Limited vs unlimited atonement?

jimmyjimmy said:

People aren't "sent to Hell" for refusing to be Christians". People are condemned to Hell for their sin.

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Please explain Rev 20:15 then.

jimmyjimmy said:

Population at this moment: 7.5 billion. How many billions have died, as well? Most aren't saved. The road is wide that leads to destruction, and many are on it. If Christ died FOR these people (He didn't) then His blood was wasted.

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No, it wasn't. Only their excuse for never receiving the dfree gift of eternal life, which would have kept them out of the lake of fire, was removed.

If Christ had not died for any person, they WOULD HAVE an excuse for going to hell. The very fact that Christ hadn't died for them.

They could legitimately say that they weren't chosen for heaven, as the elect were, if limited atonement were true.

But no one will have any excuse as they experience the lake of fire. The gift is free and available to everyone, because Christ died for everyone. Just as the Bible says in plain language.

MDC said:

Your denial that salvation is by the election of grace, shows why you espouse an atonement that doesn't save in and of itself.

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You're wrong again about what I believe. Salvation is by grace. Eph 2:8 says so.

And you cannot find any Scripture that says that the atonement saves. Or any verse that says that grace is by election. In fact, Rom 11:32 refutes that idea.

The elect of God benefit from Christ's substitutionary atonement by faith. And these elect were redeemed by His blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Rev. 5:9.

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The error in Calvinism is thinking that election is being chosen for salvation. It isn't.

Election is about being chosen for service. Christ Himself is called The Elect One.

As well, the nation of Israel was chosen, not for salvation, but for service.

The Bible describes elect angels. Even Paul's election was for service: Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

GillDouglas said:

But surely if God has elected some and not all to eternal life, then the primary purpose of Christ's work was to redeem those that were elected.

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And Scripture never suggests that God elected anyone to eternal life. Eternal life is available to all men. Titus 2:11

jimmyjimmy said:

Yes. That makes perfect sense, but not many have ears to hear it. If some are lost eternal, Christ did not die on their behalf. If He had, they would not be numbered among the lost.

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If this were true, then all who go to hell have a very legitimate excuse; Christ did not die for them, and they weren't chosen for heaven.

Because it simply comes down to this: the Calvinist misunderstanding of election means that God chose some for heaven and some for hell, all without any conditions attached.

Which is patently false, since we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, and not of works. Eph 1:28,9

The Bible does not teach that God chose anyone for either heaven or hell. In fact, because the free gift of eternal life is available to everyone, each person makes that choice themselves.

jimmyjimmy said:

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."

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The Greek word for "many" means "the people" or "the masses".

From which we get the term "hoi polloi", meaning the masses.

Christ died for the masses of people. Not certain groups or group.

JLB777 said:

Those who believe are saved.

• lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13


Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

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When are you going to prove this from Scripture? Opinions prove nothing.

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28.

Your view is that "those He gives eternal life AND continue in the faith will never perish".

Your view is different than Jesus' words.

FreeGrace2 said:

I did a search and found that he didn't. I had read an excerpt once which certainly sounded as though he did. And the article containing that excerpt indicated that he did.

So I retract my former statement regarding his view.

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I would be interested in the article you viewed if you still have it. Thanks.

JLB777 said:

Those who believe are saved.

• lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13


Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

JLB

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And this is the paradox in which Spurgeon spoke of. Now confirming the Sovereignty of God:

John 6: NKJV

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Embrace the paradox.

Fish14 said:

I know God draws only some to salvation. But if Jesus died for the sins of unbelievers, they will still go to Hell, because they have committed the unforgivable sin, continued unbelief.

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There is a difference between unforgiven and unforgivable.

Continued unbelief may be unforgiven because it has not been repented of. But if a sin is unforgivable it means it cannot be forgiven even if repented from.

FreeGrace2 said:

This in no way supports the idea that God chooses who will believe.

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You added the 'modifier' "who will believe."

It is evident from the John 6 passages that God chooses. We cannot escape this fact as Jesus makes mention later in John 6:

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

And here reaffirmed:

Matthew 16: NKJV

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


All I'm pointing out is the Sovereignty of the Father to call sinners to Christ; and Christ stating that all the Father gives Him, He will not lose. That's not Calvin, that's the plain words of Jesus Christ as posted above.

Jesus explains to Nicodemus how this is accomplished:

John 3: NKJV

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

No one 'captures' this or calls it to themselves. Another demonstration of God's Sovereign Will.

Not to confuse a 'calling' with choosing we have this:

Matthew 22: NKJV

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

FreeGrace2 said:

And Scripture never suggests that God elected anyone to eternal life. Eternal life is available to all men. Titus 2:11

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Yet the apostle Paul teaches the following:

Romans 8: NKJV

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

FreeGrace2 said:

When are you going to prove this from Scripture? Opinions prove nothing.

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish, in John 10:28.

Your view is that "those He gives eternal life AND continue in the faith will never perish".

Your view is different than Jesus' words.

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Wouldn't it be great if John 10:28 was the only verse in the bible, in which there is no context to contend with or other words from Jesus and Paul and Peter and James and John?

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:25-30

First of all, the context is a reference to His 12 disciples, and not all of the Church in general.

This is clearly seen from the context.

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16


Second, Jesus qualifies who His sheep are in the preceding verse's.

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

We know that sheep can become lost, as is the case with Judas Iscariot, who heard His voice and followed Him for 3 1/2 years, and was promoted to an Apostle, then empowered and sent as a sheep to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, cast out devils and raise the dead, showing forth the signs of those who believe, then he became a traitor and fell away, having betrayed Him.

• And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. Matthew 10:1-4

You will need to show from the scriptures that Jesus empowers "unbelievers" to preach the Gospel, and heal the sick, and cast out devils, to have a valid point that Judas Iscariot never believed.


Sheep can indeed become lost:


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



This foundational truth can not be changed by quoting other scriptures.


JLB

JLB777 said:

First of all, the context is a reference to His 12 disciples, and not all of the Church in general.

This is clearly seen from the context.

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16

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I think that a more satisfactory interpretation would be that Jesus is referring to Jews and gentiles. Gentiles being the "other sheep".

FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"But there aren't any verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is basically the foundation for reformed election."

Of course not. But you failed to address my point. Reformed election leads to the necessity of God choosing who will believe. So, where is that found in Scripture?

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How about defining the meaning of sovereignty and there you will find your answer. A necessary by-product of sovereignty is power over everything. "Upholding all things by the word of His power" (Hebrews 1:3)

Sure. But, basically, that means that God chose who would believe.

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He did elect some, and He enables those elect.

Sure. Affirmed by the reformed doctrine of irresistible grace.

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Which is why we have any believers among the unbelievers, at all.

But the bottom line is still that God chooses who will believe. Which makes evangelism meaningless. But I know that Calvinists cannot see this.

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Evangelism is not meaningless, it is the means in which God would use a person/event to bring the elect to Him.

jimmyjimmy said:

Have you actually read any of the Reformers?

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I have read many of them - of course.

jimmyjimmy said:

They didn't mince their words or fail to use humor/sarcasm or even a peppering of ad hominem in their arguments. Don't mistake my style for my seriousness.

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Very well then. No harm no foul. We can continue on that basis.

But you did question seriously whether I should be considered Reformed. Did you not?

It looks like you're about to double down with your next question for me. Perhaps I can head it off at the pass.

jimmyjimmy said:

I believe you are/were an elder in the PCUSA. Is that the case?

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Yes - for many year.

And for those many years I subscribed to limited atonement without giving it a whole lot of thought and without much regard to the way it offended most Christians outside the 5-poing Calvinist camp.

Of course, as an elder who had taken various vows, I taught the same as I thought the confessions demanded.

The confessions of the P.C.U.S.A., by the way and to forstall any discussion that assumes otherwise, do not address limited atonement - even the Westminster which I still hold in enough high regard to have suffered much abuse here in the forum because I often refer to it.

jimmyjimmy said:

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."
"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."
"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."

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You're better than to just spout multiple quotes like that. Don't you agree?

Either way - that verse does not address the subject at hand.

Marvin Knox said:

I have read many of them - of course.

Very well then. No harm no foul. We can continue on that basis.

But you did question seriously whether I should be considered Reformed. Did you not?

It looks like you're about to double down with your next question for me. Perhaps I can head it off at the pass.

Yes - for many year.

And for those many years I subscribed to limited atonement without giving it a whole lot of thought and without much regard to the way it offended most Christians outside the 5-poing Calvinist camp.

Of course, as an elder who had taken various vows, I taught the same as I thought the confessions demanded.

The confessions of the P.C.U.S.A., by the way and to forstall any discussion that assumes otherwise, do not address limited atonement - even the Westminster which I still hold in enough high regard to have suffered much abuse here in the forum because I often refer to it.

You're better than to just spout multiple quotes like that. Don't you agree?

Either way - that verse does not address the subject at hand.

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Does the PCUSA ordain women and homosexuals?

jimmyjimmy said:

Does the PCUSA ordain women and homosexuals?

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Yes for women and in many very liberal churches homosexuals.

The weariness of keeping liberalism at bay for a dozen years was one of the reasons I finally left.

There were still many good conservatives in the church a few decades ago. But I don't doubt that most of them have finally given up their good fight there as I finally did.

By the way - when I referred to TULIP (not something in the confessions of that church - as I said) - I highly nuanced each point as it is so poorly worded.

Is there a point to the women and homosexual question? You weren't intending to throw mud were you?

There wouldn't be much humor to be found in that "style" now would there?

Marvin Knox said:

Is there a point to the women and homosexual question?

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Yes. There is a point. Did you condone these things? If so, why? If not, why did you remain?

I ask for reasons pertaining to this thread.

jimmyjimmy said:

Do murderers go to the chair because they murdered or because they didn't clemency from the governor?

Sinners will be punished for their crimes.

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Since every mature adult has sinner the determining factor will be those that are forgiven and those that have not had their sins forgiven. With murders and non-murders going to the chair there those that murdered and those that did not murder, there are those that got caught before they died and those that did not get caught and there are those that murdered and those false accused of murder that go to the chair depending on the clemency of the Governor. Throughout history there have been those that went to the chair who did not deserve to go to the chair.