Origin of Satan

he-man said:

I learned first of all what many scholars have pointed out: that while angels often appear in the Hebrew Bible, Satan, along with other fallen angels or demonic beings, is virtually absent. Source: MY COPY of The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels, introduction xvi, Copyright 1995

Click to expand...

I heard of this book but never read it. But does this book also say there was a time when angels as we know them didnt exist in the OT? For example names for angels such as Michael and Raphael are first found in Daniel probably for good reason as names signified Gods within a heirarchial pantheon. Yet in the Torah angels whether good or bad are nothing more than a manifestation coming forth from God, hence the burning bush is viewed as God, other examples in Exodus 12:23, Judges 6:12-14, 1 Samuel 16:13-14.

All these ideas evolve, the post-exilic hebrew people under Moses never knew of archangels, Moses never mentioned a Gabriel and the evil spirit proceeded from the Lord as did His Holy Spirit (See 1Sam 19:9 ) but by the time of the NT this evil spirit was a figure commonly refered to as Satan (John 13:27).

And yes I know originally Christ was not Jesus actual last name and that there was a time in around 33ad that all christians called Jesus "the christ' just like satan is usually called 'the satan' in the OT but over time within a few years as evidenced by Paul it became Jesus Christ.

CrystalDragon said:

Again, there is nothing in Genesis or any Old Testament thing that implies Satan was "cursed" or anything at all. Satan was an attorney in Job and that's it.

Click to expand...

Correct. Satan is certainly not in Genesis. What is there is just a "Garden" variety talking serpent and yes the serpent was cursed. So was the ground but Adam and Eve were not. In the ancient world when a story was told with a moral lesson, it was common to alert the reader with a bit of gross exaggeration --- like a talking animal. Such stories are frequently called fables.

he-man said:

And what is your source of spurious Pseudepigraphical writings (other than the canonical books and the Apocrypha) professing to be Biblical in character spurious or pseudonymous writings, especially Jewish writings ascribed to various biblical patriarchs and prophets?

Click to expand...

The "source" is their existence. I didn't say pseudopigraphical writings have any authority. But they do exist from the period prior to the New Testament. They are Jewish in authorship, patriarchal or prophetic authority notwithstanding. And some mention Satan.

he-man said:

Why does Paul and Matthew sat that angels are immortal? 1Co 15:42 for they are equal unto the angels; in spirituality, purity and immortality; See Gill on Mat 22:30. But are as the angels of God in heaven; or, as in Luke, "are equal unto the angels" [...] So where does that leave your immortal Satan angel if he cannot die and is immortal?

Click to expand...

I don't know what relevance this has to anything I had to say. I only argued that Satan is mentioned prior to the New Testament. He is not "absent" from the Old Testament. And he is mentioned in other writings in the pre-New Testament period. The mortality or immortality of man, angels, or devils has no bearing on the fact of Satan's literary existence.

There is no belief in spirit messengers(angels) in Genesis neither. The only spirit creatures mentioned in Genesis are cherub which are non angelic. God is in plural Elohim reflecting the pagan culture that permeated. The 3 angels that visited Abraham at the Oak of Mamre are described as 3 men and recognized as God (Genesis 18:1-3). When these three men split up the two are recognized and clearly described as human messengers not spirit beings, not only by Lot but obviously by the people of Sodom who wanted Intercourse with them and the one 'man' that remained and conversed with Abraham was called Lord. The Sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6 are most likely humans, the interpretation of fallen angels is really stretching it.
Jacob wrestling with the angel is only described as a man and then reveals himself and is recognized by Jacob as God himself. And the only other mysterious "otherwordly" figure is Melchizedek. A person never truly explained as to who or what he is.

Yes all these things evolved. They weren't delivered in an instant by Moses.

he-man said:

SATAN – ...likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a ...distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the ...characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor... Jewish demonology can at no time be viewed as the outcome of an antecedent Hebrew belief. While the nomadic Hebrews had much in common with the Arabian Bedouins in their belief in spirits (see Wellhausen, "Reste Arabischen Heidenthums: Skizzen und Vorarbeiten," 1887, iii. 135 et seq.; Smith, "Rel. of Sem." 1889, pp. 112-125, 422 et seq.), JewishEncyclopedia.com
Job 2:10　 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.　
Job_19:21　 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to argue with you over semantics. If you want to believe there was no Satan, be my guest. I disagree with you.

AFrazier said:

I'm not going to argue with you over semantics. If you want to believe there was no Satan, be my guest. I disagree with you.

Click to expand...

Is it really important that we all believe in Satan? Isnt the belief in God/Jesus the only requirement for Salvation? I AM the Lord and besides Me there is no other. The Lord our God is One.. Is it right to believe that this other person/god exists?

RaymondG said:

Is it really important that we all believe in Satan? Isnt the belief in God/Jesus the only requirement for Salvation? I AM the Lord and besides Me there is no other. The Lord our God is One.. Is it right to believe that this other person/god exists?

Click to expand...

No big deal. No need to ponder it even. But if your a Christian you acknowledge his existence everytime you recite the Lord's Prayer.

he-man said:

SATAN – ...likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a ...distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the ...characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor.

Click to expand...

I think this is a weak argument of the author when taking the Job account. This satan of Job 1:17 makes clear that he simply wanders and goes "to and fro" . There is no evidence he is a member of some divine council that presumably had their "offices" in [third] heaven.
In fact I should be flattered as a Greek Orthodox christian by her entire theory of a celestial prosecutor because what she is describing is not the conclusion of studying OT texts. She has actually borrowed her entire theory from certain demonology teaching of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Yeshua Himself says HaSatan exists. Also, yes there is immortality, BUT, this CAN be destroyed in the 2nd death...one from which there is no being born again from...in the lake of fire...

Click to expand...

Ive read “satan” is just a generic term for an adversarial role. " Is that bibical?

CrystalDragon said:

Again, there is nothing in Genesis or any Old Testament thing that implies Satan was "cursed" or anything at all. Satan was an attorney in Job and that's it.

Click to expand...

Okay.

JackRT said:

There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. That anyone would draw that conclusion is, to me, somewhat naive.

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that Satan IS NOT the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up these concepts (and more!) during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Exilic Jews found the concept of a near-Supreme Being of Evil interesting. They borrowed it because it got God off the hook for the suffering and evil in the world, providing him with a scapegoat. God was now all-good! Satan was made into the Devil as a result of this alien dualism, since his function as a prosecutor was so unwelcome to the Jews. And retroactively what was only actually a talking serpent in the Garden of Eden was identified as the Devil as well.

To most modern Christians, the concept of the Devil is a conflation of the serpent of Genesis, the Lucifer of Isaiah and the Satan of Job. This conflation is further supplemented by lurid medieval fiction like Dante's "Inferno".

Might it not be better to set these images aside and simply take responsiblity for our own evil thoughts and deeds?

Click to expand...

jackrt,

1 You don't understand proper Biblical Hermeneutics.
Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28 and Matthew 16:21-23 are what is called Double reference.
In Matthew, Jesus said, get behind me Satan for you don't savor the things of God. Christ called Peter Satan even though he was not Satan.
Satan didn't savor the things of God on purpose and was using Peter's ignorance of God's plan of redemption.
Ezekiel 25:15-17, God destroyed the Philistines and cut off the Cherethims and destroyed the remnant of the sea coast which would have been Tyrus. Ezekiel 25:16; 26.
Ezekiel 26,27 is addressed to Tyrus.
Tyrus would be taken over by Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon which was North of Tyrus Ezekiel 26:7.
Tyrus was a merchant of the people for many isles and said was of perfect beauty Ezekiel 27:3.
Ezekiel 25-27 is all about the mighty sea coast city of Tyrus that God would destroy Ezekiel 27:32.

2. Ezekiel 28:2 the Prince of Tyrus was a man in that day.
Ezekiel 28:9 but thou shalt be a man is future.
Both the earthly prince of Tyrus and the future Antichrist are examples of pride and claiming themselves as God Ezekiel 28:2,9 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 known as the son of Perdition.

3. Verse 15 addresses the King of Tyrus which was the originator of pride who was the sum, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
There are spirit beings that occupy regions of earth that influence the physical kings of the earth.
A). The King of Tyrus only was in the original Garden of Eden in the day he was created. The prince of Tyrus had to accumulate his riches.
B). The King of Tyrus only was the anointed cherub upon the real mountain of God. The prince of Tyrus was the sea coast mogul.
C). The King of Tyrus only was created perfect until sin was found in him. The prince of Tyrus was conceived in sin like David said and because of Adam sinning.
Ezekiel 28:16-18 was punishment for the King of Tyrus who is none other than Lucifer from Isaiah 14:12-14.
Isaiah 14:4 is prophetic to the King of Babylon, the golden city ceased is an allusion to Revelation 18:10.
Verse 12; Lucider, the son of morning was cut down to the ground and weakened the nations which harmonizes with Ezekiel 28:18.
Lucifer was the original pridemaster and the only one to rebel against God in the Heavens and get kicked back down to earth and Hell is his final destination for it was made originally for him and his angels who rebelled with him which is located in the lower parts of the earth. This all stems from Lucifer fallen from Heaven literally verse 12. The King of Babylon never did this.
You are spiritualizing as in allegorical interpretation and that is not rightly dividing the word.
Your contextual hermeneutics are wrong.
There is no wishful thing on the real truth. You are the one who has the naive pov.

4. Lucifer was an angel and angels are called sons of God as in Job 1:6.
However, in Job 1:6 the sons of God are God's angels as witnesses and Satan was among them. He was no longer a true son of God in the truest sense.
Satan was not a prosecuting attorney for God. That is absurd.
Revelation 12:9; the great dragon, the old serpent is called the Devil and Satan and the accuser of the brethren.
Job was specific to show no matter what Job would not forsake him even if he slayed him.
This stems from the Great confrontation between God and Satan from the beginning before Adam and will end in Revelation 20:10 in the lake of fire.

5. Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:11-18 prove Satan's origin before Adam.
Genesis 3 proves Satan was already fallen working through the serpent because he had the knowledge of Good and evil which man did not.
Jesus understood creation and the truth about Satan from the beginning as a real entity not metaphorical and you think he just learned it as passed down from Zorastrianism?
Jews are atheists because of believing satans lies who Jesus said he was the Father of lies.
The Babylonian Talmud was mostly traditions of men and Kabbalah and many other mystic Jewish nonsense are not real Jews just like Paul said in Romans 2 because they do not believe the truth and are blinded. This is another reason they are atheists and don't believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world and divine etc. They believe he was a mere good man and teacher. This is like Islam and Christadelphians etc.

6. Why not put aside false history of misunderstanding the Word of God.
Everybody has to take their responsibility for their sin because on Judgement day it is just a person and God.
Satan already has his sentence of punishment in hell because it was created for him and his angels.
He is our adversary because he is the prince of the power of the air, etc. and we have to put on the armor of God to withstand the wiles of the devil.
The devil is real and was not created by man but God Ezekiel 28:15.
Get out of humanism and intellectualism and wrong hermeneutics and get into the truth of God's word and rightly dividing the word of God. Jerry kelso

mcarmichael said:

Doubt your source.

Click to expand...

i don't dare doubt the One Who is really true God, though i dare test spirits

Blessings

toLiJC said:

i don't dare doubt the One Who is really true God, though i dare test spirits

Blessings

Click to expand...

Likewise.

mcarmichael said:

Maybe you missed the Apocalypse of St. John?

Click to expand...

Yes, there is that - the only connection being that Satan and "Hell" (should read "the Grave") are both tossed into the Lake of Fire.

Much more interesting in the Revelation is that just before the judgments of 20:4 and 20:11 Satan is taken out of the way, so you could say that the "prosecutor's chair" will be empty.

r

he-man said:

Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a ...distinct being was not then known. JewishEncyclopedia.com

Click to expand...

Has the argument that the angel opposing Balaam justifies a belief in a Satan ever actually been made? If it has, it would be totally illogical since clearly that angel was a holy angel doing God's will.

As for Israel not having the slightest notion of any entity which was in opposition to God from the very start, that sounds a bit quaint since obviously the serpent spoke just as the mule spoke and the mule spoke only because it was being used as a puppet by an angelic being. Even a child can see what that obviously implies concerning that serpent's ability to do the same.

Furthermore we have another direct reference here:

Chronicles 21:1 says, “Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.”

Click to expand...

We also have references to the angels who are in league with Satan-the demons which are mentioned in the NT as shuddering at the thought of God:

James 2:19 ESV
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Click to expand...

Deut. 32:16-17: “They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. They sacrificed to demons, which are not God —.”

Click to expand...

Psalms 106:36-38: “They worshipped their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons....”

Click to expand...

So the mention of Satan and demons was not some new concept that Jesus and his apostle suddenly introduced to the Jews out of the clear blue. In fact, the Jews themselves accused Jesus of being in league with the Devil whom they referred to as the prince of demons..

Matthew 9:34
But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that He drives out demons."

Click to expand...

They also had the book of Job which explicitly refers to an entity in opposition to God and refers to him as Satan..

Job 1
day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Click to expand...

We also have Ezekiel's reference to an entity in Eden who opposed and had been debased just as described in Genesis.

Ezekiel 28:14-17

Here is the original source of the internal, self-centered influence in mankind's hearts; this is where sin began in the distant past. From this being, sin spread to other angels; and from them into mankind, beginning with Adam and Eve; and from them on to all of mankind. Notice how God clearly describes that his sins had their birth in his prideful feelings about himself, and in turn, this corrupted his wisdom.
Ezekiel 28:15 (KJV) - Forerunner Commentary

Click to expand...

So Christians mentioning Satan as the great opposer of God could not have come as some drastic cultural shock to the Jews as some are suggesting.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

He hates man and wishes for our destruction because God loves us.

Click to expand...

Do you think these Youtube comments are speculation or false? Either way it is irrelevant.

The story about Satan and demons being desperately angry at us because they are hopelessly heading to eternal lake of fire, is a very terrible. In that story demons are trying to drag us into evilness because they are hopeless, because they cannot get to Heaven anymore, because there is nothing else to do. This is a false picture, which makes God look to be a monster who decided to burn Satan and his angels for eternity and gave them a little time to drag people with them.

The reality is, Satan and demons surely do hate us and tries to drag us into sin, but not because they are hopeless and has nothing else to do. The reason they hate us is because it is their core nature, they love to hate, they love to destroy, to kill, to create chaos, pain and suffering. They have created Hell itself, the worst horror place universally achievable and because of that, they are judged.

Click to expand...