The Eternality of Hell

vinsight4u said:

Isaiah 66
they shall go forth...look upon..they shall be abhorring

Daniel 12 - some -
rise to what? shame/repoach
everlasting contempt/abhorring

As long as people on the new earth are keeping the new moons and the sabbaths - then the wickeds will keep being viewed and abhorring them.

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Jason0047 said:

But your point here doesn't make any sense. Her point does. There is no point to resurrect people bodily if we all just have immortality already (By having immortal souls). Who cares if our body continues on or not. We can be like angels and still continue on. But only Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). It is only through Jesus we can truly live forever. Without Jesus and their is no eternal life. Jesus says He came to give us life and that we may have it more abundantly. I do not see how Jesus will be living in the wicked and giving them eternal life and immortality just so as to suffer for all time. Not only is that sick and saddistic, but it is not fair and just judgment by any means (and you know it).


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Edmond Smith said:

I know it's perfectly fair. Even God asked that question in Ezekiel

Ezekiel 18:21-32 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

He is extremely fair. He didn't have to send His Son to die for us. To take the wrath that you and I should have taken. He didn't have to offer Salvation at all. He could have wiped the world out again and started all over again. He wanted to, but Moses asked Him not to. You see, we are saved by grace through faith and Christ alone.
You do understand that grace means that we receive something that we don't deserve. If we got what we deserved we'd all go to Hell. But because of God's fairness and His love, mercy, grace, justice and righteousness. We don't have to go.
So saying He is unfair. Is the understandment of a life time.
Job kinda of felt that way near the end of His trials. He had a problem though and Elihu pointed it out to Him.

Elihu thinks that Job has been wrong in some of what he has said—indeed, he sees pride and arrogance in Job's attitude (see 33:17; 35:12; 36:9). In 33:8–12 he puts his finger on Job's error:

Surely, you have spoken in my hearing, and I have heard the sound of your words. You say, "I am clean, without transgression; I am pure, and there is no iniquity in me. Behold [God] finds occasions against me, he counts me as his enemy; he puts my feet in the stocks, and watches all my paths." Behold in this you are not right.

Job is wrong to claim innocence at the expense of God's grace. We know that Elihu is right about this because in 42:6 Job does in fact repent: "I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." His suffering had driven him to say things about himself that were overly optimistic and things about God that were disrespectful. Even though Job was a righteous man, he was not a sinlessly perfect man. There was a sediment of pride that began to cloud the purity of his life when it was stirred up by suffering.

Then God took over. He never lost control.

Vers. 1-3. Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said. —

The address of the Almighty: — This sublime discourse is represented as made from the midst of the tempest or whirlwind which Elihu describes as gathering. In this address the principal object of God is to assert His own greatness and majesty, and the duty of profound submission under the dispensations of His government. The general thought is, that He is Lord of heaven and earth; that all things have been made by Him, and that He has a right to control them; and that in the works of His own hands He had given so much evidence of His wisdom, power, and goodness, that men ought to have unswerving confidence in Him. He appeals to His works, and shows that, in fact, man could explain little, and that the most familiar objects were beyond his comprehension. It was therefore to be expected that in His moral government there would be much that would be above the power of man to explain. In this speech the creation of the world is first brought before the mind in language which has never been equalled. Then the Almighty refers to various things in the universe that surpass the wisdom of man to comprehend them, or his power to make them — to the laws of light; the depths of the ocean; the formation of the snow, the rain, the dew, the ice, the frost; the changes of the seasons, the clouds, the lightnings; and the instincts of animals. He then makes a particular appeal to some of the mere remarkable inhabitants of the air, the forest, and the waters, as illustrating His power. He refers to the gestation of the mountain goats; to the wild ass, to the rhinoceros, to the ostrich, and to the horse (ch. 39). The ground of the argument in this part of the address is that He had adapted every kind of animal to the mode of life which it was to lead; that He had given cunning where cunning was necessary, and where unnecessary, that He had withheld it; that He had endowed with rapidity of foot or wing where such qualities were needful; and that where power was demanded, He had conferred it. In reference to all these classes of creatures, there were peculiar laws by which they were governed; and all, in their several spheres, showed the wisdom and skill of their Creator. Job is subdued and awed by these exhibitions. To produce, however, a more overpowering impression of His greatness and majesty, and to secure a deeper prostration before Him, the Almighty proceeds to a particular description of two of the more remarkable animals which He had made — the behemoth,and the leviathan; and with this description, the address of the Almighty closes. The general impression designed to be secured by this whole address is that of awe, reverence, and submission. The general thought is, that God is supreme; that He has a right to rule; that there are numberless things in His government which are inexplicable by human wisdom; that it is presumptuous in man to sit in judgment on His doings; and that at all times man should bow before Him with profound adoration. It is remarkable that, in this address, the Almighty does not refer to the main point in the controversy. He does not attempt to vindicate His government from the charges brought against it of inequality, nor does He refer to the future state as a place where all these apparent irregularities will be adjusted.


And you know this also. He is fair. Not sick, not mean, not unequal, nor wrong. Hell is real. I pray that many don't go. But unfortunately there will be many..strait is the gate and few travel down it and broad is the way and many travel down it. As a Child of God. It is our responsibility to tell the truth of the Word. The Whole Word of God. Not what makes us feel good, nor what makes others feel good. Because it isn't about our feelings at all. It's about what we know. And we gain that knowledge through the fear of God and studying His Word. OT and NT...whole.

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Edmond Smith said:

Nope same story. Meaning the same thing. God can physically kill the body. He can even annihilate the body and soul in hell. But He doesn't.

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Edmond Smith said:

First, which age is He speaking about?

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Edmond Smith said:

First, never said we were gods even after we go home to be with the Lord. There is no scripture that states that. And neither did I.

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Edmond Smith said:

He used the scriptures in Psalms 82 contextually to show that it was not wrong to call himself the Son of God. He knew how to answer the questions using the scripture and keeping it in context to the subject at hand. So he didn't cherry pick. He quoted it as He asked Ashap to write it.

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Edmond Smith said:

Why do you think they are not immortal? Besides the scriptures that you use that obiously state spiritual death.

Thank you for providing this. This helps me see your view better.

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Edmond Smith said:

Don't know. I do know that the Lion will lay with the lamb. I do know they'll exist there with the Lord. They are also His creation. The only thing I can come close to explaining is this. God breathed life into us creating our soul. There's no scripture stating that He did the same to other animals. Remember we also are animals.

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Edmond Smith said:

Great question.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; rather, and the dust return, etc.—the sentence begun above being still carried on to the end of the verse. Here we are told what becomes of the complex man at death, and are thus led to the explanation of the allegorical language used throughout. Without metaphor now it is stated that the material body, when life is extinct, returns to that matter out of which it was originally.1 So Siracides calls man "dust and ashes," and asserts that all things that are of the earth turn to the earth again (Ecclus. 10:9; 40:11). Soph., 'Electra,' 1158—

"Instead of thy dear form, Mere dust and idle shadow."

Corn. a Lapide quotes a remarkable parallel given by Plutarch ('Apol. ad Apollon.,' 110) from Epicharmus," Life is compounded and broken up, and again goes whence it came; earth indeed to earth, and the spirit to upper regions."

And the spirit shall return unto God who gave it; or, for the spirit—the clause being no longer subjunctive, but speaking indicatively of fact. In the first clause the preposition "to" is l, in the second

, as if to mark the distinction between the downward and the upward way. The writer now rises superior to the doubts expressed in Ec 3:21 (where see note) "Who knoweth the spirit of man, whether it goeth upward," etc.? It is not that he contradicts himself in the two passages, as some suppose, and have hence regarded ver. 7 as an interpolation; but that after all discussion, after expressing the course of his perplexities, and the various phases of his thought, he comes to the conclusion that there is a future for the individual soul, and that it shall be brought into immediate connection with a personal God. There is here no thought of its being absorbed in the anima mundi, in accordance with the heathen view, which, if it believed dimly in an immortality, denied the personality of the soul (see Eurip., 'Suppl.,' 529-534; Lucret., 2. 998, sqq.; 3:455, sqq.). Nor have we any opinion given concerning the adverse doctrines of creationism and traducianism, though the terms used are most consistent with the former. God breathed into man's nostrils the breath of life; when this departs, he who gave receives it; God "gathereth in" man's breath. [Ps 104:29] The clause, taken in this restricted sense, would say nothing about the soul, the personal "I;" it would merely indicate the destination of the vital breath; and many critics are content to see nothing more in the words. But surely this would be a feeble conclusion of the author's wanderings; rather the sentence signifies that death, releasing the spirit, or soul, from the earthly tabernacle, places it in the more immediate presence of God, there, as the Targum paraphrases the passage, returning to stand in judgment before its Creator.

traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul (or synonymously, "spirit"), holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings.

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Edmond Smith said:

The apostle Paul tells us, “If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith” (1 Corinthians 15:13-14). In other words, if there isn’t any resurrection, our faith is pointless. If Christianity is simply about this physical life and then we die to never exist again, then it really doesn’t matter what we do or how we live or what we believe.

Paul said in verse 19, “If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all people.” If there is no future for us, then our lives would more sensibly focus on having a good time while we can (verse 32). If there is no resurrection, then it would not be helpful for us to believe in Christ, because that might mean sacrifice and persecution.

If there is no resurrection, then the crucifixion of Christ didn’t achieve anything for us, and we are still in our sins (verse 17). But there is a resurrection, not only for Christ but also for us, and this is an important part of the Christian faith.

the resurrection helps us deal with the difficulties and persecutions of believing in Christ when most people around us do not. When our life and ministry runs into problems, we do not just quit. We do not say, Let’s eat and drink and be merry, because nothing really matters much. No, there is a future, and life does matter, and we want to live with our future in mind. Which is what those who do not repent will think, if all there is for punishment is death. No judgment, No hell, No torment, No Wrath. If that's the case, why would they want to be saved in the first place. They love themselves more than they would ever love God. They live for the moment now, trying to find satisfaction in themselves. The Bible clearly tells us that we don't seek out God, We are not good, and He ask will He find any faithful when He comes back. This is why this "there is no conscious torment" excuse is just that. An excuse because, some people decided they did not like the concept of Hell. So, just get rid of it. The most successful Lie Satan has ever done, is to convince people that he doesn't exist and that neither does hell. And the scary part...is it's mostly those who claim Christianity who spew that garbage. I've witnessed to many of the lost and except for the Atheist, which aren't many, most understand that there is a Heaven and a Hell, and everyone of them think they are good enough to get to Heaven. Very few are honest enough to admit that they aren't. This is why the scripture tells us this:

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Spiritual Death, Hell)

מָוֶת mâveth, maw'-veth

from H4191; death (natural or violent); concretely, the dead, their place or state (hades); figuratively, pestilence, ruin:—(be) dead(-ly), death, die(-d).

masculine noun

No one is good enough and no one can be good enough. You'd have to be perfect in all things. And there has only one ever to be that, Jesus.

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Edmond Smith said:

Again, never said we know the difference between right and wrong from birth. I said again, that the law is placed in our hearts, at our conception.

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Edmond Smith said:

But we know the difference to what is right and wrong from birth. And because of sin. We are separated from God and deserve Hell. But because He loved us so much Christ died in our place.
By saying that death is punishment for our sins and that's it. Then you call God a liar. For He says He will judge. Not me.

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Edmond Smith said:

The one passage that seems to identify with this topic more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21–23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that, because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving and praying for the child. But once the child was taken, David’s mourning ended. David’s servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” David’s response was, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” David’s response indicates that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child but could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted by this knowledge. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would see his baby son (in heaven), though he could not bring him back.

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Edmond Smith said:

You do understand that grace means that we receive something that we don't deserve. If we got what we deserved we'd all go to Hell. But because of God's fairness and His love, mercy, grace, justice and righteousness. We don't have to go.
So saying He is unfair. Is the understandment of a life time.

He is fair.

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Jason0047 said:

The problem arises with your belief here on ECT is in the fact that you cannot explain it on a moral level. Take for example the sin of adultery. How do we know that this is wrong? Is it just because God says it is wrong? How do we know that stealing is wrong? Is it just because God says it is wrong? Stop and think man. God is good. His good ways can be explained in everything He does. This is not the case with the God of ECT. God's love for us in sending His only Son to die
for us is not consistent with the God your propose who tortures people alive for all time. It is madness.

If it is perfectly fair, then you will be able to explain it using a real world example and not just quoting Scripture that really does not prove ECT.


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claninja said:

I think that clears it up, correct me if i'm wrong. You are saying God has the ability to annihilate the body and soul in hell, but doesn't. Just like God can turn stones into children of Abraham, but doesn't.

Just as when Satan went against Him, when He was hungry from fasting and told Christ to turn the stones into bread. What did Christ say?

Matthew 4:3-4 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

He could have, but He choose not to, to teach and to rebuke.

As stated in scripture, the full end of the ages

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I agree, but there are two end of an age spoke about by Christ. The Jewish age, which some say ended in 70 AD, and others believe it was on the cross. Myself, I say both. Christ came so man can be saved. He warned them that there would come a time when it would be terrible for even women with child that there would come a time that there would be persecution and that the temple would be torn down. The day at the cross and the resurrection was the beginning of the end of the ages for the Jewish to accept Him fully. They didn't. So God directed the Gospel to be spread to the Gentiles and when that came into full force and the temple destroyed was the end of Ages for the Jews and the first covenant. Then began the second covenant The promise of Salvation through Christ alone.
And what some people call the church age. I believe it to be the age of grace as many others do. Because His grace is sufficient for all of us. It's that unmerited favor we receive eternal life, thru Christ and to be with Him in Heaven and on the new earth. And those that turn away from Christ and live their lives in sin. And who die physically in their sins, will be judged by God and then be cast into Hell. I see it as there may have been an overlap of the covenants. The covenant That God had with the Jews and the covenant of Grace that Christ brought into action, may have overlapped at the cross. Now, I could be all wrong about this. I'm not that studied in the dispensation of the covenants as I should be. So forgive me If I am mistaken. I'm sure someone out there can explain it much better than I have.

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claninja said:

Sorry for my assumption: when you stated "we are not gods in the sense of...." I assumed you meant we could be gods in other sense: psalm 82

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Hence the quotations on cherry pick. But yea, i agree with you

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1 timothy 6:16 is that God alone has immortality. So who are the "they" in that scripture you are referring to and could you elaborate on the spiritual death of that scripture?

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Here is the scripture that states animals do have the breath of life: Genesis 7:15
"15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life."

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claninja said:

Sorry for my assumption: when you stated "we are not gods in the sense of...." I assumed you meant we could be gods in other sense: psalm 82

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Hence the quotations on cherry pick. But yea, i agree with you

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1 timothy 6:16 is that God alone has immortality. So who are the "they" in that scripture you are referring to and could you elaborate on the spiritual death of that scripture?

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Here is the scripture that states animals do have the breath of life: Genesis 7:15
"15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life."

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claninja said:

Sorry for my assumption: when you stated "we are not gods in the sense of...." I assumed you meant we could be gods in other sense: psalm 82

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Hence the quotations on cherry pick. But yea, i agree with you

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1 timothy 6:16 is that God alone has immortality. So who are the "they" in that scripture you are referring to and could you elaborate on the spiritual death of that scripture?

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Here is the scripture that states animals do have the breath of life: Genesis 7:15
"15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life."

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claninja said:

The explanation you gave does not help answer the question. If WE (believers) have immortal souls that go directly to God when we die, why is there hope in the resurrection?

Paul could have just stated our spirit goes directly to heaven when we die. If he would have stated it that way, I would say there is hope in that. But he didn't state it that way. He said there is hope in the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:44-46
"So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual."

When our physical body dies (what is sown is perishable), It will be resurrected one day (raised imperishable).

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

The dead WILL be raised imperishable and we shall be CHANGED. Changed from what? Mortality to immortality.


1 Corinthians 15:53-54
For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality,
then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is thy victory?
O death, where is thy sting?”

Our mortal nature must put on Immortality. It is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical.

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