Dispensational???

1stcenturylady said:

During each individual administration, do you remember anything in that administration ceasing? I don't. So why do some in our New Covenant claim the gifts of the Spirit have ceased?

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Well, banishment ceased when it shifted to human government. Blood for blood in the case of murder. From the Judges to the Kings, a single Judge appointed by God became kings via lineage, in spite of God. Practices from the period of promise changed when the law was given. The law was abolished when the period of Grace came in.

So, yes, I do see things from each administration changing and ceasing, replaced by other things.

But the gifts of the Spirit ... I personally think that anyone who believes they are gone is unrealistic. While I do not believe that everyone babbling nonsense is speaking in tongues, and while I do not believe that charlatans on television have the gift of healing in most instances, I do believe that God can give whatever gifts he chooses to whomever he pleases to give them. And I further believe that the lack of any manifestation of the gifts in our modern day has more to do with a lack of faith than with a lack of gifts being available for those who believe.

You have to remember ... you have to believe without doubting. That's more difficult than it sounds, and it sounds pretty hard. If I pick up a ball and throw it, I have no doubt that I can throw it. I have no doubt that it will go in the direction I throw it. I have no doubt that it will eventually hit the ground. I don't speak the throw into existence, and then speak it again and again, while my mind wonders, "will it actually go through the air when I attempt to do this." It's going to happen. I know it will. It's not something I even question.

But now compare that to healing the sick or raising the dead. I don't know that it's going to work. I say that I believe it will work. But deep down, I doubt that it will.

The apostles had the advantage of Jesus showing them. It's like having someone hold the back of your bicycle seat while you learn to ride. Eventually you can do it on your own. But while you learn to have the confidence, someone needs to push you a little. We don't have the advantage of someone to hold the seat. We have to just believe that we can ride the bicycle, though we have never seen the bicycle ridden before by anyone we know. We don't know how to ride the bicycle. Most of us don't even know how to start. We just hop up on the bike and fall over, because no one was ever there to show us firsthand how to push the pedals and make it go.

In my view, that's why gifts don't exist today. Not because they can't, but because none of us truly believe in them with the absolute surety of knowing they will happen versus believing that they can.

HI I am going to give you a few scriptures and they will blow your mind. The 1st is a prophecy in Luke about Jesus who was yet to be born. Zacharias was mute and when he named John he mouth was loosed
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
To note Jesus is the horn who is going to save Israel from their enemies and all who hate them. After they are delivered they will serve God in holiness and righteousness all the days of their lives. The promise to Abraham is mentioned and that promise is to his descendants they will have the land of Canaan as an eternal possession. Note also Israel is referred to as holy and righteous so a transformation has taken place. Ill show you when that happens shortly.

In the Gospel Jesus took up the scroll of Isaiah 61 and read a portion of it and said today this is fulfilled. Jesus stopped in mid sentence and the rest of the prophecy of Isaiah 61
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

In this passage many of the accomplishments of the day of vengeance are noted. As Luke spoke also of a day when from that day on things would be different this too adds more specifics to that day. It starts with turning mourning into joy and a spirit of joy from a spirit of heaviness and this is specific to those in Zion. The 7 year tribulation is the day of vengeance. The 2nd coming is when they mourn and when they are delivered from their enemies exactly as Luke 1 said they would be.

Zech 14 ties all these together as it is clearly the 2nd coming of Jesus.
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

This is Armageddon and Israel is being overrun by the nations. The LORD stands upon the Mt of Olives and it splits in two.

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.[fn]
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

This is a special day at night it is daylight and it is the day the LORD (Jehova) is king over all the earth. It says he comes with his saints. This is Jesus coming with his saints. In that day they say the LORD is one. This is it! This is when Israel recognizes that Jesus is Jehova are one God, They are converted right then. The rest of this passage shows the LORD being king over all the earth and a continuation of life on this earth as the nations are now required to come and keep the feast of tabernacles every years or they get no rain. In Zech 12 there is a glimpse of this same day.
7 “The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.[fn] 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.

So here we have it Israel delivered by Jesus from there enemies and from that day on they serve in holiness and safety. We have them confessing God is one. We see the mourning they go through when they look upon Me whom they pierced. All of this is coming together.

Galatea said:

Dispensationalists do not believe that Israel was saved by works. Salvation was always by faith.

This is an error in presentating what Dispensationalism teaches.

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There have been Dispensationalists who do teach that the Gospel, and therefore grace, is entirely temporary, something that is for the Gentiles in a parenthesis which began when the Jews rejected the kingdom Christ offered (their wording, not mine) and which will end with the taking away of the Church from the world; and thus this "age of grace" will come to a close. This suggests, even if only implicitly, that salvation by grace by the Gospel is itself parenthetical; and that God's administration through the Law is the "normative" way of righteousness. All of this is deeply and terribly problematic because it reduces the Gospel from God's central point of all creation to something entirely temporary and parenthetical.

-CryptoLutheran

I've never saw the point of dispensational or covenant theology. They appear to have been developed to interpret end times prophecy. Dispensationalists have some truly complicated scenerio, apparently they think the seals, trumpets and vials of wrath happen simultaneously. The chronological order of Revelations couldn't be more straight forward, seals at the beginning, trumpets in the middle, vials at the end.

I guess since I never took a pretrib rapture seriously dispensationalism was never of interest. I do like the word, it's from the Greek word oikious, it lit. means 'house' expanded meaning is to manage a household. Expanded further it's the idea of economics. Where it starts getting weird is the idea that the church age is the age of grace, try Romans 4, it's always been by grace.

1stcenturylady said:

Then what is your interpretation of Daniel 9:27.

"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Doesn't it require a third temple, after the 2nd one was destroyed in 70 A.D. that verse 26 refers to?

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Only by assuming that the passage refers to the still future. More than likely the text is referring to the events which preceded the Maccabean Revolt. When Antiochus IV Epiphanes inherited the Seleucid Empire the Seleucids managed to secure a victory over Ptolemaic Egypt, conquering Judea and ultimately imposing a harsh and brutal program of forced Hellenization upon the Jewish populace, this also included the abomination that causes desolation, when Antiochus had a pig sacrificed in the Holy of Holies. With the success of the Maccabean Revolt the Jews overthrew the Seleucid oppressors and a free and independent Judean state resulted--at least until the Romans came in over a hundred years later.

-CryptoLutheran

Read these...take an aspirin...and call me in the morning.

Dispensationalist theology - Wikipedia

Dispensational theology refers to the unified teachings of "Dispensationalism" that address
what other views teach as "divergent theologies" in the Old Testament and New Testament.
Its name reflects a view that "biblical history" is best understood as a series of "dispensations", or
>>>separated time-periods, in the Bible.<<<
Each dispensation is said to represent a different way (method/economy) in which God deals with man.
Some writers also believe that it also involves a different testing of Man.

Dispensationalism - Wikipedia

John MacArthur and Dispensationalism

1stcenturylady said:

But then you would have the coming and death of Jesus BEFORE Antiochus Epiphanes IV!

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You're assuming that "messiah the prince" is Jesus, where it probably is referring to King Cyrus of Persia. The call to rebuild the temple was Jeremiah's prophecy, which is fulfilled with the decree of Cyrus who God elsewhere calls "My anointed" (Hebrew: meshiach). Cyrus is a messiah, but not the Messiah; Daniel isn't talking about the Messiah, but rather King Cyrus.

-CryptoLutheran

Whew......... how can a discussion become so drawn out and complicated? Does God not know what is going to happen? Does He have to pause (oops) then come up with a "new" plan? A dispensation is the view of life's changing events from our perspective. We explain what God "did" in order to "adjust" His program. Egads.

The simple Truth is that the events we view and record are the unfolding of the Plan of God. His plan always IS; it doesn't change, or need adjustment.

We can label His unfolding as dispensations or revelations or administrations until the cows come home, or we can Spiritually embrace God's amazing pathway, there from the beginning, right into the New Heaven and New Earth.

Incidentally..... Grace (always there) came into view with Abram (Abraham) for Jew and Gentile, and continues today. We still stumble over it. Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, believing totally from your innermost that God raised Him from the dead, and what? ____________. (fill in the blank).

To me every thing changed at resurrection + appearances + ascension = PROOF that Jesus had risen.

What is dispensationalism? Please explain it to me as if I was a 6 year old.

Luca Lalsie said:

What is dispensationalism? Please explain it to me as if I was a 6 year old.

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The history of the world is divided into a number of dispensations, or administrations--periods of time in which God's relationship with people is established in a certain order or way; generally Dispensationalism says there are seven dispensations,

1 Dispensation of Innocence - Creation to the Fall
2 Dispensation of Conscience - From the expulsion from the Garden until the Flood
3 Dispensation of Human Government - From Noah to Abraham
4 Dispensation of Promise - From Abraham to Moses
5 Dispensation of the Law - from Moses until Christ
6 (Dispensation of Grace) - A parenthesis in which God temporarily turns away from His work with Israel to focus on the Gentiles, lasting from Christ's resurrection/Pentecost/or some other moment (different sorts of Dispensationalism offer different views) until "the Rapture"
7 Dispensation of the Kingdom - Christ's future return to reign as king for a thousand years on the earth until the Great White Throne Judgment

Israel and the Church are two separate peoples with two separate destinies. Israel are God's earthly people who are promised the land promised to Abraham who will, ultimately, inherit the earth. The Church is God's heavenly people. There are different promises, different covenants, different eternal purposes for both peoples; the Church exists because of a parenthesis when the Jewish people refused the offer to receive God's kingdom through Jesus so instead Jesus was crucified, was raised up from the dead, and the establishment of the Church and the Gospel message to reach out to the Gentiles for a time. God's backup plan, as it were; but God will eventually return to His initial plan by taking the Church out of the world via "the Rapture".

"The Rapture" is an event, believed by Dispensationalists, in which Jesus will snatch away either a portion of or the whole of the Christian Church directly into heaven, usually with the belief that this happens just preceding a seven year period of intense tribulation, divided into two parts, the first 3.5 years will be relatively mild, but the second 3.5 years are known as "The Great Tribulation" in which the Antichrist will assume full power and wage a fierce contest against "the saints"; the saints here being, chiefly, believing Jews who will number 144,000--the tribulation will serve as a catalyst to bring the unbelieving Jews to faith in Jesus as the Messiah, in part because the Antichrist will desolate the future Jewish Temple and declare himself divine and demand that the whole world bow down and worship him.

At the close of the Great Tribulation a great war will break out, known as Armageddon, in the midst of this Jesus will return to wage war against the nations, destroying the armies of the Antichrist, and take up the seat of kingly power in Jerusalem to reign for a thousand years. At the end of the literal thousand years Satan, who had been temporary held in bondage, will be let loose, instigate an army for battle against Jerusalem, but before they can do anything a fire will come down from heaven and consume them all; then the Great White Throne judgment when all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into a lake burning with fire and sulfur. Then a heavenly city will descend upon the earth in which the righteous will dwell forever.

In a broad nutshell. That's Dispensationalism. And it is regarded by the vast majority of Christians as little more than utter nonsense, a 19th century theological fiction dreamed up by a fringe loosely Protestant sect.

-CryptoLutheran

Luca Lalsie said:

What is dispensationalism? Please explain it to me as if I was a 6 year old.

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See post #50 on page 3.

1stcenturylady said:

As I've told you I'm asking what people on the forum mean when they speak (mainly against) dispensationalism. For instance, I see many changes in laws by God. Are each one of them considered a dispensation?

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My introduction to Dispensationalism was slow. I attended a Pentecostal church and was Baptised there; I believe they were Dispensationalists; They disagreed with my understanding of scripture but I had not heard of Dispensationalism; they introduced me to Ivan Panin who proved God wrote the Bible; Panin now deceased, had been a Pentecostal Pastor, one of his booklets was a refutation of Dispensationalism, "The Gospel and the Kingdom", still available from Canada for little more that the postage. You wont learn from the Booklet what Dispensationalism is, Panin assumes the reader knows; The only dispensation that Panin was concerned about was the here and now and the effect of Dispensationalism on the Kingdom and on the Gospel. Panin makes a good case concerning things most would not give consideration to; and he concludes that Dispensationalism requires a new Gospel, a new Kingdom and a New Bible; and of course Dispensationalism has all three.

1stcenturylady said:

I see many posts pro and con about dispensations. What are the different dispensations that we argue over and why?

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1st centurylady,

1. Dispensation is a stewardship of the covenant man was under at the time.

2. Adam and Eve were created sinless and their stewardship was to have dominion over all the earthly creation and not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They sinned and were kicked out and lost the physical KoH and the spiritual rule of the heart KoG.
We cannot be under that exact stewardship for it is not the same as the next dispensation where God dealt with sinful man by their conscience.
Romans 2:12-16 shows different revelations in different ages and how they will be judged accordingly. God has to judge righteously according to the knowledge they were given.

3. Salvation by grace was and is and will always be grace because it is unmerited favor of God he would save any man.
At the same time the revelations were different and salvation to come of the cross was veiled in types and shadows from Genesis 3:15 till Jesus started telling more plainly after the Jews rejected the KoH and the KoG message. Read Matthew 4:17; Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20-21 and Matthew 23:37-39.

4. All Old Testament saints saved by believing by faith according to their revelation.
When Jesus came he taught the KoH and the KoG message.
Jesus Christ was the transition to the cross and the reality.
Jesus didn't teach his death, burial, and resurrection to the Jews in his earthly ministry. They were to believe he was the Messiah and that he could save from sin.
Matthew 16:21-23 shows that Peter didn't have a clue what the death, burial and resurrection of Christ was. John 6:53-70 shows the same thing. Luke 24 Jesus has to reintierate what the law and the prophets said about him and the cross.
Acts 1:6-7 the disciples were still focused on the KoH message which will happen.

5. All Old Testament saints were saved but not to the uttermost or completion until the cross. This is why we were perfected together Hebrews 11:40.
The Old Testament saints were saved but in a holding pattern till the cross.
If a person has a credit card and the money is in there the purchase is good but not finalized till the transaction goes through. Hebrews 9:16-17 that the New Covenant had to have the death of the testator.
One salvation plan that had gradual revelation and had different ways to attain to even though believing by faith were always required.

6. The NC was prophesied to the nation of Israel Jeremiah 31:31-34.
As a nation they have not received the NC yet. Why? Because the whole nation has to be saved Romans 11:25-29.
The Kingdom reign as the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 is an eternal truth Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7. It is unconditional overall but it conditioned by Israel's obedience. It will happen in the future Isaiah 66:7-9.

7. The church is not a parenthesis because it was prescribed before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:3-5 and Paul explains the mystery of the church in Ephesians 2 and 3 which the Jews didn't understand till Acts 10 with the vision of the clean and unclean to Peter and later more in depth with Paul in his ministry to the Gentiles. The revelation was gradual and given to the apostles and prophets Ephesians 3:5.
The church will be in the KoH reign as Kings, Priests and Rulers Revelation 5:9-10. The church is being trained right now for rulership in the kingdom 2 Timothy 2:12.
Israel has to be purged from their sin in the time of Jacob's trouble in order to come to obedience and enter the KoH reign Jeremiah 30:5; Daniel 9:24-27; 12:1; Matthew 24:14-21 etc.

8. I will stop here but suffice to say every system can be interpreted wrong and mis understood by wrong terms but God wants us to understand his word in his proper perspective.
The systems can cause stereotypes and miss certain truths because of it.
The covenants and dispensations work together in their proper perspective and the whole bible is for us in its proper context and perspective. Jerry kelso

Would seem God had a plan from the start and man keeps trying to tag a name to each part he does not understand. From Adam to now there have been different things going on. God never seems to do the same thing twice. Not sure who this got twisted to end times.. not the topic

1stcenturylady said:

Thank you. I appreciate your response to my question.

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1st centurylady,
School of thoughts can help to keep things organized to help understand what one believes.
The other side of the coin can be a hindrance of sticking to closely to exact set patterns systematically.
For example, Dispensationalism starts with a favorable beginning, what the goal was etc and ends with judgement.
Even though this is a true pattern details can go awry depending on one's hermeneutics.
I hope what I said helps to keep an open mind and not jump the gun because one could miss some important truth. God bless! Jerry kelso