Islam Muslims Objection to the Trinity

jibreelhill said:

a spokesperson for the president is not greater than the president. whichever way you put it, the father is greater than jesus, therefore the trinity is wrong!

Click to expand...

I agree a president is greater than his spokesperson in authority. But is a president of a nation greater in essence than the spokesperson and any citizen, or are all of them equally valuable as human beings?

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. john 14:28

and what about john 17:3?!

Click to expand...

My thought: It's probable Jesus pbuh was saying God the Father is greater in authority, which isn't the same as saying God the Father is greater in essence.

It literally means "the recitation".

4x4toy said:

The Father is Father and his only begotten Son is Lord over all. You don't and will never know the Father except through the Son ..

Click to expand...

that still doesnt prove the trinity, and...

i think david is also called begotten son and...

the father said; "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." so who introduced who?!

and being the father, whether symbolical or literal makes the father superior to the son, therefore the trinity is wrong!

and again, i ask this to our christian friends here, where did jesus teach that there are 3 persons in one god explicitly?! like how the OT God explicitly claimed time and time again that he is one God and there is no other!

what jesus explicitly teach is that there is only one god (him and the holy spirit not included), and that is God (which the christians call father)

John 17:3 (KJV)
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

dzheremi said:

It literally means "the recitation".

Click to expand...

As in reciting the words of the God. Thank you.

jibreelhill said:

that still doesnt prove the trinity, and...

i think david is also called begotten son and...

the father said; "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." so who introduced who?!

and being the father, whether symbolical or literal makes the father superior to the son, therefore the trinity is wrong!

and again, i ask this to our christian friends here, where did jesus teach that there are 3 persons in one god explicitly?! like how the OT God explicitly claimed time and time again that he is one God and there is no other!

what jesus explicitly teach is that there is only one god (him and the holy spirit not included), and that is God (which the christians call father)

John 17:3 (KJV)
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Click to expand...

Hi, @jibreelhill. Hope you don't mind my asking. Are you thinking Peter, John, Paul and other biblical authors were followers of Islam? If so, I'd like to learn more.

spockrates said:

Thank you. Yes, if the doctrine is contradictory, then I myself would reject it. For a logical contradiction can never be true. But perhaps it's only an apparent contradiction, rather than a real one?

Click to expand...

Jesus pbuh as 100% God didn't know the hour, didn't know who touched his clothes in Mark's Gospel, didn't know the fig tree was bare. You will respond, yes in his human nature he had limited knowledge, and was making a point using the fig tree, but he's 100% God 100% of the time, so how can this make sense?

The Holy Spirit didn't know the hour either, why was he limited?

spockrates said:

Agreed. Though we use only about 10% of the capacity of our brains, even if the brain of Jesus (peace be upon him) used 100%, it would still not be able to know all that the God knows.

Click to expand...

Agreed, we know what has been revealed including:

He is One
He is unlike His creation
He hates human sacrifice
He tells us, no one will bear the sin of another

This is taught in Judaism and Islam. Christianity is at odds here.

spockrates said:

It's possible, though, that the passing of knowledge from the God to Jesus pbuh was like that of the passing of data from a server to a client on a computer network. The God decides what the human needs to know and gives him just that amount of information, since his human brain can't contain all that the God knows. Does that sound possible?

Click to expand...

Yes I fully understand and can agree, but we have been given the basics to understand and follow. Mankind possesses differing levels of understanding and intellect. God knows this and thus makes things simple for us to follow and understand:

GOD is One
We must worship him
We must not worship that which is created
We must turn to him, both in the good and bad times.
We must treat each other as we wish to be treated.
We must do good works for the sake of God
We must repent for our sins and turn to Him

This is taught in Judaism and Islam. Christianity worships Jesus pbuh, a man born of Mary, herself a creation of God.

spockrates said:

So the doctrine is this: The God is one what in three whos.

EDIT: To demonstrate it is taught in the Bible requires that one find these five teachings:

1. There is only one God
2. God is in the Father
3. God is in the Spirit
4. God is in the Son
5. The Father, Spirit and Son are different persons

Are you of the opinion that these five premises aren't supported by the biblical texts?

Click to expand...

Yes you can find verses showing all the above. Can you show me a verse showing the 3 are co eternal and equal?

spockrates said:

I've read an English translation of the Koran, (Qu'ran?) and I liked a good deal of it.

Click to expand...

Qur'an means recitation. The power comes from listening to it in Arabic. 10 mins of that with headphones on in a relaxed environment should grab your soul and reconnect it to the master server

It should remember when, in the beginning it too was a word with God:

Qur'an 7:172
And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."

Surah Al-Fatihah [1]
Quran Explorer

Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum – The Sealed Nectar (Biography Of The Prophet)

spockrates said:

Hi, @jibreelhill. Hope you don't mind my asking. Are you thinking Peter, John, Paul and other biblical authors were followers of Islam? If so, I'd like to learn more.

Click to expand...

i cannot specify whos who, but what i believe is that jesus must have had companions much like muhammad.

and the new testament is like the Hadiths written by his companions, and hadiths are not inerrant.

spockrates said:

As in reciting the words of the God. Thank you.

Click to expand...

Well, sort of, I guess...the traditional account of the Qur'an is that it is composed of revelations given to Muhammad by God via the angel Gabriel (Jibreel) to recite. This is presumably why there are certain parts in the Qur'an where the command is given in the imperative, which would make no sense otherwise: "Say (O Muhammad)! He is Allah, the One!" (Surat al Ikhlas) So you can say it's Muhammad's recitation (as in what he was literally told to recite) or that it's Allah's recitations, and I'm pretty Muslims would agree with either.

...

jibreelhill said:

i cannot specify whos who, but what i believe is that jesus must have had companions much like muhammad.

and the new testament is like the Hadiths written by his companions, and hadiths are not inerrant.

Click to expand...

Thank you. So for who is who, when looking at the New Testament of the Bible, those books with the name John were written by John, who was the youngest of the followers of Jesus pbuh. He wrote the Gospel of John, which is the book of the Bible I like best, as it has more words of Jesus pbuh than any other book. He also wrote Revelation and the letters that bear his name, such as 1 John.

Peter is believed by some Christians to be the follower of Jesus pbuh who became leader after he left them. He is quoted in the first half of the Acts, which you cited. He also wrote books of the Bible that bear his name.

Paul joined them after Jesus left, he is quoted in the second half of Acts. He wrote letters to the different communities of Christians in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus and elsewhere. Some Christians say he, rather than Peter was the leader after Jesus' pbuh departure.

@jibreelhill:

That's why I asked if you think the authors of the books that you and the other person are quoting were followers of Islam and not Christians. It's a fascinating theory, if that's what you believe. So I'd like to learn why you believe it, if indeed you do.

spockrates said:

...

Thank you. So for who is who, when looking at the New Testament of the Bible, those books with the name John were written by John, who was the youngest of the followers of Jesus pbuh. He wrote the Gospel of John, which is the book of the Bible I like best, as it has more words of Jesus pbuh than any other book. He also wrote Revelation and the letters that bear his name, such as 1 John.

Peter is believed by some Christians to be the follower of Jesus pbuh who became leader after he left them. He is quoted in the first half of the Acts, which you cited. He also wrote books of the Bible that bear his name.

Paul joined them after Jesus left, he is quoted in the second half of Acts. He wrote letters to the different communities of Christians in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus and elsewhere. Some Christians say he, rather than Peter was the leader after Jesus' pbuh departure.

Click to expand...

spockrates said:

@jibreelhill:

That's why I asked if you think the authors of the books that you and the other person are quoting were followers of Islam and not Christians. It's a fascinating theory, if that's what you believe. So I'd like to learn why you believe it, if indeed you do.

Click to expand...

when i said i cannot specify whos who, i meant i cannot exactly say what their names are, and what books of the NT exactly are the hadiths of jesus written by his companions, all i know is that he had companions like muhammad, and the injeel is not greek and not written by his companions.

[003:052] "When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims."

spockrates said:

Hi, @jibreelhill. Hope you don't mind my asking. Are you thinking Peter, John, Paul and other biblical authors were followers of Islam? If so, I'd like to learn more.

Click to expand...

Hope you don't mind my input. All Prophets submitted their will to God, they would have taught their Disciples/Companions to do the same.

The Aramaic New Testament uses terms like Mushlam, Slama and Allaha. There are also Gospels not included in the NT which show at least 6 disciples of Jesus pbuh did not believe he had been crucified. The Dead Sea Scrolls have thrown new light on First Century Christianity and shows the followers did not believe in crucifixion, resurrection or mention any hint of a Trinity. A leading Scholar who did studies on the DSS explains the beliefs of James, brother of Jesus pbuh:

jibreelhill said:

when i said i cannot specify whos who, i meant i cannot exactly say what their names are, and what books of the NT exactly are the hadiths of jesus written by his companions, all i know is that he had companions like muhammad, and the injeel is not greek and not written by his companions.

[003:052] "When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims."

Click to expand...

Their names are Peter, Andrew, James (the son of Zebedee), John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James (the son of Alphaeus), Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot. (Matthew 10:1-4 and Luke 6:12-16).

Of these 12, Peter, Matthew and John wrote books of the Bible.

Are you thinking that these companions of Jesus pbuh were Muslims?

Muslim-UK said:

Hope you don't mind my input. All Prophets submitted their will to God, they would have taught their Disciples/Companions to do the same.

The Aramaic New Testament uses terms like Mushlam, Slama and Allaha. There are also Gospels not included in the NT which show at least 6 disciples of Jesus pbuh did not believe he had been crucified. The Dead Sea Scrolls have thrown new light on First Century Christianity and shows the followers did not believe in crucifixion, resurrection or mention any hint of a Trinity. A leading Scholar who did studies on the DSS explains the beliefs of James, brother of Jesus pbuh:

Click to expand...

I like the letter Jesus' pbuh brother wrote. One of my favorite quotes by James:

Though I wonder about it's meaning in the light of my own lack of wisdom. Perhaps the wisdom the God gives me is the knowledge that I'm not wise?

spockrates said:

Their names are Peter, Andrew, James (the son of Zebedee), John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James (the son of Alphaeus), Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot. (Matthew 10:1-4 and Luke 6:12-16).

Of these 12, Peter, Matthew and John wrote books of the Bible.

Are you thinking that these companions of Jesus pbuh were Muslims?

Click to expand...

Not Judas because he failed to submit his will to God. The others, yes all were believers and accepted Monotheism.

2 Peter is said not to be written by him. Matthew did not write the Gospel according to Matthew, the anonymous Gospel was later ascribed to him. John too did not write the Gospel attributed to him, and the book of Revelation was disputed and not accepted as inspired for hundreds of years. The original works are all lost and what we have left are according to a leading NT Scholar, Professor Bart Ehrman, copies of copies of copies of copies of copies and all these copies in bold are lost. We can only reconstruct the complete Bible back to the 4th Century.

Muslim-UK said:

Not Judas because he failed to submit his will to God. The others, yes all were believers and accepted Monotheism.

2 Peter is said not to be written by him. Matthew did not write the Gospel according to Matthew, the anonymous Gospel was later ascribed to him. John too did not write the Gospel attributed to him, and the book of Revelation was disputed and not accepted as inspired for hundreds of years. The original works are all lost and what we have left are according to a leading NT Scholar, Professor Bart Ehrman, copies of copies of copies of copies of copies and all these copies in bold are lost. We can only reconstruct the complete Bible back to the 4th Century.

Click to expand...

So then, it seems we should say we should not trust the words of the gospels of Matthew and John, nor the letter of 2 Peter. When reasoning with a Christian, what books of the Bible do you use, besides Acts, which I believe you've already quoted?

spockrates said:

So then, it seems we should say we should not trust the words of the gospels of Matthew and John, nor the letter of 2 Peter. When reasoning with a Christian, what books of the Bible do you use, besides Acts, which I believe you've already quoted?

Click to expand...

You accept Genesis to Revelation to be the word of God, thus I use all of it in discussions. Non Muslim Scholars have explained many books of the Bible are anonymous, disputed and unreliable. Many Scholarly books have been written on the subject, the vast majority of these Scholars being from Christian backgrounds.

Let me say here that I am Christian and never doubted that Jesus is the son of God.........
But have wavered as a youth of committing to His standards of self-sacrifice love and forgiveness....

I have staed for years that the trinity is confusing and a stumbling block to many especially jews and muslims.......
Also let me state to non-christians that I dont believe you have to believe int the Trinity to be saved.....
As has previously been stated...the word trinity is not in the Bible......

I have belonged to 4 different churches in the last 50 years....american
Only one taught the trinity as listed......

CHurch of Christ
Nndeniminational...chrismatic
MEssianic Jewish Christian
Bible church...only one that taught trinity....

So no I do not beleive in the word trinity as it is not in the Bible and confusing doctrine.......
Almost saying that there are 2-3'Gods that are equal....

As Jesus is under the authority of His father.....
1 corinthians 15::28
The son himself will be subject to Him.......
And the Father knows all but doesnt share all with His son
Matthew 24:36
No on knows that day and hour not the son or the angels but my Father only......

As is stated the greatest commandment is the shema
Deutoronmy 6:4
Hear oh Israel the Lord your God Yahweh is one.....
And you shall worship and love Yahweh your God with all your heart soul mind and strength.....

This was the name given to Moses when he came to Mt Sinai the sacred mountain in Arabia that is there to this day......galations 4:25.....
Where he recieved the 10'commandments
.
Exodus 3:15
Yahweh the God of abraham isaac and jacob...
This is my name forever....
Moses was on holy ground when He heard the voice of Yahweh at the foot of mt sinai
MOses spent 80 years in midian(arabia) and parts of jordan and sinai peninsuala.....
Moses spoke of a prophet messiah to come after him..
Deut. 18:18-19
I will raise up a prophet like you(moses) from among ther brethren...and He shall speak. Alll that I command Him..

This is where I differ with muslims and Jews as there is only one God but His name is Yahweh ...and his son is Yahshua or Jesus.........is the promised Messiah

Muslim-UK said:

The Aramaic New Testament uses terms like Mushlam, Slama and Allaha.

Click to expand...

I'm not here to debate Muslims on either my or their theology, but I do have to wonder what you think this means. Surely you know that Arabic and Aramaic are related, being both Semitic languages, so such words are to be expected, as they are cognates of one another.

dzheremi said:

I'm not here to debate Muslims on either my or their theology, but I do have to wonder what you think this means. Surely you know that Arabic and Aramaic are related, being both Semitic languages, so such words are to be expected, as they are cognates of one another.

Click to expand...

Hi, I was just pointing out there is ample evidence showing Jesus pbuh and his followers subjected their will to God alone. In the Arabic language they would be called Muslims following Islam.