Will there be a second chance for salvation after the Rapture?

jgr said:

Speaking of ducking and dodging...I've just produced incontrovertible evidence that a translation pre-dating yours by a century was apostasia/falling away. That makes this translation the new original unless you can produce an earlier one. For your convenience, here it is again:


No matter the rhetoric as to what you use to field an argument against the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, the Scriptures provide the bottom line, as recorded below:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar



Jerome was not born until 347 AD. He wrote the Vulgate from 382-405 AD. But nearly a century earlier, Victorinus of Pettau, a Christian ecclesiastical writer, writing in the early post-apostolic period from 270-310 AD before the emergence of the Romanist papacy, produced his Commentary on the Apocalypse. In it, he quoted Paul from 2 Thess. 2:3:

Paul the apostle says: Except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin shall appear, the son of perdition; and the adversary who exalted himself above all which is called God, or which is worshipped.

This was close to 100 years before Jerome's Vulgate, and over 1000 years before the first English translation of the Bible by John Wycliffe.

The intended and correct translation of apostasia to falling away (apostasy) was thus unmistakably and early established.

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jgr said:

Speaking of ducking and dodging...I've just produced incontrovertible evidence that a translation pre-dating yours by a century was apostasia/falling away. That makes this translation the new original unless you can produce an earlier one. For your convenience, here it is again:



Jerome was not born until 347 AD. He wrote the Vulgate from 382-405 AD. But nearly a century earlier, Victorinus of Pettau, a Christian ecclesiastical writer, writing in the early post-apostolic period from 270-310 AD before the emergence of the Romanist papacy, produced his Commentary on the Apocalypse. In it, he quoted Paul from 2 Thess. 2:3:

Paul the apostle says: Except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin shall appear, the son of perdition; and the adversary who exalted himself above all which is called God, or which is worshipped.

This was close to 100 years before Jerome's Vulgate, and over 1000 years before the first English translation of the Bible by John Wycliffe.

The intended and correct translation of apostasia to falling away (apostasy) was thus unmistakably and early established.

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No matter what or who you use to field your argument against the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, the Scriptures that do, refute them, and are the bottom line as follows:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11, as well as in Mt.24; Mk.13; Lk.21 and Rev.19:14.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16-17.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, WITH His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, among other things, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

What did the Early Church Fathers believe, and how did pretrib author Grant Jeffrey pervert their writings to turn their post-trib views into pretrib?

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

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The church fathers brought the teachings of Amillennialism to the RCC, that denies the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth as well as the pre-trib rapture of the Church.


Quasar92

JLB777 said:

I'm interested in you, and what you believe, about the scriptures concerning the resurrection and rapture.


These three major things will happen, according to what Paul taught us, through his letters to the Thessalonians.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


Jesus Christ Himself destroys the antichrist, at His coming, the very same coming by which the Church is resurrected and raptured.


Again, the three major things that will take place at Him coming:

1. First, the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. Second, the Rapture.
3. Third, the destruction of the antichrist; the false messiah, the man of sin, the lawless one.

JLB

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Greetings JLB,

We're pretty much on the same page, except for my views that 1 Thess,4:16 is not meant as a resurrection. See the following as to why it isn/t:

First of all, Jesus revealed to John, the first general resurrection is the one of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4/5. With the second one at the Great White Throne judgment, 1,000 years later, in Rev.20:11-15. So the "rising first," of the dead in Christ cannot mean it is a resurrection.

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and those who died in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to verse 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6 and 11-15. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.

There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, which does not take place until seven years later. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, we will go to be with our Father in heaven, as Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Seven years after that, we will all return with Christ, from heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as recorded in Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and in Jude 14.


Quasar92

jgr said:

The following effectively resolve the apostasia/dicessio issue:

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

The issue is unquestionably attributable to the translation from Greek to Latin. In Greek, apostasia means apostasy and nothing else. When Jerome performed the translation to Latin, he chose discessio as the equivalent. Was there any word other than discessio that he could have chosen to convey the desired meaning? If there were, undoubtedly he would have done so. It is unfortunate that discessio's multiple shades of meaning have resulted in the ensuing confusion. However, in doing what should be done, which is to return to, or as close as possible to, the original text, we return to the Greek original, where we find no ambiguity.

Case closed.

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FYI, you will NEVER close your case in any so called translations without providjng sources you are posting about. The translator of the Bible were not amateurs and I firmly believe there is very little of it any of us can improve on. As such, there isn't a thing you have contributed in the above post to abrogate a single stitch of post #104.


Quasar92

jgr said:

You know, you're a perfect representation of the double amputee (no disrespect intended) who couldn't win his argument because he didn't have a leg to stand on.

If this was a court of law, you'd be an inmate by now on the basis of the mountain of accumulated evidence.

Notwithstanding all that,
Blessings, sincerely.

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Not much difference to your attack on me as one who has no legs to begin with, is there! You have the mistaken idea your argument using unsupported interpretation is going to refute the Scriptural teachings for the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, you have failed to field anything at all to alter the Scriptures that prove otherwise, as recorded below:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

jgr said:

Apologies if I've offended, but I was unaware, and I did prequalify the remark.

You've seem to have lost sight of the fact that we (at least I) have been focused exclusively on the single word in 2 Thess. 2:3. That is now conclusively shown to be apostasy. All other scripture passages and verses are separate discussions.

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You have lost sight of the voluminous proof I have provided you that prove your attempt to sweep the pre-trib rapture of the Church under the carpet with only ONE verse, is nothing short of ridiculous. Trying to make the DEPARTURE of the Church into APOSTASY in th 2 Thess.2:1-8 passage is utter nonsense, as I showed you previously, that you ignore:

>>>2 Thess.2:1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters," A DIRECT REFERENCE TO 1 Thess.4:17:

1 Thess.4:17 "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [RAPTURED] together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words." [Emphasis and parenthesis mine]

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE AN APOSTASY OR A FALLING AWAY! NO! IT DOES NOT!<<<

Other posts with proofs for the pre-trib rapture of the Church you are unable to field any argument denying them are in 76; 77; 78 and 79.

Until you begin addressing them, you will not have any further reply from me on your pointless argument.


Quasar92

BABerean2 said:

Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.　


"The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out."


Can you explain to us why you left Matthew 24:29-30 out of your "The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Chuch Beginning with Mt.24:31" found above ?

Are you going to tell us Matthew 24:29-30 is not related to Matthew 24:31?

.

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In the furure, when you quote proprietary remarks I post, provide proper acknowledgement that it is mine.

Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because th Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, as recorded in Jn.7:38, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, as recorded in Acts 1:9 and in 2:1-3. As such there is no mention of a Church rapture until He reveals it to His disciples in Jn.14:1-4 and 28. There is an alluding to it in Mt.24:31 and in Lk.21:36 as well.

In Mt.24:30, you referred to above, is Jesus second coming to the earth, WITHHIS CHURCH, as recorded in Rev.19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5.


Quasar92

jgr said:

And the RCC gave futurism to dispensationalism, without which it would not exist.

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As I told you before, the RCC teaches Amillennialism, for more than 1,600 years now, that deny the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth, as well as the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Both of which are taught directly from the Bible. One more time...you nave no argument on this either!


Quasar92