Book of Enoch?

Sanoy

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Your argument is based on silence, since we do not know what Jude and Peter felt about the rest of the Book of Enoch. It is not necessary so that Jude and Peter base their theology on the Book of Enoch. All we know is that Jude and Peter agrees with some of the contents of the Book of Enoch. We do not know whether they agreed on other parts of that book. All three writers (Peter, Jude, Enoch) shared a common religious environment and history, so it is not surprising that they agree with one another in certain aspects.

I assume that even today a Jewish writer could agree with some of the statements of Jesus - and even quote the New Testament. But that would not mean that a Jewish writer would acknowledge the New testament as Scripture. The same is true for how Jude and Peter quotes the Book of Enoch

Basing the validity of the Book of Enoch on the use of it's theological content is not an argument of silence. An argument of silence is to base a conclusion on the absence of something. I'm basing it on the presence of something in Jude. Namely his theological reliance upon it.

I further disagree with your second point, that Jude is not basing his theology on the Book of Enoch. He necessarily does. The book of Jude is a warning that the Church is being infiltrated by wicked people and false prophets. Jude reminds his audience of the destruction that follows the wicked and those who believe and fall away. He specifically opens up this section by saying "Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it" and follows with 3 examples.

1) in Verse 5 he uses the example of Israel's deliverance from Egypt and also their destruction by Babylon.
2) in Verse 6 he uses the example of the angels that left heaven and were bound in the earth (content not found in the Bible but in Enoch).
3)In verse 7 he uses the example of Sodom and Gomorrah.

He places the accounts of the Book of Enoch alongside the accounts in the Bible of equal reality.

Jude goes even further than this and calls the Book of Enoch a book of valid prophecy when he says in verse 14. "It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying,"...and then he quotes the Book of Enoch.

It couldn't be more clear that Jude believes the Book of Enoch to be prophetic and so contains scripture. He bases his theology upon it because he quotes this prophecy as his final and ultimate curse upon the infiltrators of the church. It is the culmination of what that entire section is leading up to.

To your last point. I agree that we do not know that he agreed with every part of the Book of Enoch. We don't need to know that to know that the Book of Enoch is valuable. According to Jude it contains true prophecy, it contains actual scripture. Whatever scripture it contains, however much, it is valuable to any Christian.
 
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jaybird88

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Your argument is based on silence, since we do not know what Jude and Peter felt about the rest of the Book of Enoch. It is not necessary so that Jude and Peter base their theology on the Book of Enoch. All we know is that Jude and Peter agrees with some of the contents of the Book of Enoch. We do not know whether they agreed on other parts of that book. All three writers (Peter, Jude, Enoch) shared a common religious environment and history, so it is not surprising that they agree with one another in certain aspects.

I assume that even today a Jewish writer could agree with some of the statements of Jesus - and even quote the New Testament. But that would not mean that a Jewish writer would acknowledge the New testament as Scripture. The same is true for how Jude and Peter quotes the Book of Enoch

has there ever been a teacher that taught from a "false book"? i cant imigane a teacher telling the assembly he is gonna read a passage from hitlers mein kampf and assure them its ok, its a false book but this one passage is really good so lets take a look. no one would take the teacher seriously again.
 
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jaybird88

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Enoch was found with the DSS. the Essenes had a library at qumran and the library included scriptures from all over the place, but we know they held Enoch in high regard alongside their Jewish scriptures as they quoted it many times in their own theology.
the Essenes, just like Jesus and John were a group that thought the pharisees were full of it and wanted nothing to do with their school of thought. and John more than likely was an Essene.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Your argument is based on silence, since we do not know what Jude and Peter felt about the rest of the Book of Enoch. It is not necessary so that Jude and Peter base their theology on the Book of Enoch. All we know is that Jude and Peter agrees with some of the contents of the Book of Enoch. We do not know whether they agreed on other parts of that book. All three writers (Peter, Jude, Enoch) shared a common religious environment and history, so it is not surprising that they agree with one another in certain aspects.

I assume that even today a Jewish writer could agree with some of the statements of Jesus - and even quote the New Testament. But that would not mean that a Jewish writer would acknowledge the New testament as Scripture. The same is true for how Jude and Peter quotes the Book of Enoch

Have you considered they were also quoting prophecies, and not just general moral doctrine, or about the angels who sinned?
 
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ViaCrucis

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As we all know, the book of Enoch was excluded from both Catholic and Protestant bibles: Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

Why is that the case though? Enoch was listed as an Old Testament Patriarch, and many of the names of God's angels are listed in it.

Any ideas?

Because it was never regarded as canonical by the Christian Church outside of the rather peculiar case of Ethiopia.

1) The book of Enoch wasn't written by the biblical Enoch; it was written in the Second Temple Period, probably around 300 BC.

2) It never enjoyed widespread prominence either in mainstream Jewish religion or, later, in Christianity.

The development of the Old and New Testament Canons, together making up the Christian Biblical Canon, was a fairly long and complex process; and the development of the Old and New Testaments developed differently:

The development of the New Testament can be broadly spoken of in two groups of books: The homolegoumena or "accepted books" and the antilegomena or "disputed books". The homolegoumena consists of the four Gospels, the Acts, the thirteen epistles of Paul, as well as 1 Peter and 1 John; they are homolegoumena because these were never disputed in the Church and were accepted and received incredibly early on as Scripture. The antilegoumena consists of the rest of what we today know as the New Testament, Hebrews, James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, and the Apocalypse of John (the Revelation); but it also included books that did not ultimately make it into the Canon, the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, the epistle of Clement (1 Clement), the epistle of Barnabas, and a couple others. Eventually, and largely due to time, the exact shape of the New Testament came about through the general consensus of the Church (there was no council or major top-down decision about this, it occurred rather naturally and organically).

The development of the Old Testament is a bit different. In Pharisaic Judaism there was a pretty standard acceptance of two sets of books: Torah (or the five books of the Pentateuch) and the Nevutim (the Prophets, consisting of the Major Prophets and the Twelve Minor Prophets). But the third category, Ketuvim or "Writings" was a lot fuzzier, it's safe to say that the Psalms were universally accepted, but the exact extent or contents of the Writings was an issue that was not itself resolved in Judaism until several centuries after Christianity and Judaism had split and gone their own ways. The issue is further complicated by the Septuagint, the major Greek translation of Jewish sacred writings which was made a couple hundred years before Jesus by a group of Jewish scribes and scholars in Alexandria, Egypt.

Christians, historically, more-or-less adopted the Septuagint as-is; but that doesn't mean that there weren't disputes over some of the books, there were disputed books. In the 39th Paschal Letter from St. Athanasius, in the mid-4th century, he outlines what books were to be accepted and read in the Egyptian churches (Athanasius being bishop of Alexandria), his list is also the first time we see all 27 books of the New Testament mentioned together. Athanasius' Old Testament would be pretty familiar to most Protestants to a point, Athanasius excludes Esther and places Esther in the category of apocrypha, whereas he includes the book of Baruch as canonical. However Athanasius' letter wasn't the first or last statement on the subject, and obviously the Bible has continued to include Esther (though, in different versions; Catholics and Orthodox embracing the Septuagint Esther and Protestants generally accepting the Masoretic Esther). Missing however from all differences and disputes about the Old Testament however? Enoch. Enoch was never given any serious attention in the disputes around the Old Testament; the Church by and large stuck with the Septuagint, and disputes over canonicity were restricted to within the Septuagint. A line of distinction was made, in some sense, between certain Old Testament books and other Old Testament books: The Old Testament Protocanon includes about everything Protestants would recognize as the Old Testament; the Old Testament Deuterocanon includes those books accepted by Orthodox and Catholics but largely not accepted by Protestants. But, again, Enoch was never part of either.

The non-use of Enoch in the regular life of the Church, its reading as part of Christian worship, meant it was never going to have a place in the Bible, because the Bible was shaped, over the centuries, by what was read and used in Christian worship. That's why there is no such thing as "lost books of the Bible", no books were lost from the Bible because the shape of the Bible was determined over the course of centuries by the general consensus of all the Faithful from across the Christian world.

It's for this reason that if we, for example, discovered a long lost letter from St. Paul, and we could verify that it is authentic, it still wouldn't be part of the Bible. The Biblical Canon has been shaped by two thousand years of Christian practice and experience; and while there are differences of opinion when it comes to the Old Testament Deuterocanon, and thus a difference in Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Bibles, what we have today is the result of that two thousand years of practice and experience. There's simply no place for Enoch in the Canon from two millennia nearly unanimous consensus of the Church; though again the Ethiopian Church is the peculiar case.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hearingheart

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Were the Jewish or Messianic leadership of the day involved in the formation of the canon?

I'm honestly looking for an answer to this question. Should I ask it in a different place? Where would I find out about this?
 
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jaybird88

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I'm honestly looking for an answer to this question. Should I ask it in a different place? Where would I find out about this?
Were the Jewish or Messianic leadership of the day involved in the formation of the canon?
the council of jemnia was held about 80 AD. it dealt with many things, one had to do with a canon all Jewish sects could accept. it was a pharisee council.
the followers of Jesus didnt have councils to decide what scripture we read, they believed in being lead by the spirit, not a group.
 
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Hearingheart

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the council of jemnia was held about 80 AD. it dealt with many things, one had to do with a canon all Jewish sects could accept. it was a pharisee council.
the followers of Jesus didnt have councils to decide what scripture we read, they believed in being lead by the spirit, not a group.

Thank you, I will research that.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Enoch lived thousands of years before the book with his name was written - therefore it is called pseudopigrapha - false writing. It was written between 100 bc and about 40 ad.

This I believe is the primary reason, but qualifications need to be made here. It is dated to roughly the first century before Christ, during a time when the Essenes were gaining popularity. The Essenes placed tremendous trust in this work (together with the Book of Jubilees) as revealed (rather restored) to God's people by means of angels, and angels being used by God to grant revelation to His people is not at all unprecedented in scripture (Daniel 8:15-19).

So the assumption that it is "False Writing" based solely on the grounds of dating is to preclude the possibility that this work actually did exist in pre-deluvian antiquity. I believe the work was and is authoritative, as will those who have ears to hear (Jude 1:15-14).
 
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. It is dated to roughly the first century before Christ,
That applies ONLY to the first part of the book. The last section "Watchers" is definitely from the first century ad.
 
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Hidden In Him

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That applies ONLY to the first part of the book. The last section "Watchers" is definitely from the first century ad.

Yes, but this does nothing to change the argument. Personally I rarely if ever feel led to read 2 or 3, though there are sections in each that fully confirm and explain passages in 1.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Because it was never regarded as canonical by the Christian Church outside of the rather peculiar case of Ethiopia.

I looked up your source on the Ethiopian Bible, called the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible, and couldn't find one for sale on Amazon or Ebay. I have heard they included the Epistle of Barnabas, but possibly just as an addendum, along with the Shepherd of Hermes. Do you know?
 
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jaybird88

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This I believe is the primary reason, but qualifications need to be made here. It is dated to roughly the first century before Christ, during a time when the Essenes were gaining popularity. The Essenes placed tremendous trust in this work (together with the Book of Jubilees) as revealed (rather restored) to God's people by means of angels, and angels being used by God to grant revelation to His people is not at all unprecedented in scripture (Daniel 8:15-19).

So the assumption that it is "False Writing" based solely on the grounds of dating is to preclude the possibility that this work actually did exist in pre-deluvian antiquity. I believe the work was and is authoritative, as will those who have ears to hear (Jude 1:15-14).

you think John or James were Essenes?
 
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1stcenturylady

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you think John or James were Essenes?

They were whatever Jesus was as a follower. I've read that John the Baptist must have taken the Nazarene vow, or Nazarite vow (spelling???) The same vow that Samson took.
 
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jaybird88

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I looked up your source on the Ethiopian Bible, called the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible, and couldn't find one for sale on Amazon or Ebay. I have heard they included the Epistle of Barnabas, but possibly just as an addendum, along with the Shepherd of Hermes. Do you know?
an observation on the Ethiopian bible. the faith went through lots of changes after it merged with rome, rome was always corrupt, one of the few churches they had little to no influence over was Ethiopia, and they have a different bible.
 
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1stcenturylady

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an observation on the Ethiopian bible. the faith went through lots of changes after it merged with rome, rome was always corrupt, one of the few churches they had little to no influence over was Ethiopia, and they have a different bible.

I would love to get an English copy of it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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an observation on the Ethiopian bible. the faith went through lots of changes after it merged with rome, rome was always corrupt, one of the few churches they had little to no influence over was Ethiopia, and they have a different bible.

Your statement has no basis in fact or history. The Ethiopian Church never "merged with Rome". That never happened. So what on earth are you talking about?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I looked up your source on the Ethiopian Bible, called the Orthodox Tewahedo Bible, and couldn't find one for sale on Amazon or Ebay. I have heard they included the Epistle of Barnabas, but possibly just as an addendum, along with the Shepherd of Hermes. Do you know?

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church Has more information on the subject.

As far as I know there has never been a full printing of the Ethiopian Canon in any language other than Ge'ez, I'm not even sure if there are modern Amharic or Tigre (two of the most commonly spoken languages in modern Ethiopia) versions. Outside of Ethiopia I think most Ethiopian Orthodox use a more standard Oriental Orthodox Bible, something that would be acceptable for Copts and Armenians. In truth, I'm not even sure to what degree the more peculiar books of the Ethiopian Canon are that influential to their day-to-day practice.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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jaybird88

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Your statement has no basis in fact or history. The Ethiopian Church never "merged with Rome". That never happened. So what on earth are you talking about?

-CryptoLutheran
lol slowdown, your trying way to hard to be a know it all.
i never said they did, i said rome had no influence on their church, Ethiopia was outside the long reach of rome. makes sense?
 
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