[DWA2DAY said:
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So the text you have quotes clearly state one. Yet you arrive at a total of thirteen gods. Please explain how you arrive at this or is this simply you verbal gymnastic at play once again.
To Jibreelhill, you also said, "Well I am unsure how much more explicit one must be "
John 10:30 I and My father are One"
I say one in person otherwise you have 13 Gods because Jesus pbuh also said, just as the Father was in him, so too was he one with the Disciples as explained in post 20 to which Spockrates agreed:
Islam - Muslims Objection to the Trinity]
Firstly we must agree that God of the bible is an un-created being and is without sin.
Secondly as clearly stated in post #1 there is only one true God and confirmed in John 10:30.
Thirdly in reference to post #20 and again post #1 we need to understand the full biblical narrative to grasp the doctrine of the trinity.
More specifically to you reference to John 10:34-36, you are been selective in the text used to prove a Muslim view a not looking at the full context of the narrative – for reading on further vs 37-38 Jesus explains that it is there unbelieve that is the problem not Jesus. When read with vs 25-28 it is made clear that if you are not one of the sheep or followers of Jesus you will have no understanding of the plan of salvation offered through Jesus Christ. See also Matthew 16:13-20 for more clarification.
[DWA2DAY said:
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Another outrageous comment with no backing or substance.
That was in response to me saying, the Jews had been misled for Thousands of Years by God if indeed he was One being in 3 separate distinct persons. We find no such teaching in Jewish Scriptures, and yet according to a Gospel attributed to John, they are condemned for rejecting this 4th Century Church Doctrine. Clearly God doesn't mislead, thus it's not from Him but a belief developed over time by people accustomed to worshipping men.]
I dealt with this in post #1.
Secondly I agree that god does not mislead or deceive, thus it would be more fitting to say that the Jews misrepresented there God and fell short of God directives and teachings – going further even the Quran agrees with this a accuses the Jews of misrepresenting their faith and hiding truth in there text.
However I find it strange that you accept and state ”Clearly God doesn't mislead….” When the Quran in its clarity says otherwise, for example surah 4:157 Allah says he deceived the people into think Jesus was Crucified but he was not. Thus in plain sight Allah is the biggest deceiver leading billions of people to hell who have accepted the Death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In doing so Allah at his will created the biggest opposition to his final revelation. Thus is just stupid for an all Powerful and All Knowing god.
Yet what your statement does confirm is you do not believe in the Quran or are selective in what you choose to believe. One the one hand you disrespect your own faith and dishonour its teaching yet stand on a pulpit try to preach to Christians about their faith, wow and I thought the Pharisees had lost the plot.
[One must add that the Quran also teaches that man can be nothing or than a slave in the eyes of Allah and thus there is no relationship of lovingly raising a child, a father who cherishes loves and guides, this is void in the Quran and if Allah does offer any for of love it is conditional and is subject to be taken away at any time if Allah wills it for no reason.[/quote]Doulos is the Greek word for Slave and that's exactly how James, brother of Jesus pbuh describes himself.
"..if you look at your English Bible, you won’t find that word very often. If you look at the Old Testament in the King James, you will find the word “slave” once. But the Hebrew word appears 800 times in the noun, and nearly 300 in the verb. There is a word in the Old Testament for “slave” that appears eleven hundred times, but in your English Bible it’s translated “slave” once."
"If you go to the New Testament, you will find the Greek word for “slave” about 150 times in all its forms. And you will find it actually translated “slave” only a few of those 150 times. The New Testament translators only translate the Greek word for slave “slave” when it’s referring to an actual physical slave, or when it’s referring to an inanimate object, like “slaves of sin” or “slaves of righteousness.”"
"You go in the book of Acts and that’s what they preached, that’s what they preached. You...this is what’s so hard...you aren’t going to see it there because the word is not translated “slave.”
Acts 4:29, “And now, Lord, take note of their threats and grant that Your bondservants may speak Your Word with all confidence.” No, “That Your slaves may speak Your Word with confidence.”
Colossians 1 talks about being slaves;
Colossians 4, and many other places. You see in the pastoral epistles Paul referring to himself,
Philippians 1:1, as a servant of Christ. In the Greek it’s “a slave.” In
Romans 1:1, “slave of Christ.”
Titus 1:1, “slave.” James, the half-brother of our Lord; it doesn’t say, “James, the half-brother of Jesus.” He says “James the slave.” Peter, not to be outdone (
2 Peter 1:1), “Peter the slave.” “Jude the slave.”
Revelation 1:1, “John the slave.” Every one of them identifies himself as a slave of Christ--chosen, bought, owned, subjected, dependent, disciplined, rewarded, provided for, protected, and obedient--and obedient."
Taken from a Christian Ministry:
Servant or Slave?]
Yes I have no problem with this other than the different understand of the word slave and its use in the Quran and Bible. The Quran teaches the Master slave relationship in the same context of the slave trade. The biblical narrative used the term in the freedom of choice of the individual in response to Gods love as a servant / slave in love and a desire to honour God’s commands.
This is a far cry from the forced submission of Islam.
[So yes Muslims are slaves of God. He gives us guidance to help us get close to him and if we obey his commandments, then we are rewarded eternally. There is nothing, absolutely nothing at all in his commandments that doesn't benefit us physically, mentally or spiritually, so it's a win win situation for believers.]
If this is what you believe that’s great. Please send me a copy of your Quran as it seems to portray a vastly different picture of my Saheen International copy given to me as a gift from the Muslim Centre Belleville Cape Town SA.
[I wrote,
"Hi,
All Prophets were given powers by the permission of GOD. Moses pbuh against the magicians, Jesus pbuh showed signs of wonder to a society making medical advancements, Muhammad pbuh to a people who were in awe of poets and those showing eloquence in public speaking."
Acts 2:22 "O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you..." Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus. Jesus thus even to his disciples, was a man, not a God, which was something that developed over decades amongst a Pagan mindset.
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You responded:
DWA2DAY said:
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Which prophets claimed to be One with God the Father?
Only Jesus Christ.
Yes and only in John's Gospel and being at one is just being one in purpose as shown earlier.
DWA2DAY said:
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Yes you are correct Jesus Christ is a MAN. Yet more than a man which our limited understanding allows us to perceive. Even the Quran states that this Man the Messiah was sinless something not even Mohammad could claim.
Think about this fact for a moment - one who lived for 33 years never had an impure thought, never lied, never treat a fellow human badly, never cursed, never hated, never had a though or desire for revenge. Just came to show the power of God love for His Children us. Wow........
Click to expand...
All Prophets are considered without sin in Islam, and no distinction is made between them. 33 years of Jesus' life are not recorded. The story picks up for 1 year in the Synoptics or 3.5 years in John's Gospel. Anyway what NT are you reading because he refers to his own Mother as 'woman', ignores her when she is waiting outside to take him home, curses the Canaanite woman, tells his Companion that he's got Satan inside of him, curses the Fig tree, remarks that his enemies should be brought before him and slain if they don't accept him as King over them.]
Yes I agree Islam Tradition says that all the prophets are sinless, yet this is not what the Quran or the bible says is it. The only person or prophet ever to be said to be sinless in both the Quran and the Bible is Jesus Christ.
Thus you need to decide if you accept the teachings and dogmas of Islamic tradition or do you accept the teachings of the Quran. There is a vast difference between the two. Even Mohammad said he had sinned and the Hadith confirm he prayed and asked for forgiveness.
Again I question what your faith is if you do not follow the basic teachings of the Quran. Further failing to understand the basics of your faith gives me understanding as to why you do not understand the Bible covernants.
[I don't know if any of these things are genuine are true representations of Jesus pbuh or just hearsay recorded by 'non eyewitnesses', as we know all 4 Gospels to be.]
We have tackled this in the past – and again I must just laugh at your lack of understand and acceptance of the vast amount of evidence for the accuracy of the Biblical narrative you chose to ignore.
Yet you fail to apply the same stand to the Quran due to the fear of the implication you would find.
[Jesus pbuh came to help the Jews back onto the straight path and to be grateful 'slaves' of God, who had favoured them over all of mankind.]
Yes I agree in context of my explanation above re slaves in a willing relationship of free will and not the Islamic perception of Master Slave attitued we one simplr must follow and the right of free will and expression are void. Surah 5:21-22 19:93
[DWA2DAY said:
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It time we grasped this in the truth and enormity of its expression.
It's time you reflected on why you worship a man who himself said, he has a God to whom he prayed to for help and guidance.]
Oh Mr Muslim-UK I find some of your remarks so endearing, I truly wish I could just give you a big hug in love and in the hopes that some of the Holy Spirt my rub off on to you. Jesus loves you so much if you could see this you would be truly humbled.
[I wrote,
Finally to remove any doubt the Doctrine is not from God, He makes clear in his Final Revelation to mankind to reject the terrible idea and return back to him or count amongst the losers in the hereafter.
DWA2DAY said:
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I assume the final revelation you speaking of is the Quran.
Yet the Quran teaches that Jesus Christ is central to is message, (mentioning Jesus by name 25 time and Mohammad only four)
It also teaches that all the prophets before gave the same message.
The Quran further goes on to say if your are in doubt / confused as you seem to be refere to the scriptures before it.
Moses pbuh is mentioned some 150 times, what's your point? The Qur'an told Muhammad pbuh if he doubted he was receiving revelation from God, then go to the people of the book who would confirm, God does indeed send glad tidings to those whom he chooses to raise amongst mankind. I'm sure you know this, but if not, I'll post the relevant Hadith.]
Sorry for clarity my point is simply that all the prophets have one thing in common – they all point to Jesus Christ and it is time Muslims saw this and began to act on the his teachings.
[DWA2DAY said:
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Jesus said "Ask in my name and it shall be given unto you. John 14:13
Give it a try- you have nothing to lose. In fact the Quran instructs you to ask the Christians and Jews for advise when in doubt, which you seem to be. So be faithful to the teaching of the Quran and pray for a revelation from Jesus.
Do not take this the wrong way, but anyone who calls upon anyone other than GOD Himself for guidance and help is opening themselves up to be deceived by mischievous Spirits. I would love to meet someone in real life who claims to have a spirit from God inside them, as if they allowed, I could God willing show them within 20 mins they are being deceived. But remember, there's no compulsion in Religion, so if you have something within you causing you to feel warm and fuzzy, then carry on. Just don't expect it to be around when you return to God.]
Deserves not comment.
[DWA2DAY said:
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I to have read the Quran and find it the most confusing and contradictory book of faith I have ever read. In fact on its own as a literary work it makes no sense at all. Even with reference to the Tafsir I find it still confusing.
For example Allah loves the righteous doer yet hates the sinner. what god creates something to hate.
But this is off topic and just wanted to comment on your post.
Click to expand...
I'll comment on this too. GOD creates good and evil and gives mankind guidance so they reject that which is evil, we in turn use our freewill to be obedient slaves or rebellious self serving individuals.]
This is an Islamic concept and thats great if you wish to believe Allah is or has the capacity for Evil. However this is not the biblical teaching.
In addition there is no freewill in Islam, the Quran clearly state that nothing is done that is not willed by Allah. Surah 3:47 for example. Another example of you either not understanding your own text or you are ignorant of them.
[I wrote,
Not Judas because he failed to submit his will to God. The others, yes all were believers and accepted Monotheism.
2 Peter is said not to be written by him. Matthew did not write the Gospel according to Matthew, the anonymous Gospel was later ascribed to him. John too did not write the Gospel attributed to him, and the book of Revelation was disputed and not accepted as inspired for hundreds of years. The original works are all lost and what we have left are according to a leading NT Scholar, Professor Bart Ehrman, copies of
copies of
copies of
copies of
copies and all these copies in bold are lost. We can only reconstruct the complete Bible back to the 4th Century.
Click to expand...]
I was not going to comment on this but let’s have some fun.
The Islamic standard of equal scales must be applied and since this is an Islamic concept you cannot deny this.
So we have one of two options, accept our respective faith sacred text or accept what man says about the respective text and in doing so we exclude God / Allah from the picture while we make up our own specialised faith.
From the above clearly you do not accept the Quran as authorative on your life as you have been selective in its teachings to give body to your respective arguments as seen above. So we then are left with what man says and the equal scales.
Well Bart also say the oral tradition does not work and is the broken telephone, Jay smith says the Quran was not written down until the 9th century. Then Islamic scholar could only agree to its format and canonised the Quran in 1924. The Islamic Hadith confirm Mohammad as been a false prophet see Surah 69.
What a happily little bun fight we can have, ----- personally I am not interested, what does interest me is what does the text say, the rest is just Islamic gymnastic because you either cannot deal with what the text says out of fear for its implications or you simple are not equipped to do so.
[DWA2DAY said:
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If they are lost please explain surah 10:94, 5:47, 7:157, all your sacred text pointing to prove the bible as we have it today was in the hands of Mohammed, who understood it and who Allah specifically told Mohammad to refer to.
Besides the point the Allah has promised to protect his word. surha 18:27
Thus your post tells me you do not believe your own text, or you have another faith which looks like Islam but with some personal twists in it.
Thus my question is do you believe th Quran is true or not?
Click to expand...
Ok let's look at those verses and the explanations given by the Prophet pbuh:
The context to 10:94 starts a few verses prior, Allah swt is explaining how he aided Moses pbuh in his struggle with Pharaoh and settled them in safety, after which he sent them regular guidance.
Muhammad pbuh had doubts from where his revelation was initially coming from and tried to resist it. Verse 94 should now make sense:
So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters. Qur'an 10:94
The context to 5:47 also starts a few verses prior (see 5:43) and the Hadith which explains it is as follows:
The Jews brought [to the Prophet peace be upon him] a man and a woman among them who committed adultery. The Prophet peace be upon him said, "Bring the two most knowledgeable men from amongst you." The Jews brought the two sons of Suriyya, and the Prophet peace be upon him asked them, "What punishment do you find in the Torah regarding these two?" They said, "In the Torah,
we find that if four men testify that they saw his male organ in her womb, similar to when the eyeliner is inserted inside the eyeliner container; in this case they are stoned." The Prophet peace be upon him said, "What made you stop stoning?" They said, "Our kingship (meaning Jewish) was taken from us and we hated killing." The Messenger of Allah asked for four witnesses and they brought four men who testified that they saw his penis in her womb like the eyeliner is inserted in the eyeliner container. The Messenger of Allah ordered that the two [adulterers] are stoned.
(Sunan Abu Dawud, Hadith no. 3862, Source. Sheikh Albani declared this hadith authentic in Sunan Abu Dawud, hadith no.4452)
So the Prophet pbuh was being tested and God rightly responds;
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient. Qur'an 5:47
Was the punishment for adultery prescribed in what Allah swt had revealed to the Jews? Yes in
Leviticus 20:10.
7:157 reads,
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.
I'm not sure how this verse helps you, if anything you will staunchly deny Muhammad pbuh is mentioned in either book.
So yes, I fully believe the Qur'an and declare Allah swt alone is worthy of worship.]
So you believe in the Quran – yet you have to rely on the Hadith which has no relationship with the Quran other than the person Mohammed, written hundreds of years after Mohammed. This in terms of textual criticism as your quoted Bart would say is not reliable and would not be considered accurate.
While the Quran states clearly in 6:114 and 41:3 for example it is clear and in detail for us to understand. So just read it it says it has sufficient detail to be understood.
So let us stay with the text of the Quran – Keep the text in context of the revelation and not the fabricated stories of the Hadiths.
With regard to your comment on 7:157 ….. Interesting you choose to read only the first line of the verse and not the whole verse. So allow me to add……. Who will be successful …………….. the people who follow the Torah and the Gospel …… Not the Quran.
So you say 10:94 is relating to vs 88. Yet verse 93 clearly moves on from the reference of Moses. Again seen as your poor attempt to move the focus of the text we discussing and thus misrepresenting the truth of 10:94 ---- Yet we understand Muslim may deceive people of another faith for the benefit of Islam – known as Taqiyya – yet this brings no honour to your faith but exposes it for what it is. A religion of deceit.
5:47 you say start at verse 43 yet these verse have nothing to do with your explanation what so ever. Keep it simple stick to the text – this is the revelation of Allah not man’s fabrication written 300 years after the event.
You see Muslim UK if you truly believe in the Quran – then follow its teaching it is clear detailed and written for our benefit. Time to start using it and stop following the man.
