Have you heard?

visionary said:

Moscow Court Considers A Ban On Adventist Church As Over 12 million Sign Petition

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Not surprising. Plenty of my evangelical friends were celebrating when the Jehovah's Witnesses were banned from the country. My question for those who celebrated was "who is next?" I guess now we know. It will not be long before the Orthodox Church is all that they have.

?????

They must have changed their laws. Right after the fall of the USSR, the Russian Federation placed a ban (mostly aimed at Hare Krishnas and JWs) that on any religious group or denomination that did not exist on Russian soil before the 1919 revolution.

SDA was surely not in Russia before that.

tstor said:

Not surprising. Plenty of my evangelical friends were celebrating when the Jehovah's Witnesses were banned from the country. My question for those who celebrated was "who is next?" I guess now we know. It will not be long before the Orthodox Church is all that they have.

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Am wondering if the Orthodox church opposes this or affirms it. Maybe someone is attempting to smear the EO by placing pictures along with this news item that makes it appear that the EO/RO is behind it.

Recall that religious intolerance was one factor that created the soviet government to start with.

Is this just a "repeat"??

Is this just a "necessary step" to get them going backwards a few decades?

As we all know this same sort of religious intolerance was used in Syria to wipe or as many Christian denominations as possible - that were not EO affiliated.

Two of the most historically non-violent Christian denominations in the world are the JW's and the SDAs. As compared to other groups in Russia with a huge history of violence.

How "instructive" that they would attack to two most pacifist first.

I'm not saying that it is implausible that something like this eventually will happen, however, the websites who reported this doesn't seem too serious. A couple of commentators have straight out called this "fake news".

See the following comments:

Is Russia Considering Ban On Adventists?
Russia Considering Ban On Adventists?

Ubuntu said:

I'm not saying that it is implausible that something like this eventually will happen, however, the websites who reported this doesn't seem too serious. A couple of commentators have straight out called this "fake news".

See the following comments:

Is Russia Considering Ban On Adventists?
Russia Considering Ban On Adventists?

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Something happened in the middle of last year that got SDAs calling for fasting and prayer as they appealed for the courts not to approve the proposal. Apparently that much is true - and that proposal of 2016 did pass.

A few SDAs have been arrested under that new rule - that appears to be fact as well. But I don't know about that petition with 12 million signatures for SDAs to be banned in May of 2017. Not sure if that is legit news or not.

BobRyan said:

Two of the most historically non-violent Christian denominations in the world are the JW's and the SDAs.

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I would object to calling the JWs a "Christian denomination" as they deny the divinity of Christ.

Dave-W said:

I would object to calling the JWs a "Christian denomination" as they deny the divinity of Christ.

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Do you claim it is ok to confiscate all their church property - turn it over to the state- make it illegal to speak of their faith? or do they also have free will?

BobRyan said:

Do you claim it is ok to confiscate all their church property - turn it over to the state- make it illegal to speak of their faith? or do they also have free will?

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My statement about them not being truly Christian stands regardless of these points.

Your points would be equally valid concerning the Hare Krishnas. I see little in scripture (NT or OT) to suggest that we tolerate those preaching another religion.

Your question sounds more political than faith-based. (as in the freedoms in the US Constitution) Since that is another country, I cannot answer it from that perspective.

So, can you tell me if the SDA was in Russia prior to the Bolshevik Revolution?

Dave-W said:

My statement about them not being truly Christian stands regardless of these points.

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I am not arguing that all their doctrine is correct. I am arguing that Christians have no business persecuting others. And there is not one shred of evidence of them doing such a thing in the NT - not even when sharp heresies were arising inside the NT church. Much less persecuting non-Christians.

Your points would be equally valid concerning the Hare Krishnas.

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Agreed. If we start tossing them all in jail for daring to express opinions that differ, or for sharing faith or we confiscate all their property and turn it over to the state to profit from such a crime - we do evil.

I see little in scripture (NT or OT) to suggest that we tolerate those preaching another religion.

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Until you read the New Testament where we find not ONE case of Christians stealing property, jailing those that oppose them, tormenting, torturing, etc nor even asking the government to "do it for them".

Russia is not a Theocracy and neither was Rome at the time of the NT church - it was only under the OT theocracy that civil laws could get into the realm of "thought police" of persecuting someone for having a different religious practice or belief.

No not one single case of the "thought police" tactics in NT trying to invoke the civil authorities

Your question sounds more political than faith-based. (as in the freedoms in the US Constitution) Since that is another country, I cannot answer it from that perspective.

So, can you tell me if the SDA was in Russia prior to the Bolshevik Revolution?

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We have been there a long time. And were one of the "certified" groups approved in the 1990's when the human-rights freedoms opened up in Russia. But that is beside the point here.

In the 1800's we had one of our first missionaries sent to Russia

1886, the General Conference of the Adventist Church sent him to work in Europe. He traveled widely throughout Germany, Switzerland, Russia, Turkey, Romania and Hungary

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But my point is that there is NO NT justification for persecuting others on "thought crime" basis via appeals to civil authority. Not one shred of evidence support. All we have is "Love your neighbor as yourself" Matt 22 and yet we have MANY examples in 1 Tim 1, Titus 1, Jude 1 3 John 1 where many times they are confronted with "differing opinion" even inside the church - and they did not appeal to civil authority to torment their opponents. This is beyond question.

The Muslims where perhaps the first in Europe to "convert people at the point of the sword" I think it was "Saladin" who did it. That is THEIR way - it is not the way of the NT church in the actual Bible.

BobRyan said:

In the 1800's we had one of our first missionaries sent to Russia

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OK. That is good to know.

But my point is that there is NO NT justification for persecuting others on "thought crime" basis via appeals to civil authority.

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That kind of depends on how you interpret the OT commands on setting up government.

• Was that JUST for the Land as described in Deuteronomy and Joshua, or was it for all countries that God's people exist in?
  
• Was it just for 1500 bc or is that also still in effect today?
  
• Was it just for Jews or does it include Gentiles also?

Without answering these questions, it would be difficult to formulate a position on that.

Dave-W said:

OK. That is good to know.

That kind of depends on how you interpret the OT commands on setting up government.

• Was that JUST for the Land as described in Deuteronomy and Joshua, or was it for all countries that God's people exist in?
  
• Was it just for 1500 bc or is that also still in effect today?
  
• Was it just for Jews or does it include Gentiles also?

Without answering these questions, it would be difficult to formulate a position on that.

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Almost all Christian groups/denominations etc agree that we are not under a theocracy - Israel had God as "king" but no nation since then has had that structure. Your argument is that in the OT with God as king - they could have some of these "opinion" laws where someone who believed something different and acted on that belief in terms of worshiping an idol - could under some circumstances -- if they were of the Jewish religion - be persecuted.

But that is not ever seen in the NT -- even though in Titus 1, Jude 1, 1 Tim 1, Acts 19 we have clear examples of heresy... apostacy arising. But in the case with Russia they are not proposing the torment of RO - but the torment of NON-RO ... nothing at all like that even in the OT. Idol worshipers often came to Israel or moved there - they were not killed for failing to convert.

BobRyan said:

Almost all Christian groups/denominations etc agree that we are not under a theocracy - Israel had God as "king" but no nation since then has had that structure.

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And it is clear that we absolutely do not have that now. But we will in the Messianic Kingdom (aka the Millenium).

The question is "SHOULD we be trying to have that now?" I am personally undecided on that point.

This has been proven to be a HOAX. Russia is not 'debating' whether to ban SDAism or not. This is a made up story.

Move on.

I see an ignorance of what the OT really says here on persecution and who God said for the Israelites to destroy.

Exodus 12 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to theLord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.:

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Numbers 15: 14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord; as ye do, so he shall do.
15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as yeare, so shall the stranger be before the Lord.
16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

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Numbers 15: 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.*n4
30 ¶But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.*n5

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There was no difference made between the "stranger" and the Israelite in the OT laws. The coi were reminded to treat the stranger as one of them because they knew what it was like to be slaves themselves.

Exodus 22 21 ¶Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.:

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God did tell them to exterminate the nations that were a threat to them and to get rid of all those nations that lived in Caanan when they went in to possess it. That was to keep them from idolatry, and idolatrous influences after they settled down in the land. However, all of that would have been unnecessary had they exhibited faith in God to take care of them. They only reason they had to fight was because they rebelled and would not trust God when the spies sent into Caanan returned and said there were giants in the land. Had they obeyed God He said He would have sent in hornets and driven everyone out before them.

The OT laws of ancient Israel said that there was one law for the "stranger" and the "homeborn". In other words, there was to be no persecution of Gentile or foreigner. God told the Israelites they were not to vex nor opress the stranger for they were once strangers in Egypt. This info can be found in Exodus 12 and 20, and Numbers 15.

And, if the Israelites had trusted God, God would never have given them instructions to exterminate the Canaanites when they got to Canaan. He would have sent hornets into the land to drive the Canaanites out. All that following bloodshed was due to their lack of faith.

That was odd. My first post disappeared. I refreshed the page, went to other pages on this site and it still wasn't visible so I wrote the second. Very odd.

Dave-W said:

And it is clear that we absolutely do not have that now. But we will in the Messianic Kingdom (aka the Millenium).

The question is "SHOULD we be trying to have that now?" I am personally undecided on that point.

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At the 2nd coming we will have it.

2 Cor 4:4 - Satan is the "god of this world" according to Paul.
Matt 4:4 Satan reminds Jesus of that fact as the 3rd temptation in the wilderness.