspired "everything that proceeds out of the mouth of YHWH." It is dangerous to delete all those words and add "Torah" in their place (Deuteronomy 4:2).

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Deuternomy 32:45-47 is saying the same thing. He can directly quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 but the same thing is echoed in 32.

Context is everything. The context of "the words that proceed from the mouth of God" in Deuteronomy 8 is clearly the Torah. To ignore that clear context and inject our own definition of words is erroneous.

Lastly, as I said, the prophets, in order to be authentic, could not be altering the Torah. So even if you ignore the context of Deuteronomy 8, the prophets would be echoing the same message as Torah in order to be authentic prophets.

christopheralan88 said:

Deuternomy 32:45-47 is saying the same thing. He can directly quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 but the same thing is echoed in 32.

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Deuteronomy 32:45-47 says nothing about YHWH's words being our daily bread. Nor does it even imply that the words Moses gave came out of YHWH's mouth. Of course, we know they did, but if that was the only passage in Deuteronomy, we would not know they were YHWH's words. We would think they were Moses' words.

Context is everything. The context of "the words that proceed from the mouth of God" in Deuteronomy 8 is clearly the Torah. To ignore that clear context and inject our own definition of words is erroneous.

Lastly, as I said, the prophets, in order to be authentic, could not be altering the Torah. So even if you ignore the context of Deuteronomy 8, the prophets would be echoing the same message as Torah in order to be authentic prophets.

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I wrote, "While 8:3 certainly refers to Torah,...". Why are you saying I am ignoring the context? I know full well the context of Deuteronomy 8:3 is Torah. I also know the words that come out of YHWH's mouth consist of Torah AND MORE. I will not limit Him or verse 3.

LivingWitness said:

I just purchased the Jewish New Testament and Commentary by David Stern.
It arrived a couple of days ago.
Who here has read this? What aer your thoughts, opinions, and input on this version.
Raygn

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It isn't bad mostly, but he does tend to twist scripture to his theology, instead of aligning his theology to scripture.

gadar perets said:

Deuteronomy 32:45-47 says nothing about YHWH's words being our daily bread. Nor does it even imply that the words Moses gave came out of YHWH's mouth. Of course, we know they did, but if that was the only passage in Deuteronomy, we would not know they were YHWH's words. We would think they were Moses' words.


I wrote, "While 8:3 certainly refers to Torah,...". Why are you saying I am ignoring the context? I know full well the context of Deuteronomy 8:3 is Torah. I also know the words that come out of YHWH's mouth consist of Torah AND MORE. I will not limit Him or verse 3.

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Deuteronomy is a summary of the entire Torah. Some people call it the Reader's Digest version of the Torah. Deuteronomy 32:45-47 is the ending of that summary. So, when Moses says in verse 46 "Set your hearts on all the words which I testify among you today, which you shall command your children to be careful to observe—all the words of this Torah" he's saying "I just finished summarizing the Torah to you all, be sure to remember and carefully obey it all. And then in verse 47 he says "For it is not a futile thing for you, because it is your life, and by this word you shall prolong your days", which essentially means "the Torah is not a waste of your time, it is your life and how you prolong your life". It's the same message as Deuteronomy 8:3.

Ah, sorry, I missed where you acknowledged 8:3 refers to the Torah. But, do you agree that in order for the prophets to be authentic, they cannot alter Torah (Deuteronomy 13:1-5)?

What I'm essentially trying to get at is that the Christian church is not learned and rooted in Torah (2 Peter 3:15-17) so they think that the OT prophets and especially the NT writers altered Torah and so they the words of God that Yahshua refers to in Matthew 4:4 are different from Torah. That cannot be the case - in order to be authentic, all prophets must be in accordance with Torah (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and Deuteronomy 4:2).

christopheralan88 said:

Ah, sorry, I missed where you acknowledged 8:3 refers to the Torah. But, do you agree that in order for the prophets to be authentic, they cannot alter Torah (Deuteronomy 13:1-5)?

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Yes. BTW, I am a Torah keeper and understand its importance and influence in our lives.

What I'm essentially trying to get at is that the Christian church is not learned and rooted in Torah (2 Peter 3:15-17) so they think that the OT prophets and especially the NT writers altered Torah and so they the words of God that Yahshua refers to in Matthew 4:4 are different from Torah. That cannot be the case - in order to be authentic, all prophets must be in accordance with Torah (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and Deuteronomy 4:2).

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I totally agree. What I am essentially trying to get at is that Deuteronomy 8:3 is not only teaching us the importance of Torah as our daily food, but even those words that were not recorded as part of Torah. Yeshua, for example, spoke the "words of God" (John 12:49), but much of what he spoke is not part of Torah, ie; many of his parables. They are our daily bread as well.

gadar perets said:

Yes. BTW, I am a Torah keeper and understand its importance and influence in our lives.


I totally agree. What I am essentially trying to get at is that Deuteronomy 8:3 is not only teaching us the importance of Torah as our daily food, but even those words that were not recorded as part of Torah. Yeshua, for example, spoke the "words of God" (John 12:49), but much of what he spoke is not part of Torah, ie; many of his parables. They are our daily bread as well.

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gadar perets said:

Yes. BTW, I am a Torah keeper and understand its importance and influence in our lives.


I totally agree. What I am essentially trying to get at is that Deuteronomy 8:3 is not only teaching us the importance of Torah as our daily food, but even those words that were not recorded as part of Torah. Yeshua, for example, spoke the "words of God" (John 12:49), but much of what he spoke is not part of Torah, ie; many of his parables. They are our daily bread as well.

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I think I see where you're coming from. But, I still think we should not part from the context of Deuteronomy 8:3. If this thread is solely about the correct translation of Matthew 4:4 and Yahshua is quoting at least Deuteronomy 8:3 and 8:3's context is the Torah, then the best translation for Mathew 4:4 is "Torah".

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree .

christopheralan88 said:

I think I see where you're coming from. But, I still think we should not part from the context of Deuteronomy 8:3. If this thread is solely about the correct translation of Matthew 4:4 and Yahshua is quoting at least Deuteronomy 8:3 and 8:3's context is the Torah, then the best translation for Mathew 4:4 is "Torah".

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree .

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This thread is about the Jewish NT by Sterns and our opinions of it. Matthew 4:4 is just one verse where Stern's paraphrase falls short by using "TNK" in place of "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Using "Torah" in that verse would not be a "translation", but a paraphrase.

gadar perets said:

This thread is about the Jewish NT by Sterns and our opinions of it. Matthew 4:4 is just one verse where Stern's paraphrase falls short by using "TNK" in place of "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Using "Torah" in that verse would not be a "translation", but a paraphrase.

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I understand but therein lies the difference in our opinions. The context of what Yahshua is quoting there is the Torah per Deut 8:3. So I think it's as simple as just transplanting what Deut 8:3 is talking about (Torah) and putting it in Matthew 4:4.

But we're going in circles now...like I said agree to disagree