LDS Mormon Jesus was not always God

dzheremi said:

No, that's the Mormon way of doing things. The Christian way is to hold fast to the traditions that you have received whether by word or by writing (2 Thessalonians 2:15). It's not to trust the purity or sincerity of your own heart and intentions, as the Bible has other words about that -- words of warning: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

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Again, you resist prayer and receiving the HS as a messenger of God to tell the truth to humans, and you would rather hold to your traditions. You need to read the scriptures again. Just try counting how many ways, just in the NT that Jesus and the apostles tell us to pray and receive the HS to know the truth of all things.

It is a good thing that the Jewish Christians did not hold to their traditions. It is a good thing that gentile Christians did not hold to their traditions.

Traditions are not the truth tellers necessarily, it is by receiving the testimony from God, mainly through the HS that you know. That is why Jesus told Peter that it was not through man (traditions) that he knew that Jesus was the Son of God, but it was by God, and through the HS. It is by this method that Peter and the apostles knew Jesus was the Messiah.

So you stick with your traditions, good and bad. I will stick with God and the HS.

BTW, how often do you pray? And why do you even pray?

I've noticed that whenever the particular topic of Mormon epistemology comes up, our Mormon posters tend to make any reply I make out to be me telling others that they should be more like me/do what I do. I'm not sure where this is coming from, but anyway I find it to be very inappropriate and wish that it would stop. I do not assume that Mormons are posting so as to pressure us all to be Mormons, or if they are it's obviously not working. I wish they would grant me the same courtesy and stop replying to my posts as though I am saying things that I am not saying.

Peter1000 said:

Again, you resist prayer and receiving the HS as a messenger of God to tell the truth to humans, and you would rather hold to your traditions.

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Case in point, you'd think that with all the times that Mormons have claimed this (this is at least the second time I can remember from you in particular, Peter, and also Jane Doe has done this), you'd think that you could show where I am doing so.

Go on. I'll wait.

That's clearly not what's happening, but Mormon posters such as yourself tend to think of things in terms by which Mormonism is the default position, therefore if a person objects to Mormon epistemology, then they must be rejecting the Holy Spirit Himself, as of course the Holy Spirit works the way that Mormons claim! According to this "you're either with us or against Him" kind of (probably subconscious) thinking, there cannot be any way that a person may receive the Holy Spirit according to the tradition of the Church (you know...the church is in apostasy and all that), only according to Mormon tradition.

Well I am not a Mormon, obviously, and in accordance with the above where I do not tell others that they need to follow my way in particular, I would appreciate less of this thinking (and less of the below) being directed at me in particular.

You need to read the scriptures again.

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No. There is no reading of the Bible by which I will magically accept the Mormon espitemology which is thoroughly contradicted by the same and the ancient witness of the Church of which I am a member. It's not a matter of how many times it is read; it's a matter of Mormon epistemology being wrong at its base.

Just try counting how many ways, just in the NT that Jesus and the apostles tell us to pray and receive the HS to know the truth of all things.

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How would that make a difference in what I have already written? Again, you are assuming that your charge against me that I am rejecting the Holy Spirit is true because you assume that it is, and that your Mormon tradition is true while Christian tradition is not. There is no reason to assume that.

It is a good thing that the Jewish Christians did not hold to their traditions. It is a good thing that gentile Christians did not hold to their traditions.

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On what basis do you claim these things? Christians can point to actual historical events like the apostolic council at Jerusalem wherein the Church decided the relationship between the Jewish traditions and the law of the Church. They did not just throw out all Jewish tradition or all gentile tradition because the early Church hated tradition as a thing. In the original Greek of the NT, Christians are warned to keep certain tradition called the "tradition of God" (paradosis tou Theou) and to reject certain tradition called "the tradition of men" (paradosis tis anthropos). In either case, they are tradition -- paradosis. (I'm pointing this out because some translations of the Bible which seek to inspire doubts in tradition will translate the 'good' kind of tradition using a different word entirely -- e.g., 'teaching' or similar -- while the 'bad' kind of tradition will be called tradition, even though in Greek they are the same word.)

So I don't believe that you can make such a broad statement. Yes, it's certainly a good thing that certain traditions were not kept, but without certain other traditions we would not have our religion as we received it from our fathers and masters the apostles and their disciples, and to be frank about it I care a lot more about my religion than some sort of silly a priori principle that regards tradition as bad just because a completely different religion like Mormonism may teach that it is so in accordance with its own view of Christianity. That doesn't matter. Mormonism does not matter at all. The Church to which I belong was established by St. Mark the apostle approximately 1750 years before your religion's prophet was even born. He and the religion that he founded and everything that it brought to the world are completely irrelevant to the established faith of the historic Christian Church.

dzheremi said:

I've noticed that whenever the particular topic of Mormon epistemology comes up, our Mormon posters tend to make any reply I make out to be me telling others that they should be more like me/do what I do. I'm not sure where this is coming from, but anyway I find it to be very inappropriate and wish that it would stop.

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When you submit the sayings of a saint (for example) as evidence into this conversation, are you not doing so with the subtext that we should listen to them and accept them with some level of authority?

That's where the impression comes from: every time you submit such a quote you are pushing your entire epistemological and philosophy forward.

Jane_Doe said:

When you submit the sayings of a saint (for example) as evidence into this conversation, are you not doing so with the subtext that we should listen to them and accept them with some level of authority?

That's where the impression comes from: every time you submit such a quote you are pushing your entire epistemological and philosophy forward.

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It would be, I suppose, if I were to quote saints not agreed upon across all major historical streams of Christianity, but I make a concentrated effort to pick very generally-recognized leaders for just that reason: to demonstrate that what they have established is the norm in all historic/traditional Christianity, such that Mormonism's defiance of the same is really not a matter of me disagreeing with you (hence my objection that it is inappropriate to make it about me in particular), but shows a fundamental defect in this or that aspect of Mormonism as it relates to Christianity itself.

I will occasionally quote from my own church's particular texts if the point is to show a type of a more general tendency when that is under examination (e.g., our talks about the veneration of the cross involved quoting Coptic hymns, but also Roman/Latin, Syriac/Indian, etc.), but in the main these replies that say things like "You are saying that others should listen to you/follow you" are just off-base. Saying "this is not in keeping with the mainstream of traditional Christianity" is very different than saying "I am a traditional Christian, and you should all be too", because if the point is to say "here is evidence from the early Church itself that your claims are at variance with what you say is the Christian way", then the particulars of what I believe should be irrelevant except insofar as they may be appealed to on account of their antiquity in situations in which my interlocutor presupposes a later tradition (i.e., Mormon tradition) to be earlier. Then and only then is it appropriate to write, as I just did in my reply to Peter, that the much later tradition cannot be reasonably to be taken to be 'the Christian way', not for its particularity (as he is indeed correct that there are many verses in the Holy Bible that concern asking God, receiving the Holy Spirit, etc., and these are affirmed by Christian and Mormon alike), but for the radical departure from historic standards that results from the system set up via Mormon epistemology when it is followed without the moderating influence of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, in which spirits and the messages that they bring are tested.

In Christian terms, what Mormons are doing is not so different than what the Montanists did, as they too believed in direct, ecstatic prophecy by personal communication with the Holy Spirit supposedly received by Montanus and his two prophetesses Priscilla and Maximila, and that this prophecy would supercede what had been established in the Church. They were ultimately rejected when their prophecies were to found to be at variance with the faith, and so the Christian has no choice but to do the same with regard to Mormonism, not because s/he does not believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the Church and in the lives of the believers, but because the message that Mormonism brings (including its epistemology, which does not submit its 'revelations' to the Church, obviously, but instead has set up a parallel church structure on the supposed strength of said revelations) is at variance with Christianity at such a basic level.

dzheremi said:

It would be, I suppose, if I were to quote saints not agreed upon across all major historical streams of Christianity, but I make a concentrated effort to pick very generally-recognized leaders for just that reason: to demonstrate that what they have established is the norm in all historic/traditional Christianity, such that Mormonism's defiance of the same is really not a matter of me disagreeing with you (hence my objection that it is inappropriate to make it about me in particular), but shows a fundamental defect in this or that aspect of Mormonism as it relates to Christianity itself.

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Again: you're slamming your particular views forward, trying to convince the point that LDS aren't Christians and have no relationship with Christ. Honestly: I find it quite tiresome and having some people sayings (such as the saints) being continuously used to attack my relationship with Christ... it's starting to become a horrible taste in my mouth when it comes to these subjects. Not because of the people or the sayings themselves, but just having them continually be used as "you're not Christian!" pot shots.

dzheremi says:

Case in point, you'd think that with all the times that Mormons have claimed this (this is at least the second time I can remember from you in particular, Peter, and also Jane Doe has done this), you'd think that you could show where I am doing so.

Go on. I'll wait.

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In post #258, I was telling mmksparbud that she was not receiving an answer about Mormonism because she was not following the right path for that to happen.

So I gave her the right path, which was that she pray with a sincere heart having faith that God will answer her prayer. And it is through the HS that God communicates to people about such things, and through the HS we may know the truth of all things.

You responded immediately in post #259, and here is the beginning of that post:
"No, that's the Mormon way of doing things. The Christian way is to hold fast to the traditions that you have received whether by word or by writing".
Then you quote a scripture and make a point about you can't trust a deceitful heart.

So I, having read this, posted that you are here again railing against receiving an answer from God through prayer and the HS. It's a pretty good assumption from what you wrote that this is not the fashion that you receive your answers.

You made it very clear that you receive your answers by the oral and written traditions. Good luck with that.

And I ask an appropriate question then, why do you even pray then?

That's clearly not what's happening, but Mormon posters such as yourself tend to think of things in terms by which Mormonism is the default position,

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Ya think?

thinking, there cannot be any way that a person may receive the Holy Spirit according to the tradition of the Church

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The scriptures tell us to hold fast that which we know. It says lots of things about tradition, but nowhere to my knowledge does it say that we receive the HS according to the traditions of the church. And it is my testimony that your traditions on lots of things changed over the years. So much for traditions.

How would that make a difference in what I have already written? Again, you are assuming that your charge against me that I am rejecting the Holy Spirit is true because you assume that it is, and that your Mormon tradition is true while Christian tradition is not. There is no reason to assume that.

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Your tradition and the Mormon tradition for receiving answers to prayer through the HS should be exactly the same. And that comes from the bible. Which I am sure is part of your tradition.

Mormonism does not matter at all. The Church to which I belong was established by St. Mark the apostle approximately 1750 years before your religion's prophet was even born. He and the religion that he founded and everything that it brought to the world are completely irrelevant to the established faith of the historic Christian Church.

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Mormonism was established by God the Father and Jesus Christ who appeared to JS and told him he would be the prophet to open the last dispensation before the second coming of Christ.
So he was given the same keys that Jesus gave to Peter and with those keys, 12 apostles were chosen, the NT organization was established again and the truth of the gospel was restored to the earth.

Is is nice that St. Mark established your church, but it is by far more powerful that Jesus Christ established The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Staints. I revere St. Mark, but I worship Jesus Christ. I will stick with him.

Jane_Doe said:

Again: you're slamming your particular views forward, trying to convince the point that LDS aren't Christians and have no relationship with Christ. Honestly: I find it quite tiresome and having some people sayings (such as the saints) being continuously used to attack my relationship with Christ... it's starting to become a horrible taste in my mouth when it comes to these subjects. Not because of the people or the sayings themselves, but just having them continually be used as "you're not Christian!" pot shots.

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Well then you're free to place me on ignore, because it's neither a potshot nor even inaccurate to say that Mormonism is not a form of Christianity, precisely because of its purposeful variation from the mainstream of historic, traditional Christianity on basic matters of theology. The fact that the saints testify to this is simply a fact of history, as none but the most recent were even alive when Mormonism began. So it's not really possible to be faithful to the Christian tradition without faithfully reporting what they have said, as it's by their witness and the witness of the Christian faith more generally that we can say anything about any of these later traditions such as Mormonism (or Islam, or Oneness Pentecostalism, or what have you) and their claims to be the true faith. If we had only the Bible to fight over (assuming for the sake of argument that no saints were involved in writing it, preaching it, and canonizing it, which we obviously know is incorrect), and the Mormon interpretation were as likely as any due to the lack of historical witness concerning how it was interpreted or the faith more widely was interpreted and lived within the Church (presented by those same saints), then you would be absolutely correct that you guys are just as Christian as anyone, and it would be wrong to say otherwise, because there would be no basis for doing so. It'd be your ideas versus the mainstream Christian churches' ideas, and they'd be equally likely to be accepted.

But that is not the world we live in. If you want to get mad at me in particular for it because I quote the fathers so as to not simply argue from myself, that's fine, but I did not convoke the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem, nor write nor canonize any part of the New or Old Testament, nor found the schools at Alexandria, Antioch, or Edessa, nor bring Christianity to any given place, etc. All of these have shaped what Christianity is and isn't, and Mormonism is outside of all of them by its own choice. It's a bit silly to be mad about the consequences of that when nobody here has talked you into believing Joseph Smith instead of all of the history of Christianity which shows him to be a false prophet. Your religion, which I am going to assume you freely accepted, did that. So if you want to get upset with someone, wouldn't it make more sense to get upset with Joseph Smith? It's his ideas that you are following instead of Christianity, which is why your claims of Christianity are rejected by others (not just me). All that anyone who quotes a saint from before the 1820s is doing is showing how Christianity as it existed from X period has already dealt with the claims of your religion and found them to be false, which is absolutely right to do when we are presented with something claiming to be Christianity.

We judge by what we have received, because that's what we are told to do in the scriptures and the other witnesses to the life of the early Church. We are not told "test the spirits, unless that makes those who follow them upset that they are not being accepted based by whatever standard they'd like to be." That would be 'nicer', I guess (in a social sense, anyway), but that's just not what we are told to do.

To once again quote our father St. Jerome (source; emphasis added):

If, then, the apostle Peter, upon whom the Lord has founded the Church, has expressly said that the prophecy and promise of the Lord were then and there fulfilled, how can we claim another fulfillment for ourselves? If the Montanists reply that Philip's four daughters prophesied at a later date, and that a prophet is mentioned named Agabus, and that in the partition of the spirit, prophets are spoken of as well as apostles, teachers and others, and that Paul himself prophesied many things concerning heresies still future, and the end of the world; we tell them that we do not so much reject prophecy— for this is attested by the passion of the Lord— as refuse to receive prophets whose utterances fail to accord with the Scriptures old and new.

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If that sounds like it's against Mormonism, that's because it is (read: this same rationale is used in rejecting Mormonism), but I would note that it was written in 385, 1420 years before Joseph Smith was born. Again, these matters are settled since so long ago, it is a bit odd to make everything into a personal debate between you and I, or Peter and Phoebe Ann, or some other combination of Mormon and Christian poster.

dzheremi said:

Well then you're free to place me on ignore, because it's neither a potshot nor even inaccurate to say that Mormonism is not a form of Christianity, precisely because of its purposeful variation from the mainstream of historic, traditional Christianity on basic matters of theology. The fact that the saints testify to this is simply a fact of history, as none but the most recent were even alive when Mormonism began. So it's not really possible to be faithful to the Christian tradition without faithfully reporting what they have said, as it's by their witness and the witness of the Christian faith more generally that we can say anything about any of these later traditions such as Mormonism (or Islam, or Oneness Pentecostalism, or what have you) and their claims to be the true faith. If we had only the Bible to fight over (assuming for the sake of argument that no saints were involved in writing it, preaching it, and canonizing it, which we obviously know is incorrect), and the Mormon interpretation were as likely as any due to the lack of historical witness concerning how it was interpreted or the faith more widely was interpreted and lived within the Church (presented by those same saints), then you would be absolutely correct that you guys are just as Christian as anyone, and it would be wrong to say otherwise, because there would be no basis for doing so. It'd be your ideas versus the mainstream Christian churches' ideas, and they'd be equally likely to be accepted.

But that is not the world we live in. If you want to get mad at me in particular for it because I quote the fathers so as to not simply argue from myself, that's fine, but I did not convoke the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem, nor write nor canonize any part of the New or Old Testament, nor found the schools at Alexandria, Antioch, or Edessa, nor bring Christianity to any given place, etc. All of these have shaped what Christianity is and isn't, and Mormonism is outside of all of them by its own choice. It's a bit silly to be mad about the consequences of that when nobody here has talked you into believing Joseph Smith instead of all of the history of Christianity which shows him to be a false prophet. Your religion, which I am going to assume you freely accepted, did that. So if you want to get upset with someone, wouldn't it make more sense to get upset with Joseph Smith? It's his ideas that you are following instead of Christianity, which is why your claims of Christianity are rejected by others (not just me). All that anyone who quotes a saint from before the 1820s is doing is showing how Christianity as it existed from X period has already dealt with the claims of your religion and found them to be false, which is absolutely right to do when we are presented with something claiming to be Christianity.

We judge by what we have received, because that's what we are told to do in the scriptures and the other witnesses to the life of the early Church. We are not told "test the spirits, unless that makes those who follow them upset that they are not being accepted based by whatever standard they'd like to be." That would be 'nicer', I guess (in a social sense, anyway), but that's just not what we are told to do.

To once again quote our father St. Jerome (source; emphasis added):

If, then, the apostle Peter, upon whom the Lord has founded the Church, has expressly said that the prophecy and promise of the Lord were then and there fulfilled, how can we claim another fulfillment for ourselves? If the Montanists reply that Philip's four daughters prophesied at a later date, and that a prophet is mentioned named Agabus, and that in the partition of the spirit, prophets are spoken of as well as apostles, teachers and others, and that Paul himself prophesied many things concerning heresies still future, and the end of the world; we tell them that we do not so much reject prophecy— for this is attested by the passion of the Lord— as refuse to receive prophets whose utterances fail to accord with the Scriptures old and new.

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If that sounds like it's against Mormonism, that's because it is (read: this same rationale is used in rejecting Mormonism), but I would note that it was written in 385, 1420 years before Joseph Smith was born. Again, these matters are settled since so long ago, it is a bit odd to make everything into a personal debate between you and I, or Peter and Phoebe Ann, or some other combination of Mormon and Christian poster.

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Is this entire post not you pushing your views?

Earlier you asked:

dzheremi said:

our Mormon posters tend to make any reply I make out to be me telling others that they should be more like me/do what I do. I'm not sure where this is coming from

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This an example of you doing that very thing.

The interesting thing is that Mormons have taught for over a hundred years that non-Mormons aren't Christians. If the Bible and the Holy Spirit tell me that Mormonism isn't Christian, the Mormon will either claim that I wasn't listening to the Holy Spirit or wasn't worthy of the true answer.

Then when we try to point out the differences between Christianity and Mormonsm, they want others to sympathize with them on the supposed basis that they are being persecuted.

Phoebe Ann said:

The interesting thing is that Mormons have taught for over a hundred years that non-Mormons aren't Christians. If the Bible and the Holy Spirit tell me that Mormonism isn't Christian, the Mormon will either claim that I wasn't listening to the Holy Spirit or wasn't worthy of the true answer.

Then when we try to point out the differences between Christianity and Mormonsm, they want others to sympathize with them on the supposed basis that they are being persecuted.

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Phoebe, as soon as you see me deny your relationship with Christ, you'll have a case here. I celebrate your relationship with Christ, even though I disagree with some of your actions and beliefs. And yet I sit here continually listening to people deny my relationship with Christ- the very core of who I am.

This is why LDS misssionaries knock on our doors:

You are called to represent Jesus Christ in helping people become clean from their sins. You do this by inviting them to come unto Jesus Christ and become converted to His restored gospel. To come to the Savior they must have faith in Him unto repentance—making the necessary changes to bring their life into agreement with His teachings. You can help people develop such faith by teaching them the restored gospel by the Spirit and inviting them to commit to live according to its teachings. Keeping this commitment prepares them for the covenant of baptism and confirmation and the precious gift of the Holy Ghost. They are to put off the “natural man” and become a Saint “through the atonement of Christ the Lord” (Mosiah 3:19).
Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, (2004), 1: What Is My Purpose as a Missionary? 1–16
Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service 1: What Is My Purpose as a Missionary?

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it[the Holy Bible] goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13
1 Nephi 13

Phoebe Ann said:

This is why LDS misssionaries knock on our doors:

You are called to represent Jesus Christ in helping people become clean from their sins. You do this by inviting them to come unto Jesus Christ and become converted to His restored gospel. To come to the Savior they must have faith in Him unto repentance—making the necessary changes to bring their life into agreement with His teachings. You can help people develop such faith by teaching them the restored gospel by the Spirit and inviting them to commit to live according to its teachings. Keeping this commitment prepares them for the covenant of baptism and confirmation and the precious gift of the Holy Ghost. They are to put off the “natural man” and become a Saint “through the atonement of Christ the Lord” (Mosiah 3:19).
Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, (2004), 1: What Is My Purpose as a Missionary? 1–16
Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service 1: What Is My Purpose as a Missionary?

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it[the Holy Bible] goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13
1 Nephi 13

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No where in here does it say "deny their relationship with Christ, the parts of the Gospel they know, or disrespect them".

Again: I acknowledge and celebrate your relationship with Jesus Christ, Pheobe. Do you acknowledge and celebrate my relationship with Christ?

Jane_Doe said:

Phoebe, as soon as you see me deny your relationship with Christ, you'll have a case here. I celebrate your relationship with Christ, even though I disagree with some of your actions and beliefs. And yet I sit here continually listening to people deny my relationship with Christ- the very core of who I am.

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Um, you have, presumably, made a conscious decision to post on a forum which regards Mormonism as a non-Christian religion (please take that up with the moderators and owners of this website that you subscribe to)...you do not have to post here if your "core" is being attacked, there are many other forums out there to discuss the Mormon religion.

NYCGuy said:

Um, you have, presumably, made a conscious decision to post on a forum which regards Mormonism as a non-Christian religion (please take that up with the moderators and owners of this website that you subscribe to)...you do not have to post here if your "core" is being attacked, there are many other forums out there to discuss the Mormon religion.

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I am also a member of many LDS forums, other Christian forums, and various other religious forums. I'm passionate about interfaith dialogue and respect, even if the respect/passion is not always shared.

NYCGuy said:

Um, you have, presumably, made a conscious decision to post on a forum which regards Mormonism as a non-Christian religion (please take that up with the moderators and owners of this website that you subscribe to)...you do not have to post here if your "core" is being attacked, there are many other forums out there to discuss the Mormon religion.

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This site isn't out to hurt Mormons. It allows Christians to share the truth about our Triune God with Mormons for starters. We have to abide by the rules as well as they.

Christians and most Mormons aren't allowed in dedicated Mormon temples. I am a Protestant who was allowed in the Vatican.

Why would a Mormon try to convert a Catholic or Protestant to "come to Christ?"

Our beliefs and actions may differ from those of others, but we, as good Christians, do not criticize other religions or their adherents. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
- Joseph B. Wirthlin, “Christians in Belief and Action,” Ensign, Nov. 1996, p. 70

Mormon Apostle Melvin J. Ballard wrote:
This revelation clearly informs us that any man or woman, not only those in the days of Noah, who heard the Gospel and rejected it, but in this day any man or woman who has had a good chance to have heard the Gospel to receive it and embrace it and enjoy its blessings and privileges, who lived during their life in absolute indifference to these things, ignoring it, and neglected it, need not hope or anticipate that when they are dead the work can be done for them and they gain celestial glory. Don't you Latter-day Saints get the notion that a man or woman can live in defiance or total indifference, having had a good chance -- not a casual chance or opportunity -- and when they die you can go and do the work for that individual and have them receive every blessing that the faithful ones are entitled to. If that becomes the doctrine of the Church we will be worse than the Catholics who believe that you can pray a man out of purgatory. But they charge for it and we don't, so we would be more foolish than they. (Three Degrees of Glory, p.26)
See bottom of page 25 and top of page 26 on this link:
http://www.shields-research.org/Gen...llard_Melvin_J/01Three_Degrees_cap400x100.pdf

On September 9, 1860, Brigham Young addressed the “unbelievers” listening to him in the crowd and declared:

For unbelievers we will quote from the Scriptures— “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.” Again— “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God.” I will now give my scripture— “Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God to reveal the holy Gospel to the children of men, and lay the foundation for gathering Israel, and building up the kingdom of God on the earth, that spirit of God; and every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist, no matter whether it is found in a pulpit or on a throne, nor how much divinity it may profess, nor what it professes with regard to revealed religion and the account that is given of the Saviour and his Father in the Bible.
They may say that they acknowledge Him [Jesus and His Father] until doomsday, and he will never own them, nor bestow the Holy Spirit upon them, and they will never have visions of eternity opened to them, unless they acknowledge that Joseph Smith is sent of God. Such people I call unbelievers. They tell about believing in Jesus Christ, but they might as well talk about birds understanding the Hebrew language. This statement is no more positive than true. All whom I call unbelievers, if they will repent of their sins, obey the requirements in the New Testament, be baptized for the remission of sins by a man who holds the key and authority to lead them into the waters of baptism, and receive the laying on of hands for the Holy Ghost, shall receive a witness that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, and that he was sent of God to build up his kingdom in this last dispensation. You will receive a Spirit that will bring all things to your remembrance, past present, and to come, teaching you all things necessary for you to understand. There are but a few in this generation who will do this.
(Journal of Discourses 8:176-177)

Peter1000 said:

So I, having read this, posted that you are here again railing against receiving an answer from God through prayer and the HS. It's a pretty good assumption from what you wrote that this is not the fashion that you receive your answers.

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Where am I railing against receiving answers through prayer and the Holy Spirit? As I've made clear (not for the first time), the problem is not in believing that through prayer and supplication to God we may know the truth, but in trusting the heart as the arbiter of truth. If the Bible says that only God can know the heart (and it does, in the section of Jeremiah that I've already quoted), then we cannot trust ourselves to evaluate our own position vis-a-vis the purity of our own intentions. You can't "feel" your way into knowledge of God, and the Holy Spirit is not a feeling -- He is God. So the Mormon idea runs up against the opposition of the scriptures not because I am somehow grieving the Spirit (God forbid it; how else do you think literally any church on the planet today conceives of themselves as being guided?), but because it puts emotionalism in the place where some unwavering standard should be.

You made it very clear that you receive your answers by the oral and written traditions. Good luck with that.

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In accordance with the guidance of our fathers the holy apostles, yes, but again, this is not in opposition to listening to the Holy Spirit in any fashion but that you wish to portray it to be so in the context of an argument in which it is assumed that people either follow the Mormon way of doing things or "rail against" the Spirit, which is a false choice. The Holy Spirit has preserved the Church from its beginning to this very day and forever, so there is no conflict between the two.

And I ask an appropriate questions then, why do you even pray then?

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Why would I not pray? I don't understand how this is an appropriate or relevant question.

Ya think?

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Yes, yes...it is or would be obvious enough were it not for the reality wherein members of your religion protest not being seen as Christians, while the opposite is not happening. Do you think if I posted a quote from one of our fathers that absolutely destroys some aspect of Mormon belief and identified it as "the Mormon way" you wouldn't have exactly the same criticism of what I have posted, for the same reason? Simply stamping 'Christian' on whatever your conceive of as 'the way' does not make it so, if what you are advancing does not actually line up with what history (the scriptures, the fathers, the councils, etc.) shows us to be normative in the Christian life. This is precisely why Mormonism is not accepted as Christian in the first place by traditional Christians.

There is also the fact that we are on a Christian messageboard, making the presumption of the Mormon worldview a little odd. I don't go to Mormon messageboards and tell their inhabitants that what I believe and practice is Mormonism, whereas what they believe and practice is not.

The scriptures tell us to hold fast that which we know. It says lots of things about tradition, but nowhere to my knowledge does it say that we receive the HS according to the traditions of the church.

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Is this not the case with Mormonism as well, or are you now to receive the traditions as given to the very same Church which your own group was founded in opposition to? In that case, why do you not do so? Because although the Church is called the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15), and is seen by the Savior Himself as fit to hear disputes between brethren in those cases where individual conflicts remain unresolved at earlier stages (Matthew 18:15-17), which makes sense when you consider that we are to judge those who are inside of it (1 Corinthians 5:12), you still follow your own Mormon tradition in all things. That's the entire reason why you have this epistemology that you do.

In the Coptic Orthodox tradition in particular, it is a part of the rite of chrismation (which in the Coptic Church, like all Orthodox churches, is performed together with baptism, not temporally separated from it, as in Catholicism) that the newly baptized receive the Holy Spirit directly, by the same means by which Jesus Christ our Lord gave His disciples the power to forgive or retain sins as He sent them out into the world to preach Him (John 20:21-23). From the book "Rituals of the Sacraments" (part of the servants' training program in the Southern United States diocese):

After finishing the anointments, the priest places his hand on the child’s head,
saying, "May you be blessed by the blessings of the heavenly, and the blessings
of the angels. May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you in His name…After that he
breathes into the face of the child while saying “receive the Holy Spirit and be a
pure vessel…”

So, yes, we do receive the Holy Spirit according to the tradition of the Church, which is established in the Holy Bible by Christ Jesus our Lord and God and His holy apostles. I don't doubt that other churches also have the same or very similar rites, though I cannot comment on them in particular.

And really, is that so strange? We've talked about Pentecost lately, and that too was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the gathered assembly in Jerusalem, not upon individuals according to their means. Of course, we should be careful in how we conceive and communicate this, because I don't know of any Christian tradition which treats the Church as some kind of 'cage' for the Holy Spirit, but of course we believe that He operates within and guides our churches. It would be hard to deny that and still have a reason to be anything in particular (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, whatever).

And it is my testimony that your traditions on lots of things changed over the years. So much for traditions.

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You do not have a testimony regarding churches that you are not in. You have an opinion, which is worth about as much as my personal opinion of Mormonism would be to an active Mormon, for exactly the same reason.

Mormonism was established by God the Father and Jesus Christ who appeared to JS and told him he would be the prophet to open the last dispensation before the second coming of Christ.
So he was given the same keys that Jesus gave to Peter and with those keys, 12 apostles were chosen, the NT organization was established again and the truth of the gospel was restored to the earth.

Is is nice that St. Mark established your church, but it is by far more powerful that Jesus Christ established The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Staints. I revere St. Mark, but I worship Jesus Christ. I will stick with him.

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I think I've received enough warnings in the aftermath of hurting Mormon feelings to know bait when I see it. Suffice it to say, I disagree greatly with your assessment here.

Jane_Doe said:

No where in here does it say "deny their relationship with Christ, the parts of the Gospel they know, or disrespect them".

Again: I acknowledge and celebrate your relationship with Jesus Christ, Pheobe. Do you acknowledge and celebrate my relationship with Christ?

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Nobody can deny that Mormons are very nice, but it does say that Satan has great power over them by virtue of the fact that they are not Mormons/do not accept the Mormon 'restored gospel' and makes the not-provable claim that things have been removed from the gospel which they follow.

Phoebe Ann said:

We have to abide by the rules as well as they.

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The rules here are MUCH more restrictive for 2nd class non-Trinitarians on this site.

Phoebe Ann said:

Why would a Mormon try to convert a Catholic or Protestant to "come to Christ?"

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The same reason a Catholic would encourage a Protestant to learn out their faith and come in communion with Rome. Or an Evangelical would encourage a Catholic to be "born again" in the Evangelical faith.

dzheremi said:

That's clearly not what's happening, but Mormon posters such as yourself tend to think of things in terms by which Mormonism is the default position, therefore if a person objects to Mormon epistemology, then they must be rejecting the Holy Spirit Himself, as of course the Holy Spirit works the way that Mormons claim! According to this "you're either with us or against Him" kind of (probably subconscious) thinking, there cannot be any way that a person may receive the Holy Spirit according to the tradition of the Church (you know...the church is in apostasy and all that), only according to Mormon tradition.

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Are you making them so nervous that they want to make personal attacks?

dzheremi said:

How would that make a difference in what I have already written? Again, you are assuming that your charge against me that I am rejecting the Holy Spirit is true because you assume that it is, and that your Mormon tradition is true while Christian tradition is not. There is no reason to assume that.

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Mormons are verbally taught to assume that.

They are also taught that God won't reveal more truth to you unless you accept the Book of Mormon and truth will be revealed line upon line based on your readiness to receive it.

D&C 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

“All blessings that were ordained for man by the Council of Heaven were on conditions of obedience to the law thereof.”
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith(2007), 164.

• Guidance and answers to prayers if we keep the commandment to “be thou humble” (see D&C 112:10).
  • Protection against the powers of darkness if we follow the prophet (see D&C 21:4–6).
    
    
  • • Knowing the “mysteries of God” if we repent, exercise faith, bring forth good works, and pray continually (see Alma 26:22).
    • Health and treasures of knowledge if we keep the Word of Wisdom (see D&C 89:18–21).
      • Having the “windows of heaven” opened to us if we keep the law of tithing (see Malachi 3:10).
        
        
      • • Eternal life if we keep all the commandments and endure to the end (see D&C 14:7).
        Line upon Line: D&C 130:20–21 - New Era Oct. 2010 - new-era
  • If a Mormon has no assurance that Mormonism is true, it is his own fault for being the disobedient.

IF
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Moroni 10:4

Doctrine and Covenants 84
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him...


49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me...

74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.

Of course, Mormons redefined the word damned.

Jane_Doe said:

Is this entire post not you pushing your views?

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Well, yes, Jane, in a more general sense all of my posts reflect my beliefs, as I'm the one typing them.

If you read a little more carefully, however, you will notice that I am not telling Mormons or anyone what they should be doing, and certainly not saying that I should be listened to because I personally have the answers or whatever. Most of that post is about the value in relying on the fathers, as they have already dealt with the claims of Mormonism hundreds of years before Mormonism even existed, so we already have these sources from which we can surmise the Christian response to such things when they arise (in 1830, or 385, or whenever).

This an example of you doing that very thing.

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My objection, however, is not that Mormons feel that I am making too strong a case or 'pushing my beliefs' on others (though that's an odd way to put it; since when is stating your beliefs equivalent to forcing them on others? You're on the internet; you can choose to not read or interact with things or people you don't want to). That's what I'd expect you guys to think, since I am after all very much against your religion and the continued claims of its believers that it is Christianity, and don't mince words concerning that. It's that Mormon posters on this website confuse the argument being made against what they believe and advocate with the person making it, and hence make their replies inappropriately personal. "Jeremy claims that the early Church is against Mormonism on account of XYZ (scriptural and/or patristic references)" is an accurate summation of what I have posted; "Jeremy is saying everyone should listen to him instead of the Holy Spirit" (as though I've confused myself with St. Athanasius, St. Jerome, etc., when the entire point of referring to them is to not argue from myself, but to show what is Christian belief since the early days) or "Jeremy doesn't believe in praying to God" are inaccurate summations, and furthermore inappropriately personal. If I argue from particular sources, why not address what they say, rather than the fact that I am the one quoting them?