Translations of Matthew 24:16

Rik Brooks · May 17, 2017

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven but my Father only. NKJV

This is how the King James and New King James version has it but the American Standard and some other translation have "angels of heaven nor the Son..." before "but my Father only."

So the question is, which is accurate? If the version where it says "nor the Son" doesn't that contradict the Trinity?

vinsight4u · May 17, 2017

dannheim · May 17, 2017

God in THREE PERSONS blessed Trinity. A true mystery that our little brains can't handle.

vinsight4u · May 17, 2017

Hank77 · May 17, 2017

Rik Brooks said:
So the question is, which is accurate?

Here is an article that may help you decide.
Why So Many Versions?

Rik Brooks said:
If the version where it says "nor the Son" doesn't that contradict the Trinity?

imho,
I cannot think how it does.
What Jesus knew was revealed to Him by His Father. Jesus and His Father are one in nature/essence, One but individual.
If one were to take away the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit God would not be the God that He is because something would be missing that contributes to the essence of God.
But that doesn't mean the Jesus, during is time on earth as a man, had to know everything that the Father knew.

mark kennedy · Jul 2, 2017

Rik Brooks said:
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven but my Father only. NKJV

This is how the King James and New King James version has it but the American Standard and some other translation have "angels of heaven nor the Son..." before "but my Father only."

So the question is, which is accurate? If the version where it says "nor the Son" doesn't that contradict the Trinity?

No I think it reflects mutual submission, the Father alone determines the date, the Son doesn't intrude on his authority. There is a controversy that was going on in the early church:

Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 was a storm-center amidst the church fathers in the Arian controversies of fourth century AD. Both sides utilized these texts in their arguments and at several points the inclusion or omission of οὐδες ὁ υἱός in Matt 24:36 becomes the center of attention. (The Textual Problem Of "οὐδὲ ὁ υἱός" In Matthew 24:36)

It's one of those puzzling texts that has some problems with text variation in the originals. That's not the question, how does the Son of God not know everything the Father knows, he is omniscient by definition so how does he tell us he doesn't know the date of his return? Ok, it's a stretch but I think there might be something in the grammar that suggests Jesus could know but chooses not to concern himself with what the Father has determined by his authority and suggesting we should do likewise:

(b) while ginosko frequently implies an active relation between the one who "knows" and the person or thing "known" (see No. 1, above), oida expresses the fact that the object has simply come within the scope of the "knower's" perception; thus in Mat 7:23 "I never knew you" (ginosko) suggests "I have never been in approving connection with you," whereas in Mat 25:12, "I know you not" (oida) suggests "you stand in no relation to Me." (Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words, (G1492 εἴδω eidō).

When Jesus says I never knew you he is not saying he had no idea you exist, obviously he knows that person well enough to judge them for their deeds. He is saying while you were doing all those things in my name, you never got your direction from me. Older preachers when you hear them preach have a tenancy to go past the theology, even the exposition and start to relate their relationship with God through Christ.

My point is simply I think he is saying I mind my business about the exact date, so should you. He's not saying he has no idea, he is saying the Father alone determines that date, mind your own business about that because I do.

Grace and peace,
Mark

-V- · Jul 3, 2017

Rik Brooks said:
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven but my Father only. NKJV

This is how the King James and New King James version has it but the American Standard and some other translation have "angels of heaven nor the Son..." before "but my Father only."

So the question is, which is accurate? If the version where it says "nor the Son" doesn't that contradict the Trinity?

First, it's verse 36.

Second, either "version" can be read here. For one, Mark 13:32 includes "nor the Son", and it's not questioned whether or not it should be there. Matthew probably didn't originally have it, but the phrase "my Father *ONLY*," already implies that Jesus does not know, so "nor the Son" isn't really needed in Matthew. Either reading essentially says the same thing.

So, does this contradict the Trinity? No. Note Philippians 2 states that Jesus "emptied" Himself of His divinity and became like "a slave". Theologians often refer to this as Jesus' "state of humiliation". Despite being God, Jesus set aside His divinity during His earthly ministry. That would include setting aside omniscience. That is how Jesus could lack knowledge that the Father had.

Hank77 · Jul 3, 2017

I think another example would be when Jesus prayed asking the Father if there was any other way besides the crucifixion and says, para, "but your will Father not mine."

Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Christodoulos · Jul 6, 2017

-V- said:
First, it's verse 36.

Second, either "version" can be read here. For one, Mark 13:32 includes "nor the Son", and it's not questioned whether or not it should be there. Matthew probably didn't originally have it, but the phrase "my Father *ONLY*," already implies that Jesus does not know, so "nor the Son" isn't really needed in Matthew. Either reading essentially says the same thing.

So, does this contradict the Trinity? No. Note Philippians 2 states that Jesus "emptied" Himself of His divinity and became like "a slave". Theologians often refer to this as Jesus' "state of humiliation". Despite being God, Jesus set aside His divinity during His earthly ministry. That would include setting aside omniscience. That is how Jesus could lack knowledge that the Father had.

Philippians 2:5-8, does not teach that Jesus Christ "emptied Himself" of His Deity, this is a false understanding of the passage, and the teaching of the Holy Bible.

Jesus Christ is Almighty God, as can be seen from this passage in Philippians. "who existing (so the force of the Greek, ὑπάρχων, "always existing", imperfect tense) in the nature (again, the Greek, μορφῇ, is used in the Aristotelian sense, as in Mark 16:12) of God". As God, Jesus could not at any time "cease" to be "God", or in any way "lay aside" His Deity. This is an impossibility. We have a number of Scriptures that clearly show that Jesus Christ was fully God while on earth. He accepted worship, forgave sins, said that He was essentially one with the Father (John 10:28-30); said that He was the "I am" (YHWH) of Exodus 3:14-15 (see John 8:56-58), etc.

It also says in the Philippians, that Jesus, "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". "robbery" here is for "claiming something for oneself, that was not lawfully theirs". "equal" here is from the Greek, "ἴσα", which is in the neuter plural, denoting, "on equal terms, without advantage to either side", which could only be said of someone who was completely "equal" to God, and no inferior.

It was this "equality" with God the Father, that Jesus, while on earth, "gave up", as He became a "Servant", which is a state of humiliation. This can be seen from passages like Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." This "equality", is what Jesus refers to as "glory", and what He speaks of having "given up", and to be "restored" after His Ascension. In John 17:5, Jesus says, "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was". And, Luke 24:26, "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?". And even Philippians 2:8, "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

-V- · Jul 6, 2017

Christodoulos said:
Philippians 2:5-8, does not teach that Jesus Christ "emptied Himself" of His Deity, this is a false understanding of the passage, and the teaching of the Holy Bible.

Jesus Christ is Almighty God, as can be seen from this passage in Philippians. "who existing (so the force of the Greek, ὑπάρχων, "always existing", imperfect tense) in the nature (again, the Greek, μορφῇ, is used in the Aristotelian sense, as in Mark 16:12) of God". As God, Jesus could not at any time "cease" to be "God", or in any way "lay aside" His Deity. This is an impossibility. We have a number of Scriptures that clearly show that Jesus Christ was fully God while on earth. He accepted worship, forgave sins, said that He was essentially one with the Father (John 10:28-30); said that He was the "I am" (YHWH) of Exodus 3:14-15 (see John 8:56-58), etc.

It also says in the Philippians, that Jesus, "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". "robbery" here is for "claiming something for oneself, that was not lawfully theirs". "equal" here is from the Greek, "ἴσα", which is in the neuter plural, denoting, "on equal terms, without advantage to either side", which could only be said of someone who was completely "equal" to God, and no inferior.

It was this "equality" with God the Father, that Jesus, while on earth, "gave up", as He became a "Servant", which is a state of humiliation. This can be seen from passages like Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." This "equality", is what Jesus refers to as "glory", and what He speaks of having "given up", and to be "restored" after His Ascension. In John 17:5, Jesus says, "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was". And, Luke 24:26, "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?". And even Philippians 2:8, "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

I never said Jesus stopped being God. We're saying the exact same thing, just wording it differently.

Christodoulos · Jul 6, 2017

-V- said:
I never said Jesus stopped being God. We're saying the exact same thing, just wording it differently.

This is what you say: "Note Philippians 2 states that Jesus "emptied" Himself of His divinity and became like "a slave". Theologians often refer to this as Jesus' "state of humiliation". Despite being God, Jesus set aside His divinity during His earthly ministry." How can Jesus "set aside His divinity", and still remain God?. He was at the Incarnation, fully God and fully Man, though One Person. The "emptying" that Paul speaks of is not "His divinity". Where do we say the same thing?

-V- · Jul 7, 2017

Christodoulos said:
This is what you say: "Note Philippians 2 states that Jesus "emptied" Himself of His divinity and became like "a slave". Theologians often refer to this as Jesus' "state of humiliation". Despite being God, Jesus set aside His divinity during His earthly ministry." How can Jesus "set aside His divinity", and still remain God?. He was at the Incarnation, fully God and fully Man, though One Person. The "emptying" that Paul speaks of is not "His divinity". Where do we say the same thing?

"Set it aside" just means He laid aside His privaleges; e.g. didn't use them. It IS the same thing you're saying, just worded differently.

Christodoulos · Jul 7, 2017

-V- said:
"Set it aside" just means He laid aside His privaleges; e.g. didn't use them. It IS the same thing you're saying, just worded differently.

This is where we are different. I do not believe that while on earth, our Lord "laid aside" His "attributes" that pertain to His Deity, at all times. Like, in John 2:24-25, we read, "But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.", where only as God, Jesus could have "known all people...[and] know what was in man". In the previous chapter Jesus says to Nathanael, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you" (1:48), to which Nathanael says, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”. Here the omniscience of Jesus clearly seen. Then also in this Gospel, we have the words which have been removed in most modern versions, but has the best textual evidence, in 3:13, where we read, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man Who is in heaven". Here the use of the "continuous, present tense" in the Greek, shows that while Jesus was on earth speaking with Nicodemus, He was at the SAME TIME, also in heaven! Thus showing His Omnipresence at this time. He was not omnibody, but omnipresent, as Almighty God. This attribute is also seen in Jesus' Words in Matthew 18:20, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.", where He speaks of His "present presence" (not after His Ascension) with ALL who are gathered together in His Name for prayer. To be able to do this with ALL at EVERY place, at the SAME time, is because Jesus is "Omnipresent" as God. The Person of Jesus Christ is a great Mystery, and cannot be fathomed by our limited understanding.

Christodoulos · Jul 7, 2017

mark kennedy said:
No I think it reflects mutual submission, the Father alone determines the date, the Son doesn't intrude on his authority. There is a controversy that was going on in the early church:

Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 was a storm-center amidst the church fathers in the Arian controversies of fourth century AD. Both sides utilized these texts in their arguments and at several points the inclusion or omission of οὐδες ὁ υἱός in Matt 24:36 becomes the center of attention. (The Textual Problem Of "οὐδὲ ὁ υἱός" In Matthew 24:36)

It's one of those puzzling texts that has some problems with text variation in the originals. That's not the question, how does the Son of God not know everything the Father knows, he is omniscient by definition so how does he tell us he doesn't know the date of his return? Ok, it's a stretch but I think there might be something in the grammar that suggests Jesus could know but chooses not to concern himself with what the Father has determined by his authority and suggesting we should do likewise:

(b) while ginosko frequently implies an active relation between the one who "knows" and the person or thing "known" (see No. 1, above), oida expresses the fact that the object has simply come within the scope of the "knower's" perception; thus in Mat 7:23 "I never knew you" (ginosko) suggests "I have never been in approving connection with you," whereas in Mat 25:12, "I know you not" (oida) suggests "you stand in no relation to Me." (Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words, (G1492 εἴδω eidō).

When Jesus says I never knew you he is not saying he had no idea you exist, obviously he knows that person well enough to judge them for their deeds. He is saying while you were doing all those things in my name, you never got your direction from me. Older preachers when you hear them preach have a tenancy to go past the theology, even the exposition and start to relate their relationship with God through Christ.

My point is simply I think he is saying I mind my business about the exact date, so should you. He's not saying he has no idea, he is saying the Father alone determines that date, mind your own business about that because I do.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hi Mark, you make some good points, but leave an important aspect out. During His Incarnation, Jesus, as the God-Man, "made Himself for a while lower than the angels" (Heb. 2.9), and in His "human nature", "grew in wisdom" (Luke 2:52), was "tired" had to "eat", etc, etc. As the God-Man, He says "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28); but, as God, He says, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30), that is "essentially" one, and completely "coequal", to the Father. As God He could tell the woman at the well in John chapter 4, all about her life, which showed to her and those who heard later, that He is indeed the Messiah, that is, "God manifested in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16, correct reading). As the God-Man, in His Incarnate "state", He chose to "limit Himself" (emptied Himself, Phil 2:5-8), but as Almighty God, could never "cease" to have all of the "attributes" of God, but did "choose" to, as the God-Man, to "exercise" them as He willed. It would be dangerous for anyone to suggest that this verse in Matthew 24:36 (not 16), shows that Jesus Christ was as God limited in His "knowledge". The Person of Jesus Christ is a Mystery, and we will never understand this with our sinful, limited minds.

prophetjul · Jul 7, 2017

Actually if you understand the Hebraic meaning behind the phrase, you would not be discussing about the godhood of Jesus. It has nothing to do with this.

BTW it is Mat 24:36

Christodoulos · Jul 7, 2017

prophetjul said:
Actually if you understand the Hebraic meaning behind the phrase, you would not be discussing about the godhood of Jesus. It has nothing to do with this.

BTW it is Mat 24:36

care to explain what you are trying to say?

prophetjul · Jul 7, 2017

Christodoulos said:
care to explain what you are trying to say?

Actually we know the day when Jesus will come back, just not exactly.
Let me bring you to this verse

1 Th 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Problem with Christian nowadays, we are trying to interpret the scriptures through our Greco modern lenses. The scriptures cannot be interpreted that way. The scriptures are written during the ancient Hebrew/Jewish settings. Idioms abound.

If you study the feasts of the Lord in Lev 23, you will note that all the feasts had exact days for celebration according to the Jewish calendar days, except one.
This one is the feast of Trumpets. This feast starts at the turn of the new moon of the seventh month. The start of the feast day is identified by looking for the new sliver of the new moon. It is extremely difficult to know exactly 'the hour and the day' of the new moon.

'But only the Father'. This is related to the ancient Jewish wedding. After betrothal of the couple, the groom goes back to the father's house to build a room for the bride. This may take up to a year or two. After the room is finished, the groom will wait for his father to tell him to fetch the bride for the wedding. Only the father knows the time to send the groom to bring the bride back home.

Thus,

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Christodoulos · Jul 7, 2017

prophetjul said:
Actually we know the day when Jesus will come back, just not exactly.
Let me bring you to this verse

1 Th 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Problem with Christian nowadays, we are trying to interpret the scriptures through our Greco modern lenses. The scriptures cannot be interpreted that way. The scriptures are written during the ancient Hebrew/Jewish settings. Idioms abound.

If you study the feasts of the Lord in Lev 23, you will note that all the feasts had exact days for celebration according to the Jewish calendar days, except one.
This one is the feast of Trumpets. This feast starts at the turn of the new moon of the seventh month. The start of the feast day is identified by looking for the new sliver of the new moon. It is extremely difficult to know exactly 'the hour and the day' of the new moon.

'But only the Father'. This is related to the ancient Jewish wedding. After betrothal of the couple, the groom goes back to the father's house to build a room for the bride. This may take up to a year or two. After the room is finished, the groom will wait for his father to tell him to fetch the bride for the wedding. Only the father knows the time to send the groom to bring the bride back home.

Thus,

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Nothing of what you say here actually deals with the text in question, which is Matthew 24:36, and not 16, that Jesus says that He does not know the Day of His Return, which some have wrongly taken to mean that Jesus cannot be Almighty God, as the Father is. This notion is absurd!

-V- · Jul 7, 2017

Christodoulos said:
This is where we are different. I do not believe that while on earth, our Lord "laid aside" His "attributes" that pertain to His Deity, at all times. Like, in John 2:24-25, we read, "But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.", where only as God, Jesus could have "known all people...[and] know what was in man". In the previous chapter Jesus says to Nathanael, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you" (1:48), to which Nathanael says, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”. Here the omniscience of Jesus clearly seen. Then also in this Gospel, we have the words which have been removed in most modern versions, but has the best textual evidence, in 3:13, where we read, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man Who is in heaven". Here the use of the "continuous, present tense" in the Greek, shows that while Jesus was on earth speaking with Nicodemus, He was at the SAME TIME, also in heaven! Thus showing His Omnipresence at this time. He was not omnibody, but omnipresent, as Almighty God. This attribute is also seen in Jesus' Words in Matthew 18:20, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.", where He speaks of His "present presence" (not after His Ascension) with ALL who are gathered together in His Name for prayer. To be able to do this with ALL at EVERY place, at the SAME time, is because Jesus is "Omnipresent" as God. The Person of Jesus Christ is a great Mystery, and cannot be fathomed by our limited understanding.

While on earth, did Jesus do those things all on His own, with His own power, or was it the Father and/or Holy Spirit working through Him?

prophetjul · Jul 7, 2017

Christodoulos said:
Nothing of what you say here actually deals with the text in question, which is Matthew 24:36, and not 16, that Jesus says that He does not know the Day of His Return, which some have wrongly taken to mean that Jesus cannot be Almighty God, as the Father is. This notion is absurd!

What Jesus says has nothing to do with the discussion of diety.
It is a Hebraic connection to the old. Jewish exegesis called Remez.

Translations of Matthew 24:16

Non-denominational with strong Baptist leanings.

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