Islam Muslims Objection to the Trinity

Traveling teacher said:

Let me say here that I am Christian and never doubted that Jesus is the son of God.........
But have wavered as a youth of committing to His standards of self-sacrifice love and forgiveness....

I have staed for years that the trinity is confusing and a stumbling block to many especially jews and muslims.......
Also let me state to non-christians that I dont believe you have to believe int the Trinity to be saved.....
As has previously been stated...the word trinity is not in the Bible......

I have belonged to 4 different churches in the last 50 years....american
Only one taught the trinity as listed......

CHurch of Christ
Nndeniminational...chrismatic
MEssianic Jewish Christian
Bible church...only one that taught trinity....

So no I do not beleive in the word trinity as it is not in the Bible and confusing doctrine.......
Almost saying that there are 2-3'Gods that are equal....

As Jesus is under the authority of His father.....
1 corinthians 15::28
The son himself will be subject to Him.......
And the Father knows all but doesnt share all with His son
Matthew 24:36
No on knows that day and hour not the son or the angels but my Father only......

As is stated the greatest commandment is the shema
Deutoronmy 6:4
Hear oh Israel the Lord your God Yahweh is one.....
And you shall worship and love Yahweh your God with all your heart soul mind and strength.....

This was the name given to Moses when he came to Mt Sinai the sacred mountain in Arabia that is there to this day......galations 4:25.....
Where he recieved the 10'commandments
.
Exodus 3:15
Yahweh the God of abraham isaac and jacob...
This is my name forever....
Moses was on holy ground when He heard the voice of Yahweh at the foot of mt sinai
MOses spent 80 years in midian(arabia) and parts of jordan and sinai peninsuala.....
Moses spoke of a prophet messiah to come after him..
Deut. 18:18-19
I will raise up a prophet like you(moses) from among ther brethren...and He shall speak. Alll that I command Him..

This is where I differ with muslims and Jews as there is only one God but His name is Yahweh ...and his son is Yahshua or Jesus.........is the promised Messiah

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Great post and informative. As far as differing with Muslims, that is on 2 points:

The name of God you say is Yahweh and is pronounced as such:

Could you show me where in the NT this name is used?

You say Jesus pbuh is the son of God, and Muslims would agree on this if it's meant as a First Century Jew would understand the term, ie a god fearing pious servant of God. Is this how you understand it too?

I would also add, the God of Abraham pbuh was also the God of Ishmael pbuh and the Ishmaelites intermarried with the Israelites.

Muslim-UK said:

You accept Genesis to Revelation to be the word of God, thus I use all of it in discussions. Non Muslim Scholars have explained many books of the Bible are anonymous, disputed and unreliable. Many Scholarly books have been written on the subject, the vast majority of these Scholars being from Christian backgrounds.

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Understood. What I wonder is if you're convinced the New Testament authors didn't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, or if you're really not sure this is the case. If you're sure, I'd like to hear why, so I can see how strong your logical argument is to support your view.

Abraham brought his wife Sarah from Syria into the land of canaan where God told him he would make his descendents a great nation and a group of nations....
Genesis 12 1-4
He sarah his wife and servant, lot his nephew....s journeyed to modern day Israel(canaan) and a famine drove them down to Egypt....
His wife was kindnaped by pharoah and God sent plagues to pharoah so Pharaoh drove abraham and sarah out of egypt.....
they left with hagar sarahs egyption servent from pharoahs house......
Genesis 12
Sarah could not have children so she and abraham decided to get Hagar as suragate mother or concubine for a child...and ismael was born...
Genesis 16
13 years later God sent angels to sarah and abraham to tell them that sarah would have a child...Abraham was 100 and sarah was 90........she laughed at God s word and thus the child was named Isaac meaning laghter....
after Isaac was grown ...Sarah and Hagar quarreled over thier children as to who whold be Gods chosen to bring forth the inheritance of the seed of Abraham ...the messiah
Genesis 21:10-12
God spoke to abraham...in Isaac your seed shall be called...
Because of the conflict Hagar ran off in the desert with her son Ismael...and almost died
untill an angel came and brought water from a rock
God promised to make isamel also a great nation....but in the land of Paran
genesis 21:18-21.......southern Jordan and northern arabia..

Abrahams grandson from Isaac was jacob and Esah......
Jacob stole Esau's inheritance and because Esau wanted to kill Jacob..Jacob had to return to Syria to start his family.....
Genesis 27
Esah got rebelious wives from the canaanites that was forbidden by the God of Abraham....they caused much heartache to Esaus parents so he decided to go get a wife from Isamel....
Geneisis 26:34-35
Genesis 36:3...basemath ismael's daughter

Jacob went to syria and got 2 wives and 2 concubines..rachel and leah......
leah gave birth to Judah...
Genesis 29:35
the coming messiah would come through Judah as Jacob prophesied befor he died..
Genesis 49:10
The scepter(rulers staff) shall not depart from Judah.....and to Him shall be the obedience of the people....
Yahshua-Jesus traces His ancestry back to David-Abraham-Isaac-Jacob and Judah..
Matthew 1:1-6
Luke 3:31-34

@Muslim-UK :

Anyway, thank you for your time. Perhaps we can have another thoughtful conversation soon.

spockrates said:

Understood. What I wonder is if you're convinced the New Testament authors didn't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, or if you're really not sure this is the case. If you're sure, I'd like to hear why, so I can see how strong your logical argument is to support your view.

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this is the way i see it; the authors of (or at least those who rewrote) the NT wanted to introduce a new god (jesus) but dont know how to reconcile having one true god (god of israel) while introducing another (jesus). they wanted to be accepted by both hebrews who are staunch monotheists, and greeks (gentiles) who find it more appealing having gods with offsprings (ie hercules, perseus etc).

this being said, the NT only hinted that jesus is god, but did not explicitly say that jesus is god nor there are 3 persons in one god nor there are 3 gods.

the true God is proud not humble, he is proud to say that he created this created that, he is proud to proclaim that he is all-powerful, he is all-knowing etc. he is proud and not humble (being humble is for created beings only) and has the authority and proud to proclaim that he is God(and there is no other), whether people like it or not and he did, many times in the jewish scriptures, unlike jesus.

understand this over the past 2000 years Jesus teachings have been distorted...
the trinity as such is not mentioned by name in the Bible.....
also the trinity teaching didnt appear until around 300 ad.....
the trinity doctrine has caused much confusion and division among christians since this time....
the teaching of the trinity that there is 2 Gods is not what Jesus taught.....

Jesus refered to himself as the son of God and as the son of Man...
But always honored His father as greater than himself and did not try to put himself equal to God but always put himself under God....

that being said Jesus did live a sinless life was dead on a cross and rose the 3rd day... and because of this perfect life He forgave the sins of all those who would follow Him....
He is now in heaven sitting at His Fathers right hand and will return to take all those who have answered his calling back to heaven to see His Father face to face.....

The difference in Jesus and His father and other gods is Jesus will appear to you in a more personal way... a dream or an anwered prayer....
Ask God to send you a christian to talk to you about Jesus and His way of entering into eternal life........
grace and peace

Traveling teacher said:

The difference in Jesus and His father and other gods is Jesus will appear to you in a more personal way... a dream or an anwered prayer....
Ask God to send you a christian to talk to you about Jesus and His way of entering into eternal life........
grace and peace

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different christian sects also claim that they can pray to jesus and he will give them signs, but do they have same doctrines?! no, same god giving different signs to different sects who have different beliefs?! a mind can be deceived, if you are so willing and have deep conviction that jesus will give you a sign that certain doctrines, beliefs etc are true, chances are you are going to perceive anything as a sign, so that is not the criterion.

DWA2DAY said:

Hi Jibreehill
Clearly you have misunderstood my point. So allow me to put it another way. You have two options :-
1) You can look at people around you, observe there actions and base your belief on what they say or do.
2) You can read and follow the teaching of a religions text as the foundation of your faith.

My advice to if you are looking for the truth is to read and follow the teaching of your chosen religions sacred text and not your fellow man.

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thats exactly my point, other christian sects looked for the truth from the NT, and since there are no clear and explicit verses that say there are 3 persons in one god, there are no clear and explicit verses that say god and jesus are the same entity, there are no clear and explicit verses that say that there are 3 distinct gods, it resulted in many different interpretations of the godhead.

i say it again, if the trinity is the most important doctrine of christianity, why didnt jesus mention that there are 3 persons in 1 god? unlike the OT god who is very clear about himself, proclaiming that he is one god, he alone is god, and there is no other god besides him. and if the OT god is the trinity god, he should have made it clear in his revelations to the prophets that he was a trinity so as not to create confusion among his adherents

spockrates said:

Understood. What I wonder is if you're convinced the New Testament authors didn't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, or if you're really not sure this is the case. If you're sure, I'd like to hear why, so I can see how strong your logical argument is to support your view.

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The Disciples were born and raised Jews, and would have been strict Monotheists. My evidence comes from the Qur'an:

Qur'an 3:52
But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].

I'm not convinced anyone believed in One God in 3 co equal persons and see no real evidence for this in the Bible.

Traveling teacher said:

Jesus refered to himself as the son of God and as the son of Man...
But always honored His father as greater than himself and did not try to put himself equal to God but always put himself under God....

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Indeed Jesus pbuh called himself “Ben Adam” instead of “Ben Elah” The Hebrew expression “Ben Adam” appears 107 times in the Old Testament and 84 times in the New Testament of the current Bible. Ben meaning “son of” and Adam meaning “human or man”. Ben/Bin is a word which is commonly used even today by all Semitic people to convey who their “Human” father is. And “Adam” can be a name or to mean man/human being. The Messiah (Christ) refers to himself in the third person as “Ben Adam” over and over again, 81 times in the Gospels, which is translated in our English Bibles as “son of man” and not as “son of human” or “son of Adam” to avoid the impression he was not the son of God, which was a title given to Christ but seldom acknowledged by Christ to avoid the current confusion that he is a literal son of God.

Traveling teacher said:

that being said Jesus did live a sinless life was dead on a cross and rose the 3rd day... and because of this perfect life He forgave the sins of all those who would follow Him....

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6 disciples dispute he died on the cross. Those who followed Jesus pbuh and not others preaching a different Gospel coming after him are indeed said to be amongst the successful in the hereafter.

Traveling teacher said:

He is now in heaven sitting at His Fathers right hand and will return to take all those who have answered his calling back to heaven to see His Father face to face.....

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What is the location given for his return?

Traveling teacher said:

The difference in Jesus and His father and other gods is Jesus will appear to you in a more personal way... a dream or an anwered prayer....
Ask God to send you a christian to talk to you about Jesus and His way of entering into eternal life........
grace and peace

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Jesus pbuh had a God that he prayed to and in the Aramaic NT the name he uses is Allah, The most glorified, the most high. Muslims, Jews and people of other faiths also have their prayers answered and receive dreams of glad tidings.
Peace

DWA2DAY said:

Sure I must agree if you as a Muslim audience a question relating to the Quran, they will agree.
What I find a dilemma is when you ask a question relating to Jesus from the Quran, like -
Why does the Quran say Jesus is the Word of God (Allah) Muslim are very quick to say the Quran is wrong, yet it is clearly stated in the Arabic form?

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I've never known a Muslim to say Qur'an is wrong when it says Jesus pbuh is the word of Allah swt. God said, 'Be' and Jesus pbuh was. Pretty simple really. He was also the 'Spirit' of Allah swt, meaning his soul was personally delivered to Mary's ra womb by Angel Gabriel pbuh.

Muslim-UK said:

Indeed Jesus pbuh called himself “Ben Adam” instead of “Ben Elah” The Hebrew expression “Ben Adam” appears 107 times in the Old Testament and 84 times in the New Testament of the current Bible. Ben meaning “son of” and Adam meaning “human or man”. Ben/Bin is a word which is commonly used even today by all Semitic people to convey who their “Human” father is. And “Adam” can be a name or to mean man/human being. The Messiah (Christ) refers to himself in the third person as “Ben Adam” over and over again, 81 times in the Gospels, which is translated in our English Bibles as “son of man” and not as “son of human” or “son of Adam” to avoid the impression he was not the son of God, which was a title given to Christ but seldom acknowledged by Christ to avoid the current confusion that he is a literal son of God.

6 disciples dispute he died on the cross. Those who followed Jesus pbuh and not others preaching a different Gospel coming after him are indeed said to be amongst the successful in the hereafter.

What is the location given for his return?

Jesus pbuh had a God that he prayed to and in the Aramaic NT the name he uses is Allah, The most glorified, the most high. Muslims, Jews and people of other faiths also have their prayers answered and receive dreams of glad tidings.
Peace

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Zacheriah 14::4
In that day His feet will stand on the Mr of olives
Luke 24:50...HE rose up to heaven near my of olives
He led them. Out to bethany...departed from them and carried to heaven......
Acts 1:11
Jesus we was taken into heaven will come in like manner as you saw Him go.....I

No not everyone receives a vision or sign...but His followers are those who proclaim Him throughout the world ......
But if you sincerely pray to Him He will send His holy spirit into your heart to guide you and give you peace with life's troubles...
You must act on a prayer of faith and trustJesus and His father to guide you..

jibreelhill said:

this is the way i see it; the authors of (or at least those who rewrote) the NT wanted to introduce a new god (jesus) but dont know how to reconcile having one true god (god of israel) while introducing another (jesus). they wanted to be accepted by both hebrews who are staunch monotheists, and greeks (gentiles) who find it more appealing having gods with offsprings (ie hercules, perseus etc).

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I appreciate the reply. Thank you.

It's an interesting theory. What evidence do you have to support the way you see it?

this being said, the NT only hinted that jesus is god, but did not explicitly say that jesus is god nor there are 3 persons in one god nor there are 3 gods.

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I believe you're mistaken, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting the Bible. Would you care to examine a few passages of the Bible I have in mind and explain to me how they don't explicitly support the doctrine?

the true God is proud not humble, he is proud to say that he created this created that, he is proud to proclaim that he is all-powerful, he is all-knowing etc. he is proud and not humble (being humble is for created beings only) and has the authority and proud to proclaim that he is God(and there is no other), whether people like it or not and he did, many times in the jewish scriptures, unlike jesus.

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It seems, then that a person should not try to imitate Allah, for it's wrong for one to be proud. Perhaps, then these words of Paul should be considered bad advice:

Muslim-UK said:

The Disciples were born and raised Jews, and would have been strict Monotheists. My evidence comes from the Qur'an:

Qur'an 3:52
But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].

I'm not convinced anyone believed in One God in 3 co equal persons and see no real evidence for this in the Bible.

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I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I'm convinced, but perhaps I'm deceived. If I show you a few short passages of the Bible that I believe provide evidence for this, would you be willing to explain to me why I'm mistaken?

spockrates said:

I appreciate the reply. Thank you.

It's an interesting theory. What evidence do you have to support the way you see it?

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no evidence, as you said its a theory.

but when it is said that god had a son, or became man, dwell among men, and it was taught to the early greeks and pagans who believe that god had offsprings the likes of half men half gods like hercules, perseus etc, and accepted by pagans and not accepted by hebrews, one would think that this theory makes sense.

spockrates said:

I believe you're mistaken, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting the Bible. Would you care to examine a few passages of the Bible I have in mind and explain to me how they don't explicitly support the doctrine?

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there are no passages in the bible that explicitly support the doctrine of the trinity, otherwise there will be no oneness christianity, no tritheism christianity, etc. in the OT, it is very clear and explicit that there is only one god and no other besides him.

spockrates said:

It seems, then that a person should not try to imitate Allah, for it's wrong for one to be proud. Perhaps, then these words of Paul should be considered bad advice:

Ephesians 5:1-2 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.​

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without goD we are nothing, man has to be humble.