Thank you for being nice.
YouAreAwesome said:
Sanctification can be biblically defined "set apart". We are set apart from sin and placed into the Spirit. We are immediately "sinless" and "perfect" at the moment we are saved. If sinless perfectionism is a goal, then we achieved it already. It is the state of being "in Christ", literally one with Him in the Spirit. The circumcision of our hearts has removed the sinful inclination. Following this it is our natural inclination to desire God. From this place the change that occurs in us is not from sinner to sinless. The change is the renewing of the mind; learning who we really are in Christ, that old things have already passed away, and all things have been made new. We learn about how our true self is perfectly loving and awesome, not sinful.
We are only made perfect by the power of Christ. I agree.
But we disagree on how we get there or on the timing.
While a believer can reach a state of Sinless Perfection rather quickly, many believers have not achieved this perfection overnight. Even Paul himself said he had not yet attained perfection in his letter to the Philippians.
"I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me." (Philippians 3:12 NLT).
Also, James says, by works is faith made perfect.
For he says, “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (
James 2:22).
We are also told to perfect holiness in the fear of GOD.
“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (
2 Corinthians 7:1).
Paul says we must become like a perfect man growing until we become like Christ and his perfection.
For he says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (
Ephesians 4:13 EXB).
As for saying our true self is loving and awesome (Which is a part of the false motivational self help speech of today):
Well, Jesus says there is none good but GOD (Matthew 19:17).
For if any man thinks himself to be something when he is nothing he deceives himself (Galatians 6:3).
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think
of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (Romans 12:3).
"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency
is of God" (2 Corinthians 3:5).
"...Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits." (Romans 12:16).
YouAreAwesome said:
Eternal Security and "sinless perfection" can go hand in hand.
But you don't believe in Eternal Security. So why do you say that Eternal Security goes hand in hand with Sinless Perfectionism?
YouAreAwesome said:
I am not a OSAS proponent, but I'm not a sin and lose salvation proponent either (as we've discussed in earlier threads).
The only way you can't believe in Eternal Security and yet also believe that "Sin Does Not Separate A Believer From GOD" is if you are a:
#1. Non-OSAS/SIn Cannot Separate You From GOD Proponent who:
(a) Believes that: A Person Can Walk Away From God of Their Own Free Will.
However, the problem with the belief that says "Sin Cannot Separate a Believer from GOD" is that it condones sin (Which is something GOD can never agree with because He is holy and righteous). Repentance from having honestly slipped up into sin is different because one is not seeking to do evil against GOD with the thinking they are in His good graces. A person can make an honest mistake and repent and be saved. But how is there salvation for those who think they can willing do evil ahead of time? Wouldn't telling people about the belief that says, "Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From GOD" lead them to think that they have a license to sin?
That is why I currently believe your belief here (based off the information you have given me) is no different than the immorality that is condoned within the two popular versions of Eternal Security. Anyways, if you or anyone else is interested: Here are the three major different versions of Eternal Security.
#1. Classic OSAS (Major Immorality Version)
There is the version of Eternal Security that says you can sin as much as you like (like hating, committing sexual immorality, lying, etc.) and still be saved. In a nutshell, it is essentially telling people that they have a license to sin.
#2. Mid Range OSAS (Lesser Immorality Version)
This version of Eternal Security is a little harder to identify. They say that a believer must live a holy life generally to be characterized as a true believer, but yet, they also believe that a believer dying in one or two unrepentant sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc. does not necessarily mean that a person is not saved. This is still a problem because it condones the idea that a person can do horrible evil on some level with GOD still rewarding them with Heaven despite their evil.
#3. OSAS Lite (Non Immorality Version)
This is the version of Eternal Security that says that if you are not living a holy life, then you were never born again to begin with. While this version of Eternal Security is not as popular, it is still flawed because we can have an assurance of our salvation and that we are born again if we repent of our sins to the LORD. But yet, this teaching denies that a believer can fall away from the faith or that they can choose of their own free will to leave GOD. However, this is the only version of Eternal Security or wrong view on salvation whereby I can call them my true brother (because they do not make excuses for condoning immorality by saying that sin cannot separate you from GOD). They believe a believer will repent and walk righteously.
YouAreAwesome said:
Nevertheless sinless living is normal whether salvation is final or conditional.
On this statement we agree.
it is a normal thing for believers to stop sinning if Jesus lives within them.
However, salvation is conditional.
YouAreAwesome said:
Sin does not remove our salvation, nor does it separate us from God. God's love is greater than anything that tries to separate us from Him.
Sin is separation from God:
Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.
Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them
Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Deuteronomy 31:17-18
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Proverbs 1:28 CJB and
Proverbs 1:29
Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord
Isaiah 57:17 ESV
Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Job 27:8-9 GNV
For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?
Zechariah 7:13 KJ2
Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.
Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT
Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.
Jeremiah 14:10-12
Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
Isaiah 58:9 HCSB
At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say,
‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,
Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.
Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.
Psalm 34:15-16
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Matthew 5:28-30
28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
Matthew 6:15
"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"
Matthew 12:36-37
36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
Matthew 12:41
"The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; ..."
Jonah 3:6-10
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered
him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused
it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that
is in their hands.
9 Who can tell
if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did
it not."
Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.
John 3:20
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.
1 John 1:6-7
6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1 John 2:4
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Important Note: Jesus is the Truth (See John 14:6, and Jesus is the source of a person's eternal life. See 1 John 5:12).
1 John 3:15
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."
Romans 11:22
"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off."
Galatians 5:19-21
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are
these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told
you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Hebrews 10:26
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
Hebrews 12:14
"Follow ... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord"
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
YouAreAwesome said:
Sin brings guilt and condemnation on our side (not from God) and it leads to rejecting God. But God is eternally loving and salvific.
Yet, a person can still walk away from GOD, right?
YouAreAwesome said:
He does not want any to perish, but that all would come to know Him.
Well, you left the most important part out. Repentance.
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
YouAreAwesome said:
For example, you gave the example of adultery leading to divorce. Adultery is not divorce itself. Adultery gives grounds for divorce. God never divorces us, sin leads us to divorce Him if we don't repent of it. It becomes like a weight on our shoulders and in our spirit, heavy and depressing. We then have two options, remove the guilt through repentance (realising we are forgiven and that God loves us, and turning from the sin), or we remove it by rejecting the Holy Spirit. Better is to never sin!
Actually, Jesus said that the sin of adultery within one's heart can lead to being cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).
Again, it is no different when a husband who is disloyal with his wife and just pays her lip service that he is sorry (but he is not changing). If the husband continues to cheat (no matter what sorrowful words he says to her), she is going to divorce or leave him. Would not GOD have to agree with a believer's sin or evil in order for a "Sin and Still Be Saved" Type belief to work? If not, then please explain.
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