Edmond Smith
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- Jan 5, 2016
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Do ... you not see the problem here with this argument?
Nope, the argument is sound. It's scripture.
You said, and I agreed, that there is no scripture that says that the soul is inherently immortal. And we are both correct in that. But, there is the fact that God created man in their image. The scripture uses the plural there for a reason. First, we are created in the image of Christ, He was in the form of a man walking upon the face of the Earth at that time. God created us in His image as a eternal Spirit or our soul. So, the scripture doesn't come out and say it. But it's implicit. We understand that our soul is eternal because it was created by an Eternal God. So, Life eternal with Christ is the Gift that God gives to us, because we don't deserve it. None of us do. If we got what we deserved, we'd all go to Hell. This also answers your second question below.
Those who die in their sins, because of their disobedience to God. Are punished eternally because we are created by an eternal God.
Also, just because there is no one scripture that says the soul is inherently eternal. Doesn't mean it isn't. The evidence shows quite clearly that it is, just by who our Creator Is and How eternal He is.
If immortality is a gift only to those who are born again through Jesus Christ, then how is it that the unbelievers are also alive to be consciously tortured all eternity?
I never said there was no judgment for unbelievers. You were putting words into my mouth there. ... Again. Not that what kind of punishment (or the intensity of it) the wicked will get should be such a big concern for traditionalist believers, anyway, but, yeah. A wrath can in fact end in death instead of be conscious and lasting for eternity, you know. In fact, the lake of fire IS the second death, called so even in Revelation. That sounds a lot like a wrath from God that utterly destroys both body and soul, as it was also mentioned in Matthew, perhaps through literal, physical fire.
Not putting words into your mouth. You state this by your belief. That when you die, that's it. If you die in your sins that is. That the wrath and punishment you receive is death itself and that's it.
Let's try that in a court of law. You've been busted for murder, your guilty. But you don't get judged. Just the idea of being caught is enough punishment for you. So you don't face judgment, nor do you pay for the crime you've been caught in.......This in no way makes any sense. Why wouldn't you be judged? Why wouldn't you face a sentence for punishment for the crime?
Now let's look at it when reality steps in. You've been busted for murder. You face a judge and a jury of your peers. The evidence is shown and you are proven guilty. Now that the evidence has proven this. You are sentenced to death......That is reality. The other scenario isn't.
Easy. Isn't this a punishment of the specific wicked who took the mark and chose to worship the beast instead of God happening while they are still alive on Earth? Unless here the Bible decided to fast forward to the future at the final judgment just for a moment to say what will be happening to the beast worshipers in Hell, and then go back to the remaining events that are obviously happening before the Great White Throne judgment occurs - the seven angels with the seven vials of plagues, Christ's millennial reign on Earth, the final battle in which Satan is said to gather forces from all corners of the Earth to wage one last battle to completely wipe out the believers (but then fire from God is sent to simply devour the evil forces one and all) - and then go back forward to describing the final events that see the believers in the New Jerusalem with God forever, and the wicked destroyed once and for all in the lake of fire. Not really any reason to jump around on the timeline like that.
I'm glad you see that as Easy, then you would agree that these people sinned against God, while alive on the earth by receiving the mark of the beast. So when they died, which the Bible doesn't state how they do. But they obviously do. They are then cast into Hell. For taking the mark. This kind of puts a kink in your belief, that it doesn't happen. That death itself is the wrath they are to be punished by and that's the end of it. That there is no conscious eternal torment.
Revelations doesn't jump around any timeline. It's quite proficient in it's timing and how the end plays out.
Or, how about this? Notice how at the end of that passage it says that "they have no rest day or night"? Why are temporal words like day and night being used to describe their conscious punishment here if this passage is supposed to be about them being tortured forever in Gehenna at the end, when all sense of time is ended and eternity has begun?
It could be that John didn't know or have any other words better to describe it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Once again, no, I never said that. To be destroyed body and soul, never to have life ever again, especially if in literal fire, is in fact a punishment. I know it's not a harsh enough punishment in the eyes of you eternal torment proponents (I've heard it come directly out of your mouths before, myself), but I think I'll take a page out of your book for a moment by saying: who are you to tell God that He should do more harm than that to His enemies? Are you the judge or is God?
Yes, you do say that. You did it again. We are created by a Eternal God in his image, therefore we have an eternal soul.
It isn't me who is telling God what He should do. He tells us quite clearly Himself what he will do to the wicked. I just repeat what He says.
Absolutely. I must believe in that. .... Which is precisely the reason why I do not believe in eternal conscious torment. If it is infinite in duration, then ultimately every last unbeliever who goes to hell to be endlessly punished and tortured is receiving the same amount of punishment for varying degrees of sin - yes, your sweet old Grandma who was kind to everyone but unfortunately never took that one essential step in believing in Jesus Christ, will suffer infinitely right alongside an unapologetic child murderer. And yet even the latter's sins are limited in number and degree of atrocity, so infinite conscious torture does not line up with God's justice which we scarcely can fathom but do get a glimpse every now and then in Scripture to see how His justice would operate, such as in Luke 12:47 and 48.
Your saying there is and isn't conscious torment. That's called a logical fallacy. You can't have both a and b at the same time in the same instance.
Now, I do agree, there are different punishments for different sins. But there is one thing that will be a total conscious , no matter what the sin is. No presence of God. Not the lack of. No presence of Him at all. No love, No hope, No salvation, No peace, No grace and No mercy. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a true story. And it clearly shows that the rich man is in torment.
He is very conscious of it and He even ask if someone could warn His friends not to go to where he is.
I stand back a little, on the presence of God. His presence is everywhere, even in Hell. Because He is omnipresent. His presence is just there. Right there, where it can be known, but never achieved. Right there where it could be grasped. But those in Hell, will never feel it's presence again. They receive exactly what they wanted. To live their life eternally without God.
Yeah, uh, you keep on believing that if it makes you feel like you are in the right, buddy.
It isn't about what I feel.
I know you believe what you do, I know your sincere about it. But your belief means nothing if it isn't true.
The Word of God, warns man of the sureness of hell as a punishment for sin. Christ warns us of Hell. And it's even described quite graphically in the scriptures.
So yeah, your disagreement isn't with me. Because in the end, it's Him you will have to answer to, not me.
It isn't about me being right. I could be wrong. I go by the Word and it shows and tells me something completely different than what you believe.
It's about God's word, being right and true and rightly divided in truth.
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