John 1720

Harvest Worker
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2013
1,017
445
Massachusetts
✟149,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
There is no substantiated evidence whatsoever that Tiberius' reign should be counted from any year prior to 14 CE. All hypotheses trying to prove otherwise are baseless speculation. Roman coins of the period show his reign beginning in 15 CE. Jewish regnal counting, as explained in the Talmud, is demonstrated by Josephus to start in 14 CE.

The count for Tiberius' reign can start in 15 CE or 14 CE, depending on whether you choose to count by Roman reckoning or Jewish reckoning respectively. That puts the start of his fifteenth year in 29 CE or 28 CE. I understand the arguments for earlier years, but they are not historically accurate. They are mere attempts to make the fifteenth year of Tiberius fit within the framework of an earlier nativity and ministry.

And given the fact that Luke was a Jew, talking to a Jew, and using a large amount of Jewish nomenclature, it is likely that the Jewish reckoning is the correct one. That's how Jews dated legal documents and such, by the year of reign of a king. If you read through some old papyrus, you'll find that most of them are dated in exactly the same way, but with different emperors and different years. Luke is simply giving the standardized year as a Jew would understand it.
Kings are pretty vain and Tiberius would not have been the first to claim his co-reign to his rule so I wouldn't dismiss it so fast. He was on equal terms as ruler as Wikipedia mentions not some Bible Institute that cares about the dating. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Also pretty sure Luke was a Greek from Antioch and not a Jew

Luke the Evangelist - Wikipedia

Respectfully, In Christ, Patrick
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AFrazier

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 1, 2016
1,133
338
52
Mauldin, South Carolina
✟159,750.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Kings are pretty vain and Tiberius would not have been the first to claim his co-reign to his rule so I wouldn't dismiss it so fast. He was on equal terms as ruler as Wikipedia mentions not some Bible Institute that cares about the dating. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Also pretty sure Luke was a Greek from Antioch and not a Jew

Luke the Evangelist - Wikipedia

Respectfully, In Christ, Patrick
Sorry, but I can't agree to disagree. I can only agree that we disagree. I'm right about this. I have been researching New Testament chronology for almost twenty years. I'm not "dismissing it so fast." I dismissed what you're saying over a decade ago when the evidence was clear that there was no evidence for what you're suggesting. The Roman coins, using Roman dating, in both regnal years and years of victory, specify 15 CE as the first year of Tiberius from a Roman perspective. Josephus, a first century Jew and priest, said that Tiberius reigned twenty-two years. That puts his first year in 14 CE by a Jewish perspective. There is not a single calendar or document in existence that we know of that dates Tiberius' reign by any year other than these two. As I said before, dating his reign from an earlier point is nothing more than an attempt to reconcile an earlier nativity and ministry. But there is no proof for it. At all. And the Roman coins disallow the notion that Tiberius may have done it, since he "would not have been the first to claim his co-reign to his rule." When such things happen, as in the case of Seleucus, who ante-dated his reign by seven years or so, the dating is uniform, even across cultures, as can be seen in both 1 and 2 Maccabees, which use the Seleucid Era as their dating epoch, but incorporate both the Babylonian and Hebrew counting methods, resulting in a minor discrepancy between them.

Furthermore, why would Luke use some vague version of Tiberius' reign, when everyone else in the civilized world was dating it from 14 CE or 15 CE? The point of dating something is to help the reader know when something happened. Telling us that it was Tiberius' fifteenth year of reign, when what Luke really meant is the super secret version of Tiberius' reign that no one else used or knew about but him and his secret acolytes ... it's just illogical. What was he doing? Sitting there laughing maniacally, saying, "muahh ha ha ha ... I'll tell them it was the fifteenth year. But I'll actually mean the fifteenth year from two years earlier. And no one will ever catch me!!!!" Give me a break.
 
Upvote 0

AFrazier

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 1, 2016
1,133
338
52
Mauldin, South Carolina
✟159,750.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Kings are pretty vain and Tiberius would not have been the first to claim his co-reign to his rule so I wouldn't dismiss it so fast. He was on equal terms as ruler as Wikipedia mentions not some Bible Institute that cares about the dating. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Also pretty sure Luke was a Greek from Antioch and not a Jew

Luke the Evangelist - Wikipedia

Respectfully, In Christ, Patrick
And for the record — no arrogance or conceit intended — I could write a better article than what's presently on Wikipedia, with more source material citations and a broader collection of facts. In fact, I just might. I thought that article was shabby and incomplete, and lacked a great deal of source material for its citations and bibliography.
 
Upvote 0

John 1720

Harvest Worker
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2013
1,017
445
Massachusetts
✟149,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
And for the record — no arrogance or conceit intended — I could write a better article than what's presently on Wikipedia, with more source material citations and a broader collection of facts. In fact, I just might. I thought that article was shabby and incomplete, and lacked a great deal of source material for its citations and bibliography.
Sure, that fine as that's the way it is supposed to work with Wikipedia anyway. Public scrutiny is always a good thing. Is this the passage you take issue with?
Wikipedia said:
Many scholars believe that Luke was a Greek physician who lived in the Greek city of Antioch in Ancient Syria, though some other scholars and theologians think Luke was a Hellenic Jew.[2][3] Bart Koet for instance considered it as widely accepted that the theology of Luke–Acts points to a gentile Christian writing for a gentile audience. Gregory Sterling though, claims that he was either a Hellenistic Jew or a god-fearer.[3]
 
Upvote 0

John 1720

Harvest Worker
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2013
1,017
445
Massachusetts
✟149,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Sorry, but I can't agree to disagree. I can only agree that we disagree......

Furthermore, why would Luke use some vague version of Tiberius' reign, when everyone else in the civilized world was dating it from 14 CE or 15 CE? The point of dating something is to help the reader know when something happened. Telling us that it was Tiberius' fifteenth year of reign, when what Luke really meant is the super secret version of Tiberius' reign that no one else used or knew about but him and his secret acolytes ... it's just illogical. What was he doing? Sitting there laughing maniacally, saying, "muahh ha ha ha ... I'll tell them it was the fifteenth year. But I'll actually mean the fifteenth year from two years earlier. And no one will ever catch me!!!!" Give me a break.
I don't know; perhaps because Roman Historians dated his reign as co-equal with Augustus in AD 13?
  • "The powers held by Tiberius were made equal, rather than second, to Augustus's own powers, he was for all intents and purposes a "co-princeps" with Augustus." - ibid. (same Wikipedia article)
Add to that Suetonius tells us that the declaration of his co-princeps took place in AD 12, after his return from Germania. If Luke was truly a Greek that hailed from Antioch, as many scholars claim, do you have special evidence from Syria of when they officially proclaimed the start of his reign? I'm sure most in the Empire considered it important that someone who was healthy nd powerful was really running the show. But hey, I'm only asking questions because I think it's important not to dismiss possibilities due to entrenched opinions. That hasn't served us well in the past so not willing to cast it off as a red herring.
 
Upvote 0

AFrazier

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 1, 2016
1,133
338
52
Mauldin, South Carolina
✟159,750.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Sure, that fine as that's the way it is supposed to work with Wikipedia anyway. Public scrutiny is always a good thing. Is this the passage you take issue with?
No, it was the Tiberius article.

Luke was clearly a Jew. One need only look at the nomenclature he uses and things he references. He talks about Jewish things with Jewish terminology in a way that only a Jew would understand. He, for example, dates the coming of John the Baptist with not only the fifteenth year of Tiberius, but by the governorship of Pontius Pilate, the reign of Herod in Galilee, Philip in Ituraea and the region of Trachonitis, Lysanias in Abilene, with Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests. The majority of these governorships would mean nothing to a person unfamiliar with Judea. He also mentions, for example, the course of Abijah, which would mean nothing to a person who wasn't a Jew. When Josephus mentions the passover, he always takes a moment to explain what he means to his gentile audience. Luke doesn't bother. He references things like "the days of unleavened bread" in Acts, without explanation, or that it was "the day of preparation," without an explanation of what that is. He expects his reader to know what he's talking about. This is in contrast to Mark, who defines "the day of preparation" as being the day before the Sabbath, because he has a gentile audience.

At the end of the day, Luke was either a Jew talking to a Jewish audience, or he was a gentile talking to a Jewish audience. Either way, he was talking to a Jewish audience. And the understanding of Tiberius' fifteenth year of reign ought to be viewed with that understanding in mind.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: John 1720
Upvote 0

AFrazier

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 1, 2016
1,133
338
52
Mauldin, South Carolina
✟159,750.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I don't know; perhaps because Roman Historians dated his reign as co-equal with Augustus in AD 13?
  • "The powers held by Tiberius were made equal, rather than second, to Augustus's own powers, he was for all intents and purposes a "co-princeps" with Augustus." - ibid. (same Wikipedia article)
Add to that Suetonius tells us that the declaration of his co-princeps took place in AD 12, after his return from Germania. If Luke was truly a Greek that hailed from Antioch, as many scholars claim, do you have special evidence from Syria of when they officially proclaimed the start of his reign? I'm sure most in the Empire considered it important that someone who was healthy nd powerful was really running the show. But hey, I'm only asking questions because I think it's important not to dismiss possibilities due to entrenched opinions. That hasn't served us well in the past so not willing to cast it off as a red herring.
To be clear, I don't have an entrenched opinion on this. I'm not guided by bias, tradition, or the status quo. I didn't know what to think when I first started researching it. What I know to be true is the result of many years of asking all these same questions and seeking out the answers.

For example, Suetonius doesn't actually say that Tiberius received the co-princeps in 12 CE, but the same year as the lustrum, which was in 14 CE, during the consulship of Sextus Pompeius and Sextus Apuleius, and also the same year Augustus died.

Suet. Tib. 21.1 — Since the consuls caused a law to be passed soon after this that he should govern the provinces jointly with Augustus and hold the census with him, he set out for Illyricum on the conclusion of the lustral ceremonies; but he was at once recalled, and finding Augustus in his last illness but still alive, he spent an entire day with him in private.

Aug. Res. Ges. 8 — A third time, with the consular imperium, and with my son Tiberius Caesar as my colleague, I performed the lustrum in the consulship of Sextus Pompeius and Sextus Apuleius. In this lustrum 4,937,000 Roman citizens were entered on the census roll.

Antioch dated a reign from September. They would have considered Tiberius' reign as beginning in the year we recognize as 14 CE. There is no historical evidence that any nation of that time period dated from the reign of a new ruler prior to the death of the old ruler. With Jews, this is even more so. If you're familiar with Herod the Great, you'll notice that he has two recorded reigns. One from 40 BCE, the other from 37 BCE. Herod, according to Josephus, kept a festival for when he first became king by the Romans. There are even coins with his first three regnal years on them. But the Jews didn't consider him king until Antigonus was deposed in 37 BCE. This is the sole reason Herod has two recorded lengths of reign instead of one. And all literature about Herod via the Jews recognizes his deeds and reign according to his conquest of Jerusalem in 37 BCE. Nothing is dated by 40 BCE.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I don't know; perhaps because Roman Historians dated his reign as co-equal with Augustus in AD 13?
  • "The powers held by Tiberius were made equal, rather than second, to Augustus's own powers, he was for all intents and purposes a "co-princeps" with Augustus." - ibid. (same Wikipedia article)
Add to that Suetonius tells us that the declaration of his co-princeps took place in AD 12, after his return from Germania. If Luke was truly a Greek that hailed from Antioch, as many scholars claim, do you have special evidence from Syria of when they officially proclaimed the start of his reign? I'm sure most in the Empire considered it important that someone who was healthy nd powerful was really running the show. But hey, I'm only asking questions because I think it's important not to dismiss possibilities due to entrenched opinions. That hasn't served us well in the past so not willing to cast it off as a red herring.
The title of Roman Emperor was not an official one. It was informal as the Principate was masquerading as the Republic restored.
Strictly speaking, it means who holds Imperium; a Roman concept slightly difficult to translate. Basically it is the civil and military authority or sphere of control of an individual. An Emperor was declared in later times when the Legions hailed someone as Imperator, here meaning roughly 'general', and hence Imperator (Emperor) became the catch-all term. The Emperor had a collection of official titles like Pontifex Maximus, Tribunician powers, Proconsular Authority for certain provinces, Consular authority in Rome itself, Censor etc., but there was no official title 'Emperor'; even the honourific Princeps was ambigious. This is all part of Augustus' excellent system of control, while appearing to restore.

As such, there is no such thing as an official time a 'reign' started. Augustus had the Senate vote Tiberius proconsular authority for Imperial provinces and make him co-censor as part of marking him as heir-apparent, but he did not pass on the Pontifex Maximus title nor the full tribunician authority. Tiberius still only held the temporary Tribunician powers required for the Germanic campaigns, not the full panoply of Augustus'. Tiberius was very much still the junior, was not hailed by the Legions, nor held the full powers of Augustus. It is modern farce to call him 'co-princeps', for even Suetonius doesn't see it this way. This merely illustrates how untrustworthy wikipedia really is.

Anyway, Rome dated by the consuls for the year - for instance 59 BC was 'the year of the consulship of Caesar and Bibulus' (or 'the year of the consulship of Julius and Caesar' to the satirists as Bibulus was ineffective). Alternately they used 'abs Urbs condita' - from the founding of the city of Rome.
Recording the starting years of Emperor's reigns really didn't matter to them and Tiberius really didn't want to be Emperor at all.

Tiberius had withdrawn to Rhodes and stayed out of Imperial affairs until forced back by Augustus after his heirs became thin on the ground. After he became Emperor, he would withdraw to Capri and left the role as ruler largely in his prefects' hands, Sejanus then Macro. This is really not a man who would out of pride antedate his rule, even if the Romans did such a thing (which they really didn't).

Dating from Emperor's reigns was not common practice in the Principate. It only came into prominence in the Diocletianic reforms. Most areas used local dating systems. For instance, Palmyra used a calender that took Pompey's eastern conquests as a starting point. Greeks tended to date by the Olympiads. It really was not uniform nor did the Romans have official reign dates.
To people in the Eastern part of the Empire, it would be inconceivable to say anyone but Augustus ruled in 13 AD, especcially as they would not have understood Roman titulature at this time. Often Augustus was adressed as Basileus or King by embassies, which was quite impolitic and sometime problematic in Roman politics. For these reasons, a dating of Tiberius' reign from a period while Augustus was alive is highly improbable.

The fact is that Luke uses various local figures such as the Judaean Prefect and Tetrarchs to give as accurate a date as possible and mentions the year of Tiberius' reign so that it can be easily grasped, in the local calender, when this occurred. Whenever a new Emperor came along, the various client kings and cities in the Empire would usually send salutations and renew solemn oaths to Rome. This allows a fairly good reference for his readers.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: John 1720
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I find the exact dates in this thread perplexing.

We know the following:

1. Three definite passovers mentioned in John. The so-called fourth passover's "a Jewish Festival" is too vague when he elsewhere explicitly said Passover. So at least 2.5 or 3 year ministry can be expected.

2. John the Baptist died before 36 AD. A defeat at this date was blamed on his murder according to Josephus, so a date just before this is logical. This occurred just prior to or early in Jesus' ministry.

3. Pontius Pilate was prefect of Judaea from 26-36 AD.

4. The fifteenth year of Tiberius is roughly 29 or 30 AD.

Going by astronomical dates to determine fridays and past Passovers does not work. The Hebrew calendar was observational and we have no way of determining when the cycles of the moon were observed 2000 years ago or whether it was cloudy - thus delaying it by a day or so. This was corrected by intercalary months, but this was largely on an ad hoc basis. Only in the Talmudic period did mathematical methods of determining the calender become standard and the modern rules only adopted from Maimonides in the 12th century. We simply cannot determined specific days so long ago, only hypothetical ones. We don't know when moons were observed nor when and how many intercalary months were added before later mathematical standardisation.

We have 29/30-35 AD as our range of applicable years here.
Possible dates for John the Baptist's death are from about 30-33 AD to account for his and Jesus' activities and Josephus' mention of the assumed effect of his death.
For the Crucifixion we can deduce a date from 33-35 AD to allow for the minimum length of Jesus' ministry.
This leaves a maximum five years for Jesus' ministry, although on balance of tradition and gospel mentions, I would think the usual three is most plausible.
Unfortunately more exact dates than these are likely suppositional and predicated on assuming information we cannot absolutely determine the validity of.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: John 1720
Upvote 0

John 1720

Harvest Worker
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2013
1,017
445
Massachusetts
✟149,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
You think so? The only explicit mentions of Passover in the three synoptic gospels is the last passover - the one associated with the crucifixion. Do you have any others in mind?
Hi GB,
Well the feeding of the 5000 was near a Passover and that particular one was not connected with the Lord's final Passover in Jerusalem. However, it is very obviously connected with the Synoptic Gospels.
According to Matthew this took place soon after John the Baptist was beheaded. Mark states the same thing and adds in Herod's suspicion that he thought Jesus' miracles were a sign John the Baptist had been resurrected. That may very well explain why they sought a deserted place. Luke adds that they sat in groups of fifty and that some of the crowd also thought Jesus was John the Baptist or Elijah the prophet but that Peter knew He was the Christ.

John 6:1-15 Feeding the 5000 also in Matt 14:13–21 Mark 6:30–44 Luke 9:10–17 
1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near. 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?” 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do......

In Christ, John 17:20





 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
the feeding of the 5000 was near a Passover
I included it in my list in a post written before the one you quoted.
John 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

John 11:55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.

John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

John 18:39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

:)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: John 1720
Upvote 0

John 1720

Harvest Worker
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2013
1,017
445
Massachusetts
✟149,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
No, it was the Tiberius article.
  1. Luke was clearly a Jew. One need only look at the nomenclature he uses and things he references.
  2. He talks about Jewish things with Jewish terminology in a way that only a Jew would understand. He, for example, dates the coming of John the Baptist with not only the fifteenth year of Tiberius, but by the governorship of Pontius Pilate, the reign of Herod in Galilee, Philip in Ituraea and the region of Trachonitis, Lysanias in Abilene, with Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests. The majority of these governorships would mean nothing to a person unfamiliar with Judea. He also mentions, for example, the course of Abijah, which would mean nothing to a person who wasn't a Jew.
  3. When Josephus mentions the passover, he always takes a moment to explain what he means to his gentile audience. Luke doesn't bother. He references things like "the days of unleavened bread" in Acts, without explanation, or that it was "the day of preparation," without an explanation of what that is. He expects his reader to know what he's talking about. This is in contrast to Mark, who defines "the day of preparation" as being the day before the Sabbath, because he has a gentile audience.
  4. At the end of the day, Luke was either a Jew talking to a Jewish audience, or he was a gentile talking to a Jewish audience. Either way, he was talking to a Jewish audience.
  5. And the understanding of Tiberius' fifteenth year of reign ought to be viewed with that understanding in mind.
Good and thoughtful post sir and you make some salient points. Here's where I am with them:
  1. Luke was clearly a Jew: Sure that could possibly be true, but not everyone is as assured as you are. So I think that is up for debate.
  2. He talks about Jewish things with Jewish terminology: Yes, I agree that Luke's writing attests to a great deal of knowledge of Judaism, as you say. However, let us not forget that he was also the companion of Paul, a highly educated Jew. Previous to that he seems to be was hanging out with the apostles in Jerusalem as his writings also attest to Stephen's martyrdom, etc. So an alternative explanation is that Luke was just a very educated, highly intelligent man who was well acquainted with Judaism because of his companions. Sometimes investigation can turn on a small point so I'm really just stating we should not lose sight of that as a possible factor in being able to explain Luke's ability to discuss all things Jewish.
  3. Luke does NOT explain what he means to his gentile audience: Yes, I agree with you that Luke's audience appears to be primarily Jewish. However, we do know who his audience was from His preface to both his Gospel (more likely at least partially Paul's) and his recording of Acts. Luke indeed was the "us" who heard it all from the eyewitnesses first and secondhand. So we know at minimum that he was not a Jew or Hellenic or otherwise that followed Christ from the beginning. Perhaps some might think it plausible that he was one of the Greeks that Phillip desired to introduce to Jesus in John 12:20-23 . Even that is highly speculative, since Luke doesn't bother to mention that incident. Lastly I think there is something else that might impeach the postulate that Luke was a Jew or a proselyte but right now we are on the audience piece so T.B.C.
    • Luke 1:1-4 said:
      [*]Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.
      [*]
    • Acts 1:1-3 said:
      [*]The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
      [*]
    • So who was this Theophilus; this lover of God whom Luke addresses? His referral to him as "most excellent or noble" would seem to signify some title of rank as in Acts 22:26 Acts 24:3 and Acts 26:25 . Some think he was a Jew from Alexandria, some think he was Paul's lawyer. That would certainly would explain the unfinished work of Acts. Theories abound but the Jewishness of Luke's work I agree was intentional.
    • Theophilus (biblical) - Wikipedia
  4. Luke was either a Jew talking to a Jewish audience, or he was a gentile talking to a Jewish audience: I agree but with some reservations. There is a relative disparity in Colossians 4 , where Paul writes his final greetings to the house church at Colossae naming all with him that also desired to salute that house Church as well as the one located in Laodicea.
    • Final Greetings Colossians 4:7-15 . Paul first names those of the circumcision:
      Tychicus, a beloved brother, faithful minister, and fellow servant in the Lord, will tell you all the news about me. I am sending him to you for this very purpose, that he may know your circumstances and comfort your hearts, with Onesimus, a faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you. They will make known to you all things which are happening here. Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him), and Jesus who is called Justus. These are my only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are of the circumcision; they have proved to be a comfort to me.
TBD: Getting back to the Bible Colossians 4
Paul then continues his parting salutation and goes on to name those with him that were excluded from the circumcision.

  • Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. For I bear him witness that he has a great zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis.
  • Luke the beloved physician
  • and Demas greet you.
  • Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea, and Nymphas and the church that is in his house.
So Paul's companions Epaphras, Luke and Demas do not appear to be circumcised Jews. That would seem to be a tripping point for me, where I feel it is not an obvious theory that Luke was indeed Jewish. I'm more inclined to agree with you that Luke was a Gentile speaking to a Jewish audience for that reason.

Lastly, I have one more question on #5 Jewish or non Jewish Luke

the understanding of Tiberius' fifteenth year of reign ought to be viewed with that understanding in mind.
  • I'm no coin expert, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you stated the coins in Judea all followed the normative markings that correspond to AD 29 as the 15th Year of Tiberius. The problem is that unless you find a 24th year of Tiberius coin minted after AD 37 how would you even know? I remember reading somewhere that might prove otherwise, however, I confess I may need more time to redo some searches on coins that turned up in Judea. You may think this a red herring or perhaps just a mere curiosity but basically the conjecture was this:
  • Seutonius recorded Livia's death at age 86, which was 15 years after Augustus death. Her death comes out to be A.D. 29 if the math is correct. The article stated that it was well known that Tiberius actually hated his mother and did not attend to her while she was dying or go to her funeral due to some grudge. After her death he removed any honorium of her name, including minted coins. My further understanding was that Pilate had minted coins with Greek coded dates on them according to the year of Tiberius. One of them, coded to the 16th year of Tiberius, also contained honors to the empress. The 16th year of Tiberias by normative reckoning should clearly decode to AD 30. The problem is that would clearly be a year after her death. Sure enough, the following year, stamped 17th year of Tiberius has no mention of the Empress, nor does any successive year of minted coins thereafter. If TIberias was behind deleting her name off the coins, Pilate being politically astute, one would think the 15th (AD 29) and 16th years (AD 30) would already have no reference to her. Is it possible the dating does indeed follow Tiberius co-princeps? Sorry if this is an annoyance but I just don't like to leave stones un-turned and wondering if you have possiblly heard about this.
In Christ, John 17:20
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married

Lastly, I have one more question on #5 Jewish or non Jewish Luke

the understanding of Tiberius' fifteenth year of reign ought to be viewed with that understanding in mind.
  • I'm no coin expert, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you stated the coins in Judea all followed the normative markings that correspond to AD 29 as the 15th Year of Tiberius. The problem is that unless you find a 24th year of Tiberius coin minted after AD 37 how would you even know? I remember reading somewhere that might prove otherwise, however, I confess I may need more time to redo some searches on coins that turned up in Judea. You may think this a red herring or perhaps just a mere curiosity but basically the conjecture was this:
  • Seutonius recorded Livia's death at age 86, which was 15 years after Augustus death. Her death comes out to be A.D. 29 if the math is correct. The article stated that it was well known that Tiberius actually hated his mother and did not attend to her while she was dying or go to her funeral due to some grudge. After her death he removed any honorium of her name, including minted coins. My further understanding was that Pilate had minted coins with Greek coded dates on them according to the year of Tiberius. One of them, coded to the 16th year of Tiberius, also contained honors to the empress. The 16th year of Tiberias by normative reckoning should clearly decode to AD 30. The problem is that would clearly be a year after her death. Sure enough, the following year, stamped 17th year of Tiberius has no mention of the Empress, nor does any successive year of minted coins thereafter. If TIberias was behind deleting her name off the coins, Pilate being politically astute, one would think the 15th (AD 29) and 16th years (AD 30) would already have no reference to her. Is it possible the dating does indeed follow Tiberius co-princeps? Sorry if this is an annoyance but I just don't like to leave stones un-turned and wondering if you have possiblly heard about this.
In Christ, John 17:20
Firstly, as I said before, the Romans didn't date by the years of the Emperor but according to the Consuls or AUC scale (abs urbs condita).
It is sometimes very difficult to date Imperial coinage as they usually have no dates on them at all. They are dated by iconography, titles and individuals portrayed on them.

Secondly, if a coin has greek lettering or a date, chances are it is non-Roman and comes from a client kingdom. Pilate would not have minted such coins and therefore it cannot be used to date Roman events as is likely a copy of other Roman coins previously issued. The Tetrarch Phillip is known to have minted a copy of a coin depicting Livia with a bushel of wheat.

Thirdly, Livia was depicted on a series of coins in 22 AD after recovering from an illness, the last time she would be depicted in Tiberius' reign. These bore the legend XXIIII for 24 after her name. Such a random section of numbers following an imperial name is not uncommon, but they do not refer to dates but to the alloy of gold and silver used in the coin's manufacture.
Simple math tells me that wherever you got your information, he made an error of confusing this minters' code for a date. If erroneously taken as a date, this would put 22 AD as the 24th year and put the '30th year' as 28 AD. It is quite a silly mistake to make though.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

John 1720

Harvest Worker
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2013
1,017
445
Massachusetts
✟149,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Firstly, as I said before, the Romans didn't date by the years of the Emperor but according to the Consuls or AUC scale (abs urbs condita).
It is sometimes very difficult to date Imperial coinage as they usually have no dates on them at all. They are dated by iconography, titles and individuals portrayed on them.

Secondly, if a coin has greek lettering or a date, chances are it is non-Roman and comes from a client kingdom. Pilate would not have minted such coins and therefore it cannot be used to date Roman events as is likely a copy of other Roman coins previously issued. The Tetrarch Phillip is known to have minted a copy of a coin depicting Livia with a bushel of wheat.

Thirdly, Livia was depicted on a series of coins in 22 AD after recovering from an illness, the last time she would be depicted in Tiberius' reign. These bore the legend XXIIII for 24 after her name. Such a random section of numbers following an imperial name is not uncommon, but they do not refer to dates but to the alloy of gold and silver used in the coin's manufacture.
Simple math tells me that wherever you got your information, he made an error of confusing this minters' code for a date. If erroneously taken as a date, this would put 22 AD as the 24th year and put the '30th year' as 28 AD. It is quite a silly mistake to make though.
Again, please note #5 was an inquiry and not a statement of fact, which I prefaced by saying I am certainly not a coin expert. I don't think we are speaking of the same coins as these were circulated in Judea. While I was unable to find the article in my files (they are a bit disorganized) I was able to find the coins on the internet. Perhaps if I have more time today I'll be able to check my files more thoroughly. The coins do appear to be real though as multiple sources refer to them. It appears you are quite knowledgeable about coins from this period so appreciate your opinion in vetting these.
Thank you,
In Christ. John 17:20
The Coins of Pontius Pilate

Roman Procurator coinage - Wikipedia
Pontius Pilate: Coins Ancient | eBay
Judaea, Pontius Pilate, ancient coins index with thumbnails - WildWinds.com

Edit: found another
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Again, please note #5 was an inquiry and not a statement of fact, which I prefaced by saying I am certainly not a coin expert. I don't think we are speaking of the same coins as these were circulated in Judea. While I was unable to find the article in my files (they are a bit disorganized) I was able to find the coins on the internet. Perhaps if I have more time today I'll be able to check my files more thoroughly. The coins do appear to be real though as multiple sources refer to them. It appears you are quite knowledgeable about coins from this period so appreciate your opinion in vetting these.
Thank you,
In Christ. John 17:20
The Coins of Pontius Pilate

Roman Procurator coinage - Wikipedia
Pontius Pilate: Coins Ancient | eBay
Judaea, Pontius Pilate, ancient coins index with thumbnails - WildWinds.com
These are authentic coins of Pilate's reign, but they aren't Imperial Roman coins, but local provincial issue. They would not be legal tender far outside Judaea.
Usually because of their small denomination, their inscriptions aren't of high quality and mistakes are common as they were made on the cheap. They also tend to remain much the same for long periods.

I had thought you were referring to depictions of Livia, but these only bear titles. Livia disappeared from coinage after her death and Tiberius not honouring her, but there was a delay in provincial coins bearing titulature as their stamps weren't commonly recut. One cannot make much in the way of conclusions from them therefore.

Out of interest's sake, was this the article you were thinking of?

Coins of Gratus and Pilate under Tiberius
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: John 1720
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

John 1720

Harvest Worker
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2013
1,017
445
Massachusetts
✟149,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
These are authentic coins of Pilate's reign, but they aren't Imperial Roman coins, but local provincial issue. They would not be legal tender far outside Judaea.
Thank you sir, I do appreciate your vetting the coins as authentic. According to where these have been found I'd agree the distribution was Judea and Syria but that would be within Luke's domain. The claim surrounding these coins is that they have also been found in Antioch, which many guess is where Luke hailed from.
Usually because of their small denomination, their inscriptions aren't of high quality and mistakes are common as they were made on the cheap. They also tend to remain much the same for long periods.
As I've been looking a little deeper there are some in very good condition that are more costly.
I had thought you were referring to depictions of Livia, but these only bear titles. Livia disappeared from coinage after her death and Tiberius not honouring her, but there was a delay in provincial coins bearing titulature as their stamps weren't commonly recut. One cannot make much in the way of conclusions from them therefore.
You are correct I was. The notes I have on them state:
"Apart from the dates, the texts on Pilate's coinage consisted of only three different words : - TIBEPIOY KAICAPOC (Of Tiberius Emperor) on all three coins;
IOYLIA KAICAPOC (Empress Julia) added to the coin of year 29."
Pontius Pilate Coins: Introduction

Out of interest's sake, was this the article you were thinking of?

Coins of Gratus and Pilate under Tiberius
Yes, thank you, I think that may have been the article or at least contained the sublink. I'll have to examine it against my notes. I'm a sheer novice at ancient coins but trying to come up to speed as I find they do indeed have value in bringing history to life.
Shroud of Turin coins may finally have been identified
Thanks Again :)
In Christ, John 17:20



Pilate_Gorny&Mosch_Auction125_Lot328_2_05g.jpg
T
The coins of Pontius Pilate come in two styles. On the front (obverse) of the 1st type is the symbol of the simpulum which was a Roman wine container used in Roman religious ceremonies. This symbol would probably have offended the local Jewish population and this coin was only produced in 29 AD at which time Pilate's coinage was redesigned. The Greek inscription on the front is TIBEPIOY KAICAPOC which means [coin] of Emperor Tiberius. The reverse inscription is IOYLIA KAICAPOC which translates to Empress Julia, mother of Tiberius. The reverse symbol is three stalks of grain and appears to have no special meaning.

Although hard to see on this coin, there is a date in Greek on the obverse, LIς = Year 16, referring to the 16th year of Tiberius' rule as Emperor of Rome. The second type of coin of Pontius Pilate, with the symbol on the front being a lituus, or curved wooden staff, is traditionally attributed to having been produced in 30 and 31 AD only. However, some scholars believe it was first produced in 29 AD as there are several specimens that have LIς which would equate to Year 16. As the first type with the grain stalks was not produced after Year 16.

it is quite plausible the coins of the second type with the lituus staff were first produced towards the end of Year 16 to replace the first type. The second type then would have continued on for Year 17 & Year 18. The lituus staff was used in Roman ceremonies related to astrology but it is conceivable to pass it off as shepherd's staff. The inscription again was TIBEPIOY KAICAPOC which means [coin] of Emperor Tiberius. The reverse symbol was a laurel wreath with an inscription listing the date of the coin in Greek, either LIZ ( L = Year, I = 10 + Z = 7) for Year 17 = 30 AD or LIH for Year 18 = Year 31 AD. There are other well documented inscription errors on some coins which either would be a sign of carelessness or ignorance on the part of the coin engraver. Therefore, the coin with LIZ for Year 17 = 30 AD is taken to be the year of crucifixion.



Year17_PontiusPilateLarge200.jpg
Year18_PontiusPilate__200.jpg

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

John 1720

Harvest Worker
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2013
1,017
445
Massachusetts
✟149,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
How many times have you heard the term "the three year ministry of Jesus" or "the three and a half year ministry of Jesus" or that Jesus was 33 years old? If you have been a Christian for as long as I have (57 years), you have probably heard all of these quite a number of times. Ever ask where these terms came from? I know why people have used them, and I know why people have believed them, but are they accurate? If you know me at all, you know that I don't usually ask such a question if the answer is obvious. So what are YOUR answers and thoughts on this subject?
Hi Greg, whatever happened to this thread? I thought there was some pretty interesting dialog going on but it seems to have rolled off an abrupt cliff. Did everyone just lose interest or go on vacation?
Thanks, Patrick
 
Upvote 0

Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,536
4,621
71
Las Vegas
✟342,224.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hi Greg, whatever happened to this thread? I thought there was some pretty interesting dialog going on but it seems to have rolled off an abrupt cliff. Did everyone just lose interest or go on vacation?
Thanks, Patrick
I think both main sides were stated, and people agree with one or the other and just leave it at that. Thanks for your interest.
 
Upvote 0

John 1720

Harvest Worker
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2013
1,017
445
Massachusetts
✟149,070.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I think both main sides were stated, and people agree with one or the other and just leave it at that. Thanks for your interest.
Ok thanks. Because of the sidebars I don't know if I ever really finished articulating my position about how long His ministry really was. Just for the record I base the start of Jesus ministry (This would be His Baptismal ministry not the year of our Lord ministry, which He declared in Nazareth) on the closest date from His baptism which we can infer. Again that is captured in John 2:19-21 . The context of the negative retort was based on the historical Herodian Temple reconstruction project, which at the time had progressed 46 years.
And I base His glorious ministerial finish according to the necessary double Sabbath that John alludes to, in conjunction with the Hebrew calendar, which necessitates back to back Sabbaths (i.e. Passover beginning Thursday night bleeding over to the weekly Friday night Sabbath, ending on Saturday evening after sunset). I believe we need to find dates that would necessarily have to align. That would mean Nissan 15 would have had to begun on a Thursday evening and the normal Friday evening start of the Sabbath was Nissan 16. That only leaves in play, for the possible years, AD 27, AD 30, AD 31, AD 34 and AD 37 according to the Hebrew calendar, which I reference below. The obvious choices, in my opinion, are two; them being April 6th AD 30 or April 25th AD 31.
Since the coins on the Shroud date to AD 29, yes I'm a convinced TS proponent see below, we can eliminate AD 27, which can also eliminate by Jesus speaking at the temple in AD 28 as well. John 2:19-21
Since He was crucified under Pilate who was the prefect in the years AD 26 to AD36 we can also eliminate the late date of AD 37.
So we are left with three choices AD 30, AD 31 and possibly AD 34. However I think AD 34 is a statistical outlier, since it is unreasonable to think there would have been a break in Jesus' ministry and there is good reason to believe His ministry was contiguous and not interrupted.

Other possible indirect considerations I'm aware of are:
  1. there was also a lunar eclipse on April 25th Nissan 15 in AD 31 which would have occurred the night or early AM when Jesus was captured by the Sanhedrin's goon squad. I'm not sure of the relevancy because nothing is mentioned of it in the Gospels. Sometimes, however, God does use astronomical markers so don't want to dismiss it outright.
  2. Maybe another coincidence for AD 31 is that it lines up with 40 years before the destruction of the temple by inclusive year Jewish reckoning. Again I'm not aware of any prophesy that ties the two together but it is interesting.
However, I'm still swayed by the bigger factor of there being the three (3) traditional Passovers mentioned in the Gospels. So I'm still leaning towards a 3+ year ministry ending in AD 30 as the most likely choice, while not completely ruling out AD 31.
Of course this postulate is heavily predicated on the above reference calendar that I used being correct. I am aware that dates before the 4th century can get somewhat dicey between the Roman calendar and the Hebrew calendar. However, I do think the double Sabbath helps to greatly explain the allusion Jesus made to Jonah as the sign He would give, with respect to the 3 days and 3 nights recorded in Matthew 12:40 Luke 11:30. With the double Sabbath Jesus would have spent Thursday, Friday and Saturday night in the tomb, and of course fits with being raised on the 3rd day, which actually began at sunset the night before but Sunrise with Sonrise would have coincided. This not only fits well with Jonah's 3 days and nights but it also fits the post mortem appraisal of the man, or more rightly the Son of Man, on Shroud. Their estimate was about 72 hours due to swelling indicators. The double Sabbath also clearly explains why the ladies waited until the dawn Sunday morning to set out in order to embalm the body of Jesus. I have been to the Garden tomb and can easily infer they would not have set out after the sunset completion of the ordinary Sabbath that Saturday evening. It simply would have been much too difficult and their task would have required natural lighting in order for them to accomplish what they came for. Predawn makes perfect sense for their journey.

The other factor for Korban Pesach preparation is theological alignment with the both the Passover symbolism and the seventh day on which the Lord rested from His works, in this case in the tomb. The Paschal preparation day for the slaughter of the Lamb of God would have been that Thursday Matthew 27:45 sometime after noon to just after three PM when darkness fell upon the land, according to the Bible We can get a rough idea from sunrise/sunset tables.

  • The slaughter of the Passover Lambs and our Passover Lamb of God was therefore on Nissan 14. ‘Bein ha arbayim I am told that translates as between the settings of the Sun and infers midday, which is variable. This lines up with Oral tradition. Korban Pesach would then have began on 14 Nissan around midday and the high Sabbath would have begun at sunset, when the Lord rested from His Works in the Garden Tomb. Clearly Joseph waited until after the death of Jesus before requesting the body from Pilate as the Gospel alludes to so preparation before entombing Him was probably just about three hours, with completion of the task coinciding with the end of Preparation Day.
    • AD 31 - Calculating out from 12:37 PM and adding three hours to 15:37, the adding time for Pilate's approval would have given him roughly 3 hours. They would have had from approximately 4:30 PM to about 7:30 PM to recover and prepare the Lord's body before the High Sabbath began giving them time to get home before sunset for the Passover.
    • AD 30 - would give a little less time but both were doable with the kind of preparation that we see on the Shroud image.
upload_2017-5-25_12-17-21.png


Anyhow for what it is worth that would be my opinion but I could certainly be convinced otherwise if anyone could shed more light on the subject. The more information the better we would be able to assess. I just spent my two cents worth.

Thanks for generating the thread Greg.
In Christ, Patrick John 17:20
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AFrazier

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 1, 2016
1,133
338
52
Mauldin, South Carolina
✟159,750.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Ok thanks. Because of the sidebars I don't know if I ever really finished articulating my position about how long His ministry really was. Just for the record I base the start of Jesus ministry (This would be His Baptismal ministry not the year of our Lord ministry, which He declared in Nazareth) on the closest date from His baptism which we can infer. Again that is in John 2, and based on the historical Herodian Temple reconstruction project, which at the time had progressed 46 years.
And I base His glorious ministerial finish according to the necessary double Sabbath that John alludes to, in conjunction with the Hebrew calendar, which necessitates back to back Sabbaths (i.e. Passover beginning Thursday night bleeding over to the weekly Friday night Sabbath, ending on Saturday evening after sunset). I believe we need to find dates that would necessarily have to align. That would mean Nissan 15 would have had to fall on a Thursday evening and the normal Sabbath being Nissan 16. That only years in play that this happened was in AD 27, AD 30, AD 31 and AD 37 according to the Hebrew calendar I reference below. The obvious choices are two then is April 6th AD 30 or April 25th AD 31.
Since the coins on the Shroud date to AD 29, yes I'm a convinced TS proponent see below, it could not have been AD 27, nor could it have been AD 37; since Pilate, prefect of Judea AD 26-36, was gone by then. Possibly AD 34 but I think that is a stretch, since it is unreasonable to think there would have been a break in Jesus' ministry and there is good reason to believe it was contiguous.
There was also a lunar eclipse on April 25th Nissan 15 in AD 31 which would have been the night Jesus was captured by the Sanhedrin goon squad but nothing is mentioned in the Gospels. Maybe another coincidence for AD 31 is that is 40 years before the destruction of the temple by inclusive year Jewish reckoning. But I'm still locked into the bigger factor being the traditional 3 Passover. So I'm still leaning towards a 3+ year ministry ending in AD 30 as the most likely choice.
Of course all of this relies on the reference calendar I used above being correct and dates before the 4th century can get somewhat dicey. But I do think the double Sabbath explains the allusion Jesus made to Jonah with respect to the 3 days Matthew 12:40 Luke 11:30. He would have spent Thursday, Friday and Saturday night in the tomb as well as being raised on the 3rd day. The double Sabbath also explains why the ladies waited until the dawn Sunday morning to set out in order to embalm the body of Jesus. I have been to the Garden tomb and can easily infer they would not have set out after the sunset completion of the ordinary Sabbath that Saturday evening. It simply would have been much too difficult and required natural light to do what they came for.

The other factor is that this has the preparation day for the slaughter of the Lamb of God on Thursday Matthew 27:45 noon to three PM when darkness fell upon the land. Sunset would have occurred at approximately

  • The slaughter of the Passover Lambs and our Passover Lamb of God was therefore on Nissan 14. ‘Bein ha arbayim I am told translates as between the settings of the Sun and infers midday. This lines up with Oral tradition. Korban Pesach would then have began on 14 Nissan around midday and the high Sabbath would have begun at sunset, when the Lord rested from His Works in the Garden Tomb. Clearly Joseph waited until the death of Jesus before requesting the body from Pilate as the Gospel alludes to so preparation before entombing Him was probably just about three hours coinciding with the end of Preparation Day.
    • AD 31 - Calculating out from 12:37 PM and adding three hours to 15:37, the adding time for Pilate's approval would have given him roughly 3 hours. They would have had from approximately 4:30 PM to about 7:30 PM to recover and prepare the Lord's body before the High Sabbath began giving them time to get home before sunset for the Passover.

View attachment 197579

Anyhow for what it is worth that would be my opinion but could be convinced otherwise if anyone could shed more light on the subject.
Thanks for generating the thread Greg.

In Christ, Patrick John 17:20
There's plenty of reason to believe there was a break between the baptism and the start of his ministry. Simply put, his ministry didn't start until John the Baptist was arrested.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: John 1720
Upvote 0