Negativity and crisis of faith

Jan001

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Jan001,

Forgive my poor explanation.
I do not think “good” in Genesis 1:31 is making the point that “Only God is all-good.”
Good in this verse is an adverb modifying the quality of what was made by Elohim.
There is nothing intended in this verse either about the character of Elohim or of humans in verse 27.

In the previous post the word “man” was used to mean the man and woman made in his image (v.27). The only point I wished to make is that theologians generally make the distinction between the first man and woman (Adam and Eve) being created innocent rather than tagging them as “good.” If they were good in the sense of righteousness they would have to have had the knowledge of good and evil to make such a righteous decision.

My comment was never intended to be understood as claiming the Bible never referred to people as good.

I do think that God created Adam and Eve spiritually righteous, meaning that they were in right relationship with God as soon as they were created.

So, just as the angels were created spiritually righteous, Adam and Eve were created spiritually righteous.

Some of the righteous angels chose to sin against God through disobedience to Him and therefore they lost their righteousness (fellowship with God) and so they became spiritual enemies of God. These angels were then cast out of heaven. Luke 10:18

Adam and Eve also chose to sin against God through disobedience to His commandment and therefore they lost their righteousness (fellowship with God) and so they became spiritual enemies of God. Adam and Eve were then cast out of the Garden of Eden. Genesis 3:21-24

Before Adam and Eve sinned/disobeyed by eating the forbidden fruit, they were innocent regarding the knowledge and possibility of any other sins. Their eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil caused them to lose their righteousness and so they then became knowledgeable about other sins and also capable of desiring them and doing them. In other words, selfishness replaced righteousness/godliness. Romans 5:10-15


The term righteous seems to be interchangeable with the term good. Genesis 6:9, Genesis 15:3-6, Genesis 18:26

In making your reply, you have referenced Proverbs, Matthew, and John. Indeed, these scriptures state some are good. It is interesting that the verses from Proverbs do not have the word “man” in the Hebrew. “Good” is used like a pronoun implying a person of a particular quality or character. Therefore, in these verses from Proverbs the Hebrew word "good" is the the person. Excellent references to prove your point.

Thank you for your kind words. :)

Evil or good


It is the spiritual state of a person's soul at the time of his death which determines where he will spend eternity. Ezekiel 33:10-20

On Judgment Day, Jesus will not be asking a person if he believed in Him. Instead, the person's own works will either judge him to be worthy to inherit eternal life or unworthy to inherit eternal life.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. rsv

Matthew 25:31-46 The Sheep and the Goats

1 Timothy 5:8
If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. rsv

Matthew 12:36-37
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” rsv

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. rsv

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. rsv







 
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the old scribe

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I do think that God created Adam and Eve spiritually righteous, meaning that they were in right relationship with God as soon as they were created.

So, just as the angels were created spiritually righteous, Adam and Eve were created spiritually righteous.

Some of the righteous angels chose to sin against God through disobedience to Him and therefore they lost their righteousness (fellowship with God) and so they became spiritual enemies of God. These angels were then cast out of heaven. Luke 10:18

Adam and Eve also chose to sin against God through disobedience to His commandment and therefore they lost their righteousness (fellowship with God) and so they became spiritual enemies of God. Adam and Eve were then cast out of the Garden of Eden. Genesis 3:21-24

Before Adam and Eve sinned/disobeyed by eating the forbidden fruit, they were innocent regarding the knowledge and possibility of any other sins. Their eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil caused them to lose their righteousness and so they then became knowledgeable about other sins and also capable of desiring them and doing them. In other words, selfishness replaced righteousness/godliness. Romans 5:10-15


The term righteous seems to be interchangeable with the term good. Genesis 6:9, Genesis 15:3-6, Genesis 18:26



Thank you for your kind words. :)

Evil or good


It is the spiritual state of a person's soul at the time of his death which determines where he will spend eternity. Ezekiel 33:10-20

On Judgment Day, Jesus will not be asking a person if he believed in Him. Instead, the person's own works will either judge him to be worthy to inherit eternal life or unworthy to inherit eternal life.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. rsv

Matthew 25:31-46 The Sheep and the Goats

1 Timothy 5:8
If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. rsv

Matthew 12:36-37
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” rsv

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. rsv

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. rsv

Yes, you are making the alternative argument about the spiritual nature of Adam and Eve - which is - they were made righteous. My point is that most theologians have elected to go with innocent. The difference in their decisions occurs when their systematized theologies become contradictory to other positions requiring a change in the initial position on the spiritual nature of Adam and Eve, so as not to conflict with doctrines they see as recorded in declarative sentences.

On judgment day scriptures - You are returning to the time of the old hell fire and brimstone preachers. The gospel message should always remind unbelievers of the alternative and believers of obediently following Christ.





 
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Jan001

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Yes, you are making the alternative argument about the spiritual nature of Adam and Eve - which is - they were made righteous. My point is that most theologians have elected to go with innocent. The difference in their decisions occurs when their systematized theologies become contradictory to other positions requiring a change in the initial position on the spiritual nature of Adam and Eve, so as not to conflict with doctrines they see as recorded in declarative sentences.

Very interesting. I am curious as to what they found to be contradictory.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Behold, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many devices. rsv

It is difficult for a person to commit a sin if he does not first think about committing the sin.

Genesis 20:10
And Abim′elech said to Abraham, “What were you thinking of, that you did this thing?” rsv

Psalm 119:59
When I think of thy ways, I turn my feet to thy testimonies; rsv

Matthew 9:4
But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? rsv

Romans 1:21
for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. rsv​


Adam knew that if he ate the fruit that Eve offered to him, that he would be disobeying God. Adam ate the fruit because he chose to please Eve instead of obeying God.

When they ate the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve fell from grace/righteousness. They lost their right relationship/righteousness with God when they sinned. They lost their spiritual relationship with God when they sinned.


On judgment day scriptures - You are returning to the time of the old hell fire and brimstone preachers. The gospel message should always remind unbelievers of the alternative and believers of obediently following Christ.

Yes, the gospel message is a hopeful message for Jesus Christ's obedient disciples. However, Jesus and His apostles/disciples warned the disobedient Christians about hell. The NT was primarily written for Jesus' followers.

Jesus' true disciples are the people who discipline themselves to obey His commands.
Matthew 28:19-20, Ephesians 6:4, 1 Corinthians 9:27

Luke 13:22-27
He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ rsv​

Jude 1:17-23
But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 they said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19 It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And convince some, who doubt; 23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. rsv

 
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Jan001

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Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. rsv
 
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the old scribe

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Very interesting. I am curious as to what they found to be contradictory.

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Behold, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many devices. rsv

It is difficult for a person to commit a sin if he does not first think about committing the sin.

Genesis 20:10
And Abim′elech said to Abraham, “What were you thinking of, that you did this thing?” rsv

Psalm 119:59
When I think of thy ways, I turn my feet to thy testimonies; rsv

Matthew 9:4
But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? rsv

Romans 1:21
for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. rsv​


Adam knew that if he ate the fruit that Eve offered to him, that he would be disobeying God. Adam ate the fruit because he chose to please Eve instead of obeying God.

When they ate the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve fell from grace/righteousness. They lost their right relationship/righteousness with God when they sinned. They lost their spiritual relationship with God when they sinned.




Yes, the gospel message is a hopeful message for Jesus Christ's obedient disciples. However, Jesus and His apostles/disciples warned the disobedient Christians about hell. The NT was primarily written for Jesus' followers.

Jesus' true disciples are the people who discipline themselves to obey His commands.
Matthew 28:19-20, Ephesians 6:4, 1 Corinthians 9:27

Luke 13:22-27
He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ rsv​

Jude 1:17-23
But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 they said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19 It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And convince some, who doubt; 23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. rsv

-------------------------

Jan001,

Taking your post in reverse order –

Quoting you, “The NT was primarily written for Jesus' followers.”

This statement you made is probably the most important perspective needed to interpret the New Testament correctly. Another way this is said is the scriptures were not written to me but for me.

Recognizing this perspective is a hurdle for all true believers because . . . . believers . . . . real believers . . . . . when they read the Bible it is with the Holy Ghost applying the words to their hearts and minds. The Bible is the “word” of YHWH speaking to the believer as made relevant by the Holy Ghost. Reading the recorded “word” and having the Holy Ghost minister to us is an enormous spiritual and emotional experience - and it should be.

This is the primary entrance into the “word” of YHWH and is always the truth for the individual believer. This is why organizations like Wycliff just translate the Bible into native tongues and leave the rest to the Holy Ghost. One must have trust in the LORD and know the difference between our job and the job of the Holy Ghost to depend solely upon recorded scripture given to a pagan people.

However, to step back and ask what does this passage actually mean (interpretation) requires a different perspective. The very first stepping back is to recognize “scriptures were not written to me but for me.” The next step is to ask what did this passage mean to those who received the original text? These are rational steps but not entirely outside the prerogative of the Holy Ghost. But it is at this point Christians begin to have differences of opinion or interpretation.

Returning to the issue of Adam as innocent or righteous: . . . here are some sites

Which position a believer holds is not important to me. My effort is to aid believers in working on a coherent systematic theology as a firm foundation for their faith.

Original righteousness:

http://cpaj.mackenzie.br/fidesreformata/arquivos/edicao_34/artigos/247.pdf

Adam not Innocent, but Holy.

The Foundation of Righteousness

Original innocence:

Human Nature in its Fourfold State

Did God create Adam and Eve with free will and knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil)?

Our Relationship With God | Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary

Catholic - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Things pertaining to the first man's will--namely, grace and righteousness (Prima Pars, Q. 95)

American Journal of Biblical Theology

Adam Before and After the Fall - Perfecting of the Saints

Original righteousness and original innocence are the same thing – Jonathan Edwards:

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/sbet/15-2_127.pdf

http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/works1.vi.iv.i.i.html
 
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the old scribe

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I'd just like to sincerely thank everyone for the kind responses I have received, the encouragement and prayer. It is much appreciated.

Dear Quid est Veritas?,

"What is the truth" about all of our posts. We need to know so we might grow in service. Given your time and inclination, I suspect we all would like your honest and critical evaluation of what was beneficial and what wasn't? Maybe, one at a time for each post. If we are not mature enough to accept what you tell us, then we shouldn't be posting to those in crisis.

Regardless, our prayers from broken hearts are for you and your wife.
Thank you for trusting the brothers and sisters of whom your sole connection is in Christ.
Such is the the supernatural.
 
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Jan001

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Jan001,

Taking your post in reverse order –

Quoting you, “The NT was primarily written for Jesus' followers.”

This statement you made is probably the most important perspective needed to interpret the New Testament correctly. Another way this is said is the scriptures were not written to me but for me.

Recognizing this perspective is a hurdle for all true believers because . . . . believers . . . . real believers . . . . . when they read the Bible it is with the Holy Ghost applying the words to their hearts and minds. The Bible is the “word” of YHWH speaking to the believer as made relevant by the Holy Ghost. Reading the recorded “word” and having the Holy Ghost minister to us is an enormous spiritual and emotional experience - and it should be.

This is the primary entrance into the “word” of YHWH and is always the truth for the individual believer. This is why organizations like Wycliff just translate the Bible into native tongues and leave the rest to the Holy Ghost. One must have trust in the LORD and know the difference between our job and the job of the Holy Ghost to depend solely upon recorded scripture given to a pagan people.

However, to step back and ask what does this passage actually mean (interpretation) requires a different perspective. The very first stepping back is to recognize “scriptures were not written to me but for me.” The next step is to ask what did this passage mean to those who received the original text? These are rational steps but not entirely outside the prerogative of the Holy Ghost. But it is at this point Christians begin to have differences of opinion or interpretation.

Returning to the issue of Adam as innocent or righteous: . . . here are some sites

Which position a believer holds is not important to me. My effort is to aid believers in working on a coherent systematic theology as a firm foundation for their faith.

Original righteousness:

http://cpaj.mackenzie.br/fidesreformata/arquivos/edicao_34/artigos/247.pdf

Adam not Innocent, but Holy.

The Foundation of Righteousness

Original innocence:

Human Nature in its Fourfold State

Did God create Adam and Eve with free will and knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil)?

Our Relationship With God | Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary

Catholic - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Things pertaining to the first man's will--namely, grace and righteousness (Prima Pars, Q. 95)

American Journal of Biblical Theology

Adam Before and After the Fall - Perfecting of the Saints

Original righteousness and original innocence are the same thing – Jonathan Edwards:

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/sbet/15-2_127.pdf

Works of Jonathan Edwards, Volume One - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Thank you for your links. I see that you have put much thought into your study of the Scriptures.

It seems to me that if all people who claim that they are being taught by the Holy Ghost actually are being taught by Him, that all these people would then believe the exact same things about each topic instead of some persons believing one way and others believing in other ways about each topic. It seems to me that the Holy Ghost would have taught every one of them that Adam was created righteous/upright and not merely innocent/ignorant. :)

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Behold, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many devices. rsv

Romans 5:12
Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned— rsv

Romans 5:16
And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. rsv

Romans 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous. rsv​
 
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LadyCrosstalk

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Thank you for your links. I see that you have put much thought into your study of the Scriptures.

It seems to me that if all people who claim that they are being taught by the Holy Ghost actually are being taught by Him, that all these people would then believe the exact same things about each topic instead of some persons believing one way and others believing in other ways about each topic. It seems to me that the Holy Ghost would have taught every one of them that Adam was created righteous/upright and not merely innocent/ignorant. :)

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Behold, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many devices. rsv

Romans 5:12
Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned— rsv

Romans 5:16
And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. rsv

Romans 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous. rsv​


I think the problem is one of having to deal with the limitations of language. We not only have many different languages in the world but we have our own personal meanings with which we flavor our speech. Anyone who has ever worked as an interpreter will tell you that decisions must be made, on-the-fly, about how to convey the correct meaning of the speaker's words to one who does not understand the speaker's language.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the Bible further explains that Eve WAS deceived (in her naivete) but that Adam was not. God judged Adam's sin as the greater sin because Adam failed to protect Eve (Adam was right there when she was seduced by Satan) and then compounded the catastrophe by deliberately disobeying God's explicit instructions to him. We tend to lump Adam and Eve together when the Bible does not.
 
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the old scribe

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It seems to me that if all people who claim that they are being taught by the Holy Ghost actually are being taught by Him, that all these people would then believe the exact same things about each topic instead of some persons believing one way and others believing in other ways about each topic. It seems to me that the Holy Ghost would have taught every one of them that Adam was created righteous/upright and not merely innocent/ignorant. :)

Yes, this a conundrum. from a previous post is this quote "
. . . . when they read the Bible it is with the Holy Ghost applying the words to their hearts and minds. The Bible is the “word” of YHWH speaking to the believer as made relevant by the Holy Ghost. Reading the recorded “word” and having the Holy Ghost minister to us is an enormous spiritual and emotional experience - and it should be.

This is the primary entrance into the “word” of YHWH and is always the truth for the individual believer. This is why organizations like Wycliff just translate the Bible into native tongues and leave the rest to the Holy Ghost. One must have trust in the LORD and know the difference between our job and the job of the Holy Ghost to depend solely upon recorded scripture given to a pagan people."

I suspect believers confuse the ministry of the Holy Ghost to us with being the same as the correct interpretation of scripture. Common is the experience of having people hear from preaching something entirely different from what was preached. It is so common that we might conclude the Holy Ghost speaks so loudly in ministering to our needs that all else is obscured.

The term juvenile believer does not refer to the age but the progress in sanctification. It is appropriate for a recent believer to be a juvenile in how much change has occurred but may be inappropriate for those of a longer faith. We believers need to be taught that each child of the LORD progresses at a pace relevant to their hunger and thirst and to their circumstances and trails. However, at some point believers must begin to practice both love and humility toward the brothers and the sisters and to encourage the juveniles to do the same.

I know both mentally challenged and the very bright whose faith, trust, and love leave me without adequate explanation of how can they be so Christ like while I stumble along. I have an excuse. They must be angels in disguise.

On the other hand, I know others who are so pitifully poor in their faith they need all the help available from the congregation.

It is in part, that these enormous differences are why the divine plan of redemption had to be available through grace and not some other factor. Generally, we are the people of the LORD called out from the worldly norm but come as a stupid and ornery people in the process of being sanctified.
 
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LadyCrosstalk

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Yes, this a conundrum. from a previous post is this quote "
. . . . when they read the Bible it is with the Holy Ghost applying the words to their hearts and minds. The Bible is the “word” of YHWH speaking to the believer as made relevant by the Holy Ghost. Reading the recorded “word” and having the Holy Ghost minister to us is an enormous spiritual and emotional experience - and it should be.

This is the primary entrance into the “word” of YHWH and is always the truth for the individual believer. This is why organizations like Wycliff just translate the Bible into native tongues and leave the rest to the Holy Ghost. One must have trust in the LORD and know the difference between our job and the job of the Holy Ghost to depend solely upon recorded scripture given to a pagan people."

I suspect believers confuse the ministry of the Holy Ghost to us with being the same as the correct interpretation of scripture. Common is the experience of having people hear from preaching something entirely different from what was preached. It is so common that we might conclude the Holy Ghost speaks so loudly in ministering to our needs that all else is obscured.

The term juvenile believer does not refer to the age but the progress in sanctification. It is appropriate for a recent believer to be a juvenile in how much change has occurred but may be inappropriate for those of a longer faith. We believers need to be taught that each child of the LORD progresses at a pace relevant to their hunger and thirst and to their circumstances and trails. However, at some point believers must begin to practice both love and humility toward the brothers and the sisters and to encourage the juveniles to do the same.

I know both mentally challenged and the very bright whose faith, trust, and love leave me without adequate explanation of how can they be so Christ like while I stumble along. I have an excuse. They must be angels in disguise.

On the other hand, I know others who are so pitifully poor in their faith they need all the help available from the congregation.

It is in part, that these enormous differences are why the divine plan of redemption had to be available through grace and not some other factor. Generally, we are the people of the LORD called out from the worldly norm but come as a stupid and ornery people in the process of being sanctified.

Yes, in general, I would say that those who are truly in the Body, agree on the important issues. That is why they are called doctrine--a.k.a. standard teaching, derived from Scripture. We may, at times, differ in our interpretation which impacts lesser issues. I suspect that it is, as you said, dependent on where we are in our walk of faith.
 
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Jan001

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I think the problem is one of having to deal with the limitations of language. We not only have many different languages in the world but we have our own personal meanings with which we flavor our speech. Anyone who has ever worked as an interpreter will tell you that decisions must be made, on-the-fly, about how to convey the correct meaning of the speaker's words to one who does not understand the speaker's language.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the Bible further explains that Eve WAS deceived (in her naivete) but that Adam was not. God judged Adam's sin as the greater sin because Adam failed to protect Eve (Adam was right there when she was seduced by Satan) and then compounded the catastrophe by deliberately disobeying God's explicit instructions to him. We tend to lump Adam and Eve together when the Bible does not.

I agree about the limitations of language.

Adam chose to disobey God's command, but I do not think he was aware beforehand of all the consequences of disobedience.

It'd be interesting to know what God would have done differently if Adam had chosen to obey God's command.

Eve and her female descendants are reaping the consequences of her sin and they will continue to reap them until Jesus returns.
 
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Yes, this a conundrum. from a previous post is this quote "
. . . . when they read the Bible it is with the Holy Ghost applying the words to their hearts and minds. The Bible is the “word” of YHWH speaking to the believer as made relevant by the Holy Ghost. Reading the recorded “word” and having the Holy Ghost minister to us is an enormous spiritual and emotional experience - and it should be.

This is the primary entrance into the “word” of YHWH and is always the truth for the individual believer. This is why organizations like Wycliff just translate the Bible into native tongues and leave the rest to the Holy Ghost. One must have trust in the LORD and know the difference between our job and the job of the Holy Ghost to depend solely upon recorded scripture given to a pagan people."

I suspect believers confuse the ministry of the Holy Ghost to us with being the same as the correct interpretation of scripture. Common is the experience of having people hear from preaching something entirely different from what was preached. It is so common that we might conclude the Holy Ghost speaks so loudly in ministering to our needs that all else is obscured.

The term juvenile believer does not refer to the age but the progress in sanctification. It is appropriate for a recent believer to be a juvenile in how much change has occurred but may be inappropriate for those of a longer faith. We believers need to be taught that each child of the LORD progresses at a pace relevant to their hunger and thirst and to their circumstances and trails. However, at some point believers must begin to practice both love and humility toward the brothers and the sisters and to encourage the juveniles to do the same.

I know both mentally challenged and the very bright whose faith, trust, and love leave me without adequate explanation of how can they be so Christ like while I stumble along. I have an excuse. They must be angels in disguise.

On the other hand, I know others who are so pitifully poor in their faith they need all the help available from the congregation.

It is in part, that these enormous differences are why the divine plan of redemption had to be available through grace and not some other factor. Generally, we are the people of the LORD called out from the worldly norm but come as a stupid and ornery people in the process of being sanctified.

Jesus gave us His Church and appointed its leaders to teach us His gospel. The NT Bible is a tool of His Church.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” rsv

2 Timothy 2:2
and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. rsv​

2 Timothy 3:14-17
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Jesus did not ever command that people should go buy a Bible and then interpret it for themselves.

2 Peter 3:16
speaking of this as he (Paul) does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. rsv​
 
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the old scribe

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Jesus gave us His Church and appointed its leaders to teach us His gospel. The NT Bible is a tool of His Church.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” rsv

2 Timothy 2:2
and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. rsv​

2 Timothy 3:14-17
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Jesus did not ever command that people should go buy a Bible and then interpret it for themselves.

2 Peter 3:16
speaking of this as he (Paul) does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. rsv​

Jan001 - Ok! I will wait for you to tell me what to believe?
 
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Jan001

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Jan001 - Ok! I will wait for you to tell me what to believe?

I am not one of the present leaders of Jesus' Church and I never will be one of them. But, I do know for certain that the Scriptures do not contain everything that we should know about Jesus' Church and His gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. rsv

John 21:25
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. rsv​
 
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God will either deliver you from suffering, or if not, will give you the strength and grace, to
pass trough it and endure it.

Difficulties make you do or discover some good things which you would not do or discover
otherwise.

When you worry about the future, which you do not know, it prevents you to function and
enjoy living in the present, which you know.

We all have reasons, to be troubled, but the Word of God, gave us a greater reason, not to be
troubled.

The Holy Spirit is called a Helper! Therefore, no Christian can be helpless again!

Psalm 56:8, Psalm 112:4,6, Psalm119:50,52,92,93,107, Isaiah 61:1-3, Psalm 68:19,
2Corinthians 1:3-11, Psalm 121:1,2,3,7, Psalm 30:11, Psalm 115:3-8, Psalm 107:41, Psalm
116:6-9, Psalm 22:24, Psalm 94:13,17-19, Psalm 142:2,3, Romans 15:13, Psalm 50:15,
Psalm 54:7, Psalm 34:6,17,18,19, Psalm 69, Psalm 37:24,39, Psalm 46:1, Psalm 30:11,
31:6-10, Psalm 62,
 
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the old scribe

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I am not one of the present leaders of Jesus' Church and I never will be one of them. But, I do know for certain that the Scriptures do not contain everything that we should know about Jesus' Church and His gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. rsv

John 21:25
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. rsv​
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoting Jan 001:

Jesus gave us His Church and appointed its leaders to teach us His gospel. The NT Bible is a tool of His Church.

I am not one of the present leaders of Jesus' Church and I never will be one of them. But, I do know for certain that the Scriptures do not contain everything that we should know about Jesus' Church and His gospel.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply: The leaders of Jesus’ Church teach you because the scriptures do not contain everything that we should know about Jesus' Church and His gospel. Accordingly, I have boxed up my Bibles for the used book store. You may tell me what the leaders teach you since I cannot learn everything needed from the Bible and by not knowing everything I most certainly would go astray.
 
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Hank77

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Also friend, I think you could look into supplements for your wife. Even something as simple as Magnesium can make a noticeable difference. Get her to look into things that are good for relaxation or mood. Magnesium helps with that.
@Quid est Veritas?
She is pregnant and has had miscarriages. She should not take anything besides her regular pregnant mom vitamins without talking to her doctor first.
 
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Jan001

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoting Jan 001:

Jesus gave us His Church and appointed its leaders to teach us His gospel. The NT Bible is a tool of His Church.

I am not one of the present leaders of Jesus' Church and I never will be one of them. But, I do know for certain that the Scriptures do not contain everything that we should know about Jesus' Church and His gospel.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply: The leaders of Jesus’ Church teach you because the scriptures do not contain everything that we should know about Jesus' Church and His gospel. Accordingly, I have boxed up my Bibles for the used book store. You may tell me what the leaders teach you since I cannot learn everything needed from the Bible and by not knowing everything I most certainly would go astray.

You'd be better off spiritually if you got all of them back out of the box in order to study them more carefully, after asking for the Holy Spirit's guidance, to discern what He wants you to learn and believe. :)

A person can, with the Holy Spirit's help, figure out from reading the Bible that he needs to be a member of Jesus' Church because this is God's will for him.
Then he must ascertain with the Holy Spirit's help which one of the many thousands of churches is Jesus' one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. When and if he discovers this, he must join this Church if he desires to inherit eternal life.

I don't make Jesus' laws, Jesus made His laws 2000 years ago. I strive to follow His laws to the best of my ability. Hebrews 4:11

Luke 10:16
He who hears you (my Church leaders) hears me, and he who rejects you (my Church leaders) rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” rsv

Luke 13:23-27
And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ rsv​
 
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