Divine Sex: Liberating Sex from Religious Tradition?

SuperCloud

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Is that why Jerome and others said the HOLY Spirit is so appalled by marital relations that he has to leave the house when that goes on? Or that the ONLY reason God allowed married sex is to make more virgins for the church?

Well... you know, the thing about Catholicism or being Catholic is that its like America or being American. You can always find some Americans saying some things. Although Catholicism was never the movement called Puritanism that arose in England, Catholicism always had puritans within its ranks.

Protestantism arose in Europe, in Western Christianity out of Catholicism not in the East or out of Eastern Christianity, that would have been Islam. Both Protestantism and Islam were conservative movements (not liberal). Both were iconoclastic but Protestantism unlike Islam had an intense problem with what it viewed as sin and sexual sin rampant and tolerated in the Catholic world. This toleration of sexual sin was particularly evident in Italy and the City of Rome itself.

I would say the Ecstasy of St. Teresa portrays the Catholic view of sexual pleasure in relation to the final destination of heaven or the "Beatific Vision" pretty well.


But you can't figure out whether the Church promotes large families and therefore repeated marital sex or whether the Church opposes it by trying to radically decrease Church numbers by pressuring everyone into becoming vowed celibates rather than marrying. So, it depends on what the critique wants to complain about as to which he puts up as the long, old, enduring model of the Church. If its to berate Catholicism for opposing condom use then the Church only wants a few virgins and pushes married people to inhumanly have lots of sexual intercourse. If it's to accuse Catholicism of promoting virginity then Catholicism into the vehicle which tries to stop married people from having sex and true to get all their offspring to become nuns and priests with Catholic families shrinking until they're almost unheard of.

The actual reality has more layers to it and Catholicism promotes marriage within the Church and lots of marital sex for larger families. It hopes one or two of the children born in those families goes on to take religious vows as nuns and priests. But if one opts for matrimony--which comes with sexual benefits, romantic benefits, parental and eventually grandparent benefits--that being a priest and nun presumably don't have, then Catholicism says there are rules and limitations to those things. Monogamy being one. And sex geared toward reproduction of the species being another.
 
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MiniEmu

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I have read it.

It's interesting, there was some focus on defining when a sexual acts becomes sinful and why. The focus seemed to be less on sexual acts themselves and more on their effects on those involved. There was also some exploration on how contemporary Christian views on sex have perhaps clouded our abilities to appreciate the Biblical view, which I'm not entirely sure I agree with but the argument was strong enough. I do think several good points were made that sincere and God fearing individuals have presented their understanding of sex as Biblical, and these have simply become accepted as such rather than going back and doing the necessary study to appreciate what the Bible actually does say.

Personally I think it was rather well written. I interpreted it as promoting Biblical study of sex as opposed to treating it like a dirty little secret. If people read the book I'm sure they'll realise it isn't really justifying orgies or promoting sexual loopholes, just encouraging genuine study of the Bible to better understand sex within Christianity. It does, obviously, discuss practices we now baulk at, but it explores why we have rejected them rather than promoting them.
 
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SuperCloud

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I have read it.

It's interesting, there was some focus on defining when a sexual acts becomes sinful and why. The focus seemed to be less on sexual acts themselves and more on their effects on those involved. There was also some exploration on how contemporary Christian views on sex have perhaps clouded our abilities to appreciate the Biblical view, which I'm not entirely sure I agree with but the argument was strong enough. I do think several good points were made that sincere and God fearing individuals have presented their understanding of sex as Biblical, and these have simply become accepted as such rather than going back and doing the necessary study to appreciate what the Bible actually does say.

Personally I think it was rather well written. I interpreted it as promoting Biblical study of sex as opposed to treating it like a dirty little secret. If people read the book I'm sure they'll realise it isn't really justifying orgies or promoting sexual loopholes, just encouraging genuine study of the Bible to better understand sex within Christianity. It does, obviously, discuss practices we now baulk at, but it explores why we have rejected them rather than promoting them.

The liberal Bible. The one's Christian distorted. Christians created the compilation of texts called the Bible. Not sure how they distorted sex, Paul capturing and escaped slave and returning him back to his master (New Testament), or Moses in his role as Pope and Inquisitor General, out in the desert ordering supposedly thousands killed for the heresy of worshiping the Golden Calf.

Naw, some cat asked Jesus if they can multiple, hundreds of ol' ladies like the Jewish players that came before them. Jesus said no. He said, naw player, you get one ol' lady and that's it.

I guess the Mormons came along a said Catholics and Orthodox distorted that. All we need to know is the "pure" Bible the "pure writers of the Bible," because they were like, "Player! scripture says you can have 6 wives and sodomize them all! The 21st century Christian just don't want you to have no fun."

If you're a man can you a boyfriend too? What about dressing him in leather and keeping him in a cage?

Short of those things I'm not sure what a book quoting scripture is going to teach me--more "liberally"--about sex. Or maybe my mind is just that corrupted that I can come up with a bunch of ideas on my own.
 
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MiniEmu

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Ha. I shouldn't laugh, I'm not sure you meant it to be funny (perhaps you did), so I apologise for finding it so.

I'm not sure what it will teach you either. Or anyone really. It's just interesting. The primary theme seems to be encouraging Christians to actually read the Bible and apply some thought to their approach to sex as opposed to accepting what the pastor tells them.

They seem pretty straight forward on the fact God forbid certain things very clearly, so who knows. Perhaps I am too simple and they really were promoting all night shenanigans involving the entire neighbourhood.
 
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SuperCloud

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Ha. I shouldn't laugh, I'm not sure you meant it to be funny (perhaps you did), so I apologise for finding it so.

Partly. Partly.


I'm not sure what it will teach you either. Or anyone really. It's just interesting. The primary theme seems to be encouraging Christians to actually read the Bible and apply some thought to their approach to sex as opposed to accepting what the pastor tells them.

You're intent on making it so no one can actually hate you aren't you? :D

In one paragraph you just deescalated an entire thread--being too reasonable.

I can not find anything to object with you in this.

They seem pretty straight forward on the fact God forbid certain things very clearly, so who knows. Perhaps I am too simple and they really were promoting all night shenanigans involving the entire neighbourhood.

I like you.

Hey, and I also like your avatar too. Attractive photograph. And one not where you--or whoever is in it--takes themselves too serious.
 
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FireDragon76

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Western culture tends to read more sexual taboos into the Bible. Probably because many of the early, prominent Christian theologians in the Church had taken vows of celibacy (the Jerome quote is a good example).
 
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Dave-W

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Portions of the book can be read online for free:
Divine Sex
Interesting. I looked thru preview. It also had "suggestions" of several similar books which I also looked at. I may have to pick up one (or more) of them.

I am currently reading a book written by Orthodox Jewish rabbi Shmuley Boteach called "Kosher Lust." It addresses many of the same issues, but from a Hebrew Scripture (OT) and Jewish tradition perspective.

upload_2017-5-19_9-26-29.jpeg
 
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ClementofA

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I was not impressed with his scholarship. In contrast Flame Of Yahweh by Richard Davidson is far more thorough with extensive bibliographies and thorough exegesis.

Does the conservative "Flame Of Yahweh by Richard Davidson" prove wrong anything said in the liberal "Divine Sex..." by Philo Thelos? If so, please detail the arguments with quotes and page references.

Both books look like worthwhile reading. Here is a comment re "Flame of Yahweh":

"It was an unexpected disappointment, however, to see Davidson contradict this Edenic paradigm in an attempt to reconcile the egalitarian Eden with other wider biblical norms of sexuality that promote hierarchy. Davidson relinquishes his fascinating thesis and makes an unsatisfying attempt at reconciliation using Gen 3:16 as a key prop. Davidson claims that regardless of the Edenic paradigm the modern Christian marriage relationship is not to be fully egalitarian (76). Women, according to Davidson, must continue to play a non-egalitarian role with respect to their male marriage partner. Davidson’s argument (71–80) on this subject seems to lack the objectivity and consistency that he declares as the basis of his study, the “hermeneutic of consent” (3)."

See the complete review at:

Richard R. Davidson: FLAME OF YAHWEH: SEXUALITY AND THE OLD TESTAMENT
 
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Johnnz

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Like any book I may not agree with all of its contents. I most certainly disagree with Davidson's non-egalitarian views for example.

One example of my concerns with "Divine Sex' is Thelos's account of The Esther story which was unsupported by detailed references to other works establishing that Esther's naked dance was a cultural practice. Certainly the naked human body was more common in ancient times, but that does not establish that account in his book.

Sorry I can't provide more detail, but I have recently moved house and many of my books remain packed away. If I remember correctly Davidson's book has extensive references and was exegtically based whereas I did not find that with Thelos's tome.

John
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ClementofA

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I may take a look at Davidson's book.

In any case, as regards the value of sex in a Christian's life, even in marriage, it seems clear from this inspiration:

1 If, then, ye were raised with the Christ, the things above seek ye, where the Christ is, on the right hand of God seated, 2 the things above mind ye, not the things upon the earth, 3 for ye did die, and your life hath been hid with the Christ in God; 4 when the Christ — our life — may be manifested, then also we with him shall be manifested in glory.

5 Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth — .... uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry
 
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Johnnz

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I may take a look at Davidson's book.

In any case, as regards the value of sex in a Christian's life, even in marriage, it seems clear from this inspiration:

1 If, then, ye were raised with the Christ, the things above seek ye, where the Christ is, on the right hand of God seated, 2 the things above mind ye, not the things upon the earth, 3 for ye did die, and your life hath been hid with the Christ in God; 4 when the Christ — our life — may be manifested, then also we with him shall be manifested in glory.

5 Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth — .... uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry

Which view, if I understand correctly what you are saying, is pure paganism, a view of sex and our God- given capacities and functions, as something 'unclean', 'undesirable, less that the pure 'spiritual.'

John
NZ
 
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Dave-W

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Which view, if I understand correctly what you are saying, is pure paganism, a view of sex and our God- given capacities and functions, as something 'unclean', 'undesirable, less that the pure 'spiritual.'
That was the opinion of many of the Early Church Fathers. I think it was rooted in gnosticism.
 
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ClementofA

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Which view, if I understand correctly what you are saying, is pure paganism, a view of sex and our God- given capacities and functions, as something 'unclean', 'undesirable, less that the pure 'spiritual.'

IMO everything God has given man the "capacity" to do is not always righteous or holy, such as murder, orgies, gluttony, alcoholism, worship of "pagan" deities, for a few examples. Someone might find such things "desirable", but that doesn't make them "pure" or "spiritual".

1 John 2:15-16 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

1 Corinthians 7 " 1 Now, concerning what you write to me: It is ideal for a man not to be touching a woman." 2 Yet, because of prostitutions, let each man have a wife for himself and each woman have her own husband." 3 Let the husband render to the wife her due, yet likewise the wife also to the husband." 4 The wife has not the jurisdiction of her own body, but the husband, yet likewise the husband also has not the jurisdiction of his own body, but the wife." 5 Do not deprive one another, except sometime it should be by agreement for a period, that you should gave leisure for prayer, and you may be the same again, lest Satan may be trying you because of your incontinence." 6 Now this I am saying as a concession, not as an injunction." 7 For I want all men to be as I myself

Psalm 1: 1How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers! 2But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.
 
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Johnnz

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Sure I accept those biblcial standards too. But nothing in those verses places the negative stance you seem to have on normal human sexuality. Song of Songs is a anthem of praise to the expression of our God desinged human sexuality sexuality.

John
NZ
 
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ClementofA

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Sure I accept those biblcial standards too. But nothing in those verses places the negative stance you seem to have on normal human sexuality. Song of Songs is a anthem of praise to the expression of our God desinged human sexuality sexuality.

God doesn't forbid sex in marriage, but He doesn't want us worshiping it either.

IMO the NT verses are in contrast to that OT description of SS. Throughout history, BTW, SS has usually been understood by commentators as an allegory between God & Israel or Christ & the Church. Is SS ever quoted or referred to by the NT authors?
 
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Johnnz

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God doesn't forbid sex in marriage, but He doesn't want us worshiping it either.

Agree. Nor unduly denegrate it either.

IMO the NT verses are in contrast to that OT description of SS. Throughout history, BTW, SS has usually been understood by commentators as an allegory between God & Israel or Christ & the Church.

Nothing in the NT, understood without Greek glasses, opposes the OT view of human sexuality. The allegorical approach was adopted by church fathers because their Greek influenced thinking could not accept that Holy Writ could possibly be so obviously about sexual enjoyment. Protestant teaching has steadily abandoned the widespread allegorical teaching of earlier times. Its deficiencies became increasingly obvious upon careful examination of the OT text itself.

John
NZ
 
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ClementofA

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Nothing in the NT, understood without Greek glasses, opposes the OT view of human sexuality. The allegorical approach was adopted by church fathers because their Greek influenced thinking could not accept that Holy Writ could possibly be so obviously about sexual enjoyment. Protestant teaching has steadily abandoned the widespread allegorical teaching of earlier times. Its deficiencies became increasingly obvious upon careful examination of the OT text itself.

I think the NT would not approve certain OT sanctioned practices such as rape under particular conditions, stoning people to death for adultery, etc.

IMO people don't need the Song of Solomon to tell them sex is enjoyable. There is plenty of secular erotic poetry, sex-ed classes, internet inappropriate content, etc. Evidently dogs, cats, monkeys & other animals like doing it too.

How many wives & concubines did Solomon have? Over 1000? Would the NT approve of polygamy?

The problem with sex occurs when it is not edifying, you are under its power or sinning against your own body (1 Cor 6). Do all to the glory of God.

To Paul the prescription for curbing illicit sex & uncontrollable lusts was marriage (1 Cor.7). This chapter bears little resemblance to the Song of Solomon. Does any NT writer quote the SS, hint at its meaning or apply it to marriage? Is it even talking about a married couple?
 
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ClementofA

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2) If evidence has been found to disprove "professional religionists" in regards to human sexuality, then (a) why haven't I heard of this book before, and (b) why are those "professional religionists" not actively supporting or opposing the publication of this book or other evidence?

(a) Have you been looking? There are a number of Christian books on sex from a liberal perspective. Also online articles, debates & discussions on forums. Not hard to find with some google searching.

(b) They are. See (a).
 
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