Mary

W2L · May 13, 2017

Arsenios said:
Thank-you, my Brother...

The Orthodox Communion of the Faithful lives in a vast prayer tradition spanning two thousand years. Paul was not kidding when he instructed the faithful to be praying without ceasing. The acquisition of prayer is one of the most basic and fundamental features of discipleship in Christ, and is at the same time the most exalted one, giving us from St. John the Theologian the Book of Revelation, wherein he reports that he was "in the Spirit" receiving this revelation from Christ...

So that when your progress in the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His disciples, there can come a point where prayer becomes all consuming, wherein the Apostles appointed Deacons to serve the Church so that they could continue uninterrupted in prayer for the faithful... How prayer works is a great mystery taking many forms... The entry into one's "prayer closet" is the isolation of self from the world for the sake of union in prayer with Christ... That is the meaning of eternal life - eg of "...knowing the one true God and His Son, Jesus Christ...", where that "knowing" means "union with" in a profoundly deep manner, as is does in an infinitely more shallow manner when "Adam knew Eve"...

Yet prayer is the basis of a Spiritual life, being an essential feature of repentance, and its acquisition in the sense of knowing (union with) God is Life Eternal itself...

It is a very big deal...

Arsenios

This is futile, isnt it? We both know it. So whats the point? G'night friend.

Arsenios · May 14, 2017

W2L said:
Well for starters i dont ask dead people to pray for me.
Thats not what the bible teaches us.

The Bible teaches Life Eternal:

And whosoever is living and believing in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?

So how can the Mother of Life be dead as you imply?

Arsenios

Arsenios · May 14, 2017

W2L said:
This is futile, isnt it? We both know it. So whats the point? G'night friend.

We will not pursuade each other, but perhaps we can be friends who disagree?

G'night!

A.

W2L · May 14, 2017

Arsenios said:
The Bible teaches Life Eternal:

And whosoever is living and believing in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?

So how can the Mother of Life be dead as you imply?

Arsenios

The term "dead people" refers to people who have died. Their eternal fate is irrelevant to what i was saying.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

W2L · May 14, 2017

Arsenios said:
We will not pursuade each other, but perhaps we can be friends who disagree?

G'night!

A.

Perhaps.

PeaceB · May 14, 2017

Saint Beloved said:
Blergh I'm even more confused now.
My whole lofe I've been told one way which was fine now conflictions everywhere and fear! Hmm that's interesting ! Light bulb does protestantism reduce fear of God because we don't need to do anything but believe? But the puritans had fear so ugh I dunno anymore. I'm not an intellectual I can't discern anything for myself I can't trust any mortal.

If you were Satan and you wanted to tempt people to commit sin, would you try to deceive them into believing that if they sin they will not be punished for it?

Let's see what Satan did before:

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.7

And let's see what the New Testament has to say:

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Alithis · May 14, 2017

hengesthorsa said:
If you mean the Roman Catholic Church, it's hard to see how they invented these things solo when the Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian Orthodox also venerate Mary.

Yeah..false doctrine spreads like cancer

PeaceB · May 14, 2017

throughfireytrial said:
And this is to prove Mary is without sin? David found favor with God...I Samuel 13:14
Daniel was called highly esteemed by the angel of the Lord...Daniel 9:23, 10:11 and 10:19
Are they also without sin.
It is one thing to be highly esteemed and full of faith in God...which credits us with righteousness...it is quite another to then say such a person has no sinful nature or is without sin!

Why don't you show me where the Bible says "Mary, Mother of God, committed sin"? Chapter and verse. Your assertions that Mary committed sin are also based on an implicit reading of Scripture.

And why don't you show me proof that the New Testament consists of 27 inspired books, since you reject Sacred Tradition.

I provided you with Scripture. You don't like my interpretation of it. You provided me with Scripture. I don't like your interpretation of it. You see how that works?

For the record, the declaration concerning Mary leading a sinless life does not rest solely on the verses I presented. The declaration is based on Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. You only accept the first, and that is what I provided you with. If you want a more nuanced and detailed view of what the Catholic Church teaches concerning this matter, you can use Google to find it. You have not proved that Mary sinned, and I see no reason to spend a huge amount of time defending my position when you have not offered a single verse that proves that Mary sinned. If you want to assert that Mary sinned, you prove it to me. Otherwise we can agree to disagree concerning the matter.

archer75 · May 14, 2017

Saint Beloved said:
So if the pope is infallible when he's teaching because the holy spirit won't let him be in error and one of them or several of them were against us having the bible in our own languages to get to know Jesus for ourselves that to me feels like ripping away my older brother whom I've come to love because I wouldn't have that love if I didn't have the bible that comforts me.

If I became catholic would I have to give my bible up? To be authentic in my humiliation and fear dependent on community and obedient to apostolic authority?

My family would freak out there's no way I could attend mass or have pictures and rosaries and crosses in the house.

You definitely wouldn't have to give up your Bible. A lot of cradle Catholics don't know the Bible that well, and the CC recognizes this as a big problem.

I'm not telling you to become RC - but if someone with your familiarity with the Bible did, they'd probably be considered a huge blessing to your new RC friends and acquaintances because they know the Bible well (and I'm sure for other reasons).

And for the record, private devotional stuff is up to each person - I'm pretty sure no one is required to say the Rosary.

archer75 · May 14, 2017

Double post.

throughfiierytrial · May 14, 2017

PeaceB said:
Why don't you show me where the Bible says "Mary, Mother of God, committed sin"? Chapter and verse. Your assertions that Mary committed sin are also based on an implicit reading of Scripture.

And why don't you show me proof that the New Testament consists of 27 inspired books, since you reject Sacred Tradition.

I provided you with Scripture. You don't like my interpretation of it. You provided me with Scripture. I don't like your interpretation of it. You see how that works?

For the record, the declaration concerning Mary leading a sinless life does not rest solely on the verses I presented. The declaration is based on Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. You only accept the first, and that is what I provided you with. If you want a more nuanced and detailed view of what the Catholic Church teaches concerning this matter, you can use Google to find it. You have not proved that Mary sinned, and I see no reason to spend a huge amount of time defending my position when you have not offered a single verse that proves that Mary sinned. If you want to assert that Mary sinned, you prove it to me. Otherwise we can agree to disagree concerning the matter.

Well this is silly reasoning...prove Mary sinned...shall I have to prove any other person in the Bible sinned as well? No, that is understood from the Genesis and Romans passages. According to Romans...
Romans 5:12:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

...so unless you are claiming Mary is not part of the human mortal race she sinned.

Greyy · May 14, 2017

throughfireytrial said:
And this is to prove Mary is without sin? David found favor with God...I Samuel 13:14
Daniel was called highly esteemed by the angel of the Lord...Daniel 9:23, 10:11 and 10:19
Are they also without sin.
It is one thing to be highly esteemed and full of faith in God...which credits us with righteousness...it is quite another to then say such a person has no sinful nature or is without sin!

To be full of grace requires the absence of sin.

Greyy · May 14, 2017

W2L said:
Thank you. So we have concluded that praying to Mary is not the same as asking a living person to pray for you. This contradicts what Catholics have said on this thread.

I don't remember coming to that conclusion.

Mary isn't dead.

Saint Beloved · May 14, 2017

PeaceB said:
If you were Satan and you wanted to tempt people to commit sin, would you try to deceive them into believing that if they sin they will not be punished for it?

Let's see what Satan did before:

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.7

And let's see what the New Testament has to say:

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Satan could cheat me from Heaven by promoting the divine feminine and paganistic rituals disguised as christian practise though and I could fall for it like many do even the Jews did for some things especially aesthetically

Saint Beloved · May 14, 2017

I've been watching some YouTube videos by Fr Matt Hartley on catholic 101 any other recommendations?

Victory-N-Christ · May 14, 2017

Arsenios said:
So they did not die? Or one did and one did not? Yet both appeared to John and Peter and Iakovos, yes?

So is our God the God of the Living? Or of the dead?

I pray to him daily - He is the Patron Saint of our Church...

She is the Blessed Virgin, no question, and the Mother of our Lord... Elizabeth speaking in the Holy Spirit said so and it was recorded in Holy Writ, remember?

That is one place where the Latin Church and the Orthodox Communion of Churches disagree. The Latins hold that She was given a special dispensation of Grace at Her conception that none of the rest of us are ever given, and this we deny. Her virtuous life in our understanding is a consequence of Her very Person, and not of special Grace apart from us all. We commemorate Her Dormition, whereas the Latins commemorate, on the same Feast Day, Her Assumption. For us, her repose is dogmatically essential... For the Latins, her death is an optional belief, and her assumption is dogmatically essential...

You are right, she is absolutely a natural woman like none you have ever encountered, for She is the Mother of our Lord... No small matter...

She was pronounced, at age 14 (+ or -) graced of God, and blessed among women, to the degree that she conceived in Her womb Her own Creator and Lord... No special gifts, you say???

Scripture does not record her repose, but the Church's Holy Tradition sure does... The Apostle Thomas was in India and late again, as he was before, to Her burial, and when he finally arrived, he asked to see her body to say good-bye... There was no body in the grave, but only her belt/cinch... That belt can be found on Mt Athos to this day. There are no primary relics of Her...

Arsenios

Did Mary have special gifts of healing,raising the dead,casting out demons,walking on water,forgiving sins,being foretold as the Lamb of God?Look I'm not interested in bashing Mary or Elijah or Moses okay? All I'm saying is in my opinion and from what I've understood from scripture the only Mediator between the Father and humankind is Jesus.There was only One savior foretold and He was crucified and then resurrected and then ascended .Moses ,Elijah,Mary were not the Messiah.But it's no skin off my nose if folk want to pray to a stump in the middle of a Bavarian forest.I choose Jesus. Amen.

Victory-N-Christ · May 14, 2017

The only way to salvation is through Jesus.Point blank.Period. The only one I pray to is the Father through His son.I have never prayed to Mary or any other Saint.They didn't die for me.They can't save me.

Saint Beloved · May 14, 2017

hengesthorsa said:
You definitely wouldn't have to give up your Bible. A lot of cradle Catholics don't know the Bible that well, and the CC recognizes this as a big problem.

I'm not telling you to become RC - but if someone with your familiarity with the Bible did, they'd probably be considered a huge blessing to your new RC friends and acquaintances because they know the Bible well (and I'm sure for other reasons).

And for the record, private devotional stuff is up to each person - I'm pretty sure no one is required to say the Rosary.

I'm not as familiar with the Bible as I should be but thanks for the encouragement!

Rhamiel · May 14, 2017

This thread tests the limits of my charity

Victory-N-Christ · May 14, 2017

Rhamiel said:
This thread tests the limits of my charity

Can I inquire why without coming across as sarcastic?

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