Islam The worth of a woman

Bluerose31 · May 16, 2017

mindlight said:
In the Judaeo - Christian scriptures it is clear that God created male and female equal. It is a common insistence in Western secular society also that a man and a womans worth be regarded as equal.

Yet it is clear that this is not so obvious in Islam:

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Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.

Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they make more reliable witnesses.
Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"
Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands, if there is no water to purify them, following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).
Quran (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. (To be fair, men are told to do the same thing in the prior verse).
Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse. If this is what Muhammad meant, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).
Quran (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.
Quran (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.
Quran (4:24) and Quran (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).>>>>>>>

How can Muslims justify this apparent denigration of women?

A Woman Worth Less than a Man in Islam

There is some denigration of women in Christianity too. Such as 1 Timothy 2:12 “Let a woman learn in silence and full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to be silent." This shows that women are not to have authority even though they may have insightful and God inspired things to say. It is still hard to be female in Christianity because it is not equal treatment.

-Hannah- · May 16, 2017

Bluerose31 said:
There is some denigration of women in Christianity too. Such as 1 Timothy 2:12 “Let a woman learn in silence and full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to be silent." This shows that women are not to have authority even though they may have insightful and God inspired things to say. It is still hard to be female in Christianity because it is not equal treatment.

That excerpt you mentioned was written by Paul to Ephesus, which church had previously been invaded by false preachers who taught false doctrines. (1Timothy 1:3-4) Paul mentions that some women "have already turned aside to follow Satan" (1Timothy 1:15).

Bluerose31 said:
This shows that women are not to have authority even though they may have insightful and God inspired things to say

You are adding this background to the text. It wasn't that what Paul had in hands, when he was writing to Ephesus.
Paul mentions other women who had a voice and he didn't tell them to be silent; for instance: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."Romans 16:7, "The churches in the province of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Priscilla greet you warmly in the Lord, and so does the church that meets at their house." 1Chorintians 16:19, "My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you." 1Chorintians 1:11, according to those times, mentioning Chloe in this manner was an indicative that she was the leader of her house.

A person who has something wise to say will never be unnoticed. Men or women. Even if it might seem otherwise. It's our responsibility to listen, think, study, talk. It's not our responsibility if the interlocutor don't listen to us. He is free and so are we.

Muslim-UK · May 16, 2017

mindlight said:
Can be contrasted with the wife beating advocated in 4:34

" Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great."

As one Muslim once explained to me you can hit your wife but when you lift your arm to strike her you cannot take a big swing from behind the level of your shoulder.

Domestic violence in Islam : The Quran on wife-beating

Not sure what translation you appear to be using. 'High-handedness' being a odd choice of words for infidelity. Here's a better translation more true to the Arabic:

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel (strength) the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and GUARD in the husband’s absence what ALLAH ORDERS THEM TO GUARD. As to those women on whose part you SEE INFIDELITY (NUSHUZAHUNNA), admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them. Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.” – Quran 4:34

A western Scholar writes:

“An adult woman has many rights within Islam that were granted by the Qur’an and Hadith of Muhammad but for which Western women have had to fight in the twentieth century. Both men and women have an equal responsibility to follow the Islamic way of life (Q. 33.35). A Muslim woman is allowed to own property in her own right and dispose of it without reference to her husband. She normally keeps her own name after marriage. She is permitted to make her own will to dispose of her goods after death. She has an entitlement to education at all levels equal to that of a man. She is entitled to sexual fulfilment. She has a right to engage in any profession or business. She should be consulted in public affairs, following the example of Muhammad who habitually sought the opinion of some of the Muslim women before making a decision. She has the right to keep and control her earnings, it being the duty of the husband to meet all domestic expenditure, house his family and educate his children (Q. 4.34).

There are no grounds for her to be a domestic drudge, it technically being the husband’s duty to see that hot food is laid before his wife. The only duty laid upon a wife is to be open to bear children, should God bless them, and to nurse them when they are young, although even here a wet-nurse can be retained. These are of course the ideals as provided by Islamic law but the realities in Muslim families around the world do not always follow these prescriptions.

Reference is often made to the verse of the Qur’an that appears to allow a husband to beat his wife (Q. 4.34). The context here is one of nushuz, a violation of duties on the part of the religious wife. This verse of the Quran lays down four steps to be taken, which may be seen as a correction and limitation of pre-Islamic practices. First the man should speak to his wife. If this fails, he should then refuse sleep with her. Only if this fails to change her ways, is he allowed a kind of symbolic humiliation by striking her with his miswak, a piece of wood smaller than a pencil, the tip of which is used for brushing the teeth. Even this is considered inadvisable in some schools of Islam, and any form of cruelty, including verbal abuse, is unanimously forbidden. Should all this fail, then the couple should seek arbitration within the family.”(Understanding Islam: The First Ten Steps [Copyright 2006] by Dr. Chris T. R. Hewer, Allan Anderson page 129 – 130)

How are women accused of infidelity treated in the Bible? And does the following teaching explain marital violence and rape within some Christian households:

I Corinthians 7:3-4

3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
4 The WIFE DOES NOT HAVE authority over her own body but HER HUSBAND DOES.

Granted the verse goes on to say a woman has authority over a man's body, but clearly the man can do as he pleases, and when he pleases. Women are considered chattel and a woman is considered an adulteress if she decides t divorce an abusive husband.

Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
1 Cor 14:34-35 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

I have already explained terrorist groups are a law unto themselves and do not represent Muslims. In fact if you look at the instability they are causing by fracturing Countries into smaller provinces fighting one another, it very much looks like they are happily aiding the agenda of the enemies of Islam.

Germany has always had a problem with sex trafficking and violence against women partly due to its vile sex industry, so no point throwing stones from your glass house.

Are you going to answer on the issue of what Jesus pbuh taught about the afterlife, and have a meaningful exchange or are you really only interested in trying to score cheap meaningless points?

mindlight · May 16, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I thought I made it clear, a woman is able to work if she so chooses, and these days many do in all manner of jobs from shop assistants, teaching, sciences and medicine. The Prophet's first wife of 25 years had her own business and supported him, may GOD be pleased with her. Aisha ra was the first female Scholar of Islam following the Prophet's death and led an army into battle.

If men in some Countries have become too protective/controlling of their women, then that's an issue for that country/culture not Islam.

The reality is that female participation in the workforce is markedly lower in the Muslim heartlands of Northern Africa and Western Asia. Also many of these jobs are parttime. There is a clear connection between the religion and female opportunity.

You quote the example of Aisha who consumated her marriage with Mohammed aged 9-10!!

Actually no. The man to be witness has to be trustworthy, of sound mind and known to be fair.

But there are women who are far more sober minded than many men I know. Some women are idiots but others not. It should be assessed person by person not on the basis of gender.

Where are the Gospels written by the women of Jesus' time? Why does Saul rebuke women, why does Jesus pbuh ignore his mother, why does he insult the canaanite lady? What you type is quite different to the reality taught in the Bible.

No gospels are written by women and that is a marker of how God revealed himself to mankind as a man. To say that somehow denigrates women would be a mistake however. Luke for example is not the main witness to the events he describes in his gospel. He draws heavily from the witness of Mary the mother of Jesus. False teachers of both genders were rebuked by Paul and in certain contexts it is clear he regarded the cultures to be so broken as to prohibit female teachers of any sort.

Again more ill-informed comments. GOD hates divorce and believing men and women do not take it lightly. The level of divorce within Muslim families is minimal compared to Christian households. Muslim women also have the option of issuing a straight forward divorce if their husband is not treating them well, not providing etc. Ultimately barring physical and emotional abuse we are encouraged to overlook shortcomings in our partners and help one another to improve characteristics/manners and to obtain success both in this life and the hereafter.

God hates divorce in the Bible also. The level of divorce in the Muslim world is low but so also the stigma and consequence of divorce far more communal and therefore harder to endure. The balance in the West has swung to individualism and the community moderation of marital strife is missing. There is more personal freedom and more room to make bad choices.The levels of divorce in the Christian world today are a disgrace though personally I know very few genuine and mature Christians who initiated a divorce of their partner. Also I agree mercy and forgiveness should characterise a marriage. We agree on this but it is hard to square your words with the wife beating, child abuse and sex slavery that the Koran endorses

The population of the UK is 65 Million of which just under 3 Million are Muslims, of those just 7,000 choose to wear a burkha.

The burkha like the head shroud is just a symbol of the deeper theme of walling oneself off from a harsh world that you celebrated earlier. It is a symbol of non integration and separation not of modesty. also i cannot find a justification for it in the Koran.

You keep bringing crimes from immigrants as some sort of problem with Islam, and in truth it has nothing to do with it.

The incidents i referred to were real enough but are not my main experience of Muslim refugees here in Germany. I have enjoyed hanging out with these people who after all are mainly fleeing failed Muslim states and their pointless wars and have interesting albeit often tragic stories to tell.

FACTS ABOUT VIOLENCE

A religion born in violence? Do you know why revisionists question the Islamic narrative on how Islam came about, is because archaeology shows a distinct lack of violence as Islam spread. The fact Muslim armies had Jewish and Christian followers both in officer and rank and file level has led them to believe it started as a general believers movement under the banner of Monotheism and later identified itself as a distinct Islamic religion.

You started this post with reference to Aisha leading an army into battle incidentally in what would later grow into the Sunni and Shia conflict between Muslims. Earlier you referred to the fact that many women were widowed when their men died in battle as a justification for polytheism. The Koran itself speaks of battles.

However there is some credence to the view that Monarchist Christians, the Byzantine withdrawal after its overextension following the Persian wars and its use of proxies all played a role in Islams early expansion. Abu Malik for instance ruled what was at first a mainly Christian caliphate that he then pushed in an Islamic direction.

GillDouglas · May 16, 2017

The Brown Brink said:
My argument promotes the notion that women are "worth" MORE than men, due to their reproductive ability and social skills, which are absolute requirements for our species' survival.

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I needed that, thank you.

The world that we live in today screams for equality and fights the nature in which they were designed for. But as you know, being an enlightened daughter of our Creator, we are not of this world and we shouldn't allow the culture to dictate our beliefs regarding gender.

I think that many women have forgotten about the honor and joy that comes with being a woman. Woman in our society have been taught for so long now that it is the highest goal to be like man, no even worse, to erase all gender, that many have forgotten the beauty of our differences. The differences compliment each other, and two are better as one, and it's a godly example of Christ and the Church.

The Brown Brink · May 17, 2017

Women don't want to be like men.

Men are superfluous these days.

We can store sperm, you know.
We don't really need the man anymore.
Do we?

-Hannah- · May 17, 2017

The Brown Brink said:
Women don't want to be like men.

Men are superfluous these days.

We can store sperm, you know.
We don't really need the man anymore.
Do we?

That's a very superfluous logic. A good thing is that it's false.

Muslim-UK · May 17, 2017

mindlight said:
The reality is that female participation in the workforce is markedly lower in the Muslim heartlands of Northern Africa and Western Asia. Also many of these jobs are parttime. There is a clear connection between the religion and female opportunity.

That's because consumerism and big business hasn't been allowed to pressurise those countries to send their women out to work. No interest based mortgages that you have to work till 65+ to pay off, no pressure to change your car every 3 year to keep up with the neighbours, no pressure to give your children the latest gadget etc etc. People try to live simple lives and when they get old, their children are usually tasked with looking after them. Islam teaches people to view this life as a short journey, and to live it as if you were a traveller going through the journey with as little impact on the environment and precious resources as possible.

mindlight said:
You quote the example of Aisha who consumated her marriage with Mohammed aged 9-10!!

She still grew to become the first Scholar of Islam and defended the faith both intellectually and on the battlefield.

mindlight said:
But there are women who are far more sober minded than many men I know. Some women are idiots but others not. It should be assessed person by person not on the basis of gender.

The verse was revealed 1400 years ago and met the needs of the society of the time. These days business transactions are witnessed by Solicitors and everything is recorded.

mindlight said:
No gospels are written by women and that is a marker of how God revealed himself to mankind as a man. To say that somehow denigrates women would be a mistake however. Luke for example is not the main witness to the events he describes in his gospel. He draws heavily from the witness of Mary the mother of Jesus. False teachers of both genders were rebuked by Paul and in certain contexts it is clear he regarded the cultures to be so broken as to prohibit female teachers of any sort.

None of the Gospels are written by eyewitnesses. All are written by literate non Jews raised on Pagan beliefs, hence Jesus pbuh goes from Jewish son of God, meaning pious God fearing person to the one and only begotten Sun of God.

mindlight said:
Also I agree mercy and forgiveness should characterise a marriage. We agree on this but it is hard to square your words with the wife beating, child abuse and sex slavery that the Koran endorses

bring evidence rather than your opinions.

mindlight said:
The burkha like the head shroud is just a symbol of the deeper theme of walling oneself off from a harsh world that you celebrated earlier. It is a symbol of non integration and separation not of modesty. also i cannot find a justification for it in the Koran.

It comes from Hadiths and ultimately is for a woman to adopt or not. No different to any other woman who wishes to dye her hair, get tattooed or go out wearing what she wants.

mindlight said:
You started this post with reference to Aisha leading an army into battle incidentally in what would later grow into the Sunni and Shia conflict between Muslims. Earlier you referred to the fact that many women were widowed when their men died in battle as a justification for polytheism. The Koran itself speaks of battles.

Yes justice is a central theme in Islam. Christianity too was born in strife, but on the receiving end of Pagan aggression until of course the Romans made changes and embraced it as their State religion. Jesus pbuh remained passive during his short Ministry, but on his return will bring the Mother of all Wars with him to ensure justice and GOD's Law rules the World.

mindlight said:
However there is some credence to the view that Monarchist Christians, the Byzantine withdrawal after its overextension following the Persian wars and its use of proxies all played a role in Islams early expansion. Abu Malik for instance ruled what was at first a mainly Christian caliphate that he then pushed in an Islamic direction.

The Qur'an predicted the Romans and Persians would both be defeated and even gave a time frame. People mocked the verse, given the Muslims numbered a few thousand at the time compared to the vastly superior numbers of the Persians and Romans.

I think you are referring to Abd Malik the 5th Khalifa? The early followers of Islam were Pagan, Jews and Christians, an umbrella of Monotheistic believers and can in no way be described as a Christian Caliphate. That's just revisionist historians puzzling over how Islam spread so fast and the distinct lack of destruction to Churches and Synagogues.

The Brown Brink · May 17, 2017

-Hannah- said:
That's a very superfluous logic. A good thing is that it's false.

Tell me then...
Why do we need men?
What do they DO for us?
I'd like to gather some personal opinions.

-Hannah- · May 17, 2017

The Brown Brink said:
I'd like to gather some personal opinions.

That is a whole new thread, then.

As Humans living in these times, reproduction is the least important mission we have.

Muslim-UK · May 17, 2017

The Brown Brink said:
Tell me then...
Why do we need men?
What do they DO for us?
I'd like to gather some personal opinions.

Do you think GOD was mistaken when he created man? What about the whole life partner element, having someone there to share the highs and lows etc. As a married woman you must surely appreciate these elements and much more to boot. I agree women are resourceful, clever and more than capable of living without men, [in theory! Because if you take the reality of the interdependance between men and women, there would be a lot of psychological problems and dysfunction in society] but a World devoid of the other sex would seem deeply lonely. Even the biology factors - hormones, strength, attraction etc... environment, would be altered so dramatically as to impact negatively in terms of mental health, reproduction etc... ] As humans we crave human touch and company, which is why in times of disaster we put aside differences and come together to help.

You could ask, and answer all those questions in the reverse too - why don't we? And apply that to women, or any other species, or organic matter etc.

Personally, I think the question is strange, given that a majority of women do seek, marry and enjoy healthy lives with men. In the very many expressions of manhood as well. All men are not alike, all women are not alike. if you judge the entirety of man or woman based upon negative experiences, it is easy to become bitter and minimise the importance of the dynamics of men and women.

Another reason the question is fallacious, is quite honestly, it has a sinister undertone in the asking. Are you suggesting that we 'design' men out of the equation? shouldn't the genders seek a healthy reconciliation and look at a future that enables both sexes safe passage through time and place? I can't think of a world more banal than that of one gender, the only way it could possibly become even more depressing, is if you proposed clones...

I firmly believe, men & women were created to complement each other, the differences of gender abilities etc... are what makes mankind functional. The ever increasing changing laws and roles being redefined and denied, are what makes for a very dysfunctional landscape.

mindlight · May 17, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Please explain what Jesus pbuh himself taught about Heaven or list the verses, so I may go and have a read.

The intense joy and intimacy of GOD's presence is only available to those who obtain the highest heaven. The vast majority of believers will likely make it to just the lowest levels, and we will be the same person we were on Earth, but improved of course. We can discuss the realities of the afterlife once I've read what Christians have been taught about the soul's journey.

Sorry it has taken so long to get to this part of your post. We seem to have a line by line disagreement of perspective - still it makes you an interesting discussion partner and there is a lot of food for thought and also helpful corrections in your posts.

I will give some verses but would like to put them in some kind of responsive context for you also. One of the most remarkable things about Jesus was the ways in which he eliminated the dignity gap between high and low. Women, children, shepherds, lepers, Samaritans and others of low social status were embraced and loved by him. When he spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well he spoke with a woman who had been discarded by 4 men in 4 previous marriages and was now with a man who was not her husband. She was a Samaritan (a group of people despised by his compatriots) and she was a woman of shame yet he spoke to her as a person with the worth of someone made in Gods image and he transformed her life and that of the people of her village. When he spoke about the Kingdom of God he spoke in terms of a party for instance to which many were invited but many refused the invitations. So the host said to his servants to go out and find just about anybody who was willing to come. He spoke in terms of the coming of a bridegroom to his wedding. Some of the guests are prepared and others rush away to get ready and miss his arrival. He spoke in terms of something that starts as small as mustard seed and yet grows into a great tree. He spoke in terms of seeds sown by a farmer on different kinds of soil. Only the good soil produces the best crop. The kingdom of God is therefore something which by his presence on earth he made accessible to all. The bible speaks in terms of heaven and earth in the present order but with Christs incarnate presence on earth God comes to man. The final vision of a great city, a New Jerusalem coming down from heaven in a new heavens and a new earth in which God will dwell with man and all who know Him will dwell in his light and his presence. In our Fathers house are many mansions and Jesus has gone before us to prepare a place for us.

St Pauls experience of heaven was of a blinding light. Later he spoke in 1 Corinthians 13 of love but also of the ways in which we are currently quite blind. Now we see dimly but then we shall see plainly. Now we have a glimpse then we shall see fully. When the Israelites experienced Gods presence on Mount Sinai they feared the presence of God which was like a ferocious storm and earthquake all rolled into one. Moses face shone so brightly after standing in Gods presence that people could hardly bear to look at him. But in heaven there are creatures privileged to stand in the very presence of God acclaiming his Holiness. But with the arrival of Christ a way has been opened for all of us to stand in that presence without being destroyed by it. That God dwells in us allows us to stand with Him.

Interestingly in bible group tonight we discussed who now are "the least of these". Most people came up with poor people, immigrants etc. But in Germany we have a welfare state which deals with all basic needs so long as you are prepared to submit to the authorities to receive help. So my answer was atheists and Muslims both of whom are not in the Kingdom of God and who have no grounds for hope in the decrees of heaven and the hope of eternal life. God has a heart for Muslims and for the godless also. He has invited them to his party and they have an important choice about whether or not to turn up.

There is a lot of helpful verses in this link here. But my recommendation would be Revelation 4.

What Does the Bible say Heaven is Like?

Immigrants and now terrorist groups. Whatever next! You can't take US $ US weapons and training and decide you are a self declared Islamic State. It doesn't work like that and these terrorist groups will never prosper, as they do not represent Islam, which is why it is Muslims in the front lines fighting against them.

Refugees and Islamists are a product of the Muslim world. People running away from genocide initiated for "Muslim" reasons or interminable wars in the name of Islam cannot be simply dismissed as non Muslim. IS theologians are old school Islam with theological reasons for what they do. Both of us object to their extremism and the murders they commit in the name of God but this is more of a problem for you cause they call God Allah and quote the Quran to justify murder, rape and blasphemy.

You have a weird idea of what Muslim women must be like. Perhaps pop along to your local Mosque on a open day and ask to speak to the women, you could ask them a range of questions and gather their views on issues where you feel they are being 'dominated' by the men. I'm sure the responses will be quite the wake up call for you.

Muslim men and women and children come to our church for games evenings and this provides opportunity for conversation. Normally the women do not speak with men but rather only women there but I have had a few conversations. I have Muslim neighbours also with whom I speak. But in Germany Muslims are either refugees from extreme situations or moderate and rather compromised Turks who drink beer and eat sausage and have tattoos. I went to mosque several times in the UK to share the gospel and talk to the Imam. It is possible to have a human connection and indeed to respect their zeal for God while considering them entirely deluded about the substance of most of what they say.

But most Muslim women I know do not have proper jobs and have more kids than most Germans. One Christian in bible group tonight wants to see all Muslims deported cause he thinks that the refugees are an "invasion force". I welcome them as a corrective to the more serious problem of godlessness and sterility afflicting Germany. Muslim women have babies , many of whom will become Christians and that is valuable in the context of German demographic decline and at least Muslims talk about God. But I have no fear of Islam dominating Germany because German Christians already have something better and German liberals will never be able to reconcile the demand for submission to Sharia law with the freewill they value above all else.

What can a women do in the West that she can't in the Muslim World?

Well outside certain privileged oil rich families and royal families most Muslims do not have the quality of education, health care, infrastructure, job opportunities or personal freedom.

I'm pleased you sound so upbeat and positive about the state of Christianity, however in the real World Christianity is seen as a spent force. Sure Politicians like to appeal to the Christian vote in some Countries where it still relatively holds some weight, (eg Bible belt of America). Here in Europe people who confess to being Christian are viewed as being somehow lacking and tend to keep their beliefs quiet. Here in the UK a meet Christians who are so in name only and have idea what Christian Doctrine actually is. A quick look through the subforums on this site shows people are scared and worried about being saved and if the church they're attending is the right one. Quite often no 2 Christians are in agreement on core issues, but anyway that's of no concern for me and a soul seeking truth will never be stopped from finding the right path eventually.

Christianity has added more believers globally in the last 100 years than has Islam. It continues to grow. The compassionate example of Jesus caring for the sick , poor and outcasts has largely won the day in the west with a welfare state that cares for people regardless of background. It was Christians that first set up care for lepers, hospitals, hospices and it was Christian monasteries from which the universities and schools of the modern era was inspired. It was we who abolished slavery, who gave women the vote, who reformed child labour laws...

A great many people in the West assume a Christian agenda without even knowing what they are doing.

The problems today in the West are to do with psychological ill health, spiritual emptiness or confusion and the dissolution of real worthwhile human connections in the stress and pressure of a world with more and more choices and demands. Islam has no real answers to these issues. But so also many Christians will need a fuller appreciation of the entirety of scripture referring as it does to salvation, stewardship, righteousness, honesty, excellence as well as to compassion. Mass global migrations from failed Muslim states is in tension with new innovations in robotic technologies which may reduce the demand for low paid workers in the long run. New and emerging possibilities of global and regional nuclear conflagrations ( maybe even initiated by Islamist zealots) are all dilemmas of the modern world. But Islam is not the solution in most Westerners eyes, it is the problem they seek to solve.

Muslim-UK · May 18, 2017

mindlight said:
Sorry it has taken so long to get to this part of your post. We seem to have a line by line disagreement of perspective - still it makes you an interesting discussion partner and there is a lot of food for thought and also helpful corrections in your posts.

I'm pleased to hear you have an open mind and willingness to hear the other side.

mindlight said:
I will give some verses but would like to put them in some kind of responsive context for you also. One of the most remarkable things about Jesus was the ways in which he eliminated the dignity gap between high and low. Women, children, shepherds, lepers, Samaritans and others of low social status were embraced and loved by him. When he spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well he spoke with a woman who had been discarded by 4 men in 4 previous marriages and was now with a man who was not her husband. She was a Samaritan (a group of people despised by his compatriots) and she was a woman of shame yet he spoke to her as a person with the worth of someone made in Gods image and he transformed her life and that of the people of her village. When he spoke about the Kingdom of God he spoke in terms of a party for instance to which many were invited but many refused the invitations. So the host said to his servants to go out and find just about anybody who was willing to come. He spoke in terms of the coming of a bridegroom to his wedding. Some of the guests are prepared and others rush away to get ready and miss his arrival. He spoke in terms of something that starts as small as mustard seed and yet grows into a great tree. He spoke in terms of seeds sown by a farmer on different kinds of soil. Only the good soil produces the best crop.

Calling someone a dog, which back then was a terrible insult is hardly the way for a Prophet of GOD to speak to someone made in God's image, (likely the anonymous writer was citing hearsay as Prophets are sinless and God fearing), but yes he did indeed transform her life and that of her community.

Messengers of GOD are usually rejected by the well off and rich, rejected by those in positions of power and influence; it's the poor, the downtrodden and weak that are drawn to them. They are the ones who see hope and the prospects of a better future; a reason to continue in their daily struggles knowing ultimate success will be theirs. As you say many are invited, but few take up the invitation; as the Messenger gains new converts and the message spreads, then comes the power struggle from those who sense a serious challenge to their corrupt way of life. The Message prevails and the masses flock to grab their invites. This goes on for sometime, Decades or even Centuries pass by before a falling away takes serious hold and so, fast forward to the present era with many having little regard for the invite and are instead enjoying their 'heaven' right here with their family, nice home, good job etc This shows justice on God's part, so let no one argue when they return to him for final judgement.

mindlight said:
The kingdom of God is therefore something which by his presence on earth he made accessible to all. The bible speaks in terms of heaven and earth in the present order but with Christs incarnate presence on earth God comes to man. The final vision of a great city, a New Jerusalem coming down from heaven in a new heavens and a new earth in which God will dwell with man and all who know Him will dwell in his light and his presence. In our Fathers house are many mansions and Jesus has gone before us to prepare a place for us.

From the link you provided this new Jerusalem coming from Heaven is cloaked in mystery and open to interpretation. Perhaps this will be the city for the 144,000 promised Heaven from the 12 Tribes. God knows best.

mindlight said:
St Pauls experience of heaven was of a blinding light.

Yes Luke is said to have written about it, but strangely gives 3 separate conflicting accounts of what happened. Muslims generally regard Paul as the Trojan horse who infiltrated Christianity to benefit his paymasters. Ultimately we don't know for sure given the original letters are lost and what we have today have been shown to be mired in controversy with editing and interpolations. 2 Corinthians is said to be up to 5 separate letters edited and put together to form a single letter.

mindlight said:
Later he spoke in 1 Corinthians 13 of love but also of the ways in which we are currently quite blind. Now we see dimly but then we shall see plainly. Now we have a glimpse then we shall see fully. When the Israelites experienced Gods presence on Mount Sinai they feared the presence of God which was like a ferocious storm and earthquake all rolled into one. Moses face shone so brightly after standing in Gods presence that people could hardly bear to look at him. But in heaven there are creatures privileged to stand in the very presence of God acclaiming his Holiness. But with the arrival of Christ a way has been opened for all of us to stand in that presence without being destroyed by it. That God dwells in us allows us to stand with Him.

Yes our Earthly bodies couldn't for a second stand in God's presence without being destroyed on the spot. After death we will all be able to stand before the ultimate Judge, either with blissful light faces who accepted the invites or with severe stress and anguish evident for all to see as we realise the Earthly Heaven we enjoyed for 80+ years (hopefully) was in reality a couple of days of enjoyment.

mindlight said:
Interestingly in bible group tonight we discussed who now are the least of these. Most people came up with poor people, immigrants etc. But in Germany we have a welfare state which deals with all basic needs so long as you are prepared to submit to the authorities to receive help. So my answer was atheists and Muslims both of whom are not in the Kingdom of God and who have no grounds for hope in the decrees of heaven and the hope of eternal life. God has a heart for Muslims and for the godless also. He has invited them to his party and they have an important choice about whether or not to turn up.

Don't worry about Muslims; those who practice their faith will God willing have nothing to fear. The only unforgivable sin in Islam is ascribing partners unto God; you know like turning the Messenger into a God and giving him worship. This is why the final Messenger of God made clear he wanted a simple grave and forbade us from turning it into any sort of shrine. After his death, a close Companion Abu Bakr made a announcement;

Abu Bakr praised and glorified Allah and said, No doubt! Whoever worshipped Muhammad, then Muhammad is dead, but whoever worshipped Allah, then Allah is Alive and shall never die." Then he recited Allah's Statement.:-- "(O Muhammad) Verily you will die, and they also will die." (39.30) He also recited:--

"Muhammad is no more than an Apostle; and indeed many Apostles have passed away, before him, If he dies Or is killed, will you then Turn back on your heels? And he who turns back On his heels, not the least Harm will he do to Allah And Allah will give reward to those Who are grateful." (3.144)

mindlight said:
There is a lot of helpful verses in this link here.

What Does the Bible say Heaven is Like?

The writer errs in saying Hell is a one way ticket. Does this come from the Bible and if so, does it come from Jesus pbuh himself or a secondary source?

Islam teaches Millions will be plucked out from Heaven. The worst of mankind (pharaoh and other despots who come to mind) will never escape it with some souls being completely destroyed. Amazing given that energy is said to be indestructible according to human knowledge and understanding.

mindlight said:
Refugees and Islamists are a product of the Muslim world. People running away from genocide initiated for "Muslim" reasons or interminable wars in the name of Islam cannot be simply dismissed as non Muslim. IS theologians are old school Islam with theological reasons for what they do. Both of us object to their extremism and the murders they commit in the name of God but this is more of a problem for you cause they call God Allah and quote the Quran to justify murder, rape and blasphemy.

IS theologians? Muslim Scholars of authority, who are collectively known as the Ulema have labelled them unIslamic an warned people from joining them, so they can try to misalign Islam all they wish, but their efforts will end in failure.

mindlight said:
Muslim men and women and children come to our church for games evenings and this provides opportunity for conversation. Normally the women do not speak with men but rather only women there but I have had a few conversations. I have Muslim neighbours also with whom I speak. But in Germany Muslims are either refugees from extreme situations or moderate and rather compromised Turks who drink beer and eat sausage and have tattoos.

Well Turkey is widely regarded as being a Secular Country. The headscarf was banned not that long ago. Perhaps this goes some way to explain the high rate of rape you mentioned in a previous post. Luckily for Turkey the present administration is Religiously inclined, so there's hope yet.

mindlight said:
I went to mosque several times in the UK to share the gospel and talk to the Imam. It is possible to have a human connection and indeed to respect their zeal for God while considering them entirely deluded about the substance of most of what they say.

Yes I can see you consider Muslims deluded, but isn't it strange, when the 2 faiths are examined in detail, it's actually Christianity which proves to be illogical and flawed, starting with the very basic fundamental understanding of who GOD is, something key to any religion claiming to hold truth. Christians are forced to acknowledge God is a mystery beyond their understanding, forgetting Scripture is revealed so mankind can understand some of the attributes of God and come to know what He expects from us, not be left in a state of further confusion.

mindlight said:
But most Muslim women I know do not have proper jobs and have more kids than most Germans. One Christian in bible group tonight wants to see all Muslims deported cause he thinks that the refugees are an "invasion force". I welcome them as a corrective to the more serious problem of godless and sterility afflicting German. Muslim women have babies , many of whom will become Christians and that is valuable in the context of German demographic decline and at least Muslims talk about God.

At least you are able to see past the fear mongering and understand why European leaders need immigrants to address the problems of declining populations.

mindlight said:
But I have no fear of Islam dominating Germany because German Christians already have something better and German liberals will never be able to reconcile the demand for submission to Sharia law with the freewill they value above all else.

The fear over Shariah Law is blown out of proportion. We have Shariah Courts here in the UK and they deal with family and business matters. There is no call for criminal cases to be tried by Shariah Law, that would be preposterous and only but a tiny minority of extremists call for such a thing. That minority is shunned by every Mosque here in the UK.

mindlight said:
Well outside certain privileged oil rich families and royal families most Muslims do not have the quality of education, health care, infrastructure, job opportunities or personal freedom.

Most Muslims you say. I disagree as outside of a few Countries, which don't view education as important, Afghanistan for example, the majority of Muslims do have access to Education, Jobs and opportunities. Granted it may not be on par with opportunities in Europe, but would you really welcome a World of 7 Billion people all depleting natural resources, stripping the forests of the world and adding to climate change? I'm sure big business would love the idea. They could all be fed on processed GM foods, have them queuing for pills to counter the adverse effects to health, and mental wellbeing.

Travel to a Muslim Country and you will find they are amongst the happiest, content and kind people anywhere in the World. A people who would be happy to share their only meal of the day with a total stranger. There's a direct correlation between perceived wealth and quality of life in the West to a greater falling away from spirituality.

Who in your opinion will have success in the true life to come; will it be the poor who you view to be shackled and disadvantaged compared to their Western counterparts or the reasonably well off in the West who by and large shun God for a limited Heaven on Earth?

mindlight said:
Christianity has added more believers globally in the last 100 years than has Islam. It continues to grow.

Hardly surprising considering zero effort is required. Spend decades of your life kidding yourself as you go from Church to Church looking for the elusive Holy Spirit and a pastor preaching something you can relate to, and if that fails just make it up as you go along. You could subscribe to a YouTube Ministry being 'guided' by a higher being advocating New Age Mysticism blended with a flavour of Christianity.

mindlight said:
The compassionate example of Jesus caring for the sick , poor and outcasts has largely won the day in the west with a welfare state that cares for people regardless of background. It was Christians that first set up care for lepers, hospitals, hospices and it was Christian monasteries from which the universities and schools of the modern era was inspired. It was we who abolished slavery, who gave women the vote, who reformed child labour laws...

Islam did all those things too, just study the life of the prophet pbuh and the 500 years of the Golden era.

mindlight said:
A great many people in the West assume a Christian agenda without even knowing what they are doing.

The problems today in the West are to do with psychological ill health, spiritual emptiness or confusion and the dissolution of real worthwhile human connections in the stress and pressure of a world with more and more choices and demands. Islam has no real answers to these issues.

Islam says don't chance the World, try to be content and worship GOD, then you will find the World will come running to you. By connecting to GOD as we do throughout the day, 5 fixed prayers and personal remembrance of Allah swt brings spiritual happiness and a real purpose to life. One that fills a deep inner need all humans have.

mindlight said:
But so also many Christians will need a fuller appreciation of the entirety of scripture referring as it does to salvation, stewardship, righteousness, honesty, excellence as well as to compassion.

Atheists and people of other beliefs too are righteous, honest and compassionate. It's not something that only Christians are able to offer. Go and read the comment sections of YT videos on religion and you will see Christians often have the foulest things to say in exchanges with people of other faiths, perhaps in part due to lack of moderation. Still it shows the spirit residing within is perhaps not as 'holy' as they claim.

mindlight said:
Mass global migrations from failed Muslim states is in tension with new innovations in robotic technologies which may reduce the demand for low paid workers in the long run. New and emerging possibilities of global and regional nuclear conflagrations ( maybe even initiated by Islamist zealots) are all dilemmas of the modern world. But Islam is not the solution in most Westerners eyes, it is the problem they seek to solve.

Sounds good, rise of robots to take away low and middle class jobs, falling populations, alternative energy sources and perhaps in a few hundred years, no one will bother with what Muslims are doing in the East and leave them in peace to choose their own leaders. You should be reminded that it was the West that developed and used weapons of mass destruction to devastating effect on unarmed people.

mindlight · May 20, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I'm pleased to hear you have an open mind and willingness to hear the other side.

Your post was disarmingly nice, but the differences between us are significant and need to be articulated. This is not a place for relationship but rather for the honest discussion of ideas and faith.

Calling someone a dog, which back then was a terrible insult is hardly the way for a Prophet of GOD to speak to someone made in God's image, (likely the anonymous writer was citing hearsay as Prophets are sinless and God fearing), but yes he did indeed transform her life and that of her community.

Your are talking about Jesus engagement with the Canaanite woman. Matthew 15:21-28

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

It shows a misunderstanding of the passage to just quote v 26. This was the racist sentiment of the Jews of the day towards Canaanites but it was not Jesus perspective of this woman. He used the commonplace phrase/sentiment to test the woman's faith. His final words to her are an affirmation of her as a woman and a person of faith. He healed her daughter.

Messengers of GOD are usually rejected by the well off and rich, rejected by those in positions of power and influence; it's the poor, the downtrodden and weak that are drawn to them. They are the ones who see hope and the prospects of a better future; a reason to continue in their daily struggles knowing ultimate success will be theirs. As you say many are invited, but few take up the invitation; as the Messenger gains new converts and the message spreads, then comes the power struggle from those who sense a serious challenge to their corrupt way of life. The Message prevails and the masses flock to grab their invites. This goes on for sometime, Decades or even Centuries pass by before a falling away takes serious hold and so, fast forward to the present era with many having little regard for the invite and are instead enjoying their 'heaven' right here with their family, nice home, good job etc This shows justice on God's part, so let no one argue when they return to him for final judgement.

I agree with the sentiments of this response. But unlike is claimed for Mohammed Jesus was not merely a Messenger of God but rather God incarnate on earth with us. The message of Christianity is not that God sent a servant to turn his people back to Him. He did that with the prophets and with the figures of the Old Testament to no avail. In Jesus God Himself comes to man and bridges the gap between heaven and earth.. Christians know that God loves us because God Himself endured our finitude and smallness in a world that had fallen away from the goodness he originally endowed it with.

From the link you provided this new Jerusalem coming from Heaven is cloaked in mystery and open to interpretation. Perhaps this will be the city for the 144,000 promised Heaven from the 12 Tribes. God knows best.

There is a lot of controversy and discussion about the 144000 but the dimensions of the New Jerusalem could accommodate a population of billions not just thousands. There are those in Christianity who tend towards elitism and the view that only a special few will stand close. But God is bigger than their conception allows and dwells inside His people as well as on a throne towards which they turn to worship Him.

Yes Luke is said to have written about it, but strangely gives 3 separate conflicting accounts of what happened.

Luke wrote Luke and Acts and No he does not present conflicting accounts.

Muslims generally regard Paul as the Trojan horse who infiltrated Christianity to benefit his paymasters. Ultimately we don't know for sure given the original letters are lost and what we have today have been shown to be mired in controversy with editing and interpolations. 2 Corinthians is said to be up to 5 separate letters edited and put together to form a single letter.

Don't listen to the liberals on this one. The letters ascribed to Paul were written by Him and do not conflict in any serious way with the message of the gospels.

Yes our Earthly bodies couldn't for a second stand in God's presence without being destroyed on the spot. After death we will all be able to stand before the ultimate Judge, either with blissful light faces who accepted the invites or with severe stress and anguish evident for all to see as we realise the Earthly Heaven we enjoyed for 80+ years (hopefully) was in reality a couple of days of enjoyment.

Again this life is not all important and it is always tragic to see a godless person who thinks that this is all there is die. They cling on to life with a desperation that robs their final moments of dignity and peace. I have no such fear of death cause God in Christ went there before me and cleared a path for me to return to life via the resurrection. Why would a Muslim have confidence or peace in the face of death. There is no guarantee of Gods favour for a Muslim believer, no promise of eternal salvation that is not conditional on some kind of judgment of their life's works or supreme sacrifice. There is always the chance however fine a life a Muslim lives that is was just not enough. The difference between justification by faith and justification by works basically

Don't worry about Muslims; those who practice their faith will God willing have nothing to fear. The only unforgivable sin in Islam is ascribing partners unto God; you know like turning the Messenger into a God and giving him worship. This is why the final Messenger of God made clear he wanted a simple grave and forbade us from turning it into any sort of shrine. After his death, a close Companion Abu Bakr made a announcement;

Abu Bakr praised and glorified Allah and said, No doubt! Whoever worshipped Muhammad, then Muhammad is dead, but whoever worshipped Allah, then Allah is Alive and shall never die." Then he recited Allah's Statement.:-- "(O Muhammad) Verily you will die, and they also will die." (39.30) He also recited:--

"Muhammad is no more than an Apostle; and indeed many Apostles have passed away, before him, If he dies Or is killed, will you then Turn back on your heels? And he who turns back On his heels, not the least Harm will he do to Allah And Allah will give reward to those Who are grateful." (3.144)

Well then our views on Jesus separate us because I cannot regard Him as a mere messenger. He has not left that option open to us in his life and the claims he made. This is no mere prophet He is the Son of God, Second member of the Trinity. More importantly no discussion of final worth can avoid the fact that salvation is through Him alone. There is no other name in heaven and on earth by which a person can be saved. So I do worry about Muslims cause they fervently worship what they do not know and the godless because they are indifferent to the only thing that really matters in this life.

The writer errs in saying Hell is a one way ticket. Does this come from the Bible and if so, does it come from Jesus pbuh himself or a secondary source?

Catholics believe in a place called purgatory. Here people who were not completely wicked go to burn off their sins before graduating to heaven. Only the worst of sinners in this view go straight to hell. I and most bible believing Protestants think the overall message of scriptures speak only of heaven and hell and that an unbridgeable gulf has been fixed between the 2. A man lives once and then he faces judgment.

Luke 16:19-31
Revelation 20:7-15

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Muslim-UK · May 20, 2017

mindlight said:
I agree with the sentiments of this response. But unlike is claimed for Mohammed Jesus was not merely a Messenger of God but rather God incarnate on earth with us.

You can not show this as a teaching from Jesus pbuh himself. The Dead Sea Scrolls show followers of Jesus pbuh had no clue about death on a cross, resurrection or a God incarnate. A study of early Church History and Canonisation of the Bible shows disagreements, anonymous books and clear evidence of editing and additions.

Christians choose to brush these matters off and thus have a strong 'belief' system. Muslims have evidence, which we hold in our hands today and a concept of GOD which we can easily identify with and evident in the writings of Jewish Scriptures. Blind following is forbidden in Islam, and so with the problems laid out we will always disagree on core issues that effect our eternal souls.

mindlight said:
The message of Christianity is not that God sent a servant to turn his people back to Him. He did that with the prophets and with the figures of the Old Testament to no avail. In Jesus God Himself comes to man and bridges the gap between heaven and earth.. Christians know that God loves us because God Himself endured our finitude and smallness in a world that had fallen away from the goodness he originally endowed it with.

The amount of sin in the Christian World has gone up since Jesus pbuh returned to God. Confusion has increased and many are being led astray.

God is easy to understand, though we may not fully ever be able to comprehend his Majesty, we are told repent and turn back to Him for forgiveness. There is no salvation found in the blood of an innocent human being. God hates human sacrifice and has no need for it. Faith in God, works and deeds is what matters to benefit us in the hereafter.

mindlight said:
There is a lot of controversy and discussion about the 144000 but the dimensions of the New Jerusalem could accommodate a population of billions not just thousands. There are those in Christianity who tend towards elitism and the view that only a special few will stand close. But God is bigger than their conception allows and dwells inside His people as well as on a throne towards which they turn to worship Him.

over 100 Billion people have lived on Earth since the creation of Homo sapiens. Christians hold this Earth itself will be made new and this is where the new Heaven is. Looks like it's going to be quite a crowded place. Where's Hell in this equation?

mindlight said:
Luke wrote Luke and Acts and No he does not present conflicting accounts.

Disagreed and here's why:

Version One:

Acts 9:3-17: "…[Saul] was approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, `Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?'…The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one. Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. For three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.…there was a…disciple at Damascus named Ananias…laid his hands on Saul and said, `Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on your way here, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 9:3-17 or Acts 22:6-21 or Acts 26:12-18

Version Two:

Acts 22:6-21: "While I was…approaching Damascus…a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying…Saul,Saul, why are you persecuting me?...those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice…I could not see because of the brightness of the light…those with me…led me to Damascus…Ananias, who was a devout man according to the law and well spoken of by all the Jews living there…said…get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name."

Version Three:

Acts 26:12-18: "…I was traveling to Damascus…I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and my companions. When we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, `Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It hurts you to kick against the goads…the Lord answered, `I am Jesus whom you are persecuting…get up and stand on your feet…"

Which Version is the reader to believe? Saul alone fell to the ground; those with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one; Saul was without sight for three days; Ananias was a disciple who laid hands on Saul to restore his sight and fill him with the Holy Spirit.

Or

Saul alone fell to the ground; Those with him saw the light but did not hear the voice; No mention of three days without sight or food; Ananias was "a devout man according to the Law and liked by the Jews."

Or

Everyone fell to the ground; the voice spoke in the Hebrew Language; no blindness, no Ananias, no baptism, no restoration of sight, no “filled by Holy Spirit”!

Remember: Luke wrote all three of these accounts as you agreed.

mindlight said:
Don't listen to the liberals on this one. The letters ascribed to Paul were written by Him and do not conflict in any serious way with the message of the gospels.

Paul was at loggerheads with the Disciples in Jerusalem. Remember he was a Pharisee from the tribe of Benjamite, and Jesus pbuh rebuked the Pharisees in the strongest terms possible. There are many websites and threads found on this forum discussing who Paul really was, and what his intention was. It's not for me to lay out every charge against the man, suffice to say he taught salvation by grace, yet the final book of the Bible, Revelation clearly shows the day of Judgement features Scales and Books of deeds.

mindlight said:
I have no such fear of death cause God in Christ went there before me and cleared a path for me to return to life via the resurrection. Why would a Muslim have confidence or peace in the face of death. There is no guarantee of Gods favour for a Muslim believer, no promise of eternal salvation that is not conditional on some kind of judgment of their life's works or supreme sacrifice. There is always the chance however fine a life a Muslim lives that is was just not enough. The difference between justification by faith and justification by works basically

The Final Messenger of Allah swt explained we are all born with several unseen entities. amongst them are 2 Angels; 1 sits on the left and the other on the right shoulder. They record your deeds, be they good or bad. After death you are escorted to the gates of Paradise where you will either be handed your record in your left or right hand and returned to your grave to await Judgement. No one has returned to provide evidence of the unseen, but people have had Near Death Experiences, one of which was a non practising Jewish man. He returned and is now a devout Jew, and I mention him as it shows no bias for Islam. Watch his testimony or at least the first 45 mins:

mindlight said:
Well then our views on Jesus separate us because I cannot regard Him as a mere messenger. He has not left that option open to us in his life and the claims he made. This is no mere prophet He is the Son of God, Second member of the Trinity. More importantly no discussion of final worth can avoid the fact that salvation is through Him alone. There is no other name in heaven and on earth by which a person can be saved. So I do worry about Muslims cause they fervently worship what they do not know and the godless because they are indifferent to the only thing that really matters in this life.

For every verse said to allegedly be the words from the lips of Jesus pbuh, there are ample verses showing he is was a man and in no way divine. So ultimately as stated above it's purely a matter of faith on your part.

mindlight said:
Catholics believe in a place called purgatory. Here people who were not completely wicked go to burn off their sins before graduating to heaven. Only the worst of sinners in this view go straight to hell. I and most bible believing Protestants think the overall message of scriptures speak only of heaven and hell and that an unbridgeable gulf has been fixed between the 2. A man lives once and then he faces judgment.

I agree in part with the Catholic position and God makes clear in the Qur'an, those who ascribe partners unto Him will be amongst the losers.

mindlight said:
Luke 16:19-31
Revelation 20:7-15

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Same in Islam, so we are in agreement on this.

mindlight said:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Click to expand...

I see judgement according to faith and works in support of the Islamic position. Also notice the Earth and the Heavens fled from his presence. Muslims are taught this includes all the planets turning to dust, and the Angels too will cease to be any more.

Revelation 6:5
The Lamb opened the third seal. Then I heard the third living being say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse. The rider on the horse held a pair of scales in his hand.

Clearly faith alone is not enough, and certainly not faith in a belief that does not stand up to Historical or Theological scrutiny.

Truth stands clear from falsehood, even the animal Kingdom recognise God's words and react positively:

May God guide you to the truth.
Peace

mindlight · May 20, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Islam teaches Millions will be plucked out from Heaven. The worst of mankind (pharaoh and other despots who come to mind) will never escape it with some souls being completely destroyed. Amazing given that energy is said to be indestructible according to human knowledge and understanding.

There are Christians who believe in annihilation. I believe that we endure whether in Gods presence or in hell forever. The stakes of this life are very high. Annihilation is not that scary to me, not that I would want to be on the wrong side of God anyway.

IS theologians? Muslim Scholars of authority, who are collectively known as the Ulema have labelled them unIslamic an warned people from joining them, so they can try to misalign Islam all they wish, but their efforts will end in failure.

Well we agree that their efforts will probably end in failure but no thanks to the surrounding Sunni nations. Saudia Arabia shares the same Salafist jihadi outlook and has been buying sex slaves and sending cash to support them and is not unhappy about an Iraq and Syria at war with itself. Turkey has been doing its best to sabotage the efforts of those fighting IS most effectively e.g. the Kurds. Iraq arguably caused the rise of IS in the first place by its Shia governments incompetence in handling relationships with its Sunni citizens.

Well Turkey is widely regarded as being a Secular Country. The headscarf was banned not that long ago. Perhaps this goes some way to explain the high rate of rape you mentioned in a previous post. Luckily for Turkey the present administration is Religiously inclined, so there's hope yet.

Turkey is overwhelmingly Sunni by faith and an islamist direction does not bode well for female freedoms in the country. Many of these rapes occur within marriages so headscarves have little to do with this.

Yes I can see you consider Muslims deluded, but isn't it strange, when the 2 faiths are examined in detail, it's actually Christianity which proves to be illogical and flawed, starting with the very basic fundamental understanding of who GOD is, something key to any religion claiming to hold truth. Christians are forced to acknowledge God is a mystery beyond their understanding, forgetting Scripture is revealed so mankind can understand some of the attributes of God and come to know what He expects from us, not be left in a state of further confusion.

It requires grace to understand who God is. Logically there is no better way for God to explain who He is than by becoming one of us and dwelling amongst us. This is what Christ did.

At least you are able to see past the fear mongering and understand why European leaders need immigrants to address the problems of declining populations.

Yes agreed the fear mongering is just stupid and I welcome Muslims to Europe because I have no fear of them and Europe actually needs them to correct a demographic imbalance and a culture that has sponsored such a lack of fertility.

The fear over Shariah Law is blown out of proportion. We have Shariah Courts here in the UK and they deal with family and business matters. There is no call for criminal cases to be tried by Shariah Law, that would be preposterous and only but a tiny minority of extremists call for such a thing. That minority is shunned by every Mosque here in the UK.

Islam is weak in the UK. So you do not insist on Sharia. But Muslim majority countries have no qualms imposing it on people who are not Muslims.

Most Muslims you say. I disagree as outside of a few Countries, which don't view education as important, Afghanistan for example, the majority of Muslims do have access to Education, Jobs and opportunities. Granted it may not be on par with opportunities in Europe, but would you really welcome a World of 7 Billion people all depleting natural resources, stripping the forests of the world and adding to climate change? I'm sure big business would love the idea. They could all be fed on processed GM foods, have them queuing for pills to counter the adverse effects to health, and mental wellbeing.

Quality of life and available choices are far lower in Muslim countries. That is just a fact. GM foods and innovations are not all wrong and should be taken case by case. There is hope in these for resolving nutritional needs in emerging nations with oversized populations. Europe has added forest over the last 50 years and so is reversing the trends you speak of. Big Pharma needs to be challenged and especially its cost structures but the situation in Europe is more balanced than in the USA and good comprehensive health care is available here.

Travel to a Muslim Country and you will find they are amongst the happiest, content and kind people anywhere in the World. A people who would be happy to share their only meal of the day with a total stranger. There's a direct correlation between perceived wealth and quality of life in the West to a greater falling away from spirituality.

Not all Westerners have lost sight of God and not all of them are spiritually empty. But in Europe this is a growing issue. In practice possibly the most Christian of all continents , the one most transformed in its basic institutions by Christianity has forgotten its first love and is increasingly devoid of spiritual sense. The true church remains however on this continent and all hope is not yet lost. But wealth is not so much the reason as faulty thinking. Educational and media institutions have been hijacked by people devoid of wisdom and spirituality and they in turn have warped peoples minds even further. Europe has had 70 years of nearly uninterrupted peace and arguably has grown soft, overly comfortable and decadent. We are overdue for a revival but it hard to say if the continent has yet hit rock bottom.

Who in your opinion will have success in the true life to come; will it be the poor who you view to be shackled and disadvantaged compared to their Western counterparts or the reasonably well off in the West who by and large shun God for a limited Heaven on Earth?

The church is now mainly non Western and the bulk of the church are poor around the world. African and Asian congregations have blossomed and prosperity has followed but living standards are still far lower in the non Western church. Personally I think the West is in for a shock as it has forgotten the reasons for its success and the ways in which even its worst excesses were once forgiven and excused. In the life to come wealth has little to do with anything and there are people from the West and non-West who will be saved. But spiritually the balance of the church has shifted from the West. For the first time we now have a non European pope from Argentinia. It is only a matter of time before we have one from Southern Africa or Asia. It is easier to identify faith with some African countries than European ones today.

Hardly surprising considering zero effort is required. Spend decades of your life kidding yourself as you go from Church to Church looking for the elusive Holy Spirit and a pastor preaching something you can relate to, and if that fails just make it up as you go along. You could subscribe to a YouTube Ministry being 'guided' by a higher being advocating New Age Mysticism blended with a flavour of Christianity.

You Muslims do not understand grace and mercy. Yes salvation is a free gift that requires no effort on our part. But the so called "good deeds" of the Muslim world are often in Gods eyes chocked and poisoned by hypocrisy, false motives and are more a matter of peer pressure and duty than of the freely given love that God is looking for. Christian lives are more deeply transformed than that of any Muslim in existence.

Islam did all those things too, just study the life of the prophet pbuh and the 500 years of the Golden era.

Not really no one has so thoroughly catered for the education of the ignorant, the care of the poor and sick than did Christian Europe. The success of Europe in these areas has however in the last 30 years been at the expense of true spirituality and we have lost focus and now the compassion we inherited from Christ and institutionalised threatens to crush Europe under a burden its people no longer seem able to sustain.

Islam says don't chance the World, try to be content and worship GOD, then you will find the World will come running to you. By connecting to GOD as we do throughout the day, 5 fixed prayers and personal remembrance of Allah swt brings spiritual happiness and a real purpose to life. One that fills a deep inner need all humans have.

Christians pray and study scripture. The external compulsion that characterises the Islamic prayer regime does not produce the kind of prayers and sacrifices that God is looking for. Do not kid yourselves that you can force heartfelt devotion by external compulsion and habits.

Atheists and people of other beliefs too are righteous, honest and compassionate. It's not something that only Christians are able to offer. Go and read the comment sections of YT videos on religion and you will see Christians often have the foulest things to say in exchanges with people of other faiths, perhaps in part due to lack of moderation. Still it shows the spirit residing within is perhaps not as 'holy' as they claim.

Every person has a war going on between good and evil inside them.

As St Paul describes in Romans 7-8 this war has been won by Christ and therefore by those in whom Christ dwells. The externality of Islam and the requirements of the law that it seeks to physically impose on people are actually a part of the reason why this war can never be won inside a Muslim and the worth that comes from God alone cannot be realised in their lives.

"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

Sounds good, rise of robots to take away low and middle class jobs, falling populations, alternative energy sources and perhaps in a few hundred years, no one will bother with what Muslims are doing in the East and leave them in peace to choose their own leaders. You should be reminded that it was the West that developed and used weapons of mass destruction to devastating effect on unarmed people.

Arab oil dependence has been at a price and much blood and treasure has been spent by the major powers on securing dominance of a global economy based on fossil fuels and also in the battles within the Middle east also between Muslims. But as you say the world is changing and robotics may mean the reduction of a demand for unskilled labour that migrants often supply, alternative energy will reduce the dependence on oil and nuclear armed fossil fuel providers may change the balance of the military equation irrevocably. Fracking already means that the USA is not dependent on imported oil but it maintains its alliance with the Saudis nonetheless. The oil economy is far from finished but I suspect that many Muslims also think that its influence has not been entirely healthy even on those Muslim countries who are almost entirely dependent on its profits.

Muslim-UK · May 20, 2017

mindlight said:
Turkey is overwhelmingly Sunni by faith and an islamist direction does not bode well for female freedoms in the country. Many of these rapes occur within marriages so headscarves have little to do with this.

Previously you mentioned 35% of women stating they had been raped in Turkey, but provided no evidence. Please do so as I highly doubt what you are saying.

mindlight said:
It requires grace to understand who God is. Logically there is no better way for God to explain who He is than by becoming one of us and dwelling amongst us. This is what Christ did.

So Jesus pbuh is to you as Hercules and Zeus were to the ancients, or as Krishna is to Hindus.

mindlight said:
Islam is weak in the UK. So you do not insist on Sharia. But Muslim majority countries have no qualms imposing it on people who are not Muslims.

So according to you, majority Muslims Countries shouldn't be allowed to democratically elect rule by Shariah Law.

mindlight said:
Europe has had 70 years of nearly uninterrupted peace and arguably has grown soft, overly comfortable and decadent. We are overdue for a revival but it hard to say if the continent has yet hit rock bottom.

There will never be a revival, it will only continue to decline and become increasingly Secular. These Nations will continue pushing the limits on what is acceptable to GOD, and eventually your time in 'Heaven', this Earth will come to pass.

mindlight said:
You Muslims do not understand grace and mercy. Yes salvation is a free gift that requires no effort on our part. But the so called "good deeds" of the Muslim world are often in Gods eyes chocked and poisoned by hypocrisy, false motives and are more a matter of peer pressure and duty than of the freely given love that God is looking for. Christian lives are more deeply transformed than that of any Muslim in existence.

Yes keep telling yourself peer pressure is the reason Mosques are packed full on Fridays, including in University Towns and Cities where people are living away from friends and family, attending prayers of their own free will. In a weeks time Ramadan will be upon us. No food or drink from 2:30 a.m until around 9:00 p.m. This is a act of worship that is purely between the believer and God, as only He knows if you really are fasting and not snacking in secret. GOD makes it clear, He has no need for anyone to pray, fast, give in charity or perform any act of worship, it is all purely to benefit ourselves. Remember the scales and books that are brought forth in Revelation.

mindlight said:
Not really no one has so thoroughly catered for the education of the ignorant, the care of the poor and sick than did Christian Europe.

Apart from the Dark Ages where Europe was lagging well behind the Islamic Empire during the Golden Era. It's well documented even amongst qualified Secular Historians.

mindlight said:
Christians pray and study scripture. The external compulsion that characterises the Islamic prayer regime does not produce the kind of prayers and sacrifices that God is looking for. Do not kid yourselves that you can force heartfelt devotion by external compulsion and habits.

So jesus pbuh fasting, praying and doing good works were all in vain. Christendom setting prayers 3 times a day for almost 2,000 years was all pointless, a practice still observed in some Christian quarters: Daily Prayer: Praying the Hours - Index (The Prayer Foundation)

Qur'an 10:36 Most of them follow nothing but conjectures. Surely, conjectures are of no avail in the matter of truth

mindlight said:
Every person has a war going on between good and evil inside them.

As St Paul describes in Romans 7-8 this war has been won by Christ and therefore by those in whom Christ dwells.

I've never in 15+ years ever met a single Christian who has been able to convince me anything of the sort dwells within them.

mindlight said:
The externality of Islam and the requirements of the law that it seeks to physically impose on people are actually a part of the reason why this war can never be won inside a Muslim and the worth that comes from God alone cannot be realised in their lives.

Again conjecture and wishful thinking on your part.

mindlight said:
"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

Clearly Paul had a troubled mind, which is at odds with his earlier statement of war within being won with Christ in residence. He asked God several times to remove his affliction and was rejected each time.

mindlight · May 21, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
You can not show this as a teaching from Jesus pbuh himself. The Dead Sea Scrolls show followers of Jesus pbuh had no clue about death on a cross, resurrection or a God incarnate. A study of early Church History and Canonisation of the Bible shows disagreements, anonymous books and clear evidence of editing and additions.

The 7 I AM sayings of Johns gospel are illustrative of the Divinity of Jesus. When He says I AM the Way, the Truth, the Life, the resurrection..... He says something that would be blasphemous unless He is God. A selective reading of the Dead Sea Scrolls will yield just about any conclusion you want. But there is very little cross over between the literature found in Qumran and the New Testament text because it was mainly non Christian Jews who lived there and occupation of Qumran ended at roughly the time that the New Testament was being written down. What the find does do is affirm the Old Testament as the Masoretic Text can be confirmed from the scrolls found there.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and Biblical Integrity

Regarding changes and editing to the canonical text there is remarkably little real evidence of this and more that affirms that the text we have today is broadly what was originally written down. The major disagreements were not over the core gospels or the majority of Pauls letters. The real canon was established by the usage of the church and merely rubber stamped by the later councils where controversies occurred anyway.

Christians choose to brush these matters off and thus have a strong 'belief' system. Muslims have evidence, which we hold in our hands today and a concept of GOD which we can easily identify with and evident in the writings of Jewish Scriptures. Blind following is forbidden in Islam, and so with the problems laid out we will always disagree on core issues that effect our eternal souls.

The Christian bible has endured a 2-300 year long critique unprecedented in the history of Islam which has survived this. The textual authority remains intact. Come back in a couple of hundred years where the liberals have finished with the Quran. This process has not really even begun in Islam. There are several threads in which the reliability of the Quran has been questioned. It seems that many alternate copies were burnt and in the text found in Sana we do have evidence of editing.

The amount of sin in the Christian World has gone up since Jesus pbuh returned to God. Confusion has increased and many are being led astray.

Not sure how you would calculate this and it seems a rather wild and ill informed thing to say. The abolition of slavery, bible education, compassion for poor, sick or lost people has all increased. The world is less brutal and more righteous in many different ways and whole cultures have been transformed by Christ. People can give you invidual testimonies also of how lives have been transformed. I had a an issue with alcohol for instance but have not drunk any for 2 decades aside from communion wine. It would be hard to assign the sin of drunkenness to me since I have not been drunk for 2 decades. That is a change for the better I think. I think I would rather meet a modern Western Christian in the street than a pagan from Roman times

God is easy to understand, though we may not fully ever be able to comprehend his Majesty, we are told repent and turn back to Him for forgiveness. There is no salvation found in the blood of an innocent human being. God hates human sacrifice and has no need for it. Faith in God, works and deeds is what matters to benefit us in the hereafter.

Without the once for all perfect sacrifice that Christ made on the cross you will never know God. Why? Because you have no right to stand in Gods presence dressed in the filthy rags of your sins. None of us do. Without the cross there is no redemption. The devil assumed that the cross could be a victory cause he was crucifying his enemy and ending the threat he posed to world domination. But death and Hades could not hold a sinless man any longer than he wished to remain there. So by this action death and Hades are overthrown and we can truly hope in the prospect of eternal life.

over 100 Billion people have lived on Earth since the creation of Homo sapiens. Christians hold this Earth itself will be made new and this is where the new Heaven is. Looks like it's going to be quite a crowded place. Where's Hell in this equation?

I only think the earth is 6000 years old like many Muslim creationists also. Not everybody will be saved. The New Jerusalem was a cube 12000 stadia long on each edge. A stadia is minimally 160m. So there is more than enough capacity even for 100 billion people. Also it is God architecture so whose to say it is not some kind of tardis bigger on the inside that the outside

mindlight · May 23, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Disagreed and here's why:

Version One:

Acts 9:3-17: "…[Saul] was approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, `Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?'…The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one. Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. For three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.…there was a…disciple at Damascus named Ananias…laid his hands on Saul and said, `Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on your way here, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 9:3-17 or Acts 22:6-21 or Acts 26:12-18

Version Two:

Acts 22:6-21: "While I was…approaching Damascus…a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying…Saul,Saul, why are you persecuting me?...those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice…I could not see because of the brightness of the light…those with me…led me to Damascus…Ananias, who was a devout man according to the law and well spoken of by all the Jews living there…said…get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name."

Version Three:

Acts 26:12-18: "…I was traveling to Damascus…I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and my companions. When we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, `Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It hurts you to kick against the goads…the Lord answered, `I am Jesus whom you are persecuting…get up and stand on your feet…"

Which Version is the reader to believe? Saul alone fell to the ground; those with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one; Saul was without sight for three days; Ananias was a disciple who laid hands on Saul to restore his sight and fill him with the Holy Spirit.

Or

Saul alone fell to the ground; Those with him saw the light but did not hear the voice; No mention of three days without sight or food; Ananias was "a devout man according to the Law and liked by the Jews."

Or

Everyone fell to the ground; the voice spoke in the Hebrew Language; no blindness, no Ananias, no baptism, no restoration of sight, no “filled by Holy Spirit”!

Remember: Luke wrote all three of these accounts as you agreed.

Can mainly be explained in terms of bad translation. For instance Acts 9:3-17 says that the other guys "heard a sound" not a voice. One version gives an abbreviated account of what God said and the other the fuller version. One version tells the whole story including the blindness and Ananias and the other not. So no contradictions here.

Paul was at loggerheads with the Disciples in Jerusalem. Remember he was a Pharisee from the tribe of Benjamite, and Jesus pbuh rebuked the Pharisees in the strongest terms possible. There are many websites and threads found on this forum discussing who Paul really was, and what his intention was. It's not for me to lay out every charge against the man, suffice to say he taught salvation by grace, yet the final book of the Bible, Revelation clearly shows the day of Judgement features Scales and Books of deeds.

There was a transition with the disciples but they did welcome him. Paul was a top Pharisee educated by Gamaliel but his writing to Romans talking about justification by faith contradicts their understanding quite profoundly.

Acts 9:26-28
When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord.

The book of Revelation describes many of the judgments that fill disturb a world coming to its end and offers last chance warnings to those who have not yet turned to Christ.

The Final Messenger of Allah swt explained we are all born with several unseen entities. amongst them are 2 Angels; 1 sits on the left and the other on the right shoulder. They record your deeds, be they good or bad. After death you are escorted to the gates of Paradise where you will either be handed your record in your left or right hand and returned to your grave to await Judgement. No one has returned to provide evidence of the unseen, but people have had Near Death Experiences, one of which was a non practising Jewish man. He returned and is now a devout Jew, and I mention him as it shows no bias for Islam. Watch his testimony or at least the first 45 mins:

Christians profess that Christ returned from the realm of the unseen to give us an account. There are innumerable testimonies of near death experiences and I personally know an atheist who had one and became a Christian as a result of the encounter he had with Christ while clinically dead. I once used the angel and demon idea for a sermon on temptation but while the bible gives credence to guardian angels there is little to support the idea of one demon per person.

For every verse said to allegedly be the words from the lips of Jesus pbuh, there are ample verses showing he is was a man and in no way divine. So ultimately as stated above it's purely a matter of faith on your part.

Christ was fully human and fully God and there are verses that affirm both his humanity and his Divinity.

I see judgement according to faith and works in support of the Islamic position. Also notice the Earth and the Heavens fled from his presence. Muslims are taught this includes all the planets turning to dust, and the Angels too will cease to be any more.

Revelation 6:5
The Lamb opened the third seal. Then I heard the third living being say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse. The rider on the horse held a pair of scales in his hand.

Clearly faith alone is not enough, and certainly not faith in a belief that does not stand up to Historical or Theological scrutiny.

There are two kinds of books. If your name is not in the Book of Life it does not matter what you did with your life. But there is also a judgment for deeds. The point here is that in Christian theology it is not your deeds that earn your salvation, it is a free gift of Gods grace and mercy.

mindlight · May 23, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Previously you mentioned 35% of women stating they had been raped in Turkey, but provided no evidence. Please do so as I highly doubt what you are saying.

In Turkey 35.6% of women have experienced marital rape sometimes and 16.3% often (surveys published in 2000, Women and sexuality in Muslim societies, WWHR Publications: Istanbul, 2000).

Amnesty International: Report on Violence Against Women

So Jesus pbuh is to you as Hercules and Zeus were to the ancients, or as Krishna is to Hindus.

Hercules, Zeus, Krishna were all barbarians with personalities more akin to demons than Jesus. If they even existed that is?

So according to you, majority Muslims Countries shouldn't be allowed to democratically elect rule by Shariah Law.

The protection of Christian minorities in Muslim countries is for of concern for me than what Muslims choose to inflict upon themselves.

There will never be a revival, it will only continue to decline and become increasingly Secular. These Nations will continue pushing the limits on what is acceptable to GOD, and eventually your time in 'Heaven', this Earth will come to pass.

There has been a revival every century for the last thousand years , except that is in the twentieth century. The power of the revivals of the nineteenth century was such that it has taken a long time for the Christian church to come to the point where it sees God with fresh eyes. But no I believe there will a revival and that on an anecdotal level I have already experienced it in my own life and in the lives of others.

Yes keep telling yourself peer pressure is the reason Mosques are packed full on Fridays, including in University Towns and Cities where people are living away from friends and family, attending prayers of their own free will. In a weeks time Ramadan will be upon us. No food or drink from 2:30 a.m until around 9:00 p.m. This is a act of worship that is purely between the believer and God, as only He knows if you really are fasting and not snacking in secret. GOD makes it clear, He has no need for anyone to pray, fast, give in charity or perform any act of worship, it is all purely to benefit ourselves. Remember the scales and books that are brought forth in Revelation.

I do not doubt the fervour of the Islamic world nor that mosque is very much at the heart of the identity of Muslim communities in the UK that are resisting integration and having large families. There is peer pressure to be in these communities and there is a real fervour for a God Muslims do not know.

Apart from the Dark Ages where Europe was lagging well behind the Islamic Empire during the Golden Era. It's well documented even amongst qualified Secular Historians.

The socalled Golden age was a time when the Caliphates captured majority Christian areas and had all these educated and more civilised Christian to draw on. In recent years the numbers of nobel laureates, major scientific innovations or contributions to human civilisation that have come out of the Muslim world has been laughable however much the media want to exaggerate these things.

There is not one Muslim country in the top 30

Nobel Prize Winners By Country

So jesus pbuh fasting, praying and doing good works were all in vain. Christendom setting prayers 3 times a day for almost 2,000 years was all pointless, a practice still observed in some Christian quarters: Daily Prayer: Praying the Hours - Index (The Prayer Foundation)

Qur'an 10:36 Most of them follow nothing but conjectures. Surely, conjectures are of no avail in the matter of truth

Churches have often tried to impose regimes and some of those disciplines have been helpful and others not. Fundamentally however Christian participation is by definition voluntary. Jesus doing good works untainted by any kind of sin is one thing but someone doing good works who ahs sinned (ie every body else) will always taint their works with that sin. So works by themselves cannot earn salvation. They can express thanks and praise and the grace of God.

I've never in 15+ years ever met a single Christian who has been able to convince me anything of the sort dwells within them.

You cannot see and therefore it is not there? Or this is real but you have not been given eyes to see it yet? Or what is there is something forever protected from you.

Clearly Paul had a troubled mind, which is at odds with his earlier statement of war within being won with Christ in residence. He asked God several times to remove his affliction and was rejected each time.

I think he is being honest in saying that the war between good and evil is going on inside ourselves. You talk about an angel and a demon perched on each shoulder , in a way that is merely dodging the responsibility that exists for your own sin and the need to bring those sins to God in repentance.

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