Universal Reconciliation

vinsight4u said:

You seem to think that for Jesus to fulfill the law and the prophets = means every OT prophecy had to come to pass by then. It just means that Jesus Christ did the parts that He was to do up to that point. Heaven and earth will not pass away until the time of the new one is about to come that does not have the sea part.

Heaven and earth is about to pass when you see the still living people divided up and the righteous no longer are made of flesh and blood. There are no marriages.


Luke 20:35

“But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:”

Click to expand...

Not necessarily--Just that until heaven and earth pass away (literally as you say), not one part of the OT law will change, and we must not teach anyone else otherwise. Therefore we must follow and teach others to follow the 613 commandments, circumcision and all.

Do you think that you should continue to follow and tell others to follow all of the 613 commandments?

vinsight4u said:

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Daniel 12

Matthew 24:21
“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

70 AD was not the worst war in history

We were told about the beginning of sorrows time and that world war - of nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom will bring famines and such that follow after it starts.


40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

This is the time of a king - as a whirlwind. Not the situation back in 70 AD where Titus came with the people and he was not then the king, a general under his dad.

Click to expand...

Physically maybe not the worst in the world. More Jews died in the holocaust. But spiritually, I would say so far it has been the worst. 70AD symbolically ended God's relationship with the nation of Israel with the destruction of the temple. A chosen people now separated from their God and punished for about 2000+ years. Yea, I'd say that's pretty bad.

The final war will be fought with chariots and horseman?

/nvm

/nvm

vinsight4u said:

Jeremiah 29:10 did come to pass, but not Jeremiah 25:11-12. The Babylonian king has to still be in power at the end of 70 years when his land gets punished. Last time-the Medes took down the king of Babylon and the Jews would yet remain in captivity several more years before Jeremiah 29:10 would end and Cyrus would in his first year give the decree that the Jews could return.
But-the final king of Babylon had already been taken down about four years earlier. This means that a future king from Babylon will yet rise to rule the world and again take Israel captive.

Babylon - 605 BC - 539 BC
must yet rule till 70 years are over -for the prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11-12

Darius the Mede - 539 BC - 536 BC

Cyrus the Persian - 535 BC and gave the decree

future - a king of Babylon/Iraq's land
and the great tribulation will come

Click to expand...

Jeremiah 25:11-12
"This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chalde′ans, for their iniquity, says the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste."

Jeremiah 29:10
“For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place."

The Neo Babylon empire existed from 626 BC-539 BC (87 years). However, from 626 BC-609 BC Nebuchadnezzar's father (1st king) was constantly warring with the Assyrians and did not control all of Mesopotamia. It wasn't until 609 BC that Babylon did crush the Assyrians and controlled most of Mesopotamia

Secular timeline:
from 609 BC to 539BC (70 years) "the nations of Mesopotamia served Babylon"

Jewish timeline
from 441 BC to 371 BC (70 years) "the nations of Mesopotamia served Babylon"

vinsight4u said:

Darius the Mede - 539 BC - 536 BC

Cyrus the Persian - 535 BC and gave the decree

Click to expand...

Can you show me where you got these dates from. Most historical accounts reference Cyrus conquering Babylon in 539 BC and 2 Chronicles tells use his decree went out in his 1st year as king of Persia.

vinsight4u said:

The new prophecy that Gabriel gave to Daniel was as to the land of Israel, yet it included the prophecy about the years for a Babylonian king. When you add in that prophecy it takes you back to Jeremiah 25-there you can see that the cup was taken to the nations to have them serve Babylon.

Revelation 18
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Jeremiah 25
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

16And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

Click to expand...

Wine and wrath are very common "apocalyptic" terms of judgment and destruction used throughout the bible
Psalm 60:3 Psalm 75:8 Isaiah 51:17 Isaiah 51:22 Jeremiah 25:15 Obadiah 16 Revelation 14:10

/nvm

/nvm

vinsight4u said:

The time of "such as never was" that Daniel refers to ends with the resurrection of the just.
Daniel 12:1
"...there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was..."
Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall
awake..."
Daniel 12:11
"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation set up...a thousand two hundred and ninety day."
This time of such as was not ends with the resurrection of the just at the 1290th day.
even Daniel rests till that time ends
Daniel 12:13
"But go thou thy way..."
as in it is not for his day
"...for thou shall rest..."
Daniel would be among those that sleep in the dust before this such as was not time comes.
"...stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
Daniel would rise when we come to the 1290 days.
He will no longer sleep/rest - but stand.

Click to expand...

Who is all this happening to? The nation of Israel
"but at that time your people (Israel) shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book."

When will this occur? When the power of the holy people (Israel as God's chose nation) comes to an end .

"and I heard him swear by him who lives for ever that it would be for a time, two times, and half a time; and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be accomplished."


"And from the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days."

This happened in during the Jewish-Roman war and can be confirmed with extra biblical sources. Do you believe in double fulfillment then?

/nvm

/nvm

/nvm

/nvm

/nvm

vinsight4u said:

Darius the Mede - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

Just found this site on the net...quite helpful, so give it a look if you want to.

and
Belshazzar and Darius the Mede

Click to expand...

Thank you!

vinsight4u said:

Adding this -in case some are thinking all of Daniel 11 is over or almost over. It is not. Antiochus III - anti - his name means - against - or anti - died by a mob that also killed his troops with him. He did not get killed after fighting a war in the west. He died plundering a pagan temple in the east.
For Daniel 11:19 to come to pass -a king must war to the west and head back to his land - but can't be found.
This is no way what happened as to Antiochus III.

Click to expand...

I'm Not sure how Antiochus the Great (III) cannot fulfill Daniel 11:19.
"Afterward he shall turn his face to the coastlands, and shall take many of them; but a commander shall put an end to his insolence; indeed he shall turn his insolence back upon him. 19 Then he shall turn his face back toward the fortresses of his own land; but he shall stumble and fall, and shall not be found."

He went west along the Asia minor invading coast towns. He then went farther west to invade Greece, but was overthrown by Rome. After his defeat, In the treaty of Apamea, he had to abandon the territories he had conquered in Asia Minor. He then returned home and was killed.

Then Daniel 11:20
"Then shall arise in his place one who shall send an exactor of tribute through the glory of the kingdom; but within a few days he shall be broken, neither in anger nor in battle"

His son Seleuces Philopator succeeded his father Antiochus the Great and inherited a massive debt due the previous Treaty of Apamea. He set up a strict tax policy during his reign and even sent his treasurer to the Jewish Temple to collect tribute. He was then poisoned.

Then Daniel 11:21
"In his place shall arise a contemptible person to whom royal majesty has not been given; he shall come in without warning and obtain the kingdom by flatteries."

Seleuces Philopator had a son who should have been next in line, however, Antiochus Epiphanes (seleuces P younger brother) took the throne.

vinsight4u said:

It has not happened. No, this is not going to be a double- time prophecy. There is going to be only one war time -such as was not. It will not last centuries, but only a few years.
At the end of this war as shown in Deuteronomy 32 God will avenge the blood of His servants. Deuteronomy 32:21 shows that first the church would rise and then a foolish nation will anger Israel. During this time, God will hide His face from her as she has been sold by Him into the hands of her enemies.
At the end of this time, God will have mercy - take vengeance =and shows His face.
Let's look at what you noted in Daniel as to when God will show His mercy to Israel as that links up also with the prophecy in Deuteronomy 32.

you posted - when the shattering of the power of the holy people

========
Deuteronomy 32:36
"...repent Himself when He seeth that their power is gone..."

Click to expand...

In Romans 10:19, Paul quotes Deuteronomy 32:21 "“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;with a foolish nation I will make you angry."

The gentiles are the foolish nation that are used to make the Jews angry/jealous. The Church, consisting of Gentiles, are used to make Israel jealous

Romans 11:11: So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

vinsight4u said:

The 70 years didn't start till the time of Nebuchadnezzar taking some captives from Judah/Israel. Before that they were under tribute to Egypt. Nebuchadnezzar was going to war with Egypt, but got the message that his dad died, so he
hurried back to maintain the power of his throne. Later, he attacked Jerusalem and Israel began to serve him. Jeremiah notes this as being under a yoke of iron to serve the king of Babylon. It was not just a yoke on them, but on the nations.
Babylon was conquered, yes in the time of Cyrus, but he didn't arrive till about two weeks later. The kingdom was under Darius the Mede. This Darius would set up rulers over the provinces and Daniel being a favorite of the king -would end up in the den of lions, because of lies to the king-Darius. At the end of Daniel 6, where it lays out that story about Daniel, we find that Darius is listed, then Cyrus.

Daniel 6:28
"So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the
reign of Cyrus the Persian."

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about
threescore and two years old."

Click to expand...

This is a very interesting topic, as secular history does not have record of a Darius the Mede. Thank you again for the links, those were excellent explanations!

Jeremiah 25:11-12
This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chalde′ans, for their iniquity, says the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste.

This appears to imply that Babylon was to rule the Mesopotamia area for seventy years and then be punished. And this did happened from 609BC to 539BC= 70 years

vinsight4u said:

It has not happened

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the temple was destroyed in 70AD and has been desolate ever since. Unless you can show me where the temple wasn't destroyed in 70AD?

Also, here is what Josephus has to say about the Jewish-Roman war:
"WHEREAS the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of;"

vinsight4u said:

Daniel 9 shows at the end part of it that the time of Titus - and the city was destroyed was not the final week/70th week.

It shows - unto the end of the war...
Then heads into the final week that is determined.

The time of Titus and that destruction was determined.
But also note how it says that before the 70 weeks end another determined time of war must come to pass.
unto the end of the war....determined
This was is not part of the overall 70 weeks.

v 26
...end of the war....determined."

v 27
"...desolate...determined..."

v 24
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people...to finish the transgression..."
Yet, he would also tell Daniel about a time when the city would be destroyed and that would not count as part of finishing the transgression, but be a determined other section of time.

Click to expand...

I think where we are not seeing eye to eye on things is the GAP. You seem to imply that there is a gap in between weeks.

I'm not saying that's wrong because that's totally a possibility. However, at least to me, it diminishes prophecy.

If the prophecy says Seventy sevens are determined, to me that implies 490 years consecutively. However, if there are gaps (which there could be, I'm not a scholar or fluent in hebrew ), then it's really not 490 years. It's a much longer timespan 2000+ years. Then the 490 years aren't literal and the angel telling Daniel specifically about those years doesn't really mean anything. **the content of the prophecy has meaning, just not the time in which it is accomplished.