The Eternality of Hell

Edmond Smith · May 26, 2017

claninja said:
The explanation you gave does not help answer the question. If WE (believers) have immortal souls that go directly to God when we die, why is there hope in the resurrection?

Paul could have just stated our spirit goes directly to heaven when we die. If he would have stated it that way, I would say there is hope in that. But he didn't state it that way. He said there is hope in the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:44-46
"So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual."

When our physical body dies (what is sown is perishable), It will be resurrected one day (raised imperishable).

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

The dead WILL be raised imperishable and we shall be CHANGED. Changed from what? Mortality to immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:53-54
For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality,
then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is thy victory?
O death, where is thy sting?”

Our mortal nature must put on Immortality. It is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical.

Absolutely agree with you.
I really wish Paul would have just said. "Hey when you die, and your Born Again. You go to Heaven."

Unfortunately, The people in Corinth had to have it spelled out for them. They asked almost the same question in 1 Corinthains 15:35:
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body to they come?

Not quite your wording I know. But Paul continues with the explanation.
First He reviews the differentiations within the created order ( vv. 35-41). Paul turns to the differentiations of the resurrected body. The body changes from a perishable body (a natural body) to a glorious imperishable body ( a spiritual body...you will also hear it called the glorified body), though one that has physical characteristics. As Christ was in Luke 24: 36-39:
This happens when Christ appears to the Disciples. He appears to them in a locked room and they are pretty shook up. As I would have been also.

36. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, "Peace be unto you."
37. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. (ghost)
38. And he said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? (showing again, how God knows our thoughts and intentions)
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have.

And to further make it easier for them. the scripture continues with Him asking for a piece of meat and Him eating it.

Then you have the story of Thomas...mistakenly called doubting Thomas.

John 20:27-28 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

The scriptures also tells us that we will be as He was when he resurrected.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 John 3:3 explains what happens to us because of this hope.

We are not fully filled in on exactly everything that will happen to us. We're not given that information. We only have what happened to Christ and know that what happened to Him, will also happen to us in the resurrection of our earthly bodies to our glorified or spiritual bodies.

It's an awesome thought and that hope gives me great joy in knowing my God. That hope helps me through those times of trials and dry spells we all go through. When things get tough. And they do and will. I lean on Him, I think of the hope of the resurrection. That this is not my home. But to be with my Lord and Savior in the flesh not just in Spirit. Gives me strength.

Edmond Smith · May 26, 2017

claninja said:
The issue I have with this, is that David does not say he will see his son in heaven. He says he shall go to him. This could mean ascend to heaven or it could be go to the grave.

Peter confirms that David did not ascend into heaven in Acts 2:29-34
“Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he (Christ) was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his (Christ) flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says,
‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
35 till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet.’

This doesn't mean that His spirit isn't with the Lord. It means that His body hadn't ascended.

The word ascended used here is:

ἀναβαίνω anabaínō, an-ab-ah'-ee-no

from G303 and the base of G939; to go up (literally or figuratively):—arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

verb

This is why Peter emphatically reminds the people to whom He is preaching to that David isn't the one to be looking to for kingship. It was Christ.
This whole sermon is about the Power of Christ and that He is the messiah. Peter used David as an example that his body is still in the grave. It hadn't ascended to Heaven yet. David soul is there, of course. Remember David even with all His mistakes what still considered closest to the Heart of God.
Peter uses this, because of what David says in Psalms 110:1 and remembering, probably, our Lord's application of it as recorded in Mt 22:42-45, which he had doubtless heard.

So, David is with the Lord right now. And when the resurrection comes...i.e. the rapture...or even the great white throne judgment day. His body will met with Him and become glorified. Just as Christ's did.

Edmond Smith · May 26, 2017

claninja said:
The issue I have with this, is that David does not say he will see his son in heaven. He says he shall go to him. This could mean ascend to heaven or it could be go to the grave.

Peter confirms that David did not ascend into heaven in Acts 2:29-34
“Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he (Christ) was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his (Christ) flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says,
‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
35 till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet.’

This doesn't mean that His spirit isn't with the Lord. It means that His body hadn't ascended.

The word ascended used here is:

ἀναβαίνω anabaínō, an-ab-ah'-ee-no

from G303 and the base of G939; to go up (literally or figuratively):—arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

verb

This is why Peter emphatically reminds the people to whom He is preaching to that David isn't the one to be looking to for kingship. It was Christ.
This whole sermon is about the Power of Christ and that He is the messiah. Peter used David as an example that his body is still in the grave. It hadn't ascended to Heaven yet. David soul is there, of course. Remember David even with all His mistakes what still considered closest to the Heart of God.
Peter uses this, because of what David says in Psalms 110:1 and remembering, probably, our Lord's application of it as recorded in Mt 22:42-45, which he had doubtless heard.

So, David is with the Lord right now. And when the resurrection comes...i.e. the rapture...or even the great white throne judgment day. His body will met with Him and become glorified. Just as Christ's did.

Edmond Smith · May 26, 2017

claninja said:
God would not be fair in saving, if we all deserve hell. The fair thing to do would be to let us all burn.
So God is not fair.

No, He is extremely fair. You can live your life as you choose. He doesn't make you serve Him. He's not a dictator. Nor is He a puppeteer, tying strings to us to make us love Him.

He loved us first. He knows us from conception. David says He stitched us together with the book of life before we were even born. God loves His creation. He wouldn't have created it for other reason except to Love it. It was his intent for us to live in His presence from the beginning. But sin stepped in. it had already existed. Satan or at the time Lucifer sinned against God with His pride and vanity. And because God created something everlasting, something beautiful, something that can show who He is and what he expects of us. Satan wants the exact opposite. Satan is still trying to be God. He still believes He can over come God and conquer him and he uses man. He is a liar and the father of all liars. He goes about to and fro upon the earth seeking to kill, steal and control our souls. He isn't winning though. God is still Sovereign. His will trumps over Satan and God's will is for all men to be saved.
Satan messed up...you see, he can't tell the future, nor read our minds, nor can he even touch us without explicit instructions or approval from God. He thought, Satan, that is. That if He could turn man against God, then He'd win. But what He didn't count on...was the Cross. The shedding of The blood of Christ and His grace. Conquered not only Death, but Hell and the grave.
Yes, God is extremely fair. More so than words can be written, sung or preached about how fair He is.
He could have just let us burn. But because He loved us First. He sent His Son.

Bible Highlighter · May 26, 2017

Edmond Smith said:
We know adultery is wrong, is because of the destruction of the family, the body and the soul. There has never been a good outcome from and adulteress affair of any sort. Lust of the flesh and adultery lead to unwed motherhood, abortion and children growing up without fathers and mothers in the home. And Yes, also because and most importantly you break the 7th commandment of God. Thou shalt not commit adultery. You also go against what Christ said here:

Matthew 5:27, 28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath commited adultery with her already in his heart.

So do you? Do you look a women to lust after her? If so, then you are an adulterer. In God's eyes. Because He not only knows what you do. He knows what you intend to do and what's in your heart.

Stealing, well it hurts those who are stole from. You work hard for what you have and then to have someone come in and take it from you because he or she thinks they should have it is just plain wrong.

And then most importantly you disobey God again. You break the eighth commandment. "Thou shalt not steal.
So have you stolen something, doesn't matter the value, or have you downloaded music or programs to your computer without paying for them...i.e. cracked versions. That's theft. Do you goof off at work when you should be working? That's theft also. Your stealing from your employers, that time they are paying you for work. Not to goof off, or stand around discussing things with your peers.
If you steal, what are you called? Your called a thief.

Your right God is good. But He is also righteous, merciful, and gracious. But He is something else also...He is just. You see, when you break God's commands. It's called transgressions and these transgressions are called sin. Because you break His Laws that He has laid upon all our hearts. We know when we do things wrongly, because our conscience bothers us and pricks our heart that these things are morally wrong. You see, we know this because the word conscience is a compound word. Meaning Con = with; science = knowledge. We do the things we do with the knowledge of them being right or wrong.
When you sin, you sin directly against God. Not man. Now, God is good, but He hates sin. Take what every you despise the most and you'll never despise it as much as God hates sin. He hates sin because; sin separate's us from Him.
Now if you've commited adultery, which I'm assuming you have because you even question if it's wrong or not. And If you have stolen anything, which again I assume because you question whether or not if it's wrong. Then your a Adulterer and a Thief. These sins can and will take you to Hell. Unless you do one thing.

Repent. And in your repentance you place your trust in Christ. Knowing Jesus is righteous and will save you. But you see, where your mistaken on the on the eternal torture is this. A small example might make it easier.

If I lie to my son about something, there's not much he can do to me about it if he found out about the lie. He could be made at me, but punishment would pretty much be moot.
Now If I tell the same lie to my wife, then she could make me sleep on the couch or scold me for telling her the lie.
If I lie to a police officer, he could give me a ticket or even arrest me. For impeding an investigation.
If I lie to a judge, I could go to jail or prison for purgery.
If I lie to the President of the United States about something sensitive, then I could be charged with Treason and either be jailed or shot.

You see, all I done is tell a lie. The difference is the limit of the punishment that can be handed out depending on who I lie to. Well, when you lie to God, and that's what you do when you lie because all sin is against Him. Then you will be punished for eternity. Because He is an eternal God. If you lie to the Holy Ghost, He can and has killed people for it.

So, sin is a serious offence to God and He will punish those who don't repent and place their trust in Christ. Who do you think he is telling to repent? It can't be those who already serve Him, because they already have.

So again, you question God and His authority. He is Sovereign and it's will for all men to be saved. But all won't. Many are to prideful and think their way is right and ignore His truths. Which is given by His Word.

The real world scenario, Is that Christ died on the cross, He took our sins, yet while we sinned and He took them to the cross to face the wrath of God, which we should have taken and He died so that we might be saved. That's the real world scenario.

The point I made about moral laws of God within His Word was to show you that you can explain them in such a way that makes sense (using the real world as your guide and reference). But you really still have not done that with ECT. Saying that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world so as to offer man the free gift of salvation does not mean that God is giving man a license to sin (if that is what you are suggesting). That would be immoral of God to give us grace so that we can just remain in our sins and be no different than the world. Basic morality or the goodness of God teaches us that we know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do. Jesus says you will know a good tree from a bad tree by their fruit (i.e. their deeds).

Also, a Christian stumbling on his road to recovery in overcoming sin or a Christian who generally walks uprightly most days is supposed to be the Christian life (According to God's Word). Holiness is God's will for a believer's life (1 Thessalonians 4:3). It is not normal in God's eyes for a Christian to live in sin 24/7 and say they can just have a belief on Jesus and they are forgiven (If that is what you are suggesting). I sure hope that is not what you are suggesting. God is good; He is not evil. For many today justify sin. But it doesn't work like that.

Jesus paying the price for mankind's sins was not to get man off the hook for his sin so that man can make excuses to sin and still be saved. That would be a contradiction and a violation of God's goodness. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). This would be the works of the devil (sin) within a believer's life. For we are told to "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh" (Romans 13:14).

Anyways, when I say that you cannot make a real world example out of ECT, I am saying that you cannot make a parable out of it like Jesus made parables or real world examples so as to express spiritual truth. Even the Canaanite woman had made a parable or real world example (expounding upon Christ's parable) and Jesus commended her faith for it. She said, "even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table."

So go ahead. Let's see you do that.
Let's see a real world every day example of how it is good and just to roast people alive for long periods of time for a finite amount of crimes committed.

In other words, the God of ECT is sort of like a dictator who tortures a family in the most horrible way possible for the rest of their lives all because they lied within the dictator's country.

You are going to have to show me a real world example in every day situation as to how punishing somebody waaaay beyond what the crime calls for in the most horrible way possible can be just, fair, and good. But we both know you cannot do that.

Also, does God seem petty enough not to forgive?
Does not God teach us to forgive?
Remember, Jesus said if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven.
You act like God all of a sudden has a split personality whereby He cannot forgive.

Do you remember when Jesus said to the Father the following?

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).

Yes, there is justice, but I really do not see how it is fair and good and just to punish a person waaaaaay beyond what the crime calls for.
Would you think it is fair to get the death penalty for J walking?
Come on now.

Luke 12:47-48 gives us a clear picture of what fair justice is like.

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48).

But such a punishment mentioned above within this passage should not exist in God's Word if God was into giving all the wicked a blanket wide punishment of never ending torture in flames for all eternity. It would be pointless to be beat some with few stripes and another with many stripes if all are just going to be beaten with endless stripes.

...

claninja · May 27, 2017

No need to apologize. I am in the same boat. There are many different views of the transition of the old covenant to new covenant. I definitely agree that there is an overlap, I view it as Christ initiated the new covenant and the old covenant officially ended in 70AD.

You state "there are 2 end of the ages spoke by Christ". I cannot seem to find that in the scripture. Would you be able to point this out for me?

claninja · May 27, 2017

Edmond Smith said:
from a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness:—immortality.

feminine noun

Seems to mean that God, in his own nature, enjoys a perfect and certain exemption from death. Creatures have immortality only as they derive it from him, and of course are dependent on him for it. He has it by his very nature, and it is in his case underived, and he cannot be deprived of it. It is one of the essential attributes of his being, that he will always exist, and that death cannot reach him.

Please remind me of which scripture I used. I know I did, but it was many. The one you have a question on the "they". So I can answer correctly.

Sorry I'm not sure where "they" came from. That's why I asked.

This is where I would disagree. I would say creatures don't inherently have immortality, it can only be received as a gift.
What is first mortal must put on immortality.

I like to think that in these debates, in the end when we get to be with Christ, its not which was of us was more right, but how wrong each of us was

None the less, I still enjoy these conversations, as I will never learn more if I only look at the issue from one perspective.

Edmond Smith said:
Thank you. I'm not sure that means the breath of Life means the same the breath God breathed into Adam.

רוּחַ rûwach, roo'-akh

from H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):—air, anger, blast, breath, × cool, courage, mind, × quarter, × side, spirit(-ual), tempest, × vain, (whirl-) wind(-y).

This is the breath of life that is quoted in Genesis 7:15

נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw'

from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

feminine noun

This is the breath of life that is quoted in Genesis 2:7

Not trying to be glib or anything. I'm desperately trying to learn my Hebrew, and not doing so well...
Any time I get a chance I do the comparison for my learning also. Because I didn't know there was a difference hear either.

Not problem with glibbing. I agree with you. Comparing uses is the best way to understand the author.

So here is a better spot were the use breath of life that can compare with Genesis 2:7

Genesis 7:22 (YLT)
21 and expire doth all flesh that is moving on the earth, among fowl, and among cattle, and among beasts, and among all the teeming things which are teeming on the earth, and all mankind;
22 all in whose nostrils [is] breath of a living spirit -- of all that [is] in the dry land -- have died.

5397 [e] niš-maṯ- נִשְׁמַת־ the breath Noun
7307 [e] rū-aḥ ר֨וּחַ of the spirit Noun
2416 [e] ḥay-yîm חַיִּ֜ים of life Adj

Edmond Smith · May 27, 2017

claninja said:
No need to apologize. I am in the same boat. There are many different views of the transition of the old covenant to new covenant. I definitely agree that there is an overlap, I view it as Christ initiated the new covenant and the old covenant officially ended in 70AD.

You state "there are 2 end of the ages spoke by Christ". I cannot seem to find that in the scripture. Would you be able to point this out for me?

This one is about the final age. The one we are in now. The KJV uses the end of the world. Means same thing.
You and I already agree on the former we spoke about.
And if you notice there in v.40 also, that the angels collect the tares (wicked ones) and cast them into the fire. Remember this is a parable and Christ equates tares to people. Verse 42, explains what happens to the tares.
Christ said this...not me.

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Edmond Smith · May 27, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The point I made about moral laws of God within His Word was to show you that you can explain them in such a way that makes sense (using the real world as your guide and reference). But you really still have not done that with ECT. Saying that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world so as to offer man the free gift of salvation does not mean that God is giving man a license to sin (if that is what you are suggesting).

I agree and never suggested it.

That would be immoral of God to give us grace so that we can just remain in our sins and be no different than the world.

It wouldn't just be immoral...it wouldn't be the God of the Bible.

Basic morality or the goodness of God teaches us that we know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do. Jesus says you will know a good tree from a bad tree by their fruit (i.e. their deeds).

I agree with your premise. But there are no good guys...No one is good, not one.

Psalm 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Also, a Christian stumbling on his road to recovery in overcoming sin or a Christian who generally walks uprightly most days is supposed to be the Christian life (According to God's Word).

We are sinners saved by grace. God sanctifies us daily, but the reading of His Word and prayer. We are human and therefore in a sinful nature. But the blood of Christ has washed us and made us clean of sin. Our sins to never be remembered....Understand this quite clearly.

Holiness is God's will for a believer's life (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

I think you meant this:

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

But your right, we should do this also:

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

It is not normal in God's eyes for a Christian to live in sin 24/7 and say they can just have a belief on Jesus and they are forgiven (If that is what you are suggesting).

You can't live in sin continually and be a true Son of God. If you live in sin. He doesn't abide with you or you with him. Your called a liar or even saying you are living with him.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Never suggest it.

I sure hope that is not what you are suggesting. God is good; He is not evil. For many today justify sin. But it doesn't work like that.

Did you read the post? Never in there do I even suggest any of this.

Jesus paying the price for mankind's sins was not to get man off the hook for his sin so that man can make excuses to sin and still be saved.

Again, did you read the post? Never said this either.

That would be a contradiction and a violation of God's goodness. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).

Yep.

This would be the works of the devil (sin) within a believer's life. For we are told to "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh" (Romans 13:14).

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Yep.

Anyways, when I say that you cannot make a real world example out of ECT, I am saying that you cannot make a parable out of it like Jesus made parables or real world examples so as to express spiritual truth. Even the Canaanite woman had made a parable or real world example (expounding upon Christ's parable) and Jesus commended her faith for it. She said, "even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table."

I'm assuming you mean, you can make a real world example. Because first you say you can't, then you give the example of the Canaanite woman doing it. Confusing paragraph here.

So go ahead. Let's see you do that. Let's see a real world every day example of how it is good and just to roast people alive for long periods of time for a finite amount of crimes committed.

Here's one:

Some of you are here today because you have allegedly violated man’s law. The Bible alleges that
both you and I have violated God’s Law; that is, the Ten Commandments. So what I’m going to
do is put you on the stand, just for a few moments, and examine you under the light of that
Law. You can make the determination of your innocence or your guilt, and what your eternal destiny
will be, whether it be a place called Heaven or a place called Hell. So this is a very important issue
and I’d be grateful for your attention.
Let’s begin with the Ninth Commandment, “You shall not bear false witness.”
1 Have you ever told a lie? Are you innocent or guilty of breaking that
Commandment? Or the Eighth, “You shall not steal.”2 Have you ever stolen
something, irrespective of its value? Or the Third Commandment, “You shall
not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.”3 Have you ever used God’s
name as a cussword to express disgust—something called blasphemy? Or the
Seventh Commandment, “You shall not commit adultery.”4 But, guys, listen
to what Jesus said of that Commandment. He said, “But I say to you, whoever
looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with
her in his heart.”5 Have you ever done that? You say, “Man, have I ever done
that? That’s all I ever do. I’m guilty of that one.” In fact, you say, “You know
I’m guilty of breaking those four Commandments.”Well, if that’s true, on the
Day of Judgment, God will see you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer
at heart—very serious crimes in His sight. And the Bible makes it very clear
your eternal destiny will not be Heaven, but a place called Hell. The Scriptures warn, “All liars will
have their part in the lake of fire.”6 No thief, no adulterer, no fornicator (those who’ve had sex out of
marriage) will inherit the Kingdom of God.7
You say, “You don’t have to worry about me. I’ll be fine. I won’t end up in Hell, because I confessed
my sins to God. I tell Him I’m sorry.” Folks, that won’t help you on the Day of Judgment.
That’s like saying to the judge today,“Hey, Judge, I confess I committed the crime. Sorry.”He’d probably
say, “So you’re confessing your guilt. You should be sorry. You’ve done wrong.”
No, you need someone who can pay your fine. And, folks, that’s what God did for you and I two
thousand years ago. The Bible says He sent forth His Son, made of a woman,8 born of a virgin.9 Do
you know what that means? That means that Jesus of Nazareth was different than you and I. He was
morally perfect. He was without sin, and this perfect Man gave His perfect life as a perfect sacrifice
for the sin of the world.
9
Springboards for Budding Preachers
1 Exodus 20:16
2 Exodus 20:15
3 Exodus 20:7
4 Exodus 20:14
5 Matthew 5:27,28
6 Revelation 21:8
7 See 1 Corinthians 6:9.
8 See Galatians 4:4.
9 Matthew 1:23

Here's another:

I’ve come to realize that we live in a country that is filled with distraction from that which is most
important. Think about it; think about how lightly we look at the reality of death.We joke about
it, we have various sayings in relation to it like, “Oh, man, I feel like I’m going to die!” Or, “I’m
going to kill you!” or things of that sort.We make light of it; we joke about it because it’s almost
overwhelming to really focus on. And you know there’s a good correlation to that.
We’re sitting here right now, you look at the sky—we don’t see a cloud, the wind is hardly blowing.
But on the other side of the country, connected to the same piece of land right now is a hurricane
that is absolutely devastating people. There are ten thousand people in one location in that
dome there in Louisiana. There are people hiding in their attics right now, winds tearing roofs off
their houses. It’s devastating, but the furthest thing from our mind. You sit here and you look
around, and it’s so calm and peaceful and quiet.Who would think that there’s a storm connected to
this land mass? Friends, that’s so similar to what’s taking place in the eternal realm. You know that
you and I are literally on the brink of eternity, and many of you are right now on the brink of God’s
wrath and judgment for all eternity. I don’t enjoy talking about Hell. I don’t do it because it’s fun. If it
were up to me Hell wouldn’t exist, but it’s not up to me. Hell is a real place and we’re all in danger of
it, if we don’t have the salvation that God has provided through His Son.

In other words, the God of ECT is sort of like a dictator who tortures a family in the most horrible way possible for the rest of their lives all because they lied within the dictator's country.

Doesn't matter where your at. All know of God, many even in dictatorships know there is a God and many of them Worship Him in truth in secret because of the dictatorship. Many of them have gone home to be with the Lord, because they knew they ought not lie and didn't. They defended their faith and they lived it to the glorious end. It may be bitter for you. But for them, they are now in the throne room of Heaven, waiting for the Day of Vengeance that God is going to place on those who slaughtered His people.
So you think those who have committed these heinous crimes against Men, Women and Children should just die and receive a hand slap? Tell you what, pack up your stuff, go to one of the secret churches and let me see you say what your saying now to them. You know what they'll do...nothing...they will love you and pray for you that you see God in who He really is and that you have a change of heart. I know people who have gone to these country's and have heard their testimony. God is awesome in His Love, power and mercy. He will not in any way let the guilty go free. Not going to happen.

You are going to have to show me a real world example in every day situation as to how punishing somebody waaaay beyond what the crime calls for in the most horrible way possible can be just, fair, and good. But we both know you cannot do that.

Sure I can.
If you lie to your child..if you have one..there's not much that child can do to you, right?
If you lie to your wife, well, she could put you on the couch for the night.
If you lie to your boss, He'll most likely fire you.
If you lie to a police officer, he can arrest you for impeding.
If you lie to a Judge, you will go to jail for purgery.
If you lie to the president of the united states, you could be tried for treason, imprisoned or even shot.

You notice here, all you've done is lie. But the punishment fits the crime, depending on who you lied to. Child=nothing, wife=couch, boss=fired, Police=arrested, Judge=jail, President=Prison or shot.
Depending on who you lied to would dictate the type and amount of punishment you would receive.

Well, when you lie, you sin and when you sin, you sin against God. He hates sin, He hates the wicked soul all the day long. He is an eternal God, He is a righteous and Holy God. He is a just God. Just as He will punish those who slaughter His children for His names sake. He will also punish those who sin against Him, for telling a lie.
There will be degrees of punishment during the day of wrath. One “trivial” sin makes us guilty of the whole law and liable to eternal torment (James 2:10). Yet some acts are worse than others and deserve harsher punishment (Num. 35:9–29). As bad as Sodom was, her sentence will be lighter on Judgment Day than Bethsaida’s because Sodom never saw Jesus (Matt. 11:20–24). The sinner who never hears of Christ will go to hell, yet his pain will be less intense than those who hear the Gospel each Sunday and refuse to repent.

Also, does God seem petty enough not to forgive?

Not all will be, because they don't repent. Nor do they come to Him with a contrite spirit and a broken heart. They come because someone told them what to say. They come because they want to impress the people around them. They come because they felt a tingle from a song, but never feel the true conviction of the Holy Spirit in their life.
Many will come to the end saying Lord, Lord.

We live in the United States of America, which is considered by the whole world as being a
“Christian nation.”We’re as much a Christian nation in the eyes of the world as Saudi
Arabia is a Muslim nation. And there’s a bit of a fear in that, because when that happens
to a society, everyone becomes in a sense convinced of the fact that they are a genuine Christian,
according to the definition that Jesus Christ gave. But there’s a passage of Scripture that has really
struck a chord of sobriety in my own heart. It’s Matthew 7:21–23. Jesus said,“Many will say to Me on
that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, done
many wonders in Your name?’He said, “And then I will say to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from
Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”
In other words, what Jesus is saying is that there will be a group of people who will have lived
their lives on earth, the whole time having thought that they were genuinely Christians, but in the
end they will die realizing that God never even knew them. I mean, that’s really sobering. The reason
for that is because many of us think that what we do on the outside in terms of Christian rituals, and
duties, and obligations—that genuinely makes us a Christian. But that’s not the case.
If you and I go down right now to the local Oscar Mayer pig farm, and we pick up a nice little
pig—we take it home, stick it in our bathtub, pull out the Epi-lady and the Bic razor, shave it down,
pour gallons of perfume and cologne on this little pig, take it to the local tuxedo shop, get it a custom made pig tuxedo with a bowtie, a top hat, the whole deal—take it to get it some reconstructive plastic surgery, take it to the dentist, and get it some nice dentures made. Then we take this pig home, we put it in front of a banquet table, we fill this table with all the greatest delicacies you can imagine.We invite our guests of honor.
Let me ask you a question: When you let that pig go, what’s the first thing that that pig will do?
Is it going to be concerned about being adorned with the products of fluff? The first thing that pig is
going to do if you give it a chance is it’s going to run right back to the pigpen. The reason for that is
because it’s a pig at heart. It doesn’t matter what you do to its outside. It doesn’t matter how you
change it and reconstruct its face and make it look like a person—it’s a pig at heart. And that’s kind
of what it’s like with many of us who are trying to live the Christian life, but who haven’t had a
change of heart. It doesn’t matter how much we sit in church, how much we pray, how much we try
to look like a Christian—until our heart has been changed, it doesn’t make a difference.We’re going
to always go right back to the pigpen because that’s where our heart is.

Is that real world enough for you?

Does not God teach us to forgive?

Yes, he does. And so does God, before death. After death. If you haven't had that real change of Heart of being Born Again. You had your chance, then you don't.

Remember, Jesus said if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven.

True

You act like God all of a sudden has a split personality whereby He cannot forgive.

Answered.

Do you remember when Jesus said to the Father the following?

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).

Yep, He was showing us to forgive those who do harm to us. Not to fear them, but to fear the one who can send us to hell.

Yes, there is justice, but I really do not see how it is fair and good and just to punish a person waaaaaay beyond what the crime calls for.
Would you think it is fair to get the death penalty for J walking?
Come on now.[

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But the natural man - That is, every man who hath not the Spirit; who has no other way of obtaining knowledge, but by his senses and natural understanding. Receiveth not - Does not understand or conceive. The things of the Spirit - The things revealed by the Spirit of God, whether relating to his nature or his kingdom. For they are foolishness to him - He is so far from understanding, that he utterly despises, them Neither can he know them - As he has not the will, so neither has he the power. Because they are spiritually discerned - They can only be discerned by the aid of that Spirit, and by those spiritual senses, which he has not.

Luke 12:47-48 gives us a clear picture of what fair justice is like.

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Which knew his lord's will. Who knew what his master wished him to do. He that knows what God commands and requires.

Many stripes. Shall be severely and justly punished. They who have many privileges, who are often warned, who have the gospel, and do not repent and believe, shall be far more severely punished than others. They who are early taught in Sunday-schools, or by pious parents, or in other ways, and who grow up in sin and impenitence, will have much more to answer for than those who have no such privileges.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48).

Verse 48. Few stripes. The Jews never inflicted more than forty stripes for one offence, De 25:3. For smaller offences they inflicted only four, five, six, &c., according to the nature of the crime. In allusion to this, our Lord says that he that knew not -- that is, he who had comparatively little knowledge--would suffer a punishment proportionally light. He refers, doubtless, to those who have fewer opportunities, smaller gifts, or fewer teachers.
Much is given. They who have much committed to their disposal, as stewards, &c. See the parable of the talents in Mt 25:14-30. Cmt. on Mt 25:14, also Mt 25:15-30.

This is fair for earthly punishment. But this isn't speaking of judgement day. It's speaking about those who know the truth and don't live it accordingly and go to hell, they will receive a greater torment than those who, have never heard of Christ or have very little knowledge of Him, And die in their sins. I've already stated, there may be different levels of punishment in Hell. Yet there is still punishment, for eternity.

But such a punishment mentioned above within this passage should not exist in God's Word if God was into giving all the wicked a blanket wide punishment of never ending torture in flames for all eternity. It would be pointless to be beat some with few stripes and another with many stripes if all are just going to be beaten with endless stripes.

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Edmond Smith · May 27, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The point I made about moral laws of God within His Word was to show you that you can explain them in such a way that makes sense (using the real world as your guide and reference). But you really still have not done that with ECT. Saying that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world so as to offer man the free gift of salvation does not mean that God is giving man a license to sin (if that is what you are suggesting).

I agree and never suggested it.

That would be immoral of God to give us grace so that we can just remain in our sins and be no different than the world.

It wouldn't just be immoral...it wouldn't be the God of the Bible.

Basic morality or the goodness of God teaches us that we know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do. Jesus says you will know a good tree from a bad tree by their fruit (i.e. their deeds).

I agree with your premise. But there are no good guys...No one is good, not one.

Psalm 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Also, a Christian stumbling on his road to recovery in overcoming sin or a Christian who generally walks uprightly most days is supposed to be the Christian life (According to God's Word).

We are sinners saved by grace. God sanctifies us daily, but the reading of His Word and prayer. We are human and therefore in a sinful nature. But the blood of Christ has washed us and made us clean of sin. Our sins to never be remembered....Understand this quite clearly. We who are Born Again are sinners saved by grace. No one can say they never sin.

Holiness is God's will for a believer's life (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

I think you meant this:

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

But your right, we should do this also:

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

It is not normal in God's eyes for a Christian to live in sin 24/7 and say they can just have a belief on Jesus and they are forgiven (If that is what you are suggesting).

You can't live in sin continually and be a true Son of God. If you live in sin. He doesn't abide within you or you with him. Your called a liar for even saying you are living with him while living in sin.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Never suggest it.

I sure hope that is not what you are suggesting. God is good; He is not evil. For many today justify sin. But it doesn't work like that.

Did you read the post? Never in there do I even suggest any of this.

Jesus paying the price for mankind's sins was not to get man off the hook for his sin so that man can make excuses to sin and still be saved.

Again, did you read the post? Never said this either.

That would be a contradiction and a violation of God's goodness. Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).

Yep.

This would be the works of the devil (sin) within a believer's life. For we are told to "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh" (Romans 13:14).

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Yep.

Anyways, when I say that you cannot make a real world example out of ECT, I am saying that you cannot make a parable out of it like Jesus made parables or real world examples so as to express spiritual truth. Even the Canaanite woman had made a parable or real world example (expounding upon Christ's parable) and Jesus commended her faith for it. She said, "even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table."

I'm assuming you mean, you can make a real world example. Because first you say you can't, then you give the example of the Canaanite woman doing it. Confusing paragraph here.

So go ahead. Let's see you do that. Let's see a real world every day example of how it is good and just to roast people alive for long periods of time for a finite amount of crimes committed.

Here's one:

Some of you are here today because you have allegedly violated man’s law. The Bible alleges that
both you and I have violated God’s Law; that is, the Ten Commandments. So what I’m going to
do is put you on the stand, just for a few moments, and examine you under the light of that
Law. You can make the determination of your innocence or your guilt, and what your eternal destiny
will be, whether it be a place called Heaven or a place called Hell. So this is a very important issue
and I’d be grateful for your attention.
Let’s begin with the Ninth Commandment, “You shall not bear false witness.”
1 Have you ever told a lie? Are you innocent or guilty of breaking that
Commandment? Or the Eighth, “You shall not steal.”2 Have you ever stolen
something, irrespective of its value? Or the Third Commandment, “You shall
not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.”3 Have you ever used God’s
name as a cussword to express disgust—something called blasphemy? Or the
Seventh Commandment, “You shall not commit adultery.”4 But, guys, listen
to what Jesus said of that Commandment. He said, “But I say to you, whoever
looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with
her in his heart.”5 Have you ever done that? You say, “Man, have I ever done
that? That’s all I ever do. I’m guilty of that one.” In fact, you say, “You know
I’m guilty of breaking those four Commandments.”Well, if that’s true, on the
Day of Judgment, God will see you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer
at heart—very serious crimes in His sight. And the Bible makes it very clear
your eternal destiny will not be Heaven, but a place called Hell. The Scriptures warn, “All liars will
have their part in the lake of fire.”6 No thief, no adulterer, no fornicator (those who’ve had sex out of
marriage) will inherit the Kingdom of God.7
You say, “You don’t have to worry about me. I’ll be fine. I won’t end up in Hell, because I confessed
my sins to God. I tell Him I’m sorry.” Folks, that won’t help you on the Day of Judgment.
That’s like saying to the judge today,“Hey, Judge, I confess I committed the crime. Sorry.”He’d probably
say, “So you’re confessing your guilt. You should be sorry. You’ve done wrong.”
No, you need someone who can pay your fine. And, folks, that’s what God did for you and I two
thousand years ago. The Bible says He sent forth His Son, made of a woman,8 born of a virgin.9 Do
you know what that means? That means that Jesus of Nazareth was different than you and I. He was
morally perfect. He was without sin, and this perfect Man gave His perfect life as a perfect sacrifice
for the sin of the world.
9
Springboards for Budding Preachers
1 Exodus 20:16
2 Exodus 20:15
3 Exodus 20:7
4 Exodus 20:14
5 Matthew 5:27,28
6 Revelation 21:8
7 See 1 Corinthians 6:9.
8 See Galatians 4:4.
9 Matthew 1:23

Here's another:

I’ve come to realize that we live in a country that is filled with distraction from that which is most
important. Think about it; think about how lightly we look at the reality of death.We joke about
it, we have various sayings in relation to it like, “Oh, man, I feel like I’m going to die!” Or, “I’m
going to kill you!” or things of that sort.We make light of it; we joke about it because it’s almost
overwhelming to really focus on. And you know there’s a good correlation to that.
We’re sitting here right now, you look at the sky—we don’t see a cloud, the wind is hardly blowing.
But on the other side of the country, connected to the same piece of land right now is a hurricane
that is absolutely devastating people. There are ten thousand people in one location in that
dome there in Louisiana. There are people hiding in their attics right now, winds tearing roofs off
their houses. It’s devastating, but the furthest thing from our mind. You sit here and you look
around, and it’s so calm and peaceful and quiet.Who would think that there’s a storm connected to
this land mass? Friends, that’s so similar to what’s taking place in the eternal realm. You know that
you and I are literally on the brink of eternity, and many of you are right now on the brink of God’s
wrath and judgment for all eternity. I don’t enjoy talking about Hell. I don’t do it because it’s fun. If it
were up to me Hell wouldn’t exist, but it’s not up to me. Hell is a real place and we’re all in danger of
it, if we don’t have the salvation that God has provided through His Son.

In other words, the God of ECT is sort of like a dictator who tortures a family in the most horrible way possible for the rest of their lives all because they lied within the dictator's country.

Doesn't matter where your at. All know of God, many even in dictatorships know there is a God and many of them Worship Him in truth in secret because of the dictatorship. Many of them have gone home to be with the Lord, because they knew they ought not lie and didn't. They defended their faith and they lived it to the glorious end. It may be bitter for you. But for them, they are now in the throne room of Heaven, waiting for the Day of Vengeance that God is going to place on those who slaughtered His people.
So you think those who have committed these heinous crimes against Men, Women and Children should just die and receive a hand slap? Tell you what, pack up your stuff, go to one of the secret churches and let me see you say what your saying now to them. You know what they'll do...nothing...they will love you and pray for you that you see God in who He really is and that you have a change of heart. I know people who have gone to these country's and have heard their testimony. God is awesome in His Love, power and mercy. He will not in any way let the guilty go free. Not going to happen.

You are going to have to show me a real world example in every day situation as to how punishing somebody waaaay beyond what the crime calls for in the most horrible way possible can be just, fair, and good. But we both know you cannot do that.

Sure I can.
If you lie to your child..if you have one..there's not much that child can do to you, right?
If you lie to your wife, well, she could put you on the couch for the night.
If you lie to your boss, He'll most likely fire you.
If you lie to a police officer, he can arrest you for impeding.
If you lie to a Judge, you will go to jail for purgery.
If you lie to the president of the united states, you could be tried for treason, imprisoned or even shot.

You notice here, all you've done is lie. But the punishment fits the crime, depending on who you lied to. Child=nothing, wife=couch, boss=fired, Police=arrested, Judge=jail, President=Prison or shot.
Depending on who you lied to would dictate the type and amount of punishment you would receive.

Well, when you lie, you sin and when you sin, you sin against God. He hates sin, He hates the wicked soul all the day long. He is an eternal God, He is a righteous and Holy God. He is a just God. Just as He will punish those who slaughter His children for His names sake. He will also punish those who sin against Him, for telling a lie.
There will be degrees of punishment during the day of wrath. One “trivial” sin makes us guilty of the whole law and liable to eternal torment (James 2:10). Yet some acts are worse than others and deserve harsher punishment (Num. 35:9–29). As bad as Sodom was, her sentence will be lighter on Judgment Day than Bethsaida’s because Sodom never saw Jesus (Matt. 11:20–24). The sinner who never hears of Christ will go to hell, yet his pain will be less intense than those who hear the Gospel each Sunday and refuse to repent.

Also, does God seem petty enough not to forgive?

Not all will be, because they don't repent. Nor do they come to Him with a contrite spirit and a broken heart. They come because someone told them what to say. They come because they want to impress the people around them. They come because they felt a tingle from a song, but never feel the true conviction of the Holy Spirit in their life.
Many will come to the end saying Lord, Lord.

We live in the United States of America, which is considered by the whole world as being a
“Christian nation.”We’re as much a Christian nation in the eyes of the world as Saudi
Arabia is a Muslim nation. And there’s a bit of a fear in that, because when that happens
to a society, everyone becomes in a sense convinced of the fact that they are a genuine Christian,
according to the definition that Jesus Christ gave. But there’s a passage of Scripture that has really
struck a chord of sobriety in my own heart. It’s Matthew 7:21–23. Jesus said,“Many will say to Me on
that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, done
many wonders in Your name?’He said, “And then I will say to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from
Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”
In other words, what Jesus is saying is that there will be a group of people who will have lived
their lives on earth, the whole time having thought that they were genuinely Christians, but in the
end they will die realizing that God never even knew them. I mean, that’s really sobering. The reason
for that is because many of us think that what we do on the outside in terms of Christian rituals, and
duties, and obligations—that genuinely makes us a Christian. But that’s not the case.
If you and I go down right now to the local Oscar Mayer pig farm, and we pick up a nice little
pig—we take it home, stick it in our bathtub, pull out the Epi-lady and the Bic razor, shave it down,
pour gallons of perfume and cologne on this little pig, take it to the local tuxedo shop, get it a custom made pig tuxedo with a bowtie, a top hat, the whole deal—take it to get it some reconstructive plastic surgery, take it to the dentist, and get it some nice dentures made. Then we take this pig home, we put it in front of a banquet table, we fill this table with all the greatest delicacies you can imagine.We invite our guests of honor.
Let me ask you a question: When you let that pig go, what’s the first thing that that pig will do?
Is it going to be concerned about being adorned with the products of fluff? The first thing that pig is
going to do if you give it a chance is it’s going to run right back to the pigpen. The reason for that is
because it’s a pig at heart. It doesn’t matter what you do to its outside. It doesn’t matter how you
change it and reconstruct its face and make it look like a person—it’s a pig at heart. And that’s kind
of what it’s like with many of us who are trying to live the Christian life, but who haven’t had a
change of heart. It doesn’t matter how much we sit in church, how much we pray, how much we try
to look like a Christian—until our heart has been changed, it doesn’t make a difference.We’re going
to always go right back to the pigpen because that’s where our heart is.

Is that real world enough for you? I'm sure I can come up with more. But when you are trying to win people to Christ, You still have to rely on His Word. Because it's through law and His Spirit that converts the soul.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Does not God teach us to forgive?

Yes, he does. And so does God, before death. After death. If you haven't had that real change of Heart of being Born Again. You had your chance, then you don't.

Remember, Jesus said if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven.

True

You act like God all of a sudden has a split personality whereby He cannot forgive.

Answered.

Do you remember when Jesus said to the Father the following?

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).

Yep, He was showing us to forgive those who do harm to us. Not to fear them, but to fear the one who can send us to hell.

Yes, there is justice, but I really do not see how it is fair and good and just to punish a person waaaaaay beyond what the crime calls for.
Would you think it is fair to get the death penalty for J walking?
Come on now.[

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But the natural man - That is, every man who hath not the Spirit; who has no other way of obtaining knowledge, but by his senses and natural understanding. Receiveth not - Does not understand or conceive. The things of the Spirit - The things revealed by the Spirit of God, whether relating to his nature or his kingdom. For they are foolishness to him - He is so far from understanding, that he utterly despises, them Neither can he know them - As he has not the will, so neither has he the power. Because they are spiritually discerned - They can only be discerned by the aid of that Spirit, and by those spiritual senses, which he has not.

Luke 12:47-48 gives us a clear picture of what fair justice is like.

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Which knew his lord's will. Who knew what his master wished him to do. He that knows what God commands and requires.

Many stripes. Shall be severely and justly punished. They who have many privileges, who are often warned, who have the gospel, and do not repent and believe, shall be far more severely punished than others. They who are early taught in Sunday-schools, or by pious parents, or in other ways, and who grow up in sin and impenitence, will have much more to answer for than those who have no such privileges.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48).

Verse 48. Few stripes. The Jews never inflicted more than forty stripes for one offence, De 25:3. For smaller offences they inflicted only four, five, six, &c., according to the nature of the crime. In allusion to this, our Lord says that he that knew not -- that is, he who had comparatively little knowledge--would suffer a punishment proportionally light. He refers, doubtless, to those who have fewer opportunities, smaller gifts, or fewer teachers.
Much is given. They who have much committed to their disposal, as stewards, &c. See the parable of the talents in Mt 25:14-30. Cmt. on Mt 25:14, also Mt 25:15-30.

This is fair for earthly punishment. But this isn't speaking of judgement day. It's speaking about those who know the truth and don't live it accordingly and go to hell, they will receive a greater torment than those who, have never heard of Christ or have very little knowledge of Him, And die in their sins. I've already stated, there may be different levels of punishment in Hell. Yet there is still punishment, for eternity.

But such a punishment mentioned above within this passage should not exist in God's Word if God was into giving all the wicked a blanket wide punishment of never ending torture in flames for all eternity. It would be pointless to be beat some with few stripes and another with many stripes if all are just going to be beaten with endless stripes.

Read above

Bible Highlighter · May 28, 2017

Edmond Smith said:
I agree and never suggested it.
It wouldn't just be immoral...it wouldn't be the God of the Bible.
I agree with your premise. But there are no good guys...No one is good, not one.

Psalm 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.We are sinners saved by grace. God sanctifies us daily, but the reading of His Word and prayer. We are human and therefore in a sinful nature. But the blood of Christ has washed us and made us clean of sin. Our sins to never be remembered....Understand this quite clearly.

No. By your words (whether that was your intention or not) it sounds like you are suggesting that Romans 3 is a justification for us to live in sin on some small level because you are saying we are sinners (present tense), and that is not true. We are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Romans 13:14). We are told to walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). To say that Romans 3 is talking to faithful believers in Christ (in the present tense) is a gross misinterpretation of that portion of the Scriptures. For if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is in reference to faithful believers in Christ (in the present tense) then you must also believe and agree that faithful believers in Christ (in the present tense) have no understanding of the things of God and that they do not seek after God, too. For Romans 3:11 says the following,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" (Romans 3:11).

In Romans 3 Paul is talking about the process of Justification (Initial and or ultimate salvation) and he is not talking about the process of Sanctification (Which the next step or stage in a believer's salvation). Yes, the words justified and sanctified can be used to refer to both of these two different processes, but within Christianity it is understood that these two process are different and distinct from each other (although they are connected). Justification is about believing in Jesus as one's Savior, and believing in His death and resurrection on one's behalf so as to be saved. Justification would also include asking forgiveness of one's sins to Jesus, as well. This is something that does not involve any kind of major work on our part to do. It is God's grace and it begins our faith and our spiritual transformation. Belief in Jesus as one's Savior continues until the day we die. Confession of sin is done for new believers in the faith who have yet to still mature in the faith and walk uprightly with the Lord. Sanctification is the process of living holy. This is God directed works done through the believer and it is not man directed works. This is the proof in the pudding that God or Christ lives inside a believer or not. Without Christ (God) living in a believer, there is no salvation. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

You said:
I think you meant this:

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

No, I meant 1 Thessalonians 4:3.

The New Living Translation says,
"God's will is for you to be holy" (1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT).

The KJV says a similar thing. But it uses the word "sanctification" instead.
"For this is the will of God ... your sanctification" (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

You said:
But your right, we should do this also:

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Yes, because Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 that not everyone who says unto Him Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father. The will of the Father or the will of God is for us to live holy. For Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

You said:
You can't live in sin continually and be a true Son of God. If you live in sin. He doesn't abide with you or you with him. Your called a liar or even saying you are living with him.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Never suggest it.

Let me ask you a question or a few questions.

Do you believe that it is possible for a believer to die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and yet still be saved (as long as that believer generally lived a holy life)? Yes? or No?

You said:
I'm assuming you mean, you can make a real world example. Because first you say you can't, then you give the example of the Canaanite woman doing it. Confusing paragraph here.

You misunderstand. My point was not for me to make an example out of Conditional Immortality but it was for you to make a real world example for ECT (Eternal Concious Torment). My point was to show that even the Canaanite woman made a real world example to illustrate spiritual truth just as Jesus did. This is something you can never do with ECT. To say that one cannot make a real world example out of Conditional Immortality is silly. Of course one can do that. We see it all the time. Men get the death penalty for serious crimes they have done here upon this Earth.

You said:
Some of you are here today because you have allegedly violated man’s law. The Bible alleges thatboth you and I have violated God’s Law; that is, the Ten Commandments.

Okay. Stop right here.
First, the OT Law is made up of 613 Commands and not just 10.
Second, only 9 out of the 10 commandments are still applicable to believers today.
The Old Covenant ended with Christ's death upon the cross.
This is evident by the fact that the temple veil was torn from top to bottom.
Meaning, the laws on the animal sacrifices is no more.
This means that the Old Law does not apply anymore.
This is also evident in the fact that Paul said, "if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2). Jesus said to turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye, etc. God told Peter to eat unclean animals which is a violation of OT Law. Paul says we can worship any day of the week in Romans 14 and that we are not to judge according to Sabbaths in Colossians 2.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
This means that Paul was talking about the Old Law and not New Covenant Law when he was condemning in following "law." Also, it is true, works are merely a by-product of one's salvation. One cannot put the cart before the horse. But we are not saved even if we were to sin (while striving not to sin). A person has to confess sin so as to be forgiven (1 John 1:9) and a person has to walk in the light of Christ in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse them (1 John 1:7). For even just one sin can separate a believer from God.

You said:
So what I’m going to
do is put you on the stand, just for a few moments, and examine you under the light of that
Law. You can make the determination of your innocence or your guilt, and what your eternal destiny
will be, whether it be a place called Heaven or a place called Hell. So this is a very important issue
and I’d be grateful for your attention.
Let’s begin with the Ninth Commandment, “You shall not bear false witness.”
1 Have you ever told a lie? Are you innocent or guilty of breaking that
Commandment? Or the Eighth, “You shall not steal.”2 Have you ever stolen
something, irrespective of its value? Or the Third Commandment, “You shall
not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.”3 Have you ever used God’s
name as a cussword to express disgust—something called blasphemy? Or the
Seventh Commandment, “You shall not commit adultery.”4 But, guys, listen
to what Jesus said of that Commandment. He said, “But I say to you, whoever
looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with
her in his heart.”5 Have you ever done that? You say, “Man, have I ever done
that? That’s all I ever do. I’m guilty of that one.” In fact, you say, “You know
I’m guilty of breaking those four Commandments.”Well, if that’s true, on the
Day of Judgment, God will see you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer
at heart—very serious crimes in His sight. And the Bible makes it very clear
your eternal destiny will not be Heaven, but a place called Hell. The Scriptures warn, “All liars will
have their part in the lake of fire.”6 No thief, no adulterer, no fornicator (those who’ve had sex out of
marriage) will inherit the Kingdom of God.7
You say, “You don’t have to worry about me. I’ll be fine. I won’t end up in Hell, because I confessed
my sins to God. I tell Him I’m sorry.” Folks, that won’t help you on the Day of Judgment.
That’s like saying to the judge today,“Hey, Judge, I confess I committed the crime. Sorry.”He’d probably
say, “So you’re confessing your guilt. You should be sorry. You’ve done wrong.”
No, you need someone who can pay your fine. And, folks, that’s what God did for you and I two
thousand years ago. The Bible says He sent forth His Son, made of a woman,8 born of a virgin.9 Do
you know what that means? That means that Jesus of Nazareth was different than you and I. He was
morally perfect. He was without sin, and this perfect Man gave His perfect life as a perfect sacrifice
for the sin of the world.

You appear to be suggesting that when Jesus talked about Matthew 5:28-30 that He really was not warning us that we can be actually cast into hellfire bodily for looking upon a woman in lust as a believer.

This is a denial of the very words of Jesus in what He said. His point was not to show us the futility in obeying the Law here. Where in the Sermon on the Mount does He end His speech with showing that you cannot keep His teachings because they are too high or impossible to keep?

Okay. Matthew 6:15 is spoken to believers and not unbelievers. For it does not do any good for an unbeliever to forgive others in relation to being saved. An unbeliever will still be unsaved whether they forgive or not others. So Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15 and Jesus really means what He says when He says that if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father. A person who is saved has to be forgiven.

You said:
Here's another:

I’ve come to realize that we live in a country that is filled with distraction from that which is most
important. Think about it; think about how lightly we look at the reality of death.We joke about
it, we have various sayings in relation to it like, “Oh, man, I feel like I’m going to die!” Or, “I’m
going to kill you!” or things of that sort.We make light of it; we joke about it because it’s almost
overwhelming to really focus on.

Are you talking about Christians and yourself?
Because that is not something I ever say.
Nor is it something I hear others Christians I fellowship say either.

You said:
And you know there’s a good correlation to that.
We’re sitting here right now, you look at the sky—we don’t see a cloud, the wind is hardly blowing.
But on the other side of the country, connected to the same piece of land right now is a hurricane
that is absolutely devastating people. There are ten thousand people in one location in that
dome there in Louisiana. There are people hiding in their attics right now, winds tearing roofs off
their houses. It’s devastating, but the furthest thing from our mind. You sit here and you look
around, and it’s so calm and peaceful and quiet.Who would think that there’s a storm connected to
this land mass? Friends, that’s so similar to what’s taking place in the eternal realm. You know that
you and I are literally on the brink of eternity, and many of you are right now on the brink of God’s
wrath and judgment for all eternity. I don’t enjoy talking about Hell. I don’t do it because it’s fun. If it
were up to me Hell wouldn’t exist, but it’s not up to me. Hell is a real place and we’re all in danger of
it, if we don’t have the salvation that God has provided through His Son.

You are just repeating what you believe to be right and that is not proof of anything. Again, show me the goodness of how it is fair and just to roast people alive for all eternity in the flames for a finite amount of crimes.

You said:
Doesn't matter where your at. All know of God, many even in dictatorships know there is a God and many of them Worship Him in truth in secret because of the dictatorship. Many of them have gone home to be with the Lord, because they knew they ought not lie and didn't. They defended their faith and they lived it to the glorious end. It may be bitter for you. But for them, they are now in the throne room of Heaven, waiting for the Day of Vengeance that God is going to place on those who slaughtered His people.
So you think those who have committed these heinous crimes against Men, Women and Children should just die and receive a hand slap? Tell you what, pack up your stuff, go to one of the secret churches and let me see you say what your saying now to them. You know what they'll do...nothing...they will love you and pray for you that you see God in who He really is and that you have a change of heart. I know people who have gone to these country's and have heard their testimony. God is awesome in His Love, power and mercy. He will not in any way let the guilty go free. Not going to happen.

The point is that Jesus used an example of kings and servants to illustrate spiritual truth. This is something that cannot be done with ECT successfully.

You said:
If you lie to your child..if you have one..there's not much that child can do to you, right?
If you lie to your wife, well, she could put you on the couch for the night.
If you lie to your boss, He'll most likely fire you.
If you lie to a police officer, he can arrest you for impeding.
If you lie to a Judge, you will go to jail for purgery.
If you lie to the president of the united states, you could be tried for treason, imprisoned or even shot.

You notice here, all you've done is lie. But the punishment fits the crime, depending on who you lied to. Child=nothing, wife=couch, boss=fired, Police=arrested, Judge=jail, President=Prison or shot.
Depending on who you lied to would dictate the type and amount of punishment you would receive.

But there are limits even to the type of punishment in who you commit the crime against. It does not matter how important a person is or how perfect they are. If a person were to torture alive somebody alive for the rest of their life, they would be considered a monster and not a good and loving person. Somehow you think this changes when you put God into the seat of Judgment here. But it doesn't change the situation.

You said:
Well, when you lie, you sin and when you sin, you sin against God. He hates sin, He hates the wicked soul all the day long. He is an eternal God, He is a righteous and Holy God. He is a just God. Just as He will punish those who slaughter His children for His names sake. He will also punish those who sin against Him, for telling a lie.
There will be degrees of punishment during the day of wrath. One “trivial” sin makes us guilty of the whole law and liable to eternal torment (James 2:10). Yet some acts are worse than others and deserve harsher punishment (Num. 35:9–29). As bad as Sodom was, her sentence will be lighter on Judgment Day than Bethsaida’s because Sodom never saw Jesus (Matt. 11:20–24). The sinner who never hears of Christ will go to hell, yet his pain will be less intense than those who hear the Gospel each Sunday and refuse to repent.

Yes, God will punish sin. We are not in disagreement on that. But we disagree on what fair justice or what fair punishment means. You are just reading words on a page and you are not checking the Scriptures with your heart on this matter. Basic morality is destroyed with ECT. Your not wanting to see it does not change the fact of that.

You said:
Not all will be, because they don't repent. Nor do they come to Him with a contrite spirit and a broken heart. They come because someone told them what to say. They come because they want to impress the people around them. They come because they felt a tingle from a song, but never feel the true conviction of the Holy Spirit in their life.
Many will come to the end saying Lord, Lord.

We live in the United States of America, which is considered by the whole world as being a
“Christian nation.”We’re as much a Christian nation in the eyes of the world as Saudi
Arabia is a Muslim nation. And there’s a bit of a fear in that, because when that happens
to a society, everyone becomes in a sense convinced of the fact that they are a genuine Christian,
according to the definition that Jesus Christ gave. But there’s a passage of Scripture that has really
struck a chord of sobriety in my own heart. It’s Matthew 7:21–23. Jesus said,“Many will say to Me on
that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, done
many wonders in Your name?’He said, “And then I will say to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from
Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”
In other words, what Jesus is saying is that there will be a group of people who will have lived
their lives on earth, the whole time having thought that they were genuinely Christians, but in the
end they will die realizing that God never even knew them. I mean, that’s really sobering. The reason
for that is because many of us think that what we do on the outside in terms of Christian rituals, and
duties, and obligations—that genuinely makes us a Christian. But that’s not the case.
If you and I go down right now to the local Oscar Mayer pig farm, and we pick up a nice little
pig—we take it home, stick it in our bathtub, pull out the Epi-lady and the Bic razor, shave it down,
pour gallons of perfume and cologne on this little pig, take it to the local tuxedo shop, get it a custom made pig tuxedo with a bowtie, a top hat, the whole deal—take it to get it some reconstructive plastic surgery, take it to the dentist, and get it some nice dentures made. Then we take this pig home, we put it in front of a banquet table, we fill this table with all the greatest delicacies you can imagine.We invite our guests of honor.
Let me ask you a question: When you let that pig go, what’s the first thing that that pig will do?
Is it going to be concerned about being adorned with the products of fluff? The first thing that pig is
going to do if you give it a chance is it’s going to run right back to the pigpen. The reason for that is
because it’s a pig at heart. It doesn’t matter what you do to its outside. It doesn’t matter how you
change it and reconstruct its face and make it look like a person—it’s a pig at heart. And that’s kind
of what it’s like with many of us who are trying to live the Christian life, but who haven’t had a
change of heart. It doesn’t matter how much we sit in church, how much we pray, how much we try
to look like a Christian—until our heart has been changed, it doesn’t make a difference.We’re going
to always go right back to the pigpen because that’s where our heart is.

Is that real world enough for you?

Yes, he does. And so does God, before death. After death. If you haven't had that real change of Heart of being Born Again. You had your chance, then you don't.

I could not agree more that there are believers who are not going to make it. Jesus says so within His Word. The difference between the fakers and the real article is 1 John 2:3-6.

You said:
Many stripes. Shall be severely and justly punished. They who have many privileges, who are often warned, who have the gospel, and do not repent and believe, shall be far more severely punished than others. They who are early taught in Sunday-schools, or by pious parents, or in other ways, and who grow up in sin and impenitence, will have much more to answer for than those who have no such privileges.

No. This is talking about the Judgment of the believer who was not looking for His Lord's return. So it is in reference to Judgmnent.

...

claninja · May 28, 2017

Edmond Smith said:
This one is about the final age. The one we are in now. The KJV uses the end of the world. Means same thing.
You and I already agree on the former we spoke about.
And if you notice there in v.40 also, that the angels collect the tares (wicked ones) and cast them into the fire. Remember this is a parable and Christ equates tares to people. Verse 42, explains what happens to the tares.
Christ said this...not me.

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom
of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This passage is not about the end of the world (kosmos), but about the completion of the end of the age.
Matthew 13:40
4930 [e] synteleia συντελείᾳ completion N-DFS
3588 [e] tou τοῦ of the Art-GMS
165 [e] aiōnos αἰῶνος. age. N-GMS

This coincides with Hebrews 9:26, where Jesus died on the cross at the completion of the end of the ages
4930 [e] synteleia συντελείᾳ [the] consummation N-DFS
3588 [e] tōn τῶν of the Art-GMP
165 [e] aiōnōn αἰώνων ages, N-GMP

It also coincides with Paul stating that the end of the ages has arrived in 1 Corinthians 10:11
3588 [e] ta τὰ the Art-NNP
5056 [e] telē τέλη ends N-NNP
3588 [e] tōn τῶν of the Art-GMP
165 [e] aiōnōn αἰώνων ages N-GMP

Jesus is using a parable to describe the destruction of unbelieving Israel. This parable is paralleled with the parable of the fish and even the sheep and the goats. These parables also coincide with Daniel 12:1-4. We also know that Daniel 12:1-4 will be accomplished when the power of the holy people is shattered, Daniel 12:7.

In other words, the completion of the end of the age(s) has to due with 70AD and the shattering of the power of the holy people.

Edmond Smith · May 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
No. By your words (whether that was your intention or not) it sounds like you are suggesting that Romans 3 is a justification for us to live in sin on some small level because you are saying we are sinners (present tense), and that is not true.

There is one good. But if that confused you maybe this will help.
We are sinner's saved by grace, by faith alone and by Christ alone.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We are human. We will make mistakes..and because God knows this we have an advocate. Christ Jesus to call to for forgiveness of those mistake.
We who are Born Again,will be judged by Christ, not for our sins, but for our deeds.

We are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Romans 13:14).

Yep, this is correct. We should put in Christ, to be more like Him and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Doesn't change the fact that we are still human and we battle with the flesh, How many women have you looked at with lust In the last few days? How many lies have you told, that includes stretching the truth as the saying goes, it's still a lie. How many times have you used Gods' name in vain?
These are things that we battle with and are of the flesh. The also happen to be 3 of the 10 commandments.
If we say we never sin, then we make God out to be a liar.

We are told to walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly in this. But It was written because many were fulfilling the lust of the flesh and not walking in the Spirit of God. Paul was telling the church, Christians, don't do these things, of which some were doing.

To say that Romans 3 is talking to faithful believers in Christ (in the present tense) is a gross misinterpretation of that portion of the Scriptures.

I don't say that.
Paul says it.

Romans 1:6,7
6. Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7. To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You might want to read the whole chapter 1. It explains exactly who he is speaking to.

He was speaking to both the Jews who converted to Christianity and to those who didn't believe.

For if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is in reference to faithful believers in Christ (in the present tense) then you must also believe and agree that faithful believers in Christ (in the present tense) have no understanding of the things of God and that they do not seek after God, too. For Romans 3:11 says the following,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" (Romans 3:11).

Your right, it is in reference to faithful believers.

I think what you are not understanding, I hope. Is that right now, here on this earth. We are still in this blemished earthly body. Yes, our sins have been forgiven, Yes, we are children of God. And because of that there is no condemnation. And we are not under the law. But, because we still have a mind, because we still are here and not in our glorified body. We still have temptations, we still have lustful desires. God is working on us daily. He says He will finish that which he has begun. New Born Christians will do things they don't understand are wrong and with discipleship, Love, patience and prayer. We will help them. Yet, we will also have to pray without ceasing and read God's word. To get closer to God and grow in Him.
Until we reach glory, we are not perfect.

In Romans 3 Paul is talking about the process of Justification (Initial and or ultimate salvation)

δικαίωσις dikaíōsis, dik-ah'-yo-sis

from G1344; aquittal (for Christ's sake):—justification.

feminine noun

Your definition of Justification isn't Initial salvation. It is the product of savaltion. Our sins are erased. Not just the ones we remember at the time of Repentance. But all the way back to the very first sin we ever committed.

and he is not talking about the process of Sanctification (Which the next step or stage in a believer's salvation).

Yeah, it is.
You quoted this yesterday:
1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
It's His will for us to put on Christ and to be like Him, Hence it is part of Sanctification.

Yes, the words justified and sanctified can be used to refer to both of these two different processes, but within Christianity it is understood that these two process are different and distinct from each other (although they are connected).

Not only connected, you can't have one without the other. Sanctification can only be obtain, but thru the total forgiveness of your sins. Sanctification starts after Salvation begins. Some things happen in an instant and some things over time.

Justification is about believing in Jesus as one's Savior, and believing in His death and resurrection on one's behalf so as to be saved. Justification would also include asking forgiveness of one's sins to Jesus, as well.

Click to expand...

As I said, Justification is what happens when we Repent of our sins, and all of our sins from the beginning to the present are forgiven.
Repentance is the asking of forgiveness of ones sins, by confessing to Christ that you are a sinner and you surrender unto Him.

This is something that does not involve any kind of major work on our part to do.

Click to expand...

I agree, we have no merit.

It is God's grace and it begins our faith and our spiritual transformation.

Click to expand...

Belief in Jesus as one's Savior continues until the day we die.

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Not just belief, prayer, reading of His Word and works of faith, help us to grow in knowledge and wisdom in God and in faith.

Confession of sin is done for new believers in the faith who have yet to still mature in the faith and walk uprightly with the Lord.

Click to expand...

Confession of sin isn't done for new believers, it's done by those who are drawn nigh by God and convicted by the Holy Spirit and God's Word. Those who are newly born again will mature in the faith by reading of God's Word, discipleship and prayer.

Sanctification is the process of living holy. This is God directed works done through the believer and it is not man directed works.

Click to expand...

true. It can happen immediately with some things and in some things it can take time. Depending on the Sovereign will of God.

This is the proof in the pudding that God or Christ lives inside a believer or not.

Click to expand...

The fruits of the spirit are evident in a Child of God. We can judge them by the fruits they bear which is received by the Holy Spirit.

Without Christ (God) living in a believer, there is no salvation. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

Click to expand...

True

No, I meant 1 Thessalonians 4:3.

The New Living Translation says,
"God's will is for you to be holy" (1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT).

The KJV says a similar thing. But it uses the word "sanctification" instead.
"For this is the will of God ... your sanctification" (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

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They aren't the same though.
Sanctification is the process of becoming Holy.
Being Holy is be like God. That we aren't at yet.
The word tells us to be Holy as God is Holy....the action is ..."to be"...doesn't mean you are right now..you are only perfectly Holy After the day of judgment when you receive your new body and your new name. At that time we will be as God, not a God, but like Him...Holy.

Yes, because Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 that not everyone who says unto Him Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father. The will of the Father or the will of God is for us to live holy. For Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

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Yep, Instead of yielding to our passions. Walking away, from sin, living a righteous life in Christ, through prayer and the reading of His Word.

Let me ask you a question or a few questions.

Do you believe that it is possible for a believer to die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and yet still be saved (as long as that believer generally lived a holy life)? Yes? or No?

That person could be going to hell anyway. Because believing means nothing. Demons believe yet they tremble.

Now do I believe someone who is Born Again, repented of His/her sins and have placed their trust in Christ, obeying God, living a Holy Life to his/her best ability only through the Spirit of God, and they lie about something or lust after someone, that they die in sin? No. Because there is no condemnation and we aren't covered by the law. We are dead to sin and alive in Christ.s

But does that give license to go out and sin continually. NO. If you do that, you weren't saved in the first place.

You misunderstand. My point was not for me to make an example out of Conditional Immortality but it was for you to make a real world example for ECT (Eternal Concious Torment). My point was to show that even the Canaanite woman made a real world example to illustrate spiritual truth just as Jesus did. This is something you can never do with ECT. To say that one cannot make a real world example out of Conditional Immortality is silly. Of course one can do that. We see it all the time. Men get the death penalty for serious crimes they have done here upon this Earth.

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Did that, you don't accept it. That's on you.

Okay. Stop right here.
First, the OT Law is made up of 613 Commands and not just 10.
Second, only 9 out of the 10 commandments are still applicable to believers today.
The Old Covenant ended with Christ's death upon the cross.
This is evident by the fact that the temple veil was torn from top to bottom.
Meaning, the laws on the animal sacrifices is no more.
This means that the Old Law does not apply anymore.
This is also evident in the fact that Paul said, "if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2). Jesus said to turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye, etc. God told Peter to eat unclean animals which is a violation of OT Law. Paul says we can worship any day of the week in Romans 14 and that we are not to judge according to Sabbaths in Colossians 2.

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Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The law that both David and Paul are speaking about is the 10 Commandments.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

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Hebrews 7. Is speaking of the Priesthood of Christ. The law that would have been changed would have been all the ceremonial laws that pertained to priesthood.

This means that Paul was talking about the Old Law and not New Covenant Law when he was condemning in following "law." Also, it is true, works are merely a by-product of one's salvation. One cannot put the cart before the horse. But we are not saved even if we were to sin (while striving not to sin). A person has to confess sin so as to be forgiven (1 John 1:9) and a person has to walk in the light of Christ in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse them (1 John 1:7). For even just one sin can separate a believer from God.

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without the law there is no sin
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

You appear to be suggesting that when Jesus talked about Matthew 5:28-30 that He really was not warning us that we can be actually cast into hellfire bodily for looking upon a woman in lust as a believer.

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Again, you know i'm not suggesting that. You go to hell for sin, if you have not repented and placed your trust in Christ.

This is a denial of the very words of Jesus in what He said. His point was not to show us the futility in obeying the Law here. Where in the Sermon on the Mount does He end His speech with showing that you cannot keep His teachings because they are too high or impossible to keep?

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Again, you fail to read the post. I never mention that.

Okay. Matthew 6:15 is spoken to believers and not unbelievers.

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Your part right. It is to those who are believers.

It isn't to nonbelievers. Because God doesn't hear the unrighteous in their prayers. The only prayer he wants to hear from them. Is the prayer of repentance. Read the whole prayer. Your cherry picking and taking scripture out of context.

For it does not do any good for an unbeliever to forgive others in relation to being saved. An unbeliever will still be unsaved whether they forgive or not others. So Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15 and Jesus really means what He says when He says that if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father. A person who is saved has to be forgiven.

Are you talking about Christians and yourself?
Because that is not something I ever say.
Nor is it something I hear others Christians I fellowship say either.

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Not myself no. But have heard it. And if you've seen any television you've heard it to.
People have no fear of God. Nor do they understand what happens after death.

You are just repeating what you believe to be right and that is not proof of anything. Again, show me the goodness of how it is fair and just to roast people alive for all eternity in the flames for a finite amount of crimes.

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I did, you don't accept it. That's on you.

The point is that Jesus used an example of kings and servants to illustrate spiritual truth. This is something that cannot be done with ECT successfully.

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Disagree with you completely. Many have heard it put this way and understood exactly what is meant by it. I'm sorry you don't.

But there are limits even to the type of punishment in who you commit the crime against. It does not matter how important a person is or how perfect they are. If a person were to torture alive somebody alive for the rest of their life, they would be considered a monster and not a good and loving person. Somehow you think this changes when you put God into the seat of Judgment here. But it doesn't change the situation.

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You see, I know understand you a bit more. You don't like Eternal Conscious Torment. So much so you don't even like saying it. You also don't understand who God is. Because if you did. Then you'd know him to be a just God, and He will punish Sin. Whether you like it or not. It's going to happen.

Yes, God will punish sin. We are not in disagreement on that. But we disagree on what fair justice or what fair punishment means. You are just reading words on a page and you are not checking the Scriptures with your heart on this matter. Basic morality is destroyed with ECT. Your not wanting to see it does not change the fact of that.

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I'm reading the Scriputres. I'm also keeping them in context. Unlike you who cherry picks only those that fit your own feelings. You have broken the first commandment, Thou shalt not have any other gods before me.
You have created a god of your own choosing. your god, won't punish eternally. because he doesn't exist eternally, he will only exist until you stand before the God of the bible and then you will see the truth of His Word. Eternal Torment is throughout the scripture, time and time again. Denying it. Won't make it go away. If you understood who God is and what He will do and what He can't do. We will never know God completely, because there are many things about Him that are not revealed. But what is revealed is in His Word. He says that those who die in their sins will be cast into eternal torment. No real world story, will change that fact, no matter how you spin it.
You've broke the first commandment, I remind you. And if you have been fault in one. You've broke them all.
Repent, place your trust in God.
Also, who are you to question God's morality?
Are you so moral that you are above God?
There was someone else who once that they were above God. He was cast out of Heaven. Maybe you can figure that out yourself.

I could not agree more that there are believers who are not going to make it. Jesus says so within His Word. The difference between the fakers and the real article is 1 John 2:3-6.

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No. This is talking about the Judgment of the believer who was not looking for His Lord's return. So it is in reference to Judgmnent.

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Right, how those who know the truth of the Word of God and refuse to live it. They will receive a greater punishment in Hell than those who barely know the truth of God's word and have never lived it. It tells us in the Word that we who know will receive a greater punishment if we don't teach the truth.

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Edmond Smith · May 28, 2017

claninja said:
This passage is not about the end of the world (kosmos), but about the completion of the end of the age.
Matthew 13:40
4930 [e] synteleia συντελείᾳ completion N-DFS
3588 [e] tou τοῦ of the Art-GMS
165 [e] aiōnos αἰῶνος. age. N-GMS

Remember I agreed with you.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
165. αἰών aion (aiṓn)
Search for G165 in KJVSL; in KJV.
αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'

from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

masculine noun
Strong's Greek Dictionary
5550. χρόνος chronos (chrónos)
Search for G5550 in KJVSL; in KJV.
χρόνος chrónos, khron'-os

of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:—+ years old, season, space, (× often-)time(-s), (a) while.

masculine noun

This coincides with Hebrews 9:26, where Jesus died on the cross at the completion of the end of the ages
4930 [e] synteleia συντελείᾳ [the] consummation N-DFS
3588 [e] tōn τῶν of the Art-GMP
165 [e] aiōnōn αἰώνων ages, N-GMP

It also coincides with Paul stating that the end of the ages has arrived in 1 Corinthians 10:11
3588 [e] ta τὰ the Art-NNP
5056 [e] telē τέλη ends N-NNP
3588 [e] tōn τῶν of the Art-GMP
165 [e] aiōnōn αἰώνων ages N-GMP

Do you see it? Please tell me you do.
We are both right. but there is something to see. I'll wait for your response. Not being glib or picking on you. It's a learning opportunity for both of us.

I'll respond more after you do on the above.
Read over the scripture and the definitions, we both have shown. You'll see it. God is so Awsome!!!

Jesus is using a parable to describe the destruction of unbelieving Israel. This parable is paralleled with the parable of the fish and even the sheep and the goats. These parables also coincide with Daniel 12:1-4. We also know that Daniel 12:1-4 will be accomplished when the power of the holy people is shattered, Daniel 12:7.

In other words, the completion of the end of the age(s) has to due with 70AD and the shattering of the power of the holy people.[/QUOTE]

Edmond Smith · May 28, 2017

claninja said:
This passage is not about the end of the world (kosmos), but about the completion of the end of the age.
Matthew 13:40
4930 [e] synteleia συντελείᾳ completion N-DFS
3588 [e] tou τοῦ of the Art-GMS
165 [e] aiōnos αἰῶνος. age. N-GMS

Remember I agreed with you.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
165. αἰών aion (aiṓn)
Search for G165 in KJVSL; in KJV.
αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'

from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

masculine noun
Strong's Greek Dictionary
5550. χρόνος chronos (chrónos)
Search for G5550 in KJVSL; in KJV.
χρόνος chrónos, khron'-os

of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:—+ years old, season, space, (× often-)time(-s), (a) while.

masculine noun

This coincides with Hebrews 9:26, where Jesus died on the cross at the completion of the end of the ages
4930 [e] synteleia συντελείᾳ [the] consummation N-DFS
3588 [e] tōn τῶν of the Art-GMP
165 [e] aiōnōn αἰώνων ages, N-GMP

It also coincides with Paul stating that the end of the ages has arrived in 1 Corinthians 10:11
3588 [e] ta τὰ the Art-NNP
5056 [e] telē τέλη ends N-NNP
3588 [e] tōn τῶν of the Art-GMP
165 [e] aiōnōn αἰώνων ages N-GMP

Do you see it? Please tell me you do.
We are both right. but there is something to see. I'll wait for your response. Not being glib or picking on you. It's a learning opportunity for both of us.

I'll respond more after you do on the above.
Read over the scripture and the definitions, we both have shown. You'll see it. God is so Awsome!!!

Jesus is using a parable to describe the destruction of unbelieving Israel. This parable is paralleled with the parable of the fish and even the sheep and the goats. These parables also coincide with Daniel 12:1-4. We also know that Daniel 12:1-4 will be accomplished when the power of the holy people is shattered, Daniel 12:7.

In other words, the completion of the end of the age(s) has to due with 70AD and the shattering of the power of the holy people.[/QUOTE]

Bible Highlighter · May 28, 2017

Edmond Smith said:
There is one good. But if that confused you maybe this will help.

God (Christ) is the One Who Ultimately Does the Work Within a Believer:

“Being confident of this very thing, that he who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6).

“Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.” (Philippians 1:11).

“For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13).

“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” (Philippians 4:13).

“But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me” (1 Corinthians 15:10). (Jesus is full of grace and truth - John 1:14).

“1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:1-2).

“Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:21).

“LORD, you will ordain peace for us: for you also have wrought all our works in us.”
(Isaiah 26:12).

“No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us” (1 John 4:12). (1 John 2:5 says, “But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him”).

“22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
(Galatians 5:22-24). (Jesus says,
16 “You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” (Matthew 7:16-18)). (Jesus also says, “And he said unto him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17)). (Paul says, “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.” (Romans 13:14)).

“I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing” (John 15:5).

“26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
(Ezekiel 36:26-27).

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

You said:
We are sinner's saved by grace, by faith alone and by Christ alone.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 2:4 is not consistent with your statement of: "we are sinner's saved by grace." Now, it is true, we were ONCE sinners in the past tense. But we cannot say that we know Christ (Who is the source of our salvation - See 1 John 5:12) and yet break His commandments (i.e. sin - See 1 John 3:4). For he that says he knows Him (Christ) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth (Jesus) is not in them. So it is not true or correct to say that a believer is a sinner (in the present tense who still sins) who is saved by grace. It sends the wrong message or idea that we can sin and still be saved (Thereby turning God's grace into a license for immorality which Jude 1:4 NIV warns us about).

You said:
We are human. We will make mistakes..and because God knows this we have an advocate. Christ Jesus to call to for forgiveness of those mistake.

No. 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 are for believers who still have yet to mature in the faith and who need to put sin out of their lives. It takes time for believers to overcome their sin. God says, "Be ye holy because I am holy." Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. This would be a lie by Jesus if you could not actually be perfect as the Father is. Jesus would not tell us to do something that was impossible. Jesus said, "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master" (Luke 6:40). The 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God (See Revelation 14:3-5).

You said:
We who are Born Again,will be judged by Christ, not for our sins, but for our deeds.

Not true at all. Scripture says,

5 "...God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:5-11).

Jesus says,
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).

Jesus will send forth His angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (sin) and who do iniquity (intense sin or lawlessness) and cast them into the furnace of fire (Lake of Fire).

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).

You said:
Yep, this is correct. We should put in Christ, to be more like Him and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

But I get the impression that you do not completely believe Romans 13:14 because you think you will fulfill the lusts of the flesh by the fact that you say that believers will always have sin in their life 24/7. To me, this belief is not consistent with Romans 13:14. Paul says put on the Lord Jesus and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

You said:
Doesn't change the fact that we are still human and we battle with the flesh, How many women have you looked at with lust In the last few days?

There are many days and even even many weeks I have not looked at women in lust. My eyes for my wife and for her alone.

You said:
How many lies have you told, that includes stretching the truth as the saying goes, it's still a lie.

Do you think Jesus lied when He said to the Pharisees that they are gods instead of Jesus answering them directly in saying that He actually was God Almighty in the flesh? In the Old Testament times, there was also the use of deception as a part fo the art of war. God even had spies in the Old Testament. But no. I cannot remember the last time I lied to anyone. That is not normal.

You said:
How many times have you used Gods' name in vain?

After coming to Christ, I have never done this. This is a double, "no, no." in my book.
I have walked out of a room at work before once because they were taking the Lord's name in vain constantly. It vexed my soul for them to do such a horrible thing.

You said:
These are things that we battle with and are of the flesh. The also happen to be 3 of the 10 commandments.
If we say we never sin, then we make God out to be a liar.

We must be born again spiritually. We cannot justify sin. We have to believe God's Word in that it says that we can indeed overcome sin in this life here. Please re-read 1 Peter 4:1-2 in prayer. It says we can cease from sin and that we should not live the rest of our time here on this Earth to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God.

You said:
We are told to walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

I agree wholeheartedly in this. But It was written because many were fulfilling the lust of the flesh and not walking in the Spirit of God. Paul was telling the church, Christians, don't do these things, of which some were doing.

Sorry, it does not appear that you agree with Galatians 5:16. "To fulfill the lusts of the flesh" is still being fulfilled by anyone who claims they are human and that they think that all believers commit serious sin every day. This is not the case for my life. Jesus changed my life for the better. I am not living the same way that I used to live. Serious sin does not control me day in and day out. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

Jason0047 said:
To say that Romans 3 is talking to faithful believers in Christ (in the present tense) is a gross misinterpretation of that portion of the Scriptures.

You said:
I don't say that.
Paul says it.

Romans 1:6,7
6. Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7. To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You might want to read the whole chapter 1. It explains exactly who he is speaking to.

He was speaking to both the Jews who converted to Christianity and to those who didn't believe.

First, notice Paul does not refer to those who are not beloved of God or sinners (who continue in sin) saved by grace. Second, Paul can talk to believers and yet also refer to a WRONG WAY of salvation or a WRONG WAY of grace. There is a difference between Paul speaking to an AUDIENCE in general in whom to he is writing versus (vs.) the POINT Paul is trying to make in regards to a FALSE BELIEF. Paul is writing to the church who are faithful but there are some among them who struggle with going back to the Old Testament Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Commands within the Old Testament). Romans 3:1 sets up this context. "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? " (Romans 3:1). Paul is speaking against "Circumcision Salvationism" because some of them struggled in going back to the Law of Moses by saying they had to be circumcised so as to be saved (Which is a wrong belief). Paul's point is that they are saved initially and ultimately saved by God's grace in Romans 3 and not by keeping any Law of Moses like circumcision. Just do a keyword search on the variation of the word "circumcision" and it will tell you that this is the context most of the time when Paul uses the word "Law."

You said:
Your right, it is in reference to faithful believers.

It is an oxymoron to say they are faithful believers and yet they are also sinners (in the present tense) saved by God's grace. That would be like a King who says his servant was faithful while he was selling secrets to the enemy. That would be like a husband who says he is faithful to his wife and yet he sleeps around.

You said:
I think what you are not understanding, I hope. Is that right now, here on this earth. We are still in this blemished earthly body. Yes, our sins have been forgiven, Yes, we are children of God.

Okay. Stop right here!

Please. Please. Just slowly read 1 John 3:10. It refutes your belief in the fact that you think that a believer does not have to do righteousness and still be of God. For 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. John 3:20 says everyone who does evil hates the light.

You said:
And because of that there is no condemnation. And we are not under the law.

Paul is talking about the Old Law and not the New Law.
This is evident if you were to read 1 John 3:23. Unless of course you do not believe you are under the Command (salvation wise) in regards to 1 John 3:23. So no. We are under certain laws or commands that does deal with our salvation. So what you are saying is not true. Paul was not speaking against "Law" in general. Paul was talking about the Old Law.

You said:
But, because we still have a mind, because we still are here and not in our glorified body. We still have temptations, we still have lustful desires. God is working on us daily. He says He will finish that which he has begun.

You are speaking from your experience and not the Word of God.

You said:
New Born Christians will do things they don't understand are wrong and with discipleship, Love, patience and prayer. We will help them. Yet, we will also have to pray without ceasing and read God's word. To get closer to God and grow in Him.
Until we reach glory, we are not perfect.

How can one help them if they themselves also are struggling with sin day in and day out?
Remember, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for not obeying God's Word.
A drowning person cannot save another person who is drowning.

Remember, Jesus said things like,

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" (Matthew 23:15).

You said:
δικαίωσις dikaíōsis, dik-ah'-yo-sis

from G1344; aquittal (for Christ's sake):—justification.

feminine noun

Your definition of Justification isn't Initial salvation. It is the product of savaltion. Our sins are erased. Not just the ones we remember at the time of Repentance. But all the way back to the very first sin we ever committed.

The process of Justification not only includes Initial Salvation but it also continues through out a believer's life. A believer will not stop believing in Jesus as their Savior. They will not stop believing that He had died and was risen again. Granted, some believers have turned away from the truth. Some have fallen away from the faith by teaching that the bodily resurrection of the saints has already happened.

17 "And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:17-18).

You said:
Yeah, it is.
You quoted this yesterday:
1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
It's His will for us to put on Christ and to be like Him, Hence it is part of Sanctification.

The word sanctified means to be made holy or to set apart. We are to be holy in conduct because the Bible teaches that there is a Sanctification process (i.e. Holy living) that we must go through in order to continue in God's grace or salvation.

I would recommend checking out this CF thread link below on Sanctification in how it relates to our salvation.

In laying upon the foundation of God's saving grace, does Sanctification (holy living) also save?

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helping · May 28, 2017

What does one need to do to get to Heaven ??? What does one need to do to get to Hell ???

helping · May 28, 2017

Did Christ say, who that doesn't find Him is condemned ???
Who finds Christ gets Eternal ???
Who doesn't do as He says, is better off, not to find Him ???
So is He talking about Hell ?? So then, condemned is better than Hell !!
Doing what He says, gets you to Heaven !
So it might be rather important, to know what He says to do!!

Edmond Smith · May 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
God (Christ) is the One Who Ultimately Does the Work Within a Believer:

“Being confident of this very thing, that he who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6).

“Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.” (Philippians 1:11).

“For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13).

“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” (Philippians 4:13).

“But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me” (1 Corinthians 15:10). (Jesus is full of grace and truth - John 1:14).

“1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:1-2).

“Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:21).

“LORD, you will ordain peace for us: for you also have wrought all our works in us.”
(Isaiah 26:12).

“No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us” (1 John 4:12). (1 John 2:5 says, “But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him”).

“22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
(Galatians 5:22-24). (Jesus says,
16 “You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” (Matthew 7:16-18)). (Jesus also says, “And he said unto him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17)). (Paul says, “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.” (Romans 13:14)).

“I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing” (John 15:5).

“26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
(Ezekiel 36:26-27).

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

1 John 2:4 is not consistent with your statement of: "we are sinner's saved by grace." Now, it is true, we were ONCE sinners in the past tense. But we cannot say that we know Christ (Who is the source of our salvation - See 1 John 5:12) and yet break His commandments (i.e. sin - See 1 John 3:4). For he that says he knows Him (Christ) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth (Jesus) is not in them. So it is not true or correct to say that a believer is a sinner (in the present tense who still sins) who is saved by grace. It sends the wrong message or idea that we can sin and still be saved (Thereby turning God's grace into a license for immorality which Jude 1:4 NIV warns us about).

No. 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 are for believers who still have yet to mature in the faith and who need to put sin out of their lives. It takes time for believers to overcome their sin. God says, "Be ye holy because I am holy." Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. This would be a lie by Jesus if you could not actually be perfect as the Father is. Jesus would not tell us to do something that was impossible. Jesus said, "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master" (Luke 6:40). The 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God (See Revelation 14:3-5).

Not true at all. Scripture says,

5 "...God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:5-11).

Jesus says,
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).

Jesus will send forth His angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (sin) and who do iniquity (intense sin or lawlessness) and cast them into the furnace of fire (Lake of Fire).

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).

But I get the impression that you do not completely believe Romans 13:14 because you think you will fulfill the lusts of the flesh by the fact that you say that believers will always have sin in their life 24/7.

To me, this belief is not consistent with Romans 13:14. Paul says put on the Lord Jesus and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

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No it doesn't say that.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ - We are to be like Christ, to put him on.
and make not provision for the flesh - The word provision here is that which is used to denote provident care, or preparation for future wants. It means, that we should not make it an object to gratify our lusts, or study to do this by laying up anything beforehand with reference to this design.
Don't put yourself in a position where you might do or say something that will provide for fleshly desire. or - to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Your human, you will make mistakes, we all do. Anyone that says they don't. First are liars, second call God a liar.

There are many days and even even many weeks I have not looked at women in lust. My eyes for my wife and for her alone.

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Don't argue the fact that you love your wife alone. But you have lusted after other women. According to God that is adultery. It is a sin and I you know you to do right and don't then that is a sin against you. Are you fallen? Does that mean you no longer belong to God. No, because we have an Advocate, Christ. It doesn't give us license to sin. It reminds us from who we are, that it's not about us. It's about Him. Just as all those scriptures you quoted above.

Do you think Jesus lied when He said to the Pharisees that they are gods instead of Jesus answering them directly in saying that He actually was God Almighty in the flesh?

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No he didn't because He was using Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. in Context to what He was asked. The Pharisees were the judges of that time and they were consider to be like god because they were ordained by God to judge righteously on criminal and civil matters.

In the Old Testament times, there was also the use of deception as a part fo the art of war.

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Chapter verse please.

God even had spies in the Old Testament.

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Chapter verse please on them lying about being spies.

But no. I cannot remember the last time I lied to anyone. That is not normal.

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But you have. As I have.
Have you ever stretched the truth? I'm sure you have...that's a lie.

After coming to Christ, I have never done this. This is a double, "no, no." in my book.
I have walked out of a room at work before once because they were taking the Lord's name in vain constantly. It vexed my soul for them to do such a horrible thing.

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I agree, I'm the same way.

We must be born again spiritually. We cannot justify sin. We have to believe God's Word in that it says that we can indeed overcome sin in this life here. Please re-read 1 Peter 4:1-2 in prayer. It says we can cease from sin and that we should not live the rest of our time here on this Earth to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God.

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I have read it many times.
Your right we are Born Again, but we are also to deny ourselves physically also. We cannot justify sin, your right and we don't.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh - Christ suffered for us in the flesh, beat, poked, stabbed and crucified. Yet while he was being tortured He never sinned, nor did He say a word.
, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:- Prepare ourselves for hard times, they will come, put our mind on Christ and we can come through these hard times with Christ as Christ.
for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;- When you do suffer in the flesh and have keep the faith you are not sinning.

The whole chapter is about what the church and the Children of God will go through at that time. And for what we will go through during our time. That we are to be like Christ in trials and tribulation.

I've discussed cherry picking before, please used Context.
I agree that we are to live like Christ, But because we are human and we are still living in this fleshly body. We must pray never ceasing, stay in His word. And examine ourselves because the enemy will use the fleshly desires to turn us away from God.

You obviously don't understand what I mean by a sinner saved by Grace. That's the truth. I once was a sinner and I was and still am Saved by the Grace of God. It doesn't mean that you can sin continuously and still be saved. Then you wouldn't be a Christian. you'd be a hypocrite.

Sorry, it does not appear that you agree with Galatians 5:16. "To fulfill the lusts of the flesh" is still being fulfilled by anyone who claims they are human and that they think that all believers commit serious sin every day. This is not the case for my life. Jesus changed my life for the better. I am not living the same way that I used to live. Serious sin does not control me day in and day out. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

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It doesn't in my life either. I will admit, there are times that I have said or done something that brought conviction to me and I have had to go to the altar and ask for forgiveness.

Just as David says:

Psalm 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

He was consider a man after God's own heart. And He asked God to remove any wicked way in Him.

Paul said He was the Chief of sinners:

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He says "of whom I am chief." not, "of whom I was chief"

But he wasn't a sinner. It's called being humble. We admit that we have sinned, that we have been Born Again, by grace through faith alone by Christ alone. And that He works in us and on us daily. And during that time, because we are human, we will make a mistake, we will sin. But we are no longer condemned by the Law for sin, for we are under God's grace, and we have an advocate Christ Jesus. We just go to him and ask him to forgive us and it's done.
In know way have I said that a man can sin continually and still be saved. I say if you claim to be a Child of God and then you live in sin continually....you may need to reevaluate where you stand with God. Because you can't live that way and still be saved.

As you just did, you say serious sin does not control me day in and day out. So it only controls you at certain times? What is a serious sin? How many non serious sins do you have to commit one serious sin?

First, notice Paul does not refer to those who are not beloved of God or sinners (who continue in sin) saved by grace.

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Yeah, you don't understand the saying "sinner saved by grace" I describe it above. But just in case you missed it.

I means that I was a sinner and I was saved by grace. It's quite self explanatory. But it doesn't mean a continual sinner saved by grace..which it could. When I was in sin, I continually did it and denied Christ. Until the Lord called me and convicted me by the law and saved me by His grace.
So, if you don't understand something, just ask. Don't assume.

Second, Paul can talk to believers and yet also refer to a WRONG WAY of salvation or a WRONG WAY of grace. There is a difference between Paul speaking to an AUDIENCE in general in whom to he is writing versus (vs.) the POINT Paul is trying to make in regards to a FALSE BELIEF. Paul is writing to the church who are faithful but there are some among them who struggle with going back to the Old Testament Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Commands within the Old Testament). Romans 3:1 sets up this context. "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? " (Romans 3:1). Paul is speaking against "Circumcision Salvationism" because some of them struggled in going back to the Law of Moses by saying they had to be circumcised so as to be saved (Which is a wrong belief). Paul's point is that they are saved initially and ultimately saved by God's grace in Romans 3 and not by keeping any Law of Moses like circumcision. Just do a keyword search on the variation of the word "circumcision" and it will tell you that this is the context most of the time when Paul uses the word "Law."

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Okay, you forgot why I posted that I see.
You commented that Romans 1 wasn't written to Christians...and that's incorrect.

It is an oxymoron to say they are faithful believers and yet they are also sinners (in the present tense) saved by God's grace. That would be like a King who says his servant was faithful while he was selling secrets to the enemy. That would be like a husband who says he is faithful to his wife and yet he sleeps around.

Explained above. If it's such a stumbling block for you I won't repeat it. But it's quite simple.

Okay. Stop right here!

Please. Please. Just slowly read 1 John 3:10. It refutes your belief in the fact that you think that a believer does not have to do righteousness and still be of God. For 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. John 3:20 says everyone who does evil hates the light.

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Show me where I say that.

Paul is talking about the Old Law and not the New Law.
This is evident if you were to read 1 John 3:23. Unless of course you do not believe you are under the Command (salvation wise) in regards to 1 John 3:23. So no. We are under certain laws or commands that does deal with our salvation. So what you are saying is not true. Paul was not speaking against "Law" in general. Paul was talking about the Old Law.

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No He wasn't.
Paul was a studied man, He studied under Gamaliel, he was a Jewish law teacher.
He knew the law. He also knew that Christ didn't come to get rid of the law but to fulfill it.
He also knew that Christ used the 10 commandments to witness with. Paul also knew the law the 10 commandments, where what convicted Him for He knew not sin without knowing the law.
Yes, it was the Old law. The 10 commandments.

You are speaking from your experience and not the Word of God.

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Your partly right, because I am human, I get tempted. So do you. But the part your incorrect about is this is scripturally backed.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

How can one help them if they themselves also are struggling with sin day in and day out?
Remember, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for not obeying God's Word.
A drowning person cannot save another person who is drowning.

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Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Renew your mind. How do we do that? By studying God's Word. All of it. OT and NT. Remember when Jesus was here and the Apostles and all. They all said, it is written, or from the scriptures or from moses and the prophets. Which scripture are they talking about...it isn't the new testament, it wasn't around. Yep, the OT.
When your mind is renewed. You will be thinking on the things of God, things that are pure and holy. Not on the things you used to do, or your desires, He will change all that.
Your right about that we don't have to sin. And we do our very best not to. We study His Word, We pray and We go to Church and Praise God. But we still make mistakes.
Just as Paul said here:

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Remember, Jesus said things like,

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" (Matthew 23:15).

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Yes he did.
You know why? Because the Pharisees weren't following the law or the prophets either. They knew that there would be a messiah. They knew the prophecies, but they ignored them. They did what they wanted and they did it there way. And when they found someone, they would spread those false doctrines to others. It's like a bad virus. the Pharisees, having to be the host. They found someone and that person would get the virus...but it would be worse on that person, than it would be on the Pharisee.

The process of Justification not only includes Initial Salvation but it also continues through out a believer's life. A believer will not stop believing in Jesus as their Savior. They will not stop believing that He had died and was risen again. Granted, some believers have turned away from the truth. Some have fallen away from the faith by teaching that the bodily resurrection of the saints has already happened.

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Someone who has dedicated His heart and has truly been Born Again, will not want to sin, nor will they feel the desire to do so. They will want to serve God, be in His will and go out and spread the Gospel.
If someone falls away from God. Called backsliding. Would have to slide forward first. They may have not been saved in the first place.
You might want to reread that paragraph...you kinda contradict yourself.

17 "And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:17-18).

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Okay.

The word sanctified means to be made holy or to set apart. We are to be holy in conduct because the Bible teaches that there is a Sanctification process (i.e. Holy living) that we must go through in order to continue in God's grace or salvation.

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I would recommend checking out this CF thread link below on Sanctification in how it relates to our salvation.[/q

In laying upon the foundation of God's saving grace, does Sanctification (holy living) also save?

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Edmond Smith · May 28, 2017

helping said:
What does one need to do to get to Heaven ??? What does one need to do to get to Hell ???

What does one need to do to get into Heaven?

The short answer.

Repent of your sins and place your trust in Jesus.

To continue living for Him and stay right with God. Read your bible daily and pray. Find you a Bible believing God fearing Church and attend.

But there is really nothing you can do. It's God that draws people nigh unto Him. It's Christ that forgives sins and it's the Holy Spirit that comforts and teaches those who have become Born Again.

What does one need to do to get to Hell?

Continue living in sin. Denying God and staying in rebellion with God.

or

Continue transgressing God's law... which is sin.
When you sin, you sin directly against God. Which stacks up wrath against you for the judgement.

They mean the same thing. In sin, your an enemy of God

The Eternality of Hell

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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