Islam Muslims Objection to the Trinity

Muslim-UK said:

One in 'purpose'. This is confirmed when read in context:

Beginning at verse John 10:23 we read about Jesus pbuh talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

These verses prove only that Jesus pbuh and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus pbuh, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus pbuh.

Also let us look at verse John 17:20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE". In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN is used, not only to describe Jesus pbuh and the Father but to describe Jesus pbuh, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus pbuh. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods.

Of the verse in question, "I and the Father are One" in (John 10:30), we also need to take note of the verses following the 30th verse in the text. In those verses, the Jews accuse Jesus pbuh falsely of claiming to be God by these words. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text: "The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '" (John 10:33).

Jesus pbuh replies to this accusation saying: "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemeth," because I said I am the son of God?'" (John 10:34-36).

Jesus pbuh was referring to the following verse from the Law:
Psalm 82:6 'I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.'

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Muslim-UK said:

as salamu alaikum,

The other thing to remember about Matthew 28:16-20 is, these are orders given by Jesus pbuh to his companions before returning to Allah swt. The Great Commission, The Final Sermon. You would think every companion would have gone forth and baptised new converts in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but not one of them did such a thing. That's right, not even a single disciple of Jesus pbuh used that formula. We can conclude two things from this, they either heard no such command and these verses were 'adjusted' by later theologians or they chose to ignore their Prophet pbuh.

There is ample evidence showing later theologians were happy to add verses and fabricate complete stories. The adulteress woman found in John and the longer ending to Mark's Gospel being two cases in point. Matthew used Mark's Gospel as a template and added details to suit his own understanding of Jesus pbuh, a man he never met.

Either way, a God choosing to mislead his chosen people for Thousands of years, never explaining the Tri-head is not an option to even be considered, thus we can conclude the Trinity is the brainchild of Pagan Philosophers.

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jibreelhill said:

peace bro.

and according to the verses (Matthew 28:16-20) he gave says "all power is given unto him(jesus)", therefore if we are to accept the verses to be true, jesus powers were just given and not innate, God's power is innate, it is not given. the trinity doctrine dictates that the 3 persons are co-equal, since jesus' power was just given unto him of course would mean that the giver is not equal to him, therefore the trinity doctrine is wrong.

and again, i ask this to our christian friends here, where did jesus teach that there are 3 persons in one god explicitly?! like what the OT God explicitly claimed time and time again that he is one God and there is no other!

what jesus explicitly teach is that there is only one god (him and the holy spirit not included), and that is God (which the christians call father)

John 17:3 (KJV)
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

nothing can be more explicit that this!

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spockrates said:

For example, the power (or authority) to speak for the God is not the same as the power (or miraculous ability) to bring a dead person back to life. They're two different kinds of power, don't you think?

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Muslim-UK said:

One in 'purpose'. This is confirmed when read in context:

Beginning at verse John 10:23 we read about Jesus pbuh talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

These verses prove only that Jesus pbuh and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus pbuh, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus pbuh.

Also let us look at verse John 17:20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE". In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN is used, not only to describe Jesus pbuh and the Father but to describe Jesus pbuh, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus pbuh. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods.

Of the verse in question, "I and the Father are One" in (John 10:30), we also need to take note of the verses following the 30th verse in the text. In those verses, the Jews accuse Jesus pbuh falsely of claiming to be God by these words. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text: "The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '" (John 10:33).

Jesus pbuh replies to this accusation saying: "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemeth," because I said I am the son of God?'" (John 10:34-36).

Jesus pbuh was referring to the following verse from the Law:
Psalm 82:6 'I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.'

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4x4toy said:

So, Who was Jesus Father and by whom do we become adopted sons and daughters of God?
Who was Muhammads father ? How does God become your Father ? Are you Born Again of the Spirit of God ? Allah has no son so who's son or daughter are Muslims of ? Ephesians 1:3-5

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Muslim-UK said:

Hi,
All Prophets were given powers by the permission of GOD. Moses pbuh against the magicians, Jesus pbuh showed signs of wonder to a society making medical advancements, Muhammad pbuh to a people who were in awe of poets and those showing eloquence in public speaking.

Acts 2:22 "O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you..." Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus. Jesus thus even to his disciples, was a man, not a God, which was something that developed over decades amongst a Pagan mindset.

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Muslim-UK said:

Jesus pbuh had a adopted Earthly Father and a Spiritual Father in Heaven. Adam pbuh had no Earthly Father, something the Qur'an points out to people like you to reflect upon.

Muhammad and the majority of Prophets, peace be upon them all had biological Fathers and all had God as their Spiritual Father. Though the Qur'an doesn't use Father due to the error of the Christians, it does use the word Rabb as a one of the 99 names of God, meaning one who raises, cherishes, loves and guides mankind.

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4x4toy said:

Why do Muslims mutilate some girls calling it circumcision ? The only circumcision is the spiritual circumcision of the heart when we are born again .

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spockrates said:

Hi, @jibreelhill. To be fair and logically consistent, if we say one means unity of purpose, shouldn't we also say it's probable that power means authority vested in Jesus pbuh?

For example, the power (or authority) to be a spokesperson for the God is not the same as the power (or miraculous ability) to bring a dead person back to life. They're two different kinds of power, don't you think?

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spockrates said:

Off topic? Perhaps you could start another discussion?

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jibreelhill said:

a spokesperson for the president is not greater than the president. whichever way you put it, the father is greater than jesus, therefore the trinity is wrong!

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. john 14:28

and what about john 17:3?!

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spockrates said:

Thank you for the reply. I believe your argument is a good one against Gnosticism, but not necessarily against the beliefs of most Christians.

You see, Christians who are protagonists of the doctrine called the Trinity do believe Jesus pbuh was 100% human, but they also believe he was 100% the God at the same time. So they say Jesus pbuh was and still is both God and human.

Therefore, the biblical passage you cited doesn't present a strong argument against the doctrine, though there might be other passages that do.

Do you have any in mind?

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4x4toy said:

But we are Born again of the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the trinity we become a child of God .. One God in three persons

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4x4toy said:

The Father is Father and his only begotten Son is Lord over all. You don't and will never know the Father except through the Son ..

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Muslim-UK said:

The greatest Commandment according to Jesus pbuh was 'Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.' Had Jesus pbuh thought himself part of a Trinity, he had the perfect opportunity to tell the man who asked how to obtain salvation.

I have discussed the Doctrine of Trinity on this forum and the conclusion is it is contradictory and thus confusing. We know God is not the author of confusion. He is beyond our limited understanding, but Scripture is revealed so we may know what he requires from us, not to add to our confusion.

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GOD is immortal, all knowing and unlike his creation; not a man who by himself can do nothing, takes himself away, falls in prostration and prays to 'his' God. A man who along with the Holy Spirit, (Angel Gabriel pbuh in Islam) does not know the hour, knowledge which is only with God the Father.

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Furthermore the Doctrine of Trinity; 3 distinct persons, together from the same essence as One God, co equal and co eternal is not taught anywhere in the Bible. God's chosen people were never told about such a concept either. You know, his chosen people, the elect, his beloved.

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1. There is only one God
2. God is in the Father
3. God is in the Spirit
4. God is in the Son
5. The Father, Spirit and Son are different persons

Finally to remove any doubt the Doctrine is not from God, He makes clear in his Final Revelation to mankind to reject the terrible idea and return back to him or count amongst the losers in the hereafter.
Peace

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spockrates said:

I've read an English translation of the Koran, (Qu'ran?)

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dzheremi said:

It's the same word: القرآن

The transliteration beginning with Q is more faithful to the Arabic (though I'd put the apostrophe in between the R and the A, since the little squiggle over the alif indicates a glottal stop followed by a long A: "qur-aan", not "qu-raan"), though in English the spelling Koran is much older (1610s vs. 1876).

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