Edmond Smith

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Do ... you not see the problem here with this argument?

Nope, the argument is sound. It's scripture.

You said, and I agreed, that there is no scripture that says that the soul is inherently immortal. And we are both correct in that. But, there is the fact that God created man in their image. The scripture uses the plural there for a reason. First, we are created in the image of Christ, He was in the form of a man walking upon the face of the Earth at that time. God created us in His image as a eternal Spirit or our soul. So, the scripture doesn't come out and say it. But it's implicit. We understand that our soul is eternal because it was created by an Eternal God. So, Life eternal with Christ is the Gift that God gives to us, because we don't deserve it. None of us do. If we got what we deserved, we'd all go to Hell. This also answers your second question below.
Those who die in their sins, because of their disobedience to God. Are punished eternally because we are created by an eternal God.
Also, just because there is no one scripture that says the soul is inherently eternal. Doesn't mean it isn't. The evidence shows quite clearly that it is, just by who our Creator Is and How eternal He is.

If immortality is a gift only to those who are born again through Jesus Christ, then how is it that the unbelievers are also alive to be consciously tortured all eternity?




I never said there was no judgment for unbelievers. You were putting words into my mouth there. ... Again. Not that what kind of punishment (or the intensity of it) the wicked will get should be such a big concern for traditionalist believers, anyway, but, yeah. A wrath can in fact end in death instead of be conscious and lasting for eternity, you know. In fact, the lake of fire IS the second death, called so even in Revelation. That sounds a lot like a wrath from God that utterly destroys both body and soul, as it was also mentioned in Matthew, perhaps through literal, physical fire.

Not putting words into your mouth. You state this by your belief. That when you die, that's it. If you die in your sins that is. That the wrath and punishment you receive is death itself and that's it.

Let's try that in a court of law. You've been busted for murder, your guilty. But you don't get judged. Just the idea of being caught is enough punishment for you. So you don't face judgment, nor do you pay for the crime you've been caught in.......This in no way makes any sense. Why wouldn't you be judged? Why wouldn't you face a sentence for punishment for the crime?

Now let's look at it when reality steps in. You've been busted for murder. You face a judge and a jury of your peers. The evidence is shown and you are proven guilty. Now that the evidence has proven this. You are sentenced to death......That is reality. The other scenario isn't.


Easy. Isn't this a punishment of the specific wicked who took the mark and chose to worship the beast instead of God happening while they are still alive on Earth? Unless here the Bible decided to fast forward to the future at the final judgment just for a moment to say what will be happening to the beast worshipers in Hell, and then go back to the remaining events that are obviously happening before the Great White Throne judgment occurs - the seven angels with the seven vials of plagues, Christ's millennial reign on Earth, the final battle in which Satan is said to gather forces from all corners of the Earth to wage one last battle to completely wipe out the believers (but then fire from God is sent to simply devour the evil forces one and all) - and then go back forward to describing the final events that see the believers in the New Jerusalem with God forever, and the wicked destroyed once and for all in the lake of fire. Not really any reason to jump around on the timeline like that.

I'm glad you see that as Easy, then you would agree that these people sinned against God, while alive on the earth by receiving the mark of the beast. So when they died, which the Bible doesn't state how they do. But they obviously do. They are then cast into Hell. For taking the mark. This kind of puts a kink in your belief, that it doesn't happen. That death itself is the wrath they are to be punished by and that's the end of it. That there is no conscious eternal torment.
Revelations doesn't jump around any timeline. It's quite proficient in it's timing and how the end plays out.

Or, how about this? Notice how at the end of that passage it says that "they have no rest day or night"? Why are temporal words like day and night being used to describe their conscious punishment here if this passage is supposed to be about them being tortured forever in Gehenna at the end, when all sense of time is ended and eternity has begun?

It could be that John didn't know or have any other words better to describe it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Once again, no, I never said that. To be destroyed body and soul, never to have life ever again, especially if in literal fire, is in fact a punishment. I know it's not a harsh enough punishment in the eyes of you eternal torment proponents (I've heard it come directly out of your mouths before, myself), but I think I'll take a page out of your book for a moment by saying: who are you to tell God that He should do more harm than that to His enemies? Are you the judge or is God?

Yes, you do say that. You did it again. We are created by a Eternal God in his image, therefore we have an eternal soul.

It isn't me who is telling God what He should do. He tells us quite clearly Himself what he will do to the wicked. I just repeat what He says.


Absolutely. I must believe in that. .... Which is precisely the reason why I do not believe in eternal conscious torment. If it is infinite in duration, then ultimately every last unbeliever who goes to hell to be endlessly punished and tortured is receiving the same amount of punishment for varying degrees of sin - yes, your sweet old Grandma who was kind to everyone but unfortunately never took that one essential step in believing in Jesus Christ, will suffer infinitely right alongside an unapologetic child murderer. And yet even the latter's sins are limited in number and degree of atrocity, so infinite conscious torture does not line up with God's justice which we scarcely can fathom but do get a glimpse every now and then in Scripture to see how His justice would operate, such as in Luke 12:47 and 48.

Your saying there is and isn't conscious torment. That's called a logical fallacy. You can't have both a and b at the same time in the same instance.
Now, I do agree, there are different punishments for different sins. But there is one thing that will be a total conscious , no matter what the sin is. No presence of God. Not the lack of. No presence of Him at all. No love, No hope, No salvation, No peace, No grace and No mercy. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a true story. And it clearly shows that the rich man is in torment.
He is very conscious of it and He even ask if someone could warn His friends not to go to where he is.
I stand back a little, on the presence of God. His presence is everywhere, even in Hell. Because He is omnipresent. His presence is just there. Right there, where it can be known, but never achieved. Right there where it could be grasped. But those in Hell, will never feel it's presence again. They receive exactly what they wanted. To live their life eternally without God.

Yeah, uh, you keep on believing that if it makes you feel like you are in the right, buddy.

It isn't about what I feel.
I know you believe what you do, I know your sincere about it. But your belief means nothing if it isn't true.
The Word of God, warns man of the sureness of hell as a punishment for sin. Christ warns us of Hell. And it's even described quite graphically in the scriptures.
So yeah, your disagreement isn't with me. Because in the end, it's Him you will have to answer to, not me.
It isn't about me being right. I could be wrong. I go by the Word and it shows and tells me something completely different than what you believe.
It's about God's word, being right and true and rightly divided in truth.
 
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SarahsKnight

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But, there is the fact that God created man in their image. The scripture uses the plural there for a reason. First, we are created in the image of Christ, He was in the form of a man walking upon the face of the Earth at that time. God created us in His image as a eternal Spirit or our soul.

So, okay, because God is eternal, and made us in His image, that must mean we have His eternality. Uhhh, no. Once again an assumption you are passing off as such hard truth that I am an enemy of God for disagreeing with it. God is also omnipotent and omniscient; do we possess those qualities as well since the Bible says we are made in His image? I certainly know you wouldn't say that. So why is it we possess the immortality part and yet not the other two? When nowhere does Scripture make the distinction that, by being created in His image, we possess some of His qualities but not others? ESPECIALLY when you take into consideration 1 Timothy 6:16. Or, I'm sorry, is that somehow actually not saying that God is, alone, immortal? I've already heard the ridiculously over-reaching argument from eternal torment proponents that this verse means specifically that God alone has a certain kind of immortality, in that He had no beginning or end, but somehow that still means that while humans have a beginning they inherently have no end. ... Or, you know, maybe the verse just says that God hath alone immortality. Period.



Your saying there is and isn't conscious torment. That's called a logical fallacy. You can't have both a and b at the same time in the same instance.

Ummm, no, I didn't? I was trying to disprove eternal torment the entire time. How was I ever saying at any point that there is? Are you just saying that on purpose to make me look stupid?

... Ah, I see now. It might be because at the beginning I said that God is just and I must believe in that. Therefore, simply because you think that His justice means eternal torment, I must be agreeing with you that it is the truth. Is that it?



The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a true story. And it clearly shows that the rich man is in torment.

Even if it was a true story, it still doesn't prove eternal torment with any kind of finality. First off, it says that they were in Hades, which - correct me if I am wrong - is not the same as Gehenna (hell) even to traditionalists. Secondly, it never says the rich man was there in torment eternally, without ever dying. If this story were even supposed to prove eternal torment, this would have been the perfect opportunity for someone, anyone in that story to mention that the rich man would be tormented forever. I know it seems impossible to you to even imagine, but, believe it or not, if someone is about to die in fire, they are in fact going to be tormented by its heat first. It isn't exactly a painless way to go.

To be clear, I am not saying the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is any kind of argument for conditional immortality, but again, even if the story is supposed to be a true event and not a parable likely meant to teach another lesson entirely, it still isn't a proof-positive argument for eternal torment, either. Also, if the Rich Man was in such pain forever and ever being tortured in flames without ever truly being consumed by them, i really must question how it was that he was able to speak across the way to Lazarus and Abraham so seemingly eloquently, instead of screaming his head and scarcely able to utter a coherent word. ... By the way, if the story is supposed to be true and literal and proof of eternal, we will also have to accept then that believers will be able to look right across a physical and/or metaphorical chasm and be able to see and talk to unbelievers in their torment the entire time we are in Heaven. Do I really need to explain how screwed up and sick-minded that is if you honestly believe that is also a feature of Heaven?



It could be that John didn't know or have any other words better to describe it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

No, you're right about that. I can't expect perfect wording even from an honored Apostle so close to Jesus as John obviously was, because he is still human and flawed, too. What I am saying is, that passage does not seem to be referring to something happening in any kind of afterlife at all, but a punishment right there while the beast worshipers are alive on Earth, in the midst of the fierce judgments that God is pouring upon the physical world. The plagues, a portion of the waters turning to blood? The outright smiting of large portions of the human population? All of that?



I go by the Word and it shows and tells me something completely different than what you believe.

So why do you condemn me (don't try to dance around it, please; that's what you are doing) when I too go by the Word but see something different from what you believe in? Or do you honestly believe that everyone must agree with your method of rightly dividing the words in the Bible on peripheral subjects (outside of Christ and the Gospel), in order to be real believers who are friends of God and not His enemies who He will judge and punish? Honestly I am starting to think that some Christians just get off on thinking anyone who disagrees with them on the Scriptural interpretation of clearly non-salvation-related subject are totally in the wrong and therefore a non-believer who will go to their precious doctrinal hell of eternal torments.
 
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Edmond Smith

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So, okay, because God is eternal, and made us in His image, that must mean we have His eternality. Uhhh, no. Once again an assumption you are passing off as such hard truth that I am an enemy of God for disagreeing with it. God is also omnipotent and omniscient; do we possess those qualities as well since the Bible says we are made in His image? I certainly know you wouldn't say that. So why is it we possess the immortality part and yet not the other two?

I've answered most of this thru my email. Hopefully you received it. But I didn't respond to this question. The reason why we don't have the other two are because we aren't gods. He have no need to be omnipotent or omniscient. God wasn't creating little gods...that's Mormonism. He was creating mankind so that we can worship Him and His omnipotence and omniscient and all that He does and gives to us.

When nowhere does Scripture make the distinction that, by being created in His image, we possess some of His qualities but not others? ESPECIALLY when you take into consideration 1 Timothy 6:16. Or, I'm sorry, is that somehow actually not saying that God is, alone, immortal? I've already heard the ridiculously over-reaching argument from eternal torment proponents that this verse means specifically that God alone has a certain kind of immortality, in that He had no beginning or end, but somehow that still means that while humans have a beginning they inherently have no end. ... Or, you know, maybe the verse just says that God hath alone immortality. Period.

Creatures have immortality only as they derive it from him, and of course are dependent on him for it. He has it by his very nature, and it is in his case underived, and he cannot be deprived of it. It is one of the essential attributes of his being, that he will always exist, and that death cannot reach him. Comp. the expression in Joh 5:26. "The Father hath life in himself,"

It means that God the Father, will never experience death as we do. Obviously His Son in His flesh experience it. But God being a Spirit will never be able to experience this. Since the Spirit doesn't have a death. Which is the same as our soul it does not experience death as the flesh does.


Ummm, no, I didn't? I was trying to disprove eternal torment the entire time. How was I ever saying at any point that there is? Are you just saying that on purpose to make me look stupid?

... Ah, I see now. It might be because at the beginning I said that God is just and I must believe in that. Therefore, simply because you think that His justice means eternal torment, I must be agreeing with you that it is the truth. Is that it?

Yes, Yeah, you agree that God is just. Then you turn around and say that there is no eternal life in those who do not repent. That they would not face judgment, because when they sin they do so against God. That death is the final punishment, then they no longer exist. Don't you see where this thinking isn't biblical? There will be a final judgment day. Where all will be judged, saint and sinner alike. Those who are Born Again, have the Advocate, Christ, we will be judged by Him, not for our sins, but for our deeds. Some will gain rewards and some will lose some. But no condemnation.
Those who never repented are cast into the lake of fire. But by your belief, there will only be those who are Born Again there to be judged. If there is no condemnation, then who is cast into the lake of fire?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This is what God says, after the New Jerusalem and the new earth is created. If a sinful person soul is not eternal, then why would God say this? This is after the millennial. When Satan is let loose and brings the nations against God and His people. Which shows that sin will still be about. That man will still have a sinful heart and many will not believe. Even after everything they have seen, heard and went thru. And then in one day with one action they will be stopped. And receive the punishment stated above.

Before this is the Great Throne room Judgment.

Revelation 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If your name is not in the book of life, you will be cast into the lake of fire.

Even if it was a true story, it still doesn't prove eternal torment with any kind of finality. First off, it says that they were in Hades, which - correct me if I am wrong - is not the same as Gehenna (hell) even to traditionalists. Secondly, it never says the rich man was there in torment eternally, without ever dying. If this story were even supposed to prove eternal torment, this would have been the perfect opportunity for someone, anyone in that story to mention that the rich man would be tormented forever. I know it seems impossible to you to even imagine, but, believe it or not, if someone is about to die in fire, they are in fact going to be tormented by its heat first. It isn't exactly a painless way to go.

First, the word hades and Gehenna are synomous for hell. Again, they used the descriptive words they used back then, that those who heard knew what was meant by it. In Luke 16:22, it shows that the rich man was buried. The word used there is

θάπτω tháptō, thap'-to

a primary verb; to celebrate funeral rites, i.e. inter:—bury.

Then in verse 23 is the word
ᾅδης háidēs, hah'-dace

from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell.

proper locative noun

They are used separately obviously they mean two different things.

He knew he was going to be there for a while even for an eternity, why? Because why bother wanting to warn others if it didn't exist. Which he ask for. twice.
Plus to an earlier thing you brought up.. The fires of Hell, don't consume. They torment. As shown here.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


To be clear, I am not saying the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is any kind of argument for conditional immortality, but again, even if the story is supposed to be a true event and not a parable likely meant to teach another lesson entirely, it still isn't a proof-positive argument for eternal torment, either. Also, if the Rich Man was in such pain forever and ever being tortured in flames without ever truly being consumed by them, i really must question how it was that he was able to speak across the way to Lazarus and Abraham so seemingly eloquently, instead of screaming his head and scarcely able to utter a coherent word. ... By the way, if the story is supposed to be true and literal and proof of eternal, we will also have to accept then that believers will be able to look right across a physical and/or metaphorical chasm and be able to see and talk to unbelievers in their torment the entire time we are in Heaven. Do I really need to explain how screwed up and sick-minded that is if you honestly believe that is also a feature of Heaven?


It is a true story because Christ used names, parables don't. He used the names of Historical people that had died and was known to be in paradise. Because the bible doesn't get into the details of His torment doesn't mean it wasn't happening. We do the same thing when we are describing something that is horrible to a crowd, out of respect to those who are there. Plus Christ wasn't using this to bring fear of Hell to the people. Just the knowledge of it.
No it isn't sick, if that is how it is, then we would be thankful to God, for us not being there.. Because even in Revelation in the last judgment we see it happen again. Gods thoughts are not ours and why He does things is always for our good. Even if we don't like it.
As you once asked me, I now ask you. Who are you to Dictate to God what is right or wrong, or screwed up or sick-minded?


No, you're right about that. I can't expect perfect wording even from an honored Apostle so close to Jesus as John obviously was, because he is still human and flawed, too. What I am saying is, that passage does not seem to be referring to something happening in any kind of afterlife at all, but a punishment right there while the beast worshipers are alive on Earth, in the midst of the fierce judgments that God is pouring upon the physical world. The plagues, a portion of the waters turning to blood? The outright smiting of large portions of the human population? All of that?

Not quite.


Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This is what will happen to those who take the mark of the Beast. Yet they may be alive at the time the Angel tells them this. They aren't suffering anything at this time. It isn't until here:

Here, they receive the first of the punishments during the tribulation.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

There will a great war. Between Christ and his followers and the anti Christ his prophet and those who have taken the mark. The anti Christ and his prophet will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Those also who received the mark and worshipped his image will also be cast into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Hence the warning in Revelation 14:9-11 They completely ignored.

Therefore, if there is no soul to punish after death for sinners, that death itself is the punishment for their sins. Who is being cast into Hell?

So why do you condemn me (don't try to dance around it, please; that's what you are doing) when I too go by the Word but see something different from what you believe in? Or do you honestly believe that everyone must agree with your method of rightly dividing the words in the Bible on peripheral subjects (outside of Christ and the Gospel), in order to be real believers who are friends of God and not His enemies who He will judge and punish?

I can't condemn you. I'm not God. And I don't. Just want you realize the truth of God's Word.
I don't expect any one to believe me. Pick up your Bible read it rightly divided. In otherwords for God's approval not mans. If you are cherry picking and choosing scriptures just because you don't like Hell and think it's unfair. That's not the way it's to be done. Context does matter.
So, don't believe me, that's fine...read the Word, the whole Word with an open heart and mind asking God to show you His truths. He will. Because it says that if your not His your His enemy and that He will judge and He will punish. It's all there.

I can your belief though. It contradicts God, His word and the reason why Christ died on the cross in the first place. The latter is the greater of the wrongs this belief you teach. It answers the question as to why He had to die in the first place. Two things happened when He died. First He faced and took the wrath that we as sinners were supposed to get. He took the full wrath of God so that we wouldn't have to and at the same time, God's mercy and grace went thru Him so that we might be saved from that wrath. Which is there. If you sin against God and that's what you do when you sin. You are in rebellion against God. Not man. You are His enemy. Not man. On the day of judgment He will crush any who have sinned against Him. Because He is God, He loves us, yes and He sent His Son, yet while we sinned. And an Innocent man died for our transgressions.
When you say that our souls are not eternal. By which is incorrect, because we are Created in His image and were breathed in by Him our soul, and Him being eternal gives us an eternal soul. No, we don't have omnipotence or omnipresence or omniscience....because we are not little gods. But we know the difference to what is right and wrong from birth. And because of sin. We are separated from God and deserve Hell. But because He loved us so much Christ died in our place.
By saying that death is punishment for our sins and that's it. Then you call God a liar. For He says He will judge. Not me.

I condemn false teaching. and what you teach is false and against God's plan of redemption. You create a god of your own choosing, which breaks the 1st commandment and is a sin. In that you condemn yourself.

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

You can't answer to this scripture:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

It doesn't differentiate between the righteous or unrighteous...just men. If your belief were true, then this wouldn't be.

Honestly I am starting to think that some Christians just get off on thinking anyone who disagrees with them on the Scriptural interpretation of clearly non-salvation-related subject are totally in the wrong and therefore a non-believer who will go to their precious doctrinal hell of eternal torments.

Your wrong and so was I. Hell is a salvation issue. It our duty as Born Again Children of God. To do, say, preach and stand against sin and that which takes people to Hell. If we just preach the Cross and only the cross, people wouldn't understand what it means and why it had to happen. The bible tells us that it is foolishness to them.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Those that perish are those who perish in their sins.

Everyone understands God loves them. But do they know why He does?
They know that Christ died on the cross. Do they know why He did it?
Without knowing about sin, Death, Hell and the grave. Is like going to a doctor and He just tells you everything is going to be alright at the same time giving you a scrip for radiation treatment. And doesn't tell you the whole story.
People have a right and inherent want to know what happens to them after death. And many believe quite differently than you do about this matter.

Mr. Rob Bell started this way of false teaching a few years back with the emergence church movement. Because he thought hell was unfair. It's perfectly fair.
 
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claninja

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Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Right before this in Hebrews 9:26 (YLT)
"since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;"

Matthew 13:39-40 (YLT)
and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,

Matthew 24:2-3 (YLT)
"and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'"

Christ was manifested at the full end of the age. The temple was destroyed at the full end of the age. The harvest occurred at the full end of the age. The darnel was burned with fire at the full end of the age. This is not some future event in some literal lake of fire. It already happened, with the end of the old covenant and the cutting off of national Israel as the chosen people, and the start of the new covenant where whoever believes, shines like the stars. These parables are stories used to tell of the coming judgment on ISRAEL. Jesus never mentions eternal torment post death in the new testament.

Matthew 10:28 (YLT) is verse that tells us what can happen after we die:

And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Destroy in this verse is ἀπολέσαι which means permanent or absolute destruction/fully destroy/cancel out/remove.

If eternal torment was suppose to be the meaning, Christ would have used ἀπώλεια which means is destruction/cut off/loss of well being, but does NOT mean annihilation.
 
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SarahsKnight

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Right before this in Hebrews 9:26 (YLT)
"since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;"

Matthew 13:39-40 (YLT)
and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,

Matthew 24:2-3 (YLT)
"and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'"

Thank you for answering this for me. But this harping of his on about how I am rejecting there being any kind of judgment for unbelievers and so many other points Edmond "You Aren't a True Believer But I Am" Smith were such obvious strawmans playing upon words I never actually said but he chose to interpret them that way just to be able to have a rebuttal, I was honestly at a loss for words to reply by this time.
It's amazing.
 
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SarahsKnight

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Then you turn around and say that there is no eternal life in those who do not repent.
:doh:

Of COURSE there is no eternal life for those who do not repent and believe! Are you serious?
I mean, aside from the many, many verses that speak of death - the polar opposite of life - as being the ultimate fate of the wicked, even one of the eternal torment proponents' favorite proof verses Matthew 25:46 contradicts this! "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

But I suppose that I was supposed to read that as "both the righteous and the wicked will go to eternal life, but the wicked's eternal life will be a different kind of eternal life - a life of never-ending conscious punishment", wasn't I? But since I am not finding all of these hidden meanings and additional clauses in Scripture that end up causing them to mean something completely different from what they say on the surface, like you apparently do, you repeatedly claim that I deny God and His word. This is truly amazing. And yet I am the one who you say stands condemned. .... But neither are you, despite how much you dance around plain wording in Scripture like this and act like I am a willful denier of God's word or something for not having this same weird logic as you when it comes to interpreting Scripture.



Hell is a salvation issue.

Hell is not a salvation issue, as you claim it is. You add to the Gospel this way. It is called the Good News for a reason, but you appear to instead call it The Good News That You May Only Attain the Benefit Of If You Also Correctly Understand the Bad News That Comes With Rejecting This Good News.

Keep on believing it, though. I can't stop you.



Because it says that if your not His your His enemy and that He will judge and He will punish. It's all there.

I don't know why you keep insisting I am denying things like this. I never claimed He would not judge or punish. But there is nothing that says the sentence for His enemies is eternal conscious torment. Nothing. But I guess for you, the only viable punishment is eternal torment, otherwise it isn't good enough and somehow denies that Jesus died on the Cross. I understand quite well that He did, thank you, and you've no right to insinuate that I deny that, such as here:
I can your belief, though. It contradicts God, His word and the reason why Christ died on the cross in the first place.

Of course it's obvious from the last several exchanges that nothing I say will stop you from repeatedly saying things like this about me. So carry on. Just remember this: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
 
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claninja

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The reason why we don't have the other two are because we aren't gods
Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

When you say that our souls are not eternal. By which is incorrect, because we are Created in His image and were breathed in by Him our soul, and Him being eternal gives us an eternal soul. No, we don't have omnipotence or omnipresence or omniscience....because we are not little gods. But we know the difference to what is right and wrong from birth. And because of sin. We are separated from God and deserve Hell. But because He loved us so much Christ died in our place.
By saying that death is punishment for our sins and that's it. Then you call God a liar. For He says He will judge. Not me.

You haven't established a Biblical case yet for the immortality of the soul. You have only stated what you think about the immortality of the soul, without really using scripture. So until then, I wouldn't tell someone they are incorrect, until you have provided evidence that gives you some support.

If we know the difference from right and wrong from birth, do new born babies go to hell?

"the wages of sin is death" "that whoever believes in Him shall not perish" "the soul that sins shall die"
Death is a punishment for our sins. The scriptures clearly state this. They are not calling God a liar.

I condemn false teaching. and what you teach is false and against God's plan of redemption. You create a god of your own choosing, which breaks the 1st commandment and is a sin. In that you condemn yourself.

So everlasting death goes against God's plan for redemption, but everlasting torment in hell doesn't?
This doesn't make any sense, so would you be able to provide scripture for this specifically to help us see your view?

Let's try not to get on our high horses and forget we are all sinners here. I don't claim to know the secrets of the universe, but I do know that Christ died to save us from our sins, and that is something we can all agree on and be thankful for.
 
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StevenBelievin

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I am surprised by how many of those who claim to be Christians believe in annihilation or universalism.

Matthew 25:41-46 is clear.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

"Eternal Punishment". It doesn't get any clearer than that.

You can try the eternal in the Greek is Aeon which means Age, but that doesn't really wash because the same Aeon is used for eternal life as well, and the Aeon / Age to come is eternal.
 
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claninja

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I am surprised by how many of those who claim to be Christians believe in annihilation or universalism.

Matthew 25:41-46 is clear.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

"Eternal Punishment". It doesn't get any clearer than that.

You can try the eternal in the Greek is Aeon which means Age, but that doesn't really wash because the same Aeon is used for eternal life as well, and the Aeon / Age to come is eternal.

Matthew 21:33-46
Parable of wicked tenants: Foretelling Israel's Destruction and the kingdom going to another nation
Matthew 22:1-14
Parable of the wedding feast: Foretelling Israel' Destruction and the kingdom going to another nation
Matthew 23
Jesus denounces the pharisees and scribes: foretelling their destruction and desolation of their house
Matthew 24
Jesus foretells the destruction of the temple and Israel, and the coming of the son of man in power and glory. He says that all this will occur during THIS GENERATION (his audience)


Matthew 10:23
The apostles will not have made it through every town in Israel before the son of man comes
Matthew 16:28
There are those standing with Jesus who will not die before the son of man comes in his kingdom
Mark 9:1
There are those standing with Jesus who will not die before the kingdom of God comes with power
Luke 9:27
There are those standing with Jesus who will not die before they see the kingdom of God.

Romans 9:25-26
God will call a people who are not his people
Romans 9:30-33
The gentiles did not pursue righteousness, but have obtained it. Israel who pursued it, did not obtain it
Romans 10:20
God was found by those not seeking him and God has shown himself to those not looking for Him.

Matthew 25:31-46; Parable of the sheep and the goats
This will occur when the son of man comes in glory or in other words, when the kingdom of God comes with power. This occurred during the generation of Jesus' audience.

The sheep's (righteous) humble response: ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? They are ones who did not pursue righteousness, but did obtain it: gentiles/believing Jews

The goat's (unrighteous) self righteous response: 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ They are the ones who pursued righteousness, but did not obtain it: unbelieving Israel
 
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LadyCrosstalk

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I am surprised by how many of those who claim to be Christians believe in annihilation or universalism.

Matthew 25:41-46 is clear.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

"Eternal Punishment". It doesn't get any clearer than that.

You can try the eternal in the Greek is Aeon which means Age, but that doesn't really wash because the same Aeon is used for eternal life as well, and the Aeon / Age to come is eternal.


There could be another way to look at it. Perhaps, the eternal fire punishment was prepared for the devil and his angels because they are eternal beings. Mortal men are not eternal beings and may simply be annihilated after a suitable period of paying for their sins (if they are not covered by the Blood of Jesus). I'm okay with it either way--eternal punishment or ultimate annihilation. What is, is. What we want to be focusing on is the way to eternal life.
 
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Edmond Smith

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Right before this in Hebrews 9:26 (YLT)
"since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;"

Matthew 13:39-40 (YLT)
and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,

Matthew 24:2-3 (YLT)
"and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'"

Christ was manifested at the full end of the age. The temple was destroyed at the full end of the age. The harvest occurred at the full end of the age. The darnel was burned with fire at the full end of the age. This is not some future event in some literal lake of fire. It already happened, with the end of the old covenant and the cutting off of national Israel as the chosen people, and the start of the new covenant where whoever believes, shines like the stars. These parables are stories used to tell of the coming judgment on ISRAEL. Jesus never mentions eternal torment post death in the new testament.
Matthew 10:28 (YLT) is verse that tells us what can happen after we die:

And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Destroy in this verse is ἀπολέσαι which means permanent or absolute destruction/fully destroy/cancel out/remove.

If eternal torment was suppose to be the meaning, Christ would have used ἀπώλεια which means is destruction/cut off/loss of well being, but does NOT mean annihilation.

Your right. He is about to destroy body and soul in hell. But He doesn't.
Check out Luke 12:4-5

Luke 12:4-5 And δέ I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν my μοῦ friends φίλος, Be φοβέω not μή afraid φοβέω of them ἀπό that kill ἀποκτείνω the body σῶμα, and καί after μετά that ταῦτα have ἔχω no μή τὶς more περισσότερος that they can do ποιέω. But δέ I will forewarn ὑποδείκνυμι you ὑμῖν whom τίς ye shall fear φοβέω: Fear φοβέω him, which after μετά he hath killed ἀποκτείνω hath ἔχω power ἐξουσία to cast ἐμβάλλω into εἰς hell γέεννα; yea ναί, I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν, Fear φοβέω him τοῦτον.

ἀποκτείνω apokteínō, ap-ok-ti'-no

from G575 and κτείνω kteínō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:—put to death, kill, slay.

verb

Says the same, with the addition of having the power to cast in hell. So that after He has killed, has the power to cast into hell...Fear Him.

Just as Jesus was killed and rose again. Matthew 17:23 And καί they shall kill ἀποκτείνω him αὐτός, and καί the third τρίτος day ἡμέρα he shall be raised again ἐγείρω. And καί they were exceeding σφόδρα sorry λυπέω.

Remember, to whom Christ was speaking to. These people understood exactly what He meant. That we shouldn't fear man, but Him who can send us to Hell.

The end of the age (“end of the world” in the KJV) refers to the end of this present era and the commencement of the next dispensation. It is the period that precedes the second coming of the Son of Man as the Righteous Judge. The end of the age includes the rapture, the tribulation, the second coming, and the judgment of the nations, all of which help usher in the age to come.

Jesus refers to “the end of the age” a couple times in Matthew 13, as He explains the meaning of some parables. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus warns of a judgment to come in which “the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire” (Matthew 13:40). This will happen, Jesus says, “at the end of the age” (verses 39–40). Later, Jesus likens the kingdom of heaven to a dragnet that brings up all sorts of fish. Then the sorting comes: “They sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age” (verses 48–49). In both parables, the end of the age is associated with a separation, a sorting, and a burning fire (verses 40 and 50). Jesus used the phrase the end of the age to refer to that time in the future when the kingdom of God is established, true justice reigns, and the wicked are judged.

In Matthew 24, Jesus’ disciples come to Him with a question about the end of the age: “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3). What follows is the Olivet Discourse, Jesus’ summary of end times’ events as they relate to Israel. The disciples thus understood the end of the age to mean “the final judgment that accompanies Jesus’ second coming.” The end of the age will be a great calamity for those who persist in their rejection of Christ. Judgment will fall swiftly and with finality. For the children of God alive during that time, the end of the age will be a time of salvation and fulfilled hope.

One “age” or era leads to another. Jesus spoke of both “this age” and “the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). The current age, the one in which we live, is the age of grace, which we also call the church age. In this dispensation, all mankind is called to repent of their sin and turn to Christ for salvation. This age has lasted for 2,000 years because God “is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). But this age must eventually come to an end. At the end of the age (literally, the consummation of the age), the age of grace will be complete, and a far more glorious age will be ushered in. Until then, “now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2)—repentance should not be delayed.

Christians have the Lord’s promise that He will never forsake us in this world, no matter what happens: “Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” (Matthew 28:20).
 
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Edmond Smith

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Right before this in Hebrews 9:26 (YLT)
"since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;"

Matthew 13:39-40 (YLT)
and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,

Matthew 24:2-3 (YLT)
"and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'"

Christ was manifested at the full end of the age. The temple was destroyed at the full end of the age. The harvest occurred at the full end of the age. The darnel was burned with fire at the full end of the age. This is not some future event in some literal lake of fire. It already happened, with the end of the old covenant and the cutting off of national Israel as the chosen people, and the start of the new covenant where whoever believes, shines like the stars. These parables are stories used to tell of the coming judgment on ISRAEL. Jesus never mentions eternal torment post death in the new testament.
Matthew 10:28 (YLT) is verse that tells us what can happen after we die:

And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Destroy in this verse is ἀπολέσαι which means permanent or absolute destruction/fully destroy/cancel out/remove.

If eternal torment was suppose to be the meaning, Christ would have used ἀπώλεια which means is destruction/cut off/loss of well being, but does NOT mean annihilation.

Your right. He is about to destroy body and soul in hell. But He doesn't.
Check out Luke 12:4-5

Luke 12:4-5 And δέ I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν my μοῦ friends φίλος, Be φοβέω not μή afraid φοβέω of them ἀπό that kill ἀποκτείνω the body σῶμα, and καί after μετά that ταῦτα have ἔχω no μή τὶς more περισσότερος that they can do ποιέω. But δέ I will forewarn ὑποδείκνυμι you ὑμῖν whom τίς ye shall fear φοβέω: Fear φοβέω him, which after μετά he hath killed ἀποκτείνω hath ἔχω power ἐξουσία to cast ἐμβάλλω into εἰς hell γέεννα; yea ναί, I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν, Fear φοβέω him τοῦτον.

ἀποκτείνω apokteínō, ap-ok-ti'-no

from G575 and κτείνω kteínō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:—put to death, kill, slay.

verb

Says the same, with the addition of having the power to cast in hell. So that after He has killed, has the power to cast into hell...Fear Him.

Just as Jesus was killed and rose again. Matthew 17:23 And καί they shall kill ἀποκτείνω him αὐτός, and καί the third τρίτος day ἡμέρα he shall be raised again ἐγείρω. And καί they were exceeding σφόδρα sorry λυπέω.

Remember, to whom Christ was speaking to. These people understood exactly what He meant. That we shouldn't fear man, but Him who can send us to Hell.

The end of the age (“end of the world” in the KJV) refers to the end of this present era and the commencement of the next dispensation. It is the period that precedes the second coming of the Son of Man as the Righteous Judge. The end of the age includes the rapture, the tribulation, the second coming, and the judgment of the nations, all of which help usher in the age to come.

Jesus refers to “the end of the age” a couple times in Matthew 13, as He explains the meaning of some parables. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus warns of a judgment to come in which “the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire” (Matthew 13:40). This will happen, Jesus says, “at the end of the age” (verses 39–40). Later, Jesus likens the kingdom of heaven to a dragnet that brings up all sorts of fish. Then the sorting comes: “They sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age” (verses 48–49). In both parables, the end of the age is associated with a separation, a sorting, and a burning fire (verses 40 and 50). Jesus used the phrase the end of the age to refer to that time in the future when the kingdom of God is established, true justice reigns, and the wicked are judged.

In Matthew 24, Jesus’ disciples come to Him with a question about the end of the age: “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3). What follows is the Olivet Discourse, Jesus’ summary of end times’ events as they relate to Israel. The disciples thus understood the end of the age to mean “the final judgment that accompanies Jesus’ second coming.” The end of the age will be a great calamity for those who persist in their rejection of Christ. Judgment will fall swiftly and with finality. For the children of God alive during that time, the end of the age will be a time of salvation and fulfilled hope.

One “age” or era leads to another. Jesus spoke of both “this age” and “the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). The current age, the one in which we live, is the age of grace, which we also call the church age. In this dispensation, all mankind is called to repent of their sin and turn to Christ for salvation. This age has lasted for 2,000 years because God “is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). But this age must eventually come to an end. At the end of the age (literally, the consummation of the age), the age of grace will be complete, and a far more glorious age will be ushered in. Until then, “now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2)—repentance should not be delayed.

Christians have the Lord’s promise that He will never forsake us in this world, no matter what happens: “Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” (Matthew 28:20).
 
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Edmond Smith

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Right before this in Hebrews 9:26 (YLT)
"since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;"

Matthew 13:39-40 (YLT)
and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,

Matthew 24:2-3 (YLT)
"and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'"

Christ was manifested at the full end of the age. The temple was destroyed at the full end of the age. The harvest occurred at the full end of the age. The darnel was burned with fire at the full end of the age. This is not some future event in some literal lake of fire. It already happened, with the end of the old covenant and the cutting off of national Israel as the chosen people, and the start of the new covenant where whoever believes, shines like the stars. These parables are stories used to tell of the coming judgment on ISRAEL. Jesus never mentions eternal torment post death in the new testament.
Matthew 10:28 (YLT) is verse that tells us what can happen after we die:

And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Destroy in this verse is ἀπολέσαι which means permanent or absolute destruction/fully destroy/cancel out/remove.

If eternal torment was suppose to be the meaning, Christ would have used ἀπώλεια which means is destruction/cut off/loss of well being, but does NOT mean annihilation.

Your right. He is about to destroy body and soul in hell. But He doesn't.
Check out Luke 12:4-5

Luke 12:4-5 And δέ I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν my μοῦ friends φίλος, Be φοβέω not μή afraid φοβέω of them ἀπό that kill ἀποκτείνω the body σῶμα, and καί after μετά that ταῦτα have ἔχω no μή τὶς more περισσότερος that they can do ποιέω. But δέ I will forewarn ὑποδείκνυμι you ὑμῖν whom τίς ye shall fear φοβέω: Fear φοβέω him, which after μετά he hath killed ἀποκτείνω hath ἔχω power ἐξουσία to cast ἐμβάλλω into εἰς hell γέεννα; yea ναί, I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν, Fear φοβέω him τοῦτον.

ἀποκτείνω apokteínō, ap-ok-ti'-no

from G575 and κτείνω kteínō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:—put to death, kill, slay.

verb

Says the same, with the addition of having the power to cast in hell. So that after He has killed, has the power to cast into hell...Fear Him.

Just as Jesus was killed and rose again. Matthew 17:23 And καί they shall kill ἀποκτείνω him αὐτός, and καί the third τρίτος day ἡμέρα he shall be raised again ἐγείρω. And καί they were exceeding σφόδρα sorry λυπέω.

Remember, to whom Christ was speaking to. These people understood exactly what He meant. That we shouldn't fear man, but Him who can send us to Hell.

The end of the age (“end of the world” in the KJV) refers to the end of this present era and the commencement of the next dispensation. It is the period that precedes the second coming of the Son of Man as the Righteous Judge. The end of the age includes the rapture, the tribulation, the second coming, and the judgment of the nations, all of which help usher in the age to come.

Jesus refers to “the end of the age” a couple times in Matthew 13, as He explains the meaning of some parables. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus warns of a judgment to come in which “the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire” (Matthew 13:40). This will happen, Jesus says, “at the end of the age” (verses 39–40). Later, Jesus likens the kingdom of heaven to a dragnet that brings up all sorts of fish. Then the sorting comes: “They sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age” (verses 48–49). In both parables, the end of the age is associated with a separation, a sorting, and a burning fire (verses 40 and 50). Jesus used the phrase the end of the age to refer to that time in the future when the kingdom of God is established, true justice reigns, and the wicked are judged.

In Matthew 24, Jesus’ disciples come to Him with a question about the end of the age: “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3). What follows is the Olivet Discourse, Jesus’ summary of end times’ events as they relate to Israel. The disciples thus understood the end of the age to mean “the final judgment that accompanies Jesus’ second coming.” The end of the age will be a great calamity for those who persist in their rejection of Christ. Judgment will fall swiftly and with finality. For the children of God alive during that time, the end of the age will be a time of salvation and fulfilled hope.

One “age” or era leads to another. Jesus spoke of both “this age” and “the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). The current age, the one in which we live, is the age of grace, which we also call the church age. In this dispensation, all mankind is called to repent of their sin and turn to Christ for salvation. This age has lasted for 2,000 years because God “is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). But this age must eventually come to an end. At the end of the age (literally, the consummation of the age), the age of grace will be complete, and a far more glorious age will be ushered in. Until then, “now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2)—repentance should not be delayed.

Christians have the Lord’s promise that He will never forsake us in this world, no matter what happens: “Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” (Matthew 28:20).
 
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Edmond Smith

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Right before this in Hebrews 9:26 (YLT)
"since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;"

Matthew 13:39-40 (YLT)
and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age,

Matthew 24:2-3 (YLT)
"and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'"

Christ was manifested at the full end of the age. The temple was destroyed at the full end of the age. The harvest occurred at the full end of the age. The darnel was burned with fire at the full end of the age. This is not some future event in some literal lake of fire. It already happened, with the end of the old covenant and the cutting off of national Israel as the chosen people, and the start of the new covenant where whoever believes, shines like the stars. These parables are stories used to tell of the coming judgment on ISRAEL. Jesus never mentions eternal torment post death in the new testament.
Matthew 10:28 (YLT) is verse that tells us what can happen after we die:

And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Destroy in this verse is ἀπολέσαι which means permanent or absolute destruction/fully destroy/cancel out/remove.

If eternal torment was suppose to be the meaning, Christ would have used ἀπώλεια which means is destruction/cut off/loss of well being, but does NOT mean annihilation.

Your right. He is about to destroy body and soul in hell. But He doesn't.
Check out Luke 12:4-5

Luke 12:4-5 And δέ I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν my μοῦ friends φίλος, Be φοβέω not μή afraid φοβέω of them ἀπό that kill ἀποκτείνω the body σῶμα, and καί after μετά that ταῦτα have ἔχω no μή τὶς more περισσότερος that they can do ποιέω. But δέ I will forewarn ὑποδείκνυμι you ὑμῖν whom τίς ye shall fear φοβέω: Fear φοβέω him, which after μετά he hath killed ἀποκτείνω hath ἔχω power ἐξουσία to cast ἐμβάλλω into εἰς hell γέεννα; yea ναί, I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν, Fear φοβέω him τοῦτον.

ἀποκτείνω apokteínō, ap-ok-ti'-no

from G575 and κτείνω kteínō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:—put to death, kill, slay.

verb

Says the same, with the addition of having the power to cast in hell. So that after He has killed, has the power to cast into hell...Fear Him.

Just as Jesus was killed and rose again. Matthew 17:23 And καί they shall kill ἀποκτείνω him αὐτός, and καί the third τρίτος day ἡμέρα he shall be raised again ἐγείρω. And καί they were exceeding σφόδρα sorry λυπέω.

Remember, to whom Christ was speaking to. These people understood exactly what He meant. That we shouldn't fear man, but Him who can send us to Hell.

The end of the age (“end of the world” in the KJV) refers to the end of this present era and the commencement of the next dispensation. It is the period that precedes the second coming of the Son of Man as the Righteous Judge. The end of the age includes the rapture, the tribulation, the second coming, and the judgment of the nations, all of which help usher in the age to come.

Jesus refers to “the end of the age” a couple times in Matthew 13, as He explains the meaning of some parables. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus warns of a judgment to come in which “the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire” (Matthew 13:40). This will happen, Jesus says, “at the end of the age” (verses 39–40). Later, Jesus likens the kingdom of heaven to a dragnet that brings up all sorts of fish. Then the sorting comes: “They sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age” (verses 48–49). In both parables, the end of the age is associated with a separation, a sorting, and a burning fire (verses 40 and 50). Jesus used the phrase the end of the age to refer to that time in the future when the kingdom of God is established, true justice reigns, and the wicked are judged.

In Matthew 24, Jesus’ disciples come to Him with a question about the end of the age: “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3). What follows is the Olivet Discourse, Jesus’ summary of end times’ events as they relate to Israel. The disciples thus understood the end of the age to mean “the final judgment that accompanies Jesus’ second coming.” The end of the age will be a great calamity for those who persist in their rejection of Christ. Judgment will fall swiftly and with finality. For the children of God alive during that time, the end of the age will be a time of salvation and fulfilled hope.

One “age” or era leads to another. Jesus spoke of both “this age” and “the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). The current age, the one in which we live, is the age of grace, which we also call the church age. In this dispensation, all mankind is called to repent of their sin and turn to Christ for salvation. This age has lasted for 2,000 years because God “is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). But this age must eventually come to an end. At the end of the age (literally, the consummation of the age), the age of grace will be complete, and a far more glorious age will be ushered in. Until then, “now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2)—repentance should not be delayed.

Christians have the Lord’s promise that He will never forsake us in this world, no matter what happens: “Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” (Matthew 28:20).
 
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Edmond Smith

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:doh:

Of COURSE there is no eternal life for those who do not repent and believe! Are you serious?
I mean, aside from the many, many verses that speak of death - the polar opposite of life - as being the ultimate fate of the wicked, even one of the eternal torment proponents' favorite proof verses Matthew 25:46 contradicts this! "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Again, you have your god. Which will never punish the wicked. They will die and that's that.

The God of the Bible. He will judge, because He's just. He will punish the wicked. And this will happen for eternity. Matthew 25:46 contradicts only that what you believe.

They aren't hidden, nothing is. There's all kinds of scripture telling of the separation of the saint and the sinner. The saints from the hypocrite. All those who come to the Lord and proclaim Him for their own needs and He tells them to depart from me ye worker of iniquities, because you were not in my fathers will.

Those scripture where he seperates the goats from the sheep.
Matthew 25:31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33-34 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Christ explains Why, because They feed him when he was hungry, clothed him because he had no clothing Thirsty they gave Him drink. Other words they loved their neighbor as they loved themselves and obey God's commandments.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Why, because they didn't love their neighbor, nor did they obey God's commandments.

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

When we obey God and His commandments, We do these things unto Him. When we break His commandments and sin it's against Him. And He punishes into everlasting punishment.
In Hell, without Him. You see, it couldn't be punishment, if someone isn't there to receive the punishment. Why say it then, if it's never going to happen?

And it's all throughout the Bible. On How God rewards the righteous and faithful and punishes the wicked. He doesn't change. For anyone.






"Hell is not a salvation issue, as you claim it is. You add to the Gospel this way. It is called the Good News for a reason, but you appear to instead call it The Good News That You May Only Attain the Benefit Of If You Also Correctly Understand the Bad News That Comes With Rejecting This Good News."

Hell, is where we are trying to stop people from going to. The only way

Keep on believing it, though. I can't stop you.





I don't know why you keep insisting I am denying things like this. I never claimed He would not judge or punish. But there is nothing that says the sentence for His enemies is eternal conscious torment. Nothing. But I guess for you, the only viable punishment is eternal torment, otherwise it isn't good enough and somehow denies that Jesus died on the Cross. I understand quite well that He did, thank you, and you've no right to insinuate that I deny that, such as here:

You contradict yourself. You say that there is no eternal conscious torment...which is God's punishment, Then you say you never claimed He would not judge or punish. Can't have it both ways.

It isn't me. I prefer that there wasn't any eternal torment. But I'm not God. When you sin, you don't sin against me. You sin against an Eternal God. Who judges eternally and punishes eternally.

I have every right. If you are misrepresenting the Gospel and The truth of God. It's my duty as a Son of God. To defend the faith.

Of course it's obvious from the last several exchanges that nothing I say will stop you from repeatedly saying things like this about me. So carry on. Just remember this: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I know it quite well. Your telling me not to do something while you do the same against me. But that scripture is toward the Brothers and Sisters of Christ and how they are to treat each other in Church.

Maybe you should remember this:

1 Peter 4:17-19 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
 
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Edmond Smith

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Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

John 10:30-35 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Context...remember, context...anyone can cherry pick.

What Christ is quoting is from Psalms 82. Where Aspah is talking about the responsibility of the lawyers and the Higher men of the Jewish faith to judge people on earth. That the way they do the responsibility is Guided by the Scriptures assuring that God is in it.

We are not gods, in the sense of an omnipotent,omnipresent, or omniscience. God.



You haven't established a Biblical case yet for the immortality of the soul. You have only stated what you think about the immortality of the soul, without really using scripture. So until then, I wouldn't tell someone they are incorrect, until you have provided evidence that gives you some support.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Living soul. He's eternal, He created a living soul, God doesn't do things halfway.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


If we know the difference from right and wrong from birth, do new born babies go to hell?

Never said you would know the difference. Said that the law is placed upon our heart then.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

"the wages of sin is death" "that whoever believes in Him shall not perish" "the soul that sins shall die"
Death is a punishment for our sins. The scriptures clearly state this. They are not calling God a liar.

Your right. They do and they don't.
The wages of sin is death.......This is spiritual death.
Ties in with Isaiah 59:1-2 but you should read the whole chapter, tells ya how God reacts to those who sin against Him.

Isaiah 59:1-2 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Amen to that, Those that believe in Him shall not perish is right on the money.
Death is the punishment for disobeying God's commandments, your right. But that doesn't mean that the spirit dies. Just the body. Remember, God intended Adam and Eve to live eternally and populate the earth. Because when he was finished with creation...it was "Very Good". Death didn't come into the picture until sin.





So everlasting death goes against God's plan for redemption, but everlasting torment in hell doesn't?
This doesn't make any sense, so would you be able to provide scripture for this specifically to help us see your view?

I don't believe in everlasting death. You do.
That goes against God's plan for redemption. It Denies the reason for the Cross.


Let's try not to get on our high horses and forget we are all sinners here. I don't claim to know the secrets of the universe, but I do know that Christ died to save us from our sins, and that is something we can all agree on and be thankful for.

I agree. I mean no harm. I'm just stating the truth of the Word. I do mean this from the heart. I love ya in Christ and just hope that you'll take in the whole Word of God.. You don't have to take anything from me or anyone else. God's Word it true. There is a time when those of us who are Born Again will be with the Lord forever in life. And those who sin against God, and die in their sins, will be judged and told to depart from Him, for not being in God's will.
 
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claninja

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Your right. He is about to destroy body and soul in hell. But He doesn't.
Check out Luke 12:4-5

Luke 12:4-5 And δέ I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν my μοῦ friends φίλος, Be φοβέω not μή afraid φοβέω of them ἀπό that kill ἀποκτείνω the body σῶμα, and καί after μετά that ταῦτα have ἔχω no μή τὶς more περισσότερος that they can do ποιέω. But δέ I will forewarn ὑποδείκνυμι you ὑμῖν whom τίς ye shall fear φοβέω: Fear φοβέω him, which after μετά he hath killed ἀποκτείνω hath ἔχω power ἐξουσία to cast ἐμβάλλω into εἰς hell γέεννα; yea ναί, I say λέγω unto you ὑμῖν, Fear φοβέω him τοῦτον.

ἀποκτείνω apokteínō, ap-ok-ti'-no

from G575 and κτείνω kteínō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy:—put to death, kill, slay.

verb

Says the same, with the addition of having the power to cast in hell. So that after He has killed, has the power to cast into hell...Fear Him.

Just as Jesus was killed and rose again. Matthew 17:23 And καί they shall kill ἀποκτείνω him αὐτός, and καί the third τρίτος day ἡμέρα he shall be raised again ἐγείρω. And καί they were exceeding σφόδρα sorry λυπέω.

Remember, to whom Christ was speaking to. These people understood exactly what He meant. That we shouldn't fear man, but Him who can send us to Hell.

Not following you with this one. So you are saying that Matthew 10:28 states God has the power to annihilate the body and soul in hell, but doesn't because luke 12:4-5 says God can physically kill the body and then cast the soul to hell? So these are not parallel stories? These are different stories alltogther?

The end of the age (“end of the world” in the KJV) refers to the end of this present era and the commencement of the next dispensation. It is the period that precedes the second coming of the Son of Man as the Righteous Judge. The end of the age includes the rapture, the tribulation, the second coming, and the judgment of the nations, all of which help usher in the age to come.

Jesus refers to “the end of the age” a couple times in Matthew 13, as He explains the meaning of some parables. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus warns of a judgment to come in which “the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire” (Matthew 13:40). This will happen, Jesus says, “at the end of the age” (verses 39–40). Later, Jesus likens the kingdom of heaven to a dragnet that brings up all sorts of fish. Then the sorting comes: “They sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age” (verses 48–49). In both parables, the end of the age is associated with a separation, a sorting, and a burning fire (verses 40 and 50). Jesus used the phrase the end of the age to refer to that time in the future when the kingdom of God is established, true justice reigns, and the wicked are judged.

In Matthew 24, Jesus’ disciples come to Him with a question about the end of the age: “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3). What follows is the Olivet Discourse, Jesus’ summary of end times’ events as they relate to Israel. The disciples thus understood the end of the age to mean “the final judgment that accompanies Jesus’ second coming.” The end of the age will be a great calamity for those who persist in their rejection of Christ. Judgment will fall swiftly and with finality. For the children of God alive during that time, the end of the age will be a time of salvation and fulfilled hope.

One “age” or era leads to another. Jesus spoke of both “this age” and “the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). The current age, the one in which we live, is the age of grace, which we also call the church age. In this dispensation, all mankind is called to repent of their sin and turn to Christ for salvation. This age has lasted for 2,000 years because God “is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). But this age must eventually come to an end. At the end of the age (literally, the consummation of the age), the age of grace will be complete, and a far more glorious age will be ushered in. Until then, “now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2)—repentance should not be delayed.

Christians have the Lord’s promise that He will never forsake us in this world, no matter what happens: “Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” (Matthew 28:20).

Hebrews 9:26b (YLT) "but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;"

This verse tells us when the FULL end of the age was. Could you provide specific verse that says the full end of the age is 2000+ years in the future?
 
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