A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism.

YouAreAwesome

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Excellent post. A few thoughts.

Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of our Sanctification.

Sanctification can be biblically defined "set apart". We are set apart from sin and placed into the Spirit. We are immediately "sinless" and "perfect" at the moment we are saved. If sinless perfectionism is a goal, then we achieved it already. It is the state of being "in Christ", literally one with Him in the Spirit. The circumcision of our hearts has removed the sinful inclination. Following this it is our natural inclination to desire God. From this place the change that occurs in us is not from sinner to sinless. The change is the renewing of the mind; learning who we really are in Christ, that old things have already passed away, and all things have been made new. We learn about how our true self is perfectly loving and awesome, not sinful.

denied amongst Eternal Security Proponents

Eternal Security and "sinless perfection" can go hand in hand. I am not a OSAS proponent, but I'm not a sin and lose salvation proponent either (as we've discussed in earlier threads). Nevertheless sinless living is normal whether salvation is final or conditional.

those who do not believe that “Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From God

Sin does not remove our salvation, nor does it separate us from God. God's love is greater than anything that tries to separate us from Him. Sin brings guilt and condemnation on our side (not from God) and it leads to rejecting God. But God is eternally loving and salvific. He does not want any to perish, but that all would come to know Him. For example, you gave the example of adultery leading to divorce. Adultery is not divorce itself. Adultery gives grounds for divorce. God never divorces us, sin leads us to divorce Him if we don't repent of it. It becomes like a weight on our shoulders and in our spirit, heavy and depressing. We then have two options, remove the guilt through repentance (realising we are forgiven and that God loves us, and turning from the sin), or we remove it by rejecting the Holy Spirit. Better is to never sin!
 
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First, grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ. I am praying for nothing but good things for you in Christ Jesus.

Second, the word "Law" mentioned in Galatians 3:10 is in reference to the Law of Moses or the 613 Old Testament Commands. It is not talking about the New Testament Commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

How so? The context tells us it is talking about the Law of Moses.

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.” (Galatians 3:16-17).

“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” (Galatians 3:24-25).

For if you believe you are not under any kind of Law, then you must also believe you are not under the following Law or Command, too.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment"
(1 John 3:23).

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Jason, I specifically told you I didn't want to get into a debate with you over sinless perfectionism. You did not respect my wishes and created this post to bring me over here. These are the marks of every practitioner of sinless perfectionism that I have met on this forum: pushy and argumentative. It doesn't lend a lot of credence to your position..

Well, if you didn't want to talk about it, then you shouldn't have posted 1 John 2:1 in return. I took that as meaning you wanted to discuss or to debate the topic. If you didn't want to discuss it, then you shouldn't have provided any verses to debate with me on the topic, my friend.

Anyways, I hope there are no hard feelings.
it was not my intention to be pushy with you.
If you do not want to discuss Sinless Perfectionism, then that is your choice.
But the 50 points I brought up in Scripture are there for you to examine in the OP (Original Post) whenever you change your mind.

May God's love shine upon you.
And may His peace fill you.


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thesunisout

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Well, if you didn't want to talk about it, then you shouldn't have posted 1 John 2:1 in return. I took that as meaning you wanted to discuss or to debate the topic. If you didn't want to discuss it, then you shouldn't have provided any verses to debate with me on the topic, my friend.

Anyways, I hope there are no hard feelings.
it was not my intention to be pushy with you.
If you do not want to discuss Sinless Perfectionism, then that is your choice.
But the 50 points I brought up in Scripture are there for you to examine in the OP (Original Post) whenever you change your mind.

May God's love shine upon you.
And may His peace fill you.


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I didn't quote 1 John 2:1 to debate sinless perfectionist talking points. I wasn't sure if that was even what you were talking about. I definitely don't have any animosity towards you. Take care
 
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Excellent post.

Thank you for being nice.

YouAreAwesome said:
Sanctification can be biblically defined "set apart". We are set apart from sin and placed into the Spirit. We are immediately "sinless" and "perfect" at the moment we are saved. If sinless perfectionism is a goal, then we achieved it already. It is the state of being "in Christ", literally one with Him in the Spirit. The circumcision of our hearts has removed the sinful inclination. Following this it is our natural inclination to desire God. From this place the change that occurs in us is not from sinner to sinless. The change is the renewing of the mind; learning who we really are in Christ, that old things have already passed away, and all things have been made new. We learn about how our true self is perfectly loving and awesome, not sinful.

We are only made perfect by the power of Christ. I agree.
But we disagree on how we get there or on the timing.
While a believer can reach a state of Sinless Perfection rather quickly, many believers have not achieved this perfection overnight. Even Paul himself said he had not yet attained perfection in his letter to the Philippians.

"I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me." (Philippians 3:12 NLT).​

Also, James says, by works is faith made perfect.

For he says, “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).​

We are also told to perfect holiness in the fear of GOD.

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).​

Paul says we must become like a perfect man growing until we become like Christ and his perfection.

For he says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).​

As for saying our true self is loving and awesome (Which is a part of the false motivational self help speech of today):

Well, Jesus says there is none good but GOD (Matthew 19:17).

For if any man thinks himself to be something when he is nothing he deceives himself (Galatians 6:3).

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (Romans 12:3).

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God" (2 Corinthians 3:5).

"...Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits." (Romans 12:16).

YouAreAwesome said:
Eternal Security and "sinless perfection" can go hand in hand.

But you don't believe in Eternal Security. So why do you say that Eternal Security goes hand in hand with Sinless Perfectionism?

YouAreAwesome said:
I am not a OSAS proponent, but I'm not a sin and lose salvation proponent either (as we've discussed in earlier threads).

The only way you can't believe in Eternal Security and yet also believe that "Sin Does Not Separate A Believer From GOD" is if you are a:

#1. Non-OSAS/SIn Cannot Separate You From GOD Proponent who:
(a) Believes that: A Person Can Walk Away From God of Their Own Free Will.

However, the problem with the belief that says "Sin Cannot Separate a Believer from GOD" is that it condones sin (Which is something GOD can never agree with because He is holy and righteous). Repentance from having honestly slipped up into sin is different because one is not seeking to do evil against GOD with the thinking they are in His good graces. A person can make an honest mistake and repent and be saved. But how is there salvation for those who think they can willing do evil ahead of time? Wouldn't telling people about the belief that says, "Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From GOD" lead them to think that they have a license to sin?

That is why I currently believe your belief here (based off the information you have given me) is no different than the immorality that is condoned within the two popular versions of Eternal Security. Anyways, if you or anyone else is interested: Here are the three major different versions of Eternal Security.

#1. Classic OSAS (Major Immorality Version)
There is the version of Eternal Security that says you can sin as much as you like (like hating, committing sexual immorality, lying, etc.) and still be saved. In a nutshell, it is essentially telling people that they have a license to sin.

#2. Mid Range OSAS (Lesser Immorality Version)
This version of Eternal Security is a little harder to identify. They say that a believer must live a holy life generally to be characterized as a true believer, but yet, they also believe that a believer dying in one or two unrepentant sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc. does not necessarily mean that a person is not saved. This is still a problem because it condones the idea that a person can do horrible evil on some level with GOD still rewarding them with Heaven despite their evil.

#3. OSAS Lite (Non Immorality Version)
This is the version of Eternal Security that says that if you are not living a holy life, then you were never born again to begin with. While this version of Eternal Security is not as popular, it is still flawed because we can have an assurance of our salvation and that we are born again if we repent of our sins to the LORD. But yet, this teaching denies that a believer can fall away from the faith or that they can choose of their own free will to leave GOD. However, this is the only version of Eternal Security or wrong view on salvation whereby I can call them my true brother (because they do not make excuses for condoning immorality by saying that sin cannot separate you from GOD). They believe a believer will repent and walk righteously.

YouAreAwesome said:
Nevertheless sinless living is normal whether salvation is final or conditional.

On this statement we agree.
it is a normal thing for believers to stop sinning if Jesus lives within them.
However, salvation is conditional.

YouAreAwesome said:
Sin does not remove our salvation, nor does it separate us from God. God's love is greater than anything that tries to separate us from Him.

Sin is separation from God:

Genesis 2:17

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4


Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24


And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15


And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18


Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28
CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17
ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29


The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20
KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

Proverbs 28:9


He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9
GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13
KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18
NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12


Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9
HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13


Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18


If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.

Psalm 34:15-16


The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Matthew 5:28-30

28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Matthew 6:15

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

Matthew 12:36-37

36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Matthew 12:41

"The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; ..."

Jonah 3:6-10

6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Luke 13:3

I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.

John 3:20

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

1 John 1:6-7

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 John 2:4

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Important Note: Jesus is the Truth (See John 14:6, and Jesus is the source of a person's eternal life. See 1 John 5:12).

1 John 3:15

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Romans 11:22

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off."

Galatians 5:19-21

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Hebrews 10:26

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

Hebrews 12:14

"Follow ... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord"

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

YouAreAwesome said:
Sin brings guilt and condemnation on our side (not from God) and it leads to rejecting God. But God is eternally loving and salvific.

Yet, a person can still walk away from GOD, right?

YouAreAwesome said:
He does not want any to perish, but that all would come to know Him.

Well, you left the most important part out. Repentance.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

YouAreAwesome said:
For example, you gave the example of adultery leading to divorce. Adultery is not divorce itself. Adultery gives grounds for divorce. God never divorces us, sin leads us to divorce Him if we don't repent of it. It becomes like a weight on our shoulders and in our spirit, heavy and depressing. We then have two options, remove the guilt through repentance (realising we are forgiven and that God loves us, and turning from the sin), or we remove it by rejecting the Holy Spirit. Better is to never sin!

Actually, Jesus said that the sin of adultery within one's heart can lead to being cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

Again, it is no different when a husband who is disloyal with his wife and just pays her lip service that he is sorry (but he is not changing). If the husband continues to cheat (no matter what sorrowful words he says to her), she is going to divorce or leave him. Would not GOD have to agree with a believer's sin or evil in order for a "Sin and Still Be Saved" Type belief to work? If not, then please explain.


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I didn't quote 1 John 2:1 to debate sinless perfectionist talking points. I wasn't sure if that was even what you were talking about. I definitely don't have any animosity towards you. Take care

It's all good. I have no ill will towards you or anyone else, either.
For I am wishing nothing but good things to you in the LORD.

But to help you understand where I am coming from:
Well, I see the Word of God as spiritual bread. If you dangle spiritual bread or food in front of me, I am going to eat it because I am always hungry for the Word of God and in declaring it's truth properly.

I think this would apply for most Christians, too.
If they see you provide a verse to defend your position, they will take that as a means that you want to debate or discuss the topic.

Just a friendly reminder for next time, my friend.

Peace be unto you in the LORD.
And please be well.



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YouAreAwesome

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I'll start with just one verse, it will take too long to answer every verse.

"I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me." (Philippians 3:12 NLT).

Paul believes he has the right to be more confident in his flesh than anyone, he writes "as for righteousness based on the law, faultless" (Phillipians 3:6). Yet only a few verses later he claims he hasn't attained perfection. Why? The perfection Paul is talking of is not perfection by the law or perfection by faith; both of which he claims he already has attained.

1. perfect righteousness according the law (verse 6).
2. true righteousness by faith "not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith".

So Paul is both righteous according to the law and righteous according to faith but still not perfect. I believe this is because he is still in a body of flesh that will die, and he still needs to be resurrected (perfected).

Reading the scripture in context:

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal
, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

As for saying our true self is loving and awesome (Which is a part of the false motivational self help speech of today):

I refer to the book "Supernatural ways of Royalty" (Kris Valatton).

Yet, a person can still walk away from GOD, right?

Yes. This is what I meant when I wrote "leads to rejecting God".

Well, you left the most important part out. Repentance.

I believe in repentance. Be careful not to look for fault for the sake of finding fault. One asks "How can I be saved"? Another answers "Believe in Jesus!". But another rebukes him "No, Believe in Jesus and be baptized!". Still another rebukes the second, "No! Repent, believe in Jesus and be baptized". Was the first man correct?

Would not GOD have to agree with a believer's sin or evil in order for a "Sin and Still Be Saved" Type belief to work? If not, then please explain.

No. My daughter is my daughter whatever she chooses to do. I may not agree with her behavior, I often don't and have to correct her, but our relationship remains solid irrespective. Relationship is not based on behaviour if there is true love. Consistent bad behaviour strains the relationship for sure, but it doesn't end the relationship. God can disagree with our sin, while keeping a firm connection with our heart. Because salvation can not be earned by good behaviour, I don't see how it can be lost by bad behaviour - except of course, the behaviour of outright rejecting Him.

This is why I say sin doesn't separate us from God, Romans 8:39.
 
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Paul believes he has the right to be more confident in his flesh than anyone, he writes "as for righteousness based on the law, faultless" (Phillipians 3:6). Yet only a few verses later he claims he hasn't attained perfection. Why? The perfection Paul is talking of is not perfection by the law or perfection by faith; both of which he claims he already has attained.

1. perfect righteousness according the law (verse 6).
2. true righteousness by faith "not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith".

So Paul is both righteous according to the law and righteous according to faith but still not perfect. I believe this is because he is still in a body of flesh that will die, and he still needs to be resurrected (perfected).

Reading the scripture in context:

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal
, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus
.

So you are now saying that a person can only be perfect when they are resurrected? Or do you think that just Paul was saying this for himself alone?

YouAreAwesome said:
I refer to the book "Supernatural ways of Royalty" (Kris Valatton).

Not interested in what men write. I am in interested in what Scripture has to say. The verses I provided to you before are in conflict with this book you are recommending that appears to back up your previous words.

YouAreAwesome said:
I believe in repentance.

Every Christian has their own definition of what repentance means.
But they are not all the same definitions.
Jesus defines repentance for us in Matthew 12:41 by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10. The King of the Ninevites tell his people to not only cry out to GOD but to also forsake their evil ways. GOD then turns from His wrath or Judgment when he see the people turn from their wickedness. This is the Biblical definition of repentance in the Bible that you are in disagreement with.

YouAreAwesome said:
Be careful not to look for fault for the sake of finding fault. One asks "How can I be saved"? Another answers "Believe in Jesus!". But another rebukes him "No, Believe in Jesus and be baptized!". Still another rebukes the second, "No! Repent, believe in Jesus and be baptized". Was the first man correct?

The Bible says that: "Not being baptism" is not a salvation issue (See 1 Peter 3:21). But repentance is a salvation issue because Jesus says repent or perish (Luke 13:3).

YouAreAwesome said:
No. My daughter is my daughter whatever she chooses to do. I may not agree with her behavior, I often don't and have to correct her, but our relationship remains solid irrespective. Relationship is not based on behaviour if there is true love. Consistent bad behaviour strains the relationship for sure, but it doesn't end the relationship. God can disagree with our sin, while keeping a firm connection with our heart. Because salvation can not be earned by good behaviour, I don't see how it can be lost by bad behaviour - except of course, the behaviour of outright rejecting Him.

This does not hold up either Biblically or by way of a real world example (parable - like the ones Jesus made). How so?

Well, take for example if you had a child who ended up being like a Hitler but yet he found a way to destroy half of the planet and he desired to kill you and the rest of your family for not joining him in his murderous crusade. Would you still want to call him your son whereby you would invite him to come over your house to celebrate family events together even if it meant that he would kill you and your family? What if he just killed your entire family? What if you were horribly wounded by his hand? What if you escaped for a short time and he was looking to kill you? Would you really think of him as the son you raised still or as some murderous psychopath?

What about drugs or sexual immorality? What if your son tried to force you and your family into drugs and sexual immorality and yet your son still claimed to love you? What if your son considered these things as good things for your life?

Now you may just classify this as a behavior that is outright rejecting the one you love, but you have to realize that sin is offensive to a perfectly just, holy, and righteous GOD. When you sin, you actually sin against GOD and not just yourself or others alone. Sin is a form of rejection of the things of GOD. A person is in a way rejecting GOD when they sin. It does not matter if they are are committing the sin of murder, theft, adultery, or idolatry. One is having a behavior of rejection towards GOD if they sin against Him because the LORD commands all men everywhere to repent (i.e. which is to confess and forsake your sin).

Also, in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we learn that when the son came home from his prodigal ways and desired to repent before heaven and his father, his father said that his son was once dead and he is now alive again. This was of course speaking in spiritual terms. His son was dead to him spiritually when he went prodigal in his life of sin. But when he repented and came home, he was alive again.

For the Scriptures calls the wicked as "sons of disobedience." Yet, the sons of disobedience are not saved because the wrath of GOD abides on them.

"For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:" (Colossians 3:6).

Scripture says, that the children of the Kingdom will be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 8:12). The unprofitable servant will also be cast into our darkness, as well (Matthew 22:12, Matthew 25:30).

YouAreAwesome said:
This is why I say sin doesn't separate us from God, Romans 8:39.

Romans 8:39 does not mention sin. Sin is not supposed to be a part of the good creation. God did not create sin as a part of the six day creation. There are tons of Scripture verses telling us that sin separates us from GOD. I provided a list of verses for you but you did not address even one of them.


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YouAreAwesome

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So you are now saying that a person can only be perfect when they are resurrected? Or do you think that just Paul was saying this for himself alone?

I believe Paul was saying he is perfect in behaviour, perfect in spirit, but will still die. But after he dies he will be perfected into the likeness of the risen Christ (not just in spirit or attitude or behaviour etc but in totality).

Every Christian has their own definition of what repentance means.
But they are not all the same definitions.
Jesus defines repentance for us in Matthew 12:41 by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10. The King of the Ninevites tell his people to not only cry out to GOD but to also forsake their evil ways. GOD then turns from His wrath or Judgment when he see the people turn from their wickedness. This is the Biblical definition of repentance in the Bible that you are in disagreement with.

How am I in disagreement? These examples fall within the repentance I understand. Repentance means to change the way you think and to turn in a new direction. Both of your examples fit within this definition. I'm not sure what your point is?

Would you still want to call him your son whereby you would invite him to come over your house to celebrate family events together even if it meant that he would kill you and your family?

My son would always be my son; it would never be me disowning him for the relationship to end, he would have to end it. On the other hand, this does not mean I would invite him over to my house if he was who you have described him to be.

What about drugs or sexual immorality? What if your son tried to force you and your family into drugs and sexual immorality and yet your son still claimed to love you? What if your son considered these things as good things for your life?

He would still be my son. I would ask him to refrain from these things and to not promote them in my house. However He would still be welcome in my house.

When you sin, you actually sin against GOD and not just yourself or others alone. Sin is a form of rejection of the things of GOD. A person is in a way rejecting GOD when they sin.

I agree, I just don't believe it's a total rejection that separates us from Him completely.

His son was dead to him spiritually when he went prodigal in his life of sin. But when he repented and came home, he was alive again.

Yes, the son rejected the father. The father forgave the son.

the sons of disobedience are not saved because the wrath of GOD abides on them.

The prodigal represents the Gentiles. The sons of disobedience with the wrath of God on them were the Jews of Jesus' day. You have compared two different people groups as one. The wrath of God was on the Jews because of law.

There are tons of Scripture verses telling us that sin separates us from GOD. I provided a list of verses for you but you did not address even one of them.

I will happily address one or two verses. Any more takes too long as I hope you understand.
 
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I believe Paul was saying he is perfect in behaviour, perfect in spirit, but will still die. But after he dies he will be perfected into the likeness of the risen Christ (not just in spirit or attitude or behaviour etc but in totality).

Well, I hope your day of celebrating Christ as being our greatest gift of all (John 3:16) (2 Corinthians 9:15) was great yesterday (Regardless if it was the day he was born or not). May you come to know Him and His Word more and more each day; And may His love shine upon you greatly today, too.

Anyways, to get down to business, I believe you are confused on Philippians 3 because Paul is going back and forth in his conversation in the beginning of the chapter.

In Philippians 3,

In verses 1-3 Paul is talking in the present tense of himself as a Christian:

1. Verses 1-3,
(a) In verse 1, Paul is saying how his writing to the Philippians are not a burden to him; On the contrary Paul says he writes to them (i.e. the Philippians) so that they may rejoice in Jesus and so that they may safeguard their own souls within the faith (Philippians 3:1).

(b) In verse 2, Paul first begins to say, "beware of evil workers." Okay. Stop right here. This pretty much refutes your belief system that says that you can "Sin with the Intention of Still Being Saved." For in your belief it teaches that "Sin is Not Separation From GOD." Yet, Paul says in Philippians 3:2, to "beware of evil workers." How can you beware of evil workers if the people you teach are evil workers because you told them that they can sin and still be saved? Evil is sin. Remember, Jesus judged the Pharisees for being hypocrites with God's laws. They didn't keep it. Hence, why Paul here is saying to beware of evil workers.

(c) In verse 3, Paul says he is the spiritual circumcision who worships God in the spirit, rejoices in Jesus, and has no confidence in the power of his own might alone (i.e. confidence in the flesh) (Philippians 3:3). Why? Because he trusts in the LORD's power to work thru him.

1 Corinthians 15:10 says,
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Did you catch that? Paul says the reason why he labored more than all of his brethren because it was the grace of GOD (i.e. Jesus) which was within him. For remember, in John 15:5, Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.​

In verses 4-6 Paul is talking about his past experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian:

2. Verses 4-6,
(a) verse 4 says, Paul says that if someone were to boast in the confidence in the flesh, he (Paul) has more reason to boast then anyone else can (Philippians 3:4).

(b) verse 5, Paul begins to give us the reason why he can boast in the confidence of the flesh (Which runs contrary to the point he made in verse 3 as a Christian) (Philippians 3:5). Paul is saying that as a part of his past he was circumcised, he is from the Tribe of Benjamin, he is a Hebrew of Hebrews, and in regards to the Law he was a Pharisee.

(c) verse 6, Paul says he persecuted the church of God (as a part of his zeal). Then Paul says he is blameless in touching of the law. (Philippians 3:6) But is this the Law of God or the Law of the Pharisees? Remember, the laws of the pharisees sometimes went against the Laws of God according to Jesus. Also, Paul says that he persecuted the church of God right before he says he kept the Law blamelessly. So obviously this was during the time when he was a Pharisee. For Paul was not a Christian and persecuting the church. Paul only persecuted the church when he was a Pharisee.

This could not be any clearer of a point, especially if we were to read verse 7. For it says,

"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ" (Philippians 3:7).

What things did Paul consider valueable?
It was his keeping of the laws of the Pharisees and being of the stock of Israel. But now he counts these things as loss because it is not by being a physical descendant of Israel in blood that mattered or in following the Pharisee laws that mattered but it was about being in Jesus Christ.

Paul says that he seeked to be in the likeness of Christ's sufferings, death, and in knowing what it is like to have the power of His resurrection. Paul is saying he has not acheived THESE three things yet. He has not perfectly conformed to Christ yet. But yes, a person can be perfect. Paul says so in verse 15. "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, ..." (Philippians 3:15). It is very possible Paul did become perfect. But Philippians 3 does not say it, though.

YouAreAwesome said:
How am I in disagreement? These examples fall within the repentance I understand. Repentance means to change the way you think and to turn in a new direction. Both of your examples fit within this definition. I'm not sure what your point is?

You don't believe in repentance because according to your belief, it teaches that a person can still be saved without repentance. Meaning, you believe sin does not separate a believer from GOD and Biblical repentance teaches that we are to forsake our sins as a part of confessing them. One cannot abide in sin and say they are forsaking them. Sure, can a person honestly struggle with sin? Yes. But they seek the Lord's help to overcome it and they will not be a slave to sin. Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you.

YouAreAwesome said:
My son would always be my son; it would never be me disowning him for the relationship to end, he would have to end it. On the other hand, this does not mean I would invite him over to my house if he was who you have described him to be. He would still be my son. I would ask him to refrain from these things and to not promote them in my house. However He would still be welcome in my house.

Ah, and here is the flaw in your belief. See, if you don't want to have your son bringing those sins into your house, then what makes you think GOD will bring a believer's sins into His house or kingdom? The short answer is that He wouldn't allow it. GOD does not force save atheists into God's Kingdom because they sin by breaking the Command in 1 John 3:23 (cf. John 16:8-9). The same would hold true of GOD in regards to believers who justify a sin and still be saved gospel. GOD will not force save believers who sin against Him. For Jesus said, "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27). This was in context to verse 23, where Jesus tells certain self professing believers to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin.

YouAreAwesome said:
I agree, I just don't believe it's a total rejection that separates us from Him completely.

The very character or nature of GOD is holiness. So if one rejects God's holiness (by telling others that they can sin and still be saved) than they are rejecting GOD on the basis of rejecting His holiness. For you cannot separate holiness from GOD. It is an important part of GOD.

YouAreAwesome said:
Yes, the son rejected the father. The father forgave the son.

If you will re-read the Parable of the Prodigal Son, you will find nothing about how the Prodigal Son rejecting his father. He merely took his portion of money that was his and he left to go live a life of sin. Luke 15:18 states the Prodigal Son as saying that he sinned against his father and that he sinned against Heaven. There is no mention of a rejection of his father here but it is about sin instead. He sinned against his father by leaving so as to live a sinful life (Which his father would not allow him to do in his own home).

YouAreAwesome said:
The prodigal represents the Gentiles. The sons of disobedience with the wrath of God on them were the Jews of Jesus' day. You have compared two different people groups as one. The wrath of God was on the Jews because of law.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son has a two fold message. The first message tells us that the older brother is a representation of the Jews and the Prodigal Son is a picture of the Gentiles coming back to GOD. The second message is a representation of every person's life. All babies are saved. But when they grew up, they went prodigal into a life of sin. Their returning home to the Father thru Jesus Christ is like the story of the Prodigal Son. This here proves that sin is indeed separation from GOD. For you were saved as a baby because of Jesus's sacrifice. But when you grew up into a life of sin, you became separated from GOD again. Sin separated you from GOD because of your life of sin. Also, again, the Parable of the Prodigal Son says to his son that he was dead and he is alive again two times. This was not because of a rejection of the father that you presume, but it was because of sin. Re-read the Parable again.

YouAreAwesome said:
I will happily address one or two verses. Any more takes too long as I hope you understand.

Romans 5:12 says sin and death came by one man (Adam). If man can change his status of death from sin in Adam, then logic dictates that one can change their status of life while in Christ. Adam sinned, which broke fellowship with GOD. For GOD told Adam, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17). Meaning, Adam died spiritually and was cut off from GOD by his sin. In fact, the devil was pushing the lie to Eve that they would not die if they ate of the tree. For the devil said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die." This is the same lie that is being pushed today. You will not die if you break God's Commands.

Then there is Isaiah 59:2. It clearly states that one's iniquities (sins) is a separation between a person and GOD.

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).


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YouAreAwesome

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Cheers and Merry Christmas to you to :) Hope you also enjoyed the day.

How can you beware of evil workers if the people you teach are evil workers because you told them that they can sin and still be saved?

I would think evil workers are not people who sin every now and then, but those Judaisers who teach false doctrine and encourage others to do so such as is described in 2 Corinthians 11:13 and is contrasted by Phillipians 3:3 "We are the circumcision" pointing to the false circumcision as the evil workers. This is in stark contrast to your claim that he is talking of Christians who believe they can "Sin with the Intention of Still Being Saved." He is not talking about this at all.

Did you catch that? Paul says the reason why he labored more than all of his brethren because it was the grace of GOD (i.e. Jesus) which was within him.

Please remember, I do not hold the OSAS definition of grace. I will write this to you for the third time, I believe grace is the power of God and NOT unmerited favour. I agree it is Jesus within Him by the Holy Spirit; His Power from on high. Lock this in please.

In verses 4-6 Paul is talking about his past experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian

I agree.

You don't believe in repentance because according to your belief, it teaches that a person can still be saved without repentance.

These are not in opposition. When my wife and I disagree, sometimes one might say something hurtful to the other hastily (reasonably often in the early days of our marriage, not so often now). Apologies and repentance would sometimes not take place for a few hours. During this time, are we divorced? If someone came to the door and asked us to lunch, would we say no because we are not relationship anymore? I think you are too flippant to remove the Spirit, i.e. the Spiritual connection between God and us through Jesus by the Spirit; this union is not dependent on our actions or attitudes; it is an established spiritual reality that is difficult to break; hence whey Paul explains that he is convinced "neither height nor depth" etc. can separate us from the love of God. Repentance is not only the apology, but the turning from that way of thinking so that sin or problems will not continue.

Ah, and here is the flaw in your belief. See, if you don't want to have your son bringing those sins into your house, then what makes you think GOD will bring a believer's sins into His house or kingdom? The short answer is that He wouldn't allow it. GOD does not force save atheists into God's Kingdom because they sin by breaking the Command

You seem to be saying that sinners can't be saved, but I don't know that you believe that. Sinners need salvation before they can be sinless. God removes their sinful inclination and gives them a new nature which includes the kingdom within them. They are no longer his servants, but His own children. If they sin, they are not disowned and abandoned because they have an advocate, AN ANCHOR FOR THE SOUL (Hebrews 6:19).

if one rejects God's holiness (by telling others that they can sin and still be saved) than they are rejecting GOD on the basis of rejecting His holiness.

I disagree the most with this teaching. Salvation is not about sinning or not sinning, but about relationship with God through Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Behaviour is not the key component, a humble heart is. This teaching is pure, is biblical, and you say it means I have "rejected God"! I believe you have accepted God despite our doctrinal difference; yet you say I am not a Christian? That's harsh bro. And judgmental. He is holy, He has given me Power to live holy, but my salvation does not rely on it. That's not the firm foundation of Christ described throughout the whole New Testament.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son has a two fold message. The first message tells us that the older brother is a representation of the Jews and the Prodigal Son is a picture of the Gentiles coming back to GOD. The second message is a representation of every person's life. All babies are saved. But when they grew up, they went prodigal into a life of sin. Their returning home to the Father thru Jesus Christ is like the story of the Prodigal Son. This here proves that sin is indeed separation from GOD. For you were saved as a baby because of Jesus's sacrifice. But when you grew up into a life of sin, you became separated from GOD again. Sin separated you from GOD because of your life of sin. Also, again, the Parable of the Prodigal Son says to his son that he was dead and he is alive again two times. This was not because of a rejection of the father that you presume, but it was because of sin.

But I agree with you in every point! I agree! The only difference is that I believe the son leaving the fathers house was a deliberate decision; he made a deliberate choice to take his inheritance and squander it. It wasn't about sin at this stage, but a decision to leave his fathers house.

I should also make note that sin does separate us from God when we are in the first Adam; as you say, babies. But after we are joined to the second Adam, Jesus, we became one with Him and can not be flippantly separated; it is a BIG DEAL to remove our connection with Him; the same as it is a BIG DEAL to be saved.

then logic dictates that one can change their status of life while in Christ.

But we are in a covenant with God in Christ; we were not in a covenant in the first Adam.

Then there is Isaiah 59:2. It clearly states that one's iniquities (sins) is a separation between a person and GOD.

I do not see this as describing "a person" but a "nation". The Jews who called for Christ's death. Isaiah is prophesying of Jesus' crucifixion and in the early verses of of Isaiah 59 he is describing the Jews. They have rejected God. Note that God has not rejected them, but they have rejected God, "your sins have hidden His face". Sin moves a person towards total rejection of God. But isolated sins are not that rejection. It is in complete contradiction to the security of our salvation being in Jesus and not ourselves.
 
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I would think evil workers are not people who sin every now and then, but those Judaisers who teach false doctrine and encourage others to do so such as is described in 2 Corinthians 11:13 and is contrasted by Phillipians 3:3 "We are the circumcision" pointing to the false circumcision as the evil workers. This is in stark contrast to your claim that he is talking of Christians who believe they can "Sin with the Intention of Still Being Saved." He is not talking about this at all.

The Pharisees were evil workers because they did not keep God's Word. Jesus pointed out that the Pharisees repeatedly did not keep God's Word and they were hypocrites. They needed to first clean the inside of the cup before cleaning the outside.

The problem with a belief that says that "Sin Does Not Separate A Believer From God", is that it does not result with a believer who will sin on occasion. I am sorry. If a preacher tells others that sin does not separate a believer from God, then they are going to think that they have a license to sin and they will sin as much as they please (Whether that preacher wants that to happen or not).

YouAreAwesome said:
Please remember, I do not hold the OSAS definition of grace. I will write this to you for the third time, I believe grace is the power of God and NOT unmerited favour. I agree it is Jesus within Him by the Holy Spirit; His Power from on high. Lock this in please.

Regardless of whether it is OSAS or not, a belief that says, "Sin does not separate a person from God" is also a doctrine of immorality like the majority of the versions of OSAS because it teaches that a person can sin with the thinking that sin will not separate them from God. Such a belief has taken away the consequences of doing evil and as a result, it leads to a teaching of immorality.

The belief that says that a rejection of God alone (and not sin) is what causes a separation between God and man is not Biblical. For Jesus says if a person looks upon a woman in lust, their whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). There is no mention of a rejection of God alone here (with no mention of sin). In fact, in Matthew 7, we learn that there are those who believe they are in favor with Jesus because they done many wonderful works in His name. But Jesus says He never knew them and that they were to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. Again, iniquity is sin. Jesus also says that if a person does not receive his words then those very words will judge them on the last day (John 12:48). Jesus also says, "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42). How many times does the Word of God need to say it before it becomes obvious? I mean, this is unmistakable. Jesus's angels will remove all who offend (sin) and do iniquity (intense sin) in HIS KINGDOM and cast them into the furnace of fire.

Anyways, the word "grace" IS defined in the Dictionary as:

"(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favour of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings."

grace - definition of grace in English | Oxford Dictionaries

Theopedia says, "grace is umerited favor."

Grace | Theopedia

The King James Dictionary says,

"the free unmerited love and favor of God,"

GRACE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Even the Eytmology of the word says,

"Late 12c., "God's unmerited favor,"

Online Etymology Dictionary

So yes. God's grace is unmerited favor. The OSAS people got the definition on the word "grace" right, but they take the definition too far. God forgives us based on our belief in what Jesus has done for us with His death and resurrection and by our repentance towards Him. In the OSAS view on repentance, it is merely a change of mind about sin and it is not about an actual change of life. You said repentance is confessing and forsaking sin, too. But I do not see how that is possible seeing when you tell others that "Sin is not separation from God." Such a statement made towards people does not give them the thinking that they have to repent.

YouAreAwesome said:

I am glad we are on the same page on that point now.

YouAreAwesome said:
These are not in opposition. When my wife and I disagree, sometimes one might say something hurtful to the other hastily (reasonably often in the early days of our marriage, not so often now). Apologies and repentance would sometimes not take place for a few hours. During this time, are we divorced? If someone came to the door and asked us to lunch, would we say no because we are not relationship anymore? I think you are too flippant to remove the Spirit, i.e. the Spiritual connection between God and us through Jesus by the Spirit; this union is not dependent on our actions or attitudes; it is an established spiritual reality that is difficult to break;

Not all sin is the same. There are sins unto death and there are sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins not unto death are sins like: "Not being baptized" (1 Peter 3:21), "Causing divisions" (1 Corinthians 3), and "Hidden and or secret faults" (Psalms 19:12). Sins that lead unto death are any sins that lead to the Second Death (a.k.a. the Lake of Fire). Such sins would be murder, hate, adultery, coveting, theft, idolatry, etc. (See Revelation 21:8, Galatians 5:19-21, etc.).

Surely, if a husband had cheat on her wife repeatedly, something like that would not be so easily forgiveable (Especially if they were to cheat on them under the same roof).

But to GOD, His standard is even higher. Matthew 12:36-37, by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned. So yes. You can be condemned by your own words before God unless you repent.

1 John 3:15 says that if a person even hates their brother, they are a murderer, and there is no eternal life abiding within them.

YouAreAwesome said:
Paul explains that he is convinced "neither height nor depth" etc. can separate us from the love of God. Repentance is not only the apology, but the turning from that way of thinking so that sin or problems will not continue.

Two things you will not find in Romans 8:35-39 is:

1. "You" (and):
2. "Sin."

In fact, if you were to pay close attention to the passage, you will notice that ONLY external things are mentioned on that list.

YouAreAwesome said:
You seem to be saying that sinners can't be saved, but I don't know that you believe that. Sinners need salvation before they can be sinless. God removes their sinful inclination and gives them a new nature which includes the kingdom within them. They are no longer his servants, but His own children. If they sin, they are not disowned and abandoned because they have an advocate, AN ANCHOR FOR THE SOUL (Hebrews 6:19).

No. First, when the Scriptures talk about how Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners, He was talking about how He died for people who were currently living sinful at that time. This means that Jesus was paying the penalty for our sins so as to give us the free gift. This does not mean that Jesus was saving all people thru out all time. Not everyone is going to be saved.

Second, when a sinner comes to Jesus, they do not stay in a sinful state. They repent of their sins. This means that they confess and forsake their sins. If they slip up, they have God's grace, not as a license to sin, but as a means for Jesus help them to overcome their sin. Paul says, that believers used to be sinners but they are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3) (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

YouAreAwesome said:
I disagree the most with this teaching.

Then you are disagreeing with the Bible on practically almost every page. For you cannot read your Bible without shortly running into a verse or passage that states that sin will separate a person from God. You have to keep changing the plain straight forward meaning over and over and over again. For if we were talking about 2-3 verses here, that would be one thing, but the sheer number of verses that refute the idea of "Sin does not separate a person from God" is overwhelming.

YouAreAwesome said:
Salvation is not about sinning or not sinning, but about relationship with God through Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Behaviour is not the key component, a humble heart is.

You just contradicted yourself. You said behavior is not the key component but having a humble heart is. Having a humble heart involves behavior. Oh, and salvation is about not sinning.

For it is written...
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21).

"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

Jesus says, "he who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34).
Yet, Paul says, "Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Romans 6:8).
Paul also says, "For he that is dead is freed from sin."

So if we are dead in Christ, we are free from sin. It will no longer control us and we will have the assurance that we will live with Christ.

Jesus says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

What is the will of the Father or the will of God?

"For this is the will of God, your sanctification..." (1 Thessalonians 4:3 ESV).

The opposite of sanctification is sin. Jesus said not everyone who says unto Him Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the WILL of the Father. The will of the Father or God is our sanctification or holiness. One cannot be holy or in the sanctification process if they are also sinning all the time or even thinking that they can get away with sin every once in a while. God has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness (1 Thessalonians 4:7). For without holiness, no man shall see the LORD (Hebrews 12:14).

Now, you said before that salvation is not about sinning or not sinning.
But 1 John 3:8 says,
"He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

And John 3:20 says,
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved"

Also, 1 John 3:10 says,
"whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

In addition, 1 John 2:4 says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

YouAreAwesome said:
This teaching is pure, is biblical, and you say it means I have "rejected God"! I believe you have accepted God despite our doctrinal difference; yet you say I am not a Christian? That's harsh bro. And judgmental. He is holy, He has given me Power to live holy, but my salvation does not rely on it. That's not the firm foundation of Christ described throughout the whole New Testament.

Please take note that the words you replied to within my post were not words used so as to directly address your salvation personally. I said, I quote: "if one rejects God's holiness..." In other words, the word "one" is in reference to a person in general. This means, I am talking in the third person and speaking generally. I am not allowed to directly say whether you are a true Christian or not. So I have to remain silent on that issue, unless you want to talk about it by private email. However, on the forums, you will see me condemn false teaching or a wrong belief by speaking in the third person (which I like to include proof by way of Scripture and or by real world examples).

If you see a post or posts with some words where I am judging your salvation directly, please let me know, and I will remove those words from my post(s).

YouAreAwesome said:
But I agree with you in every point! I agree! The only difference is that I believe the son leaving the fathers house was a deliberate decision; he made a deliberate choice to take his inheritance and squander it. It wasn't about sin at this stage, but a decision to leave his fathers house.

Wrong. The Parable of the Prodigal Son is about sin.

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee," (Luke 15:18).

"And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son." (Luke 15:21).

Also, the Father said to the son that he was once dead and he is alive again two times (Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32). This again is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was dead spiritually because he was living a life of sin. The prodigal son admitted to his Father in verse 21 that he was not even worthy to be called his "son" (which was because of his sin). If it did not have anything to do with sin (as you suggest), then the son would not use the words "sin" in his seeking repentance towards his Father.

YouAreAwesome said:
I should also make note that sin does separate us from God when we are in the first Adam; as you say, babies.

The Lamb was slain since the foundation of the world. Jesus (and even the promise of Jesus) had reversed the condemnation of death by Adam. So when innocent babies die, they go to Heaven because of Jesus's death and resurrection. When babies grow up and become old enough to be aware of sin (whereby they are held accountable for their sin), they then fall away into spiritual death whereby they need to renewed back to GOD thru repentance. This is where the second birth comes into play. So, with the exception of those who have taken the Mark of the Beast (whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world), every person starts out saved as a baby, then they become unsaved when they grow up and live a life of sin, and they have the potential to become saved again (Back to their Father) by repenting of their sins. This proves that sin is in fact separation from God. Unless of course you believe babies are not saved (Which of course would not be Biblical).

YouAreAwesome said:
But after we are joined to the second Adam, Jesus, we became one with Him and can not be flippantly separated; it is a BIG DEAL to remove our connection with Him; the same as it is a BIG DEAL to be saved.

Yes, it is a big deal to be separated from GOD, and our first lesson on this is with Adam and Eve. They were separated spiritually from GOD and needed a Savior because of their sin. The devil tried to lie to Eve and say that they would not die spiritually, but the Scriptures did say they died the day they disobeyed God because their eyes opened and they could see that they were naked (sinful).

YouAreAwesome said:
But we are in a covenant with God in Christ; we were not in a covenant in the first Adam.

God is not a respecter of persons. God deals fairly with all people in regards to salvation thru out all points in time.

Paul uses Adam as an example in Romans and says all mankind is condemned in Adam, but now all can be made alive in Christ Jesus. So there is no change in covenants in regards to sin separating a person from God. It would be unjust of God to condemn others for a particular sin (that everyone knows about as being really wrong) and yet not condemn others for the same sin. Meaning, if God let some people get away with murder and yet allowed others to murder, it would show that GOD is unfair in regards to basic morality or justice.

YouAreAwesome said:
I do not see this as describing "a person" but a "nation". The Jews who called for Christ's death. Isaiah is prophesying of Jesus' crucifixion and in the early verses of of Isaiah 59 he is describing the Jews. They have rejected God. Note that God has not rejected them, but they have rejected God, "your sins have hidden His face". Sin moves a person towards total rejection of God. But isolated sins are not that rejection. It is in complete contradiction to the security of our salvation being in Jesus and not ourselves.

Nations are made up of individuals.

Also, the Scriptures say,

21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee [i.e. you who are Gentile].
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
(Romans 11:21-22).



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Not true. I shown forth 50 points within Scripture that makes it obvious that Sinless Perfectionism is in fact a Biblical teaching found within Scripture. Besides, can you make a real world example out of denying Sinless Perfectionism? Can a man who cheats on his wife just say he is sorry and yet cheat on her wife just on occasion the rest of his life and still be in a right relationship with her? Surely not. In other words, there has to be a level of faithfulness when it comes to basic morality with both humans and GOD. Yes, GOD can forgive us a lot, but GOD's grace is not a license to cover any amount of willful sin. Saying we will sin at some point in the future is a declaration of willful sin (Which is wrong). Sinless Perfection as the goal for our lives is the only good and right attitude to have towards sin. Otherwise, one is agreeing with evil.



Not true. The Bible also says whatseover is not of faith is sin of which you also mention below with Romans 14:23.



This verse is covered in my Common Objections List within my OP (Original Post).

I said,

#9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

For Romans 3:11 says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).​

How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).



The point of not having absolute obedience in all aspects of our walk with GOD is covered in my Common Objections List within my OP (Original Post).

I said,

#2. Objection: So are you sinless?

Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. For one, the Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Two, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

(a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

(b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also certain types of sins that do not need repentance: Like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or causing divisions within the body (1 Corinthians 3), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

(c) Unforgivable sins.

Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).​

Not true. I shown forth 50 points within Scripture that makes it obvious that Sinless Perfectionism is in fact a Biblical teaching found within Scripture. Besides, can you make a real world example out of denying Sinless Perfectionism? Can a man who cheats on his wife just say he is sorry and yet cheat on her wife just on occasion the rest of his life and still be in a right relationship with her? Surely not. In other words, there has to be a level of faithfulness when it comes to basic morality with both humans and GOD. Yes, GOD can forgive us a lot, but GOD's grace is not a license to cover any amount of willful sin. Saying we will sin at some point in the future is a declaration of willful sin (Which is wrong). Sinless Perfection as the goal for our lives is the only good and right attitude to have towards sin. Otherwise, one is agreeing with evil.



Not true. The Bible also says whatseover is not of faith is sin of which you also mention below with Romans 14:23.



This verse is covered in my Common Objections List within my OP (Original Post).

I said,

#9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

For Romans 3:11 says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).​

How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).



The point of not having absolute obedience in all aspects of our walk with GOD is covered in my Common Objections List within my OP (Original Post).

I said,

#2. Objection: So are you sinless?

Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. For one, the Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Two, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

(a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

(b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also certain types of sins that do not need repentance: Like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or causing divisions within the body (1 Corinthians 3), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

(c) Unforgivable sins.

Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).​


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Not true. I shown forth 50 points within Scripture that makes it obvious that Sinless Perfectionism is in fact a Biblical teaching found within Scripture. Besides, can you make a real world example out of denying Sinless Perfectionism? Can a man who cheats on his wife just say he is sorry and yet cheat on her wife just on occasion the rest of his life and still be in a right relationship with her? Surely not. In other words, there has to be a level of faithfulness when it comes to basic morality with both humans and GOD. Yes, GOD can forgive us a lot, but GOD's grace is not a license to cover any amount of willful sin. Saying we will sin at some point in the future is a declaration of willful sin (Which is wrong). Sinless Perfection as the goal for our lives is the only good and right attitude to have towards sin. Otherwise, one is agreeing with evil.



Not true. The Bible also says whatseover is not of faith is sin of which you also mention below with Romans 14:23.



This verse is covered in my Common Objections List within my OP (Original Post).

I said,

#9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

For Romans 3:11 says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).​

How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).



The point of not having absolute obedience in all aspects of our walk with GOD is covered in my Common Objections List within my OP (Original Post).

I said,

#2. Objection: So are you sinless?

Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. For one, the Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Two, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

(a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

(b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also certain types of sins that do not need repentance: Like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or causing divisions within the body (1 Corinthians 3), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

(c) Unforgivable sins.

Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).​


...
You show only points that fit your own narrative and twist them while ignoring others.
 
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Hi jason,

First of all let me say thank you for championing the cause of the doctrine of entire sanctification. I have read all of your posts in this thread and they are most edifying.

Now because I see that you have an understanding of the doctrine, please allow me to give an argument that contradicts it in order that I may provoke a response from you in order that you may champion the cause even more.

Two verses in particular are in the forefront of my mind.

First is Galatians 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Secondly, two verses together have a bearing on what I believe:

Galatians 6:13, For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

and, 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I believe the first verse stands on its own as a testimony that all are under sin.

The second two verses say that those who tout perfect obedience to the law do not even keep the law themselves; therefore they are sinners who sin.

What do you have to say about these things? I am interested in your viewpoint.
 
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Hi jason,

First of all let me say thank you for championing the cause of the doctrine of entire sanctification. I have read all of your posts in this thread and they are most edifying.

Now because I see that you have an understanding of the doctrine, please allow me to give an argument that contradicts it in order that I may provoke a response from you in order that you may champion the cause even more.

Two verses in particular are in the forefront of my mind.

First is Galatians 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Secondly, two verses together have a bearing on what I believe:

Galatians 6:13, For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

and, 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I believe the first verse stands on its own as a testimony that all are under sin.

The second two verses say that those who tout perfect obedience to the law do not even keep the law themselves; therefore they are sinners who sin.

What do you have to say about these things? I am interested in your viewpoint.

Paul was addressing the false Pharisee religion that was a system of works alone salvationism. The false pharisee religion continued to use the 613 Commands of the Old Testament which are no longer binding under the New Testament. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Even certain moral laws from the OT have changed. There are no more death penalties attached to breaking the Law anymore. Plus, the Law of Moses was given to Israel and not Gentiles. However, the Commands that come from Jesus and His followers (under the New Testament) are for both Jews and Gentiles. It would not make any sense for God to give us commands and say that there are after death consequences in breaking them if He also said that we are not under these Laws or commands. It would be a contradiction. Jesus said if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire. John says if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in you. Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Here John is referring to God's laws in general. Even believing in Jesus is a command or Law (1 John 3:23). So to say that we are not under Law as speaking to all law is just silly. Paul was clearly referencing the Old Law and not the New Law when He spoke against the Law. For look at Galatians 6:13 (i.e. the verse you quoted to me). Paul mentions "circumcision." Last I checked, circumcision was a part of the Old Law (Old Testament) and it is not a command under the New Testament.

As for Paul concluding all being under sin:
Paul is not talking about Sanctification or a continued walk in Christ.
Paul is talking about Initial or Ultimate Salvation in Galatians 3, Ephesians 2, and Romans 3-4.
James is talking about Sanctification in James 2.
James is referring positively about God directed works (Because Christ lives in a person).
Whereas Paul is speaking against man directed works.


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I reposted this below and then deleted the original post because I was having trouble with editing options: the computer gave an error. I circumvented it by reposting and then deleting the information out of this post and then adding this message.
 
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Jason,

I'm not sure that I'm satisfied with your answer. Could you please elaborate more on this, and also give your answer to each verse or verse group underneath a quoting of the verse or verse group?

iow, quote the verse or verses and then give your exposition on what you think they mean. This will make your response a more concise one.

The change in the law has to do with the fact that we don't look at a set of do's and don'ts anymore, but rather at a set of vices and virtues (see Galatians 5:16-24 for Paul's reinterpretation of the law). But this means that there are still things to be avoided according to the change of law. And it should be clear that within the change of law not one jot or tittle has passed away from what was already there; therefore there have only been additions to the law within the change; and it is clear that those who obey and teach to obey the least of the commandments in the OT will be called great by our Lord and Saviour on that day. Matthew 5:17-20.

Also as believers we are no longer under the law (Romans 6:14), although the law is written on our hearts and minds (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16). So it no longer has the power to condemn us from the outside, because we place our trust in the finished work of Christ and walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh. Because we walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4). Because we are not carnally-minded but spiritually-minded, we are subject in our minds to the law of the Lord (Romans 8:7).

Also my point about Galatians 6:13 was that Paul said not even those who tout a perfect walk according to the law, have such a walk. The circumcision was a group of people who said that you could keep the law perfectly and thus be saved. They believed that you could be justified by law-keeping. But even they didn't keep the law and therefore were not justified by law-keeping themselves.

Sin is the transgression of the law. And therefore if someone did not keep the law or if they violated the law even once, they sinned. The group called the "circumcision" touted the righteousness which is in the law as the means of justification. But only perfect obedience can cut it if you go that route (see Galatians 3:10-13).

Therefore the only means of being justified is through faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross. Look at Galatians 3:22 again:

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

In order to be justified by Christ we must recognize our sinful state and come to the Father on the basis of Christ's blood and righteousness.

Look for a moment at Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Also Romans 5:6, For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

And again in Romans 3:23-24, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Now in quoting these verses it does not mean that I don't believe in God's sanctifying power. A few verses to consider on the subject are as follows:

Titus 2:14, Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:14-17, By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
 
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Jason,

I'm not sure that I'm satisfied with your answer. Could you please elaborate more on this, and also give your answer to each verse or verse group underneath a quoting of the verse or verse group?

iow, quote the verse or verses and then give your exposition on what you think they mean. This will make your response a more concise one.

The change in the law has to do with the fact that we don't look at a set of do's and don'ts anymore, but rather at a set of vices and virtues (see Galatians 5:16-24 for Paul's reinterpretation of the law). But this means that there are still things to be avoided according to the change of law. And it should be clear that within the change of law not one jot or tittle has passed away from what was already there; therefore there have only been additions to the law within the change; and it is clear that those who obey and teach to obey the least of the commandments in the OT will be called great by our Lord and Saviour on that day. Matthew 5:17-20.

Also as believers we are no longer under the law (Romans 6:14), although the law is written on our hearts and minds (Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16). So it no longer has the power to condemn us from the outside, because we place our trust in the finished work of Christ and walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh. Because we walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4). Because we are not carnally-minded but spiritually-minded, we are subject in our minds to the law of the Lord (Romans 8:7).

Also my point about Galatians 6:13 was that Paul said not even those who tout a perfect walk according to the law, have such a walk. The circumcision was a group of people who said that you could keep the law perfectly and thus be saved. They believed that you could be justified by law-keeping. But even they didn't keep the law and therefore were not justified by law-keeping themselves.

Sin is the transgression of the law. And therefore if someone did not keep the law or if they violated the law even once, they sinned. The group called the "circumcision" touted the righteousness which is in the law as the means of justification. But only perfect obedience can cut it if you go that route (see Galatians 3:10-13).

Therefore the only means of being justified is through faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross. Look at Galatians 3:22 again:

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

In order to be justified by Christ we must recognize our sinful state and come to the Father on the basis of Christ's blood and righteousness.

Look for a moment at Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Also Romans 5:6, For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

And again in Romans 3:23-24, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Now in quoting these verses it does not mean that I don't believe in God's sanctifying power. A few verses to consider on the subject are as follows:

Titus 2:14, Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:14-17, By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Imagine if the president of the United States had pardoned every criminal today. They would be set free in society and any future sins or crimes they would do would automatically be pardoned. Imagine the chaos that would result if such a thing were to happen. Society itself would crumble by the justification of immorality. You are wanting me to believe that by telling others that they are forgiven of all sin or crimes today means that they will want to love God more and do the right thing. Sorry. I just do not see that. If you tell people they are free to sin with no consequences to their soul in the after life, then they are going to sin as a way of life and turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

However, if there is one thing your Bible teaches it is that you cannot turn God's grace into a license for immorality on any level. For it is written,

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4 NIV).

How do they deny the Lord?

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Of course some of them will profess that they have good works in their life, but they also worked iniquity or sin. Jesus will say to them, "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity." (Matthew 7:23).

For Jesus says that those who do not do what He says are likened to fools who built their house upon the sand whereby when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

The Scriptures also say that Jesus will send forth his angels and they will gather out anything that sins or does iniquity within HIS KINGDOM and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42).

Meaning, Jesus will gather out of HIS KINGDOM any sinning believers (by His angels) and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Jesus says that if you do not receive His words, those very words will judge you on the last day.

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

What kind of words (can we not receive) from Jesus can judge us?

Well, words like,

If you look upon a woman in lust your whole body can be in danger of being cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

If you do not forgive your Father will not forgive you (Matthew 6:15).

What you probably are not aware of (that the Bible teaches) is that just one serious sin can separate you from God spiritually (if such a sin is not repented of). Adam was separated by just one sin in the Garden. The devil deceived Eve by convincing her that she would not die (i.e. not die spiritually). This is the same lie that is being pushed by the devil today. "Yea, ye shall not die." (Genesis 3:4). Do not be deceived is what Paul says for those who live unrighteously (Which can be the result of teaching others that God's grace is a license to sin on some level).

9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

For example: John Piper appears to teach that we must live righteously in order for Eternal Security to be true. However, he really does not believe that, though. He says that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. Just Google his views on suicide. But if I teach that you can sin and still be saved, I am turning God's grace into a license for immorality (even if it is just one sin). God cannot agree with a believer thinking they can do evil on any level with the thinking they are righteous and good with God. It doesn't work like that. That would be like God rewarding a disloyal servant or a husband rewarding his wife for being unfaithful to him. Such a thing would not make any sense.

Words like, "Well done good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of thy Lord" have no meaning if God's grace can be used as a license for immorality on some level.


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